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Trippy

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I’m pretty hyped about the Dune movies, and other paraphernalia like the RPG, myself.

I may be setting myself up for disappointment but I cannot think of a better director than Denis Villleneuve to direct the source material, and the casting is very strong. The comparison to the feeling I had about the Lord of the Rings movies, at the time, is similar and I think there has been a lot of effort behind the scenes to get it right. Villeneuve’s work on Bladerunner 2048 was really strong, not just in the visuals but also in the thematic consistency - he clearly ‘got it’ and I hope the same will be true of the Dune movies.

From a marketing perspective, I think a lot will be riding on them too because they could be the first of a big series of movies, if they are well received. Star Wars won’t be around for a while, and was met with lukewarm reviews and box office I think, so there could be a market for a new major sci-fi franchise potentially. Moreover, Dune has a literary source which may ground the movies a bit more than the topsy-turvey scriptwriting of some other franchises. It’s more complex, but then so was Game of Thrones (at least initially, in the first four seasons or so), so yes, I’m buzzed.
 

Dumarest

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From a marketing perspective, I think a lot will be riding on them too because they could be the first of a big series of movies...
They already have a lot riding on it. They're working on the sequel which covers the 2nd half of Dune, Warner/HBO is doing the prequel TV series, and Funcom has a partnership with Legendary Entertainment to develop Dune games.
 

Dumarest

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(sigh) this retarded trend can't end soon enough
If enough people stop paying to see 'em, they'll stop making 'em. But that day is nowhere in sight judging by the people who go online and say things like "I knew I would hate the new Star Wars movie! The Force Awakens sucked! The Last Jedi sucked! I paid to see The Rise of Skywalker three times and it sucked worse each time!"
 

TristramEvans

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If enough people stop paying to see 'em, they'll stop making 'em. But that day is nowhere in sight judging by the people who go online and say things like "I knew I would hate the new Star Wars movie! The Force Awakens sucked! The Last Jedi sucked! I paid to see The Rise of Skywalker three times and it sucked worse each time!"

I''m not seeing the relationship you're drawing there. New movies sucking doesn't have anything to do with prequels being creatively bankrupt attempts to replace nostalgia/recognition of elements with actually interesting plot develiopments.
 

Dumarest

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I''m not seeing the relationship you're drawing there. New movies sucking doesn't have anything to do with prequels being creatively bankrupt attempts to replace nostalgia/recognition of elements with actually interesting plot develiopments.
They're a business. Creativity has nothing to do with why they do it. The only way to stop them is as I said:
If enough people stop paying to see 'em, they'll stop making 'em.
 

Nobby-W

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I must be the only one here who’s never read the book or seen the Lynch movie.
Well, I suppose folks posting in a Dune thread are going to be somewhat self-selecting.

Having said this, They're both worth a look-in. Dune is regarded as a classic for good reason, and for something published half a century ago it's aged pretty well. It's one of my all-time favourites. If you do read it, it's pretty dense and complex enough to merit re-reading a few times to understand all its intricacies. You may also find googling stuff on the interwebs is helpful.

I haven't read any of the sequels, though, so I can't comment on them. Opinion tends to be sharply divided over the sequels.

The theatrical release of the Lynch film was a clusterfuck, but there's a pretty decent movie struggling to get out. It's very atmospheric and the art direction is fab. I suggest that you watch the Michael Warren re-cut, which is discussed here. There is a lot of expository monologue and dialogue in the film, some of which is a bit obvious, bit overall the film is quite good.
 

TristramEvans

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I must be the only one here who’s never read the book or seen the Lynch movie.

Both are worth it for different reasons.

The book is genuinelly one of the greatest works of fiction of the 20th century, the SciFi equivalent of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy.

The Lynch film is a beautiful trainwreck of misjudgements that is horrifyingly entertaining, especially if you enjoy seeing some serious A-List powerhouse acting talent stumble through an incomprehensible script while wearing ridiculous costumes.
 

TristramEvans

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8eac42a479d4ea4ed62b340f3398b18b.jpg
 

Mankcam

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If enough people stop paying to see 'em, they'll stop making 'em. But that day is nowhere in sight judging by the people who go online and say things like "I knew I would hate the new Star Wars movie! The Force Awakens sucked! The Last Jedi sucked! I paid to see The Rise of Skywalker three times and it sucked worse each time!"
Yeah those guys are just as bad as those fellas who say "I've read all the reviews and made my own mind up, I'm not seeing it!"

