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and from a moderator! *gasp* the scandal!

it’s sort of sad, because 5e would be a pretty good system for DL I think.
 
it’s sort of sad, because 5e would be a pretty good system for DL I think.

everybody sees this as confirmation of no 5th edition Dragonlance, but it occurs the opposite might be true - WoTC might be planning to release their Dragonlance game and the reason the didn't want the novels published is they want to avoid any "controversy" or backlash from certain groups affecting the sales of that release
 
I just wanted 5e Dragonlance. :sad:

The last Dragonlance book I read was Dragons of the Dwarven Depths. It basically covers the period of time from the flight from Pax Tharkas to the refugees reaching Thorbardin (DL-3 thru DL-4). It was nice to revisit the Companions, although they did feel a bit off because of how many years had passed.

One bit that really threw me was a section where Tanis comes up on Riverwind bathing in the river. I recall the section going into quite a bit of detail of the manly form of Riverwind and Tanis gazing upon him. I started wondering if this was going to turn into Tanis/Riverwind slash.

It wasn't as bad as in the animated movie where Laurana suddenly frenched Elistan. Somehow I never recalled that section in the book.
 
If Wotc was worried about the new novels not being inclusive or diverse enough why not just do some new novels with another other willing to write them. Note I am not putting the blame on either author. As lets face it given how political correct everything is now a series written in the 1980s was going to have some elements that would now be considered problematic by some in the hobby.

The problem is then how much does one remove before it is no longer Dragonlance in name only. Tanis is going to be an issue because he is born of two parents and half elven and human. I actually found it gave more meaning to the character trapped between two worlds and accepted by neither. Yet his character was written poorly when it came to love interests. Then one has three races that are now considered problematic Kender, Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnonmes. I can understand the Gully Dwarves even they bothered me as a concept when reading the novels initially. While Kender are annoying what the hell is problematic about Tinker Gnomes they like building stuff.

So if we can believe W & H how many times can an author rewrite something before enough is enough. Somewhere somehow someone will find something problematic no matter. I rather receive a good well written story then one that is poorly written yet has every checkbox on a specific narrow list ticked off.
 
I hope both authors win their lawsuit.

If you think DragonLance hasn't aged well, try Conan, Fafhrd, or Elric. Don't even pick up a Horseclans or Gor novel if you think DL has issues. Very few of the fantasy series have evolved well from their beginnings although I think Shannara by Terry Brooks has done exceedingly well in transitioning. Not my words from another poster on another forum. I agree with poster. Just only read novels from 2015 and later. While we have room for improvement then don't expect to read any of the older classics. Or watch any older movies or TV shows for that matter.
 
everybody sees this as confirmation of no 5th edition Dragonlance, but it occurs the opposite might be true - WoTC might be planning to release their Dragonlance game and the reason the didn't want the novels published is they want to avoid any "controversy" or backlash from certain groups affecting the sales of that release

dont ruin my dreams of mythic dragons of Samhain’s Elevensies!
 
If Wotc was worried about the new novels not being inclusive or diverse enough why not just do some new novels with another other willing to write them. Note I am not putting the blame on either author. As lets face it given how political correct everything is now a series written in the 1980s was going to have some elements that would now be considered problematic by some in the hobby.

The problem is then how much does one remove before it is no longer Dragonlance in name only. Tanis is going to be an issue because he is born of two parents and half elven and human. I actually found it gave more meaning to the character trapped between two worlds and accepted by neither. Yet his character was written poorly when it came to love interests. Then one has three races that are now considered problematic Kender, Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnonmes. I can understand the Gully Dwarves even they bothered me as a concept when reading the novels initially. While Kender are annoying what the hell is problematic about Tinker Gnomes they like building stuff.

So if we can believe W & H how many times can an author rewrite something before enough is enough. Somewhere somehow someone will find something problematic no matter. I rather receive a good well written story then one that is poorly written yet has every checkbox on a specific narrow list ticked off.

My thoughts exactly. If you write a piece of media for mass consumption, odds are that someone somewhere at some time will find it upsetting for reasons that might not have anything to do with the actual content of the work.

Something tells me that the political correctness angle is really just a cover story and the truth behind the public facade is that either WoTC no longer wished to pay W&H what they had originally agreed or Nic Kelman wanted to kill the project so he could "clear the runway" for his own pet project. Usually once you peel back they layers of political excuses, you find either money or petty corporate politics.
 
Jesus cynics. I think I know the American legal system well enough to comment, I've literally read most of GURPS: Cops.
Reading is no substitute for real-world experience. I've used the justice system rules in Villains & Vigilantes.
I hope both authors win their lawsuit.

If you think DragonLance hasn't aged well, try Conan, Fafhrd, or Elric. Don't even pick up a Horseclans or Gor novel if you think DL has issues. Very few of the fantasy series have evolved well from their beginnings although I think Shannara by Terry Brooks has done exceedingly well in transitioning. Not my words from another poster on another forum. I agree with poster. Just only read novels from 2015 and later. While we have room for improvement then don't expect to read any of the older classics. Or watch any older movies or TV shows for that matter.
Once again, we aren't really interested in discussing what books are and aren't problematic here.
 
