Dragonraid (1984) Christian fantasy RPG

[Voros]

Not sure if this intrudes on the no-politics rule but I'm a bit fascinated by the old (1984) Christian RPG Dragonraid. It was created by Dick Wulf as a Protestant Christian alternative to D&D. Apparently they received a lot of blowback for even trying such a thing during the Satanic Panic even though the game is overtly Christian and includes reciting passages from the Bible as a mechanic!



There's a review of it here. There's also a even-handed review of it on rpgnet although their reviews are down currently as they transfer to Xenoforo, I assume this link will work soon. I like the idea of a mechanic based on reciting poetry or a literary passage and it sounds like the assets are solid.

They are working on a second edition and have a new website here. Will there be Dragonraid edition wars?

I even tried to order a copy of the original set from them out of curiosity but the shipping was far too expensive to Canada so they kindly refunded my payment. Hope to get my dirty mitts on it one day.

Has anyone seen this game in the wild?

 

[stonetoflesh]

I haven't seen it, but I share your strange fascination with this game! I've been curious about it for years (not curious enough to shell out $35 + S&H!), maybe because I want to see if a "Christian RPG" is as bland as "Christian metal." (I was one of those kids in the 80s whose well-meaning-but-misinformed Christian parents forbade me from playing D&D, listening to heavy metal, and other "occult" things. (They allowed other secular RPGs, and I secretly played D&D and listened to heavy metal anyway...))

Sadly, I no longer have a cassette player (I think my last one died in the late 90s?), so I'll miss out on the instructional audio component.

Unfortunately, I also have an irrational, nails-on-the-chalkboard reaction to written compound nouns that capitalize each component noun in the word. From the website alone, it appears the DragonRaid team are big fans of this practice: LightRaider, WordRune, EdenAgain, StarLots, etc. Weird, I know, but what can I say?

If you get the game, I'd happily join your play-by-post campaign here. I even promise not to cheat when it comes to memorizing my WordRunes!

 

[Dumarest]

Seen it? I have a copy tucked away in a bedroom closet. Got it somewhat used out of sheer curiosity. Do you want it?

 

[Skarg]

Browsing their site, it seems clear that they view the main purpose of the game to make players "more mature" Christians, and that the RPG part is a means (attracting teenage-maturity-level Chrisitans to the shiny RPG) to an end (becoming someone with no need for an RPG because their Christianity is now "mature").

Quite a curiosity. I bet the cassette is entertaining...

 

[Endless Flight]

"Adventure Learning System"? That doesn't sound like an RPG to me. It sounds more like using the trappings of an RPG as a study aid. I've never read it.

 

[Silverlion]

I've owned it. Gorgeous black and white art, neat mechanics. Though the setting could use some tweaking. (Edenagain* is a planet that is where humans were also created, but the non-Christian and monstrous survivors of other worlds were exiled to it. So Goblins, Giants--and they are turned essentially demonic in their sin.) Dragons ARE true demons and have enslaved humankind, but for a few Twiceborn (Christians, different mythos a bit.) Twiceborn have a lot of supernatural oomph in their classes too (some have larger than normal talking animal friends, some could shapeshift, etc.)

Reciting bible passages gives minor miracle boons--spell like in 1E. Though last I heard the owners were dedicated to making it less miraculous/magical though which bothered me. God can just send light, it doesn't need to help you find a torch. And it seemed they wanted to diminish the direct influence of God on the world in 2E. Though that's been in the works longer than a lot of people 40 page D&D1E house rules. Mind you sin in the setting is a magical force. Dragons are particularly nasty with their powers. Twiceborn go from their protected kingdom to the outside world to free dragon-slaves, humans held in dragons thrall.

*It is notable that Edenagain has had a human spacecraft crashland with of COURSE a copy of the Christian bible...as part of the backstory.


Neat system, gorgeous art. It's meant to teach the perils of listening to sinners, and well the adventures were railroady. But it was just a neat thing at the time I ran into it.

Is it for gamers? Not really. Is it terrible? In many ways surprisingly not. In others? Well, I'll let you be the judge. I don't own a copy now. (I've given away or sent copies to other people including a Christian-furry artist friend once.)

Note: I am a Christian gamer, and even I recognize it has flaws. But nothing that couldn't be fixed by an actual gamer helming the project.
Like making it clear that Giants, goblins, etc are essentially minor demons and can't be forgiven or talked down. Though I'd probably make it possible to be tricked. As tricking evil against itself should be possible.

I've some personal issues with the theology of the gamesomewhat. (I think humanity is given innumerable chances to pick the right path and be forgiven--and suspect that many "Christians" will be surprised who they find in the afterlife with them. (Wherever they end up.) thought it is nice that in one of the several pre-written adventures if you die you DO run into arguing goblins--arguing who should take the comfortable seat (friendly bickering) and that these goblins are NOT the kind you're familiar with on the homeworld.

 

[Dumarest]

I hear Voros is going to post a "Let's Read DragonRaid by Dick Wulf" thread soon.