:grin:

(That's actual verbatim from a young Millienial hipster character whom I was talking with at the bus stop. He was oblivious to the irony of his statement, heh heh)
 
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PolarBlues

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Also, the National Lampoon "Doon" novel is worth a childish giggle, if only for the glossary at the end and the mock quotations at the start of each chapter.
 

Necrozius

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(sigh) this retarded trend can't end soon enough

Batman > Batman Begins > Gotham > Pennyworth > Movie or show about the founder of Arkham Asylum > Movie or show about the founder of Gotham City in the 18th Century > Medieval Batman > Cave Batman > DinoBatman > Cambrian Batman

Each one more EXXXXTREEEEME than the last!!
 

Dumarest

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Also, the National Lampoon "Doon" novel is worth a childish giggle, if only for the glossary at the end and the mock quotations at the start of each chapter.
Never heard of that one, though I once read Bored of the Rings (written by a couple of the guys who later founded National Lampoon).
ellis-weiner-national-lampoons-doon_1_237d7c25593c27b6a8e3b4a49cec568a.jpg
9ybdwysx2cp01.jpg
 
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TristramEvans

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Batman > Batman Begins > Gotham > Pennyworth > Movie or show about the founder of Arkham Asylum > Movie or show about the founder of Gotham City in the 18th Century > Medieval Batman > Cave Batman > DinoBatman > Cambrian Batman

Each one more EXXXXTREEEEME than the last!!


I would at least watch DinoBatman.

latest
 

Voros

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I am sure Mamoa's Duncan Idaho will be at least more memorable than Richard Jordan's. It's not Jordans fault, but his role in Lynch's movie is 3 seconds at the start to say "Hello, it is me, Dunacan Idaho!" followed by 3 seconds towards the end when he appears to say "Ah, I've been hit, So dies Duncan Idaho".

Yeah I fell in love with Lynch’s demented film and the sheer pointlessness of his character is endlessly amusing to me. Be kinda bummed if they actually develop him as a character at this point.
 

Dumarest

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Yeah I fell in love with Lynch’s demented film and the sheer pointlessness of his character is endlessly amusing to me.
I've never watched the whole movie but I liked what I saw. It was totally funky and inspiring. Loved the wild force fields.
tumblr_lb7f5p9DwV1qe8ze9o1_500.gif
Always loved Sean Young back then (Stripes, Blade Runner Dune, No Way Out); even her voice was hot.
2734e49d52cf01afc24683e51b318c16.jpg
I'd love to play a game set in that world. I liked the first novel but found the second one didn't capture my interest. I might try it again someday.
 

Mankcam

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Lynch's film had a great flavour, certainly a visual feast, but it was also very lackluster and bland at times.
It's a great film, yet it's a terrible film at the same time

I thought it was strange that Lynch turned The Weirding Way into a voice-emulated sonic weapon.
In the book I remember it being more like a very mystical martial arts, highly kick-ass, Bruce Lee could have only achieved a yellow belt in it, that kind of thing.
Spiced up Freman trained in the Weirding Way were enough to take on the Emperor's widely-feared Sardaukar Guards, so it must be like something John Woo would film whilst on Speed. Seeing that in action could be pretty cool in the new film. However, there will be the inevitable Jedi comparisons (ironic, considering Dune was probably one of the influences on Star Wars).

Given the amount of intrigue in Dune, it will likely be well received by those mourning the finale of Game of Thrones.
 
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TristramEvans

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I think the second novel really fails on it's own, because as David Johansen mentioned earlier, it's really just the third act of the original novel. The thing is, the original on it's own is kind of misleading because it embodies the white saviour/messiah myth that Herbert was specifically trying to deconstruct. Society's ultimate reaction to the Nietzschian Superman was to perpetrate horrors in his name. Paul unleashes a wave of mass murder across the galaxi in his name that he has no control over, and the tragedy of the story is that his visions through the spice means he knew it would happen but was powerless to prevent it.

There's two pieces of media that really capture the essence of this in my mind. The first is actually from this year, a recent episode of Rick & Morty where Morty gets a hold of a gem that let's him see every possible future based on the choices he's making. Seeing one future where he (thinks) he ends up with his high schgool crush, he no longer is free to live or experience his life but is trapped making every decision, every movement that will lead to that one probability. This is the only piece of media I've ever seen to actually visually express what's going on in Paul's head in Dune once his prescient powers are awakened by the Spice.