Something tells me that the political correctness angle is really just a cover story and the truth behind the public facade is that either WoTC didn't want to pay W&H any longer or Nic Kelman wanted to kill the project so he could "clear the runway" for a friend's pet project. Usually once you peel back they layers of political excuses, you find either money or petty corporate politics.

It's definitely looking like this at the moment. The legal document mentions that WotC was having negotiations with PRH behind Weis&Hickman's back.
 
Honestly though I am not sure how Wotc can come out looking good whatever the final judgement is on the lawsuit.
 
Maybe they don’t care?

They probably don't yet unlike the old days with no internet they could get away with bad behavior and not many in the community would really know about it. Either way it will still cause them some PR headaches.
 
The sad thing is that Weis and Hickman's names aren't enough to allow them to create their own new setting and draw the Dragon Lance fans to it. It says something about the power of brand names and brand loyalty. If I were them I'd probably write the most contentious thing I could with the serial numbers filed off. Tanis half elven is now Tannur Fey Blood and Fizban is now Gandalgarath the generic. And I'd get the rumour mill going that it's the novel WotC didn't dare to publish.
 
The sad thing is that Weis and Hickman's names aren't enough to allow them to create their own new setting and draw the Dragon Lance fans to it. It says something about the power of brand names and brand loyalty. If I were them I'd probably write the most contentious thing I could with the serial numbers filed off. Tanis half elven is now Tannur Fey Blood and Fizban is now Gandalgarath the generic. And I'd get the rumour mill going that it's the novel WotC didn't dare to publish.

I think if they put out a setting people would definitely be drawn to it (I mean they didn't just do Dragonlance, they had stuff like Darksword (which had its own RPG)---I knew a lot of people who never read Dragonlance who loved Darksword. And I am sure plenty of folks out there would be happy to have Weis and Hickman use their system for something. I think the issue is Dragonlance has a big following and they already put a lot of work into the project so there is just unpaid effort on their part if what they say in the court doc is true.
 
The sad thing is that Weis and Hickman's names aren't enough to allow them to create their own new setting and draw the Dragon Lance fans to it. It says something about the power of brand names and brand loyalty. If I were them I'd probably write the most contentious thing I could with the serial numbers filed off. Tanis half elven is now Tannur Fey Blood and Fizban is now Gandalgarath the generic. And I'd get the rumour mill going that it's the novel WotC didn't dare to publish.

They have done this before. They had several novel series where people followed them.

* The Darksword Trilogy
* The Deathgate Cycle
* The Rose of the Prophet

(Deathgate even had "Zifnab".)
 
I kind of liked Darksword. But I had mixed feelings about the last book in the trilogy. In retrospect, it made sense, but it fundamentally altered things. And Darksword is even more tied to its original trilogy's characters and storyline than Dragonlance is. I never checked out the fourth book follow up that was done years and years later.

I read Rose of the Prophet. I remember almost nothing about it. I didn't really enjoy it. I read it and pretty much haven't thought of it much since.

I never got into the Deathgate Cycle. My partner read a few books of it. I asked him to describe it once. He described it as a Weis and Hickman book where characters exist and things happen. He wasn't impressed, and just read it to be reading something.
 
I kind of liked Darksword. But I had mixed feelings about the last book in the trilogy. In retrospect, it made sense, but it fundamentally altered things. And Darksword is even more tied to its original trilogy's characters and storyline than Dragonlance is. I never checked out the fourth book follow up that was done years and years later.

I read Rose of the Prophet. I remember almost nothing about it. I didn't really enjoy it. I read it and pretty much haven't thought of it much since.

I never got into the Deathgate Cycle. My partner read a few books of it. I asked him to describe it once. He described it as a Weis and Hickman book where characters exist and things happen. He wasn't impressed, and just read it to be reading something.

I completely forgot about the Rose of the Prophet. I remember liking it but can't recall any of the details except for vague impressions (read it when it came out)
 
I'm the first person to remind people I'm not a lawyer. I literally only understand American law better than most people because, unlike most people, I'm willing to understand it better.

80% of the law is accepting "it literally means what it literally says" and the other 20% of it is Freakonomics.
 
They have done this before. They had several novel series where people followed them.

* The Darksword Trilogy
* The Deathgate Cycle
* The Rose of the Prophet

(Deathgate even had "Zifnab".)

Sure, but the point is that Deathgate in particular is an attempt to create a Dragon Lance like setting that they own and aren't getting jerked around on. And while I'm sure it did okay, it didn't do as well as Dragonlance.
 
I completely forgot about the Rose of the Prophet. I remember liking it but can't recall any of the details except for vague impressions (read it when it came out)

I read their Souls trilogy for Dragonlance, and recall very little. I remember Laurana (my favorite Dragonlance character) getting some decent scenes and a pretty epic send off, only to be revealed that it was all for nothing because it was all engineered by Takhisis who was taking revenge on Laurana for the Golden General days as well as getting rid of one of the MegaDragons as a two-fer. It wasn't as bad as Tanis getting stabbed in the back by a no-name in order to save worthless ass Steel Brightblade, but it was still a kick in the gut.