 

[Dumarest]

"Adventure Learning System"? That doesn't sound like an RPG to me. It sounds more like using the trappings of an RPG as a study aid. I've never read it.

I seem to recall that the "Adventure Learning System" is just the name they give the mechanics, as one might refer to a D&D game as "the d20 System."

 

[The Butcher]

I remember the game being described in a letter in Ye Olde Dragon magazine Forum (late 100s or early 200s). Interesting curiosity.

Christian-furry artist

I am beyond perplexed. I may have lost a few points of SAN.

 

[Bunch]

I had a chance to pick this up this summer at a thrift store but passed. I'm trying to cut back on likely never to be used purchases.

 

[spittingimage]

I am beyond perplexed. I may have lost a few points of SAN.

My girlfriend knows some furries and every time the subject comes up she tries to tell me that they're not all erotic artists and that's generally where I stop her because she's made the mistake of assuming I want to know more about this topic when I'd actually quite like to know less.

 

[Silverlion]

I am beyond perplexed. I may have lost a few points of SAN.

Got let go of the assumptions my friend. I like furry art (PG-13), I'm a Christian and a gamer. I've drawn furries, technically (many of them actually superheroes). I've played Justifiers and liked it! (Though the cover art on one book is YIKES) The friend I'm talking about does art that I seem to recall being PG-13 art for the most part (that may have changed I've not talked to them in a while.) Edit: My poetry? That which isn't dark though, some of is R rated...at least. I'm human in my failings. Such happens.

I'm neither crazy (thinking myself a lion), nor do I draw anything that isn't usually PG. Not am I hugely talented artist. I walked away from the last Christian furry organization because of its politics, which I won't bring up here, suffice to say I am a lot more here to spread love and kindness than run around being all judgy.

 

[The Butcher]

Got let go of the assumptions my friend. I like furry art (PG-13), I'm a Christian and a gamer. I've drawn furries, technically (many of them actually superheroes). I've played Justifiers and liked it! (Though the cover art on one book is YIKES) The friend I'm talking about does art that I seem to recall being PG-13 art for the most part (that may have changed I've not talked to them in a while.) Edit: My poetry? That which isn't dark though, some of is R rated...at least. I'm human in my failings. Such happens.

I'm neither crazy (thinking myself a lion), nor do I draw anything that isn't usually PG. Not am I hugely talented artist. I walked away from the last Christian furry organization because of its politics, which I won't bring up here, suffice to say I am a lot more here to spread love and kindness than run around being all judgy.

I get being a Christian and a furry.

But the hyphen there made me think there was a, um, thematic overlap going on there.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

As I recall, this is the game Monte Cook once cited somewhere as his inspiration for the Prestige Classes of 3rd edition D&D. Am I off-base?

 

[Silverlion]

I get being a Christian and a furry.

But the hyphen there made me think there was a, um, thematic overlap going on there.

Surprisingly some. They often render Christ as either a lamb or a lion humanoid. Note: All the art in that vein that's legitimately Christian in representation is G rating. I found a lot yesterday when looking for my friend's contact info again. It's been a while. Amusingly, a friend drew my superhero to the left as a lion superhero and his own (Christian is his heroes name) as a male sheep aka "lamb", and I find it frightening and amusing. Because I'm no way sinless like Christ is supposed to have been. Just trying to be good, kind, loving person. But sinless? HAH. Neither one of us think we're anymore than just trying to follow Christ.

 

[Teyrnon]

"Adventure Learning System"? That doesn't sound like an RPG to me. It sounds more like using the trappings of an RPG as a study aid. I've never read it.

Well, it's been over thirty years since I've had any exposure to Dragonraid but I seem to recall memorizing Bible verses was a major part of playing the game.

 

[Silverlion]

As I recall, this is the game Monte Cook once cited somewhere as his inspiration for the Prestige Classes of 3rd edition D&D. Am I off-base?

Back the threads point. I think BECMI D&D is closer to prestige class origins--I don't know what Cook has said; all I know is that when you get to X level ("Name" level IIRC, Fighters could become Paladins (Lawful), Avengers (Chaotic), or Knights (Neutral) and Neutral Clerics could become Druids. All of which map closely to the idea of prestige classes.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Neutral Clerics could become Druids.

A Christian game conceived at the height of the satanic panic used the name druid for a character option? I'm surprised, seems a bit too pagan to have slipped through.

 

[zweihander]

In Dragonraid, you don't roll saving throws. Jesus rolls to save you.

 

[Dumarest]

In Dragonraid, you don't roll saving throws. Jesus rolls to save you.

Jesus doesn't need to roll. He just saves you.

 

[zweihander]

Jesus doesn't need to roll. He just saves you.

Take 20.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Jesus doesn't need to roll. He just saves you.

A truly Calvinist RPG would be pretty dull, but at least it would be short.

 

[Belle Sorciere]

A truly Calvinist RPG would be pretty dull, but at least it would be short.

Wouldn't predestination mean that the GM just tells you what you do and what happens?

 

[The Butcher]

Wouldn't predestination mean that the GM just tells you what you do and what happens?