I remember Goldmoon getting punked by Takhisis, and having it revealed that when Goldmoon went to the spiritual powers of the Fifth Age, she was REALLY worshipping Takhisis and channelling her power. Then Goldmoon told her "FU!" and died, which didn't seem to be the Dark Queen's intent, and that managed to feel a bit more satisfying.

Throughout there was Mina, who came across as a Super Sue. I think the later novels reveal she was a god with amnesia or some shit. But in Souls she's just inexplicably bad ass in the setting and it comes across stupid.

And Takhisis got killed by Alhana and Porthios's(?) kid who I forget the name of. I loathed him about as much as Steel. He was thoroughly unlikeable. Then the gods killed him, because can't kill gods. Sucks to be him. And then Paladine became a mortal bishonen elf to keep balance and stuff, and because he's a huge hypocrite about mortality.

Tanis's kid and his secret Kagonesti wife (whose name also excapes me right now) managed to get away from Qualinesti before it was wiped out. They were barely utilized at all, which is sad because they were pretty likeable and interesting.

And then in the second or third book, they introduce the protagonists. I honestly don't recall the characters appearing in book one. They just popped up almost without introduction in book two. I think one was named Gerard, and he was dull but OK. The other one was a woman, who I don't recall the name of because she was a total wet dishrag who just did whatever.

The Souls trilogy wasn't like Summer Flame which felt like W&H upending the table and scattering all the pieces before walking away. It just kind of felt like.. WTF in a bad and boring way.
 
Throughout there was Mina, who came across as a Super Sue. I think the later novels reveal she was a god with amnesia or some shit. But in Souls she's just inexplicably bad ass in the setting and it comes across stupid.

Try it from the point of view of those who'd been following Mina since her appearance in the Fifth Age line. She basically jumped straight from Point A to what her creator (Steve Miller) had envisioned as the bad end to her character arc when she showed up in Dragons of a Fallen Sun. (Making her a godling came later and was a complete surprise to him when I told him.)

But from the point of view of a Fifth Age fan, the War of Souls was a mess, even if Hickman seemed to try to do some stuff in the third book to pull it out of the 'everything from the Fifth Age is Horribly EEEEVIL and Badwrongfun!' that peaked in the second. The post-WoS game material apparently did more to try and salvage the parts of the Fifth Age that were left, but the War of Souls left such a bad taste in my mouth I couldn't appreciate the foundation they had to build on. I also started delving deeper into the foundations of DL and realizing 'OK, what I loved about this setting is either a) superficial (art and graphic design), b) material that's been largely superseded (the old game stuff, the Fifth Age), or c) stuff I was bringing to it myself. No point trying to keep building on a flawed foundation; better to take inspiration and do my own thing with a sounder base and clearer vision.'
 
yeah, that ENWorld thread was....something else

I posted near the very start, kept up with it until the mid-30s … then checked back in later today and saw it had grown to nearly 400 posts. I think I'm going to stay out of that one ...
 
Sure, but the point is that Deathgate in particular is an attempt to create a Dragon Lance like setting that they own and aren't getting jerked around on. And while I'm sure it did okay, it didn't do as well as Dragonlance.

The only thing I seem to recall about death gate was it had sheet music at the end of one of the books if I recall (I do remember being impressed by that, I thought that was pretty cool).
 
My thoughts exactly. If you write a piece of media for mass consumption, odds are that someone somewhere at some time will find it upsetting for reasons that might not have anything to do with the actual content of the work.
And that person is well allowed to not read it:tongue:.

I just wonder how the hell they thought they were going to get away with it without some legal repercussions.
You assume that they thought about consequences:thumbsup:?
I hope both authors win their lawsuit.

If you think DragonLance hasn't aged well, try Conan, Fafhrd, or Elric. Don't even pick up a Horseclans or Gor novel if you think DL has issues. Very few of the fantasy series have evolved well from their beginnings although I think Shannara by Terry Brooks has done exceedingly well in transitioning. Not my words from another poster on another forum. I agree with poster. Just only read novels from 2015 and later. While we have room for improvement then don't expect to read any of the older classics. Or watch any older movies or TV shows for that matter.
This reminds me I have to update my World of Gor thread. Is that why you posted it:shade:?

I think if they put out a setting people would definitely be drawn to it (I mean they didn't just do Dragonlance, they had stuff like Darksword (which had its own RPG)---I knew a lot of people who never read Dragonlance who loved Darksword. And I am sure plenty of folks out there would be happy to have Weis and Hickman use their system for something. I think the issue is Dragonlance has a big following and they already put a lot of work into the project so there is just unpaid effort on their part if what they say in the court doc is true.
I'd write them a custom system, if they needed it. And I'm not even much of a Dragonlance fan, I just hate it when corporations do that kind of stuff:grin:!
 
I just got done browsing the ENworld thread.

FUCKING CHRIST that place it turning into RPG.net 2.0.

Logged out, and now I'm never going back.

Same here I barely went before and just rather spend most of my time here and sometimes on the rpgsite.
 
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