Came here to post this! I suppose that would be the ultimate railroad.

 

[Silverlion]

A Christian game conceived at the height of the satanic panic used the name druid for a character option? I'm surprised, seems a bit too pagan to have slipped through.

No, I mentioned that BECMI did. (Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, Immortals D&D)

 

[Shipyard Locked]

No, I mentioned that BECMI did. (Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, Immortals D&D)

Got it, sorry.

Wouldn't predestination mean that the GM just tells you what you do and what happens?

"Alright, now that I'm done creating your characters let me tell you a few good things and bad things that happen to you before you die. Don't worry though, none of it matters, you're all going to win! Except you Armand, you're going to lose and the rest of us will bully you mercilessly in real life forever. Don't look at me like that, you read the rulebook, it was decided before you even got here!"

 

[Simlasa]

I've leaned toward playing 'Christian Fantasy' with LotFP... but by that I mean a quasi-historical setting where, at least on the surface, Christian beliefs are real... there ARE demons and saints and miracles... and angels are fucking scary. Believers fight over the holy relics of martyrs because of their incredible powers. Lots of weirdo heretics/witches to sort out.

 

[Voros]

I Googled Jesus and animals and somehow got this.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

At first, I thought this sounded weird, but then I realized that Christian mythology is already so common in fantasy RPGs that it's hardly a stretch at all.

 

[opaopajr]

Do I wanna smite people with my Gentleness or Self-Control stat!

Honestly though, I've always neen curious about the game, and would gladly unburden a copy from someone in distress. I wonder what I could do with it with pious paragon evangelist characters in other RPGs. In Nomine? D&D? Vampire? Kult? Pendragon seems already a bretheren.

... or I could find a munchkin way to weaponize Joy stat.

 

[Séadna]

A truly Calvinist RPG would be pretty dull, but at least it would be short.

I wonder what that would actually be like Could you get predestination to work in some limited way in an RPG, like for a SciFi time travel situation?

 

[stonetoflesh]

A truly Calvinist RPG would be pretty dull, but at least it would be short.

I don't know about that... The English Puritans were generally Calvinistic in their soteriology, and Solomon Kane was a pretty awesome character!

 

[AsenRG]

Wouldn't predestination mean that the GM just tells you what you do and what happens?

I don't know enough about Calvinism to know how this works. But even if so, isn't that much like playing with certain GMs that aren't even Calvinists?

 

[stonetoflesh]

I don't know enough about Calvinism to know how this works. But even if so, isn't that much like playing with certain GMs that aren't even Calvinists?

I don't think this is the place for soteriological debate, but speaking as one who generally holds to a Reformed confession (LBC 1689), I would say that a "true Calvinist" RPG -- that is, one that accurately reflects Calvinist theology instead of a bunch of straw men -- wouldn't necessarily be any more or less exciting than a "true Arminian" or a "true Lutheran" RPG.

Funny enough, I find pseudo-Catholicism (or pseudo-Anglicanism, I suppose) to be a much more interesting basis for fantasy game religions than any denomination of pseudo-Protestantism, thanks to the abundance of relics, monastic orders, mysticism, rites and rituals (for exorcism and such), etc.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

I don't know about that... The English Puritans were generally Calvinistic in their soteriology, and Solomon Kane was a pretty awesome character!

Fair enough.

By the way, I recognize and like your avatar gnombient. Fun fact, that movie has three James Bond villains in it, but alas they never interact onscreen.

 

[Belle Sorciere]

It wasn't a straw man, it was a joke.

 

[stonetoflesh]

It wasn't a straw man, it was a joke.

Sorry if I came across heavy-handed or ungracious in my reply. Lots of straw men get made about various Calvinist doctrines in the theological world, and sometimes it's hard to tell what's real and what's just poking fun.

 

[Belle Sorciere]

Sorry if I came across heavy-handed or ungracious in my reply. Lots of straw men get made about various Calvinist doctrines in the theological world, and sometimes it's hard to tell what's real and what's just poking fun.

It's cool. I do know predestination is a much more complex topic and I probably could have made it clearer that I was just being facetious.

 

[CRKrueger]

Do I wanna smite people with my Gentleness or Self-Control stat!

Honestly though, I've always neen curious about the game, and would gladly unburden a copy from someone in distress. I wonder what I could do with it with pious paragon evangelist characters in other RPGs. In Nomine? D&D? Vampire? Kult? Pendragon seems already a bretheren.

... or I could find a munchkin way to weaponize Joy stat.

Run an official DragonRaid event at a big convention. Hire a bodyguard.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Funny enough, I find pseudo-Catholicism (or pseudo-Anglicanism, I suppose) to be a much more interesting basis for fantasy game religions than any denomination of pseudo-Protestantism, thanks to the abundance of relics, monastic orders, mysticism, rites and rituals (for exorcism and such), etc.

I think you could do some really interesting stuff with the theological fringers of Protestatanism from around the time of the English Civil War. A group like the Fifth Monarchists or the Ranters could make for a really memorable fictional religion.

And in a postapoc setting they'd make a nice change from yet another group of fictional Amish.