The second piece of media that I associate with Dune & Dune Messiah in particular is the final episode of The Prisoner. Specifically the part where he is crowned as an inspirational figurehead to society as the beloved rebel (this is all allegorical in the show), and they demand a speech, upon which every time he tries to express his opinion starting with "I...", he is immediately drowned out with chants of "I! I! I!" by everyone in the audience. For them, he exists to say or to mean whatever they want him to mean, whatever reinforces their own wants, opinions, and desires. Just as Paul is worshipped as a god by the Fremen, but he is powerless to restrain them from unleashing their bloodlust and vengeance on the galaxy.

This is also why I love God Emperor of Dune the most of all the books, because it's ultimately Paul/Paul II (essentially the same person at this point through Inherited memories) coming up with a solution to this problem. And it's the I, Claudius Solution. The only way the God Emperor can undue the way his existence warped humanity and destroyed it's progress was to be such a horrific and oppressive tyrant that humanity would be forced to forsake him, to "kill their God", in a way that he would be rejected - rather than continue on past death as a figurehead and martyr that would forever constrain humanity from growing, until entropy ultimately led to species death. And the sacrifice he makes in order to accomplish this is to consign himself to a perpetual hell, trapped as an aware consciousness within the sandworms that can never again influence, commicate with, or affect the world around him.

The story is epic and tragic in that way that only something that digs so deeply into the heart of one aspect of human nature could ever be.

Alas I have no idea what was going on with books 5 and 6, I suspect that whatever revalations of Herbert's true message or intentions for that second trilogy are forever lost to us because his kid wanted to turn it into a Terminator-pastiche scifi adventure series.

Anyways, what was I saying?

Oh yeah, Dune Messiah. I think it's the key or cypher to understanding the first book, (IIRC it's not even revealed in Dune that the reason Paul ended up fulfilling Fremen prophecies was because the Bene Gesserit, aeons ago, had gone around the universe spreading prophecies to underdeveloped cultures so at some point in the future they could introduce a messiah of their own creation throufgh selective breeding in order to utterly control the mind and souls of the vast majority of the population of humanity), but doesn't work as well as a "sequel", especially for anyone wanting "More Dune".
 

TristramEvans

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And as for Lynch's Dune, I love it for it's grandiose flaws. It's like if they had hired Wes Anderson to direct Lord of the Rings. Everything is so wrong, yet it tries so hard, and is so bizarrely anti-Hollywood blockbuster because the guy who dreamed up Eraserhead and Mulholland Falls was given a crazy budget to adapt exactly the opposite of any kind of story he could tell. It's the Avengers by Tim Burton, a Romantic Comedy by Rob Zombie, it's the Coen Brothers doing Masters of the Universe.

 

Trippy

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Anybody else think the story arc in Game of Thrones is basically lifted from Dune?
 

TristramEvans

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Anybody else think the story arc in Game of Thrones is basically lifted from Dune?


I don't know what the story arc was really, since the show went so far off the rails from the books
 

Mankcam

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I heard George.R.R.Martin at a comic con a few years ago, and he was discussing various creative influences on his work, such as early Chaosium rpgs, and various writers. Frank Herbert's name (and the Dune Cycle) was mentioned more than once, so yeah it was a huge influence on Game of Thrones. In fact, he said that if Dune did not exist, then it was doubtful that A Song Of Fire & Ice would have either.
He also went on to discuss his childhood turtles as character inspiration however...

Regarding the Dune film , despite the flaws, it was better that Lynch did it, rather than a fan favourite like Spielberg.
Sure he has done some deeply insightful pieces like Schindler's List, even parts of Close Encounters and the original Jaws.
But a property like this in his hands in the 1980s would have probably aimed itself at those wanting more Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica.

Which is also a concern with today's audience - do we want more Game of Thrones intrigue or Star Wars effects extravaganza?
Although early reports are sounding optimistic, but who are these reviewers, and what kind of Dune do they want?

Despite such, it is definately spiking my interest.
 
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Necrozius

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I felt that the Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan stole ideas wholesale from was heavily influenced by Dune.
 

Necrozius

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Always loved Sean Young back then (Stripes, Blade Runner Dune, No Way Out); even her voice was hot.
She was the best part of Ace Ventura. Holy shit.

Also, I heard that she tried to get the role of Catwoman in Batman Returns. Her audition was pretty hot, supposedly (she was wholly in character and crawled over the director's desk on hands and knees.

...:heart:
 

TristramEvans

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She was the best part of Ace Ventura. Holy shit.

Also, I heard that she tried to get the role of Catwoman in Batman Returns. Her audition was pretty hot, supposedly (she was wholly in character and crawled over the director's desk on hands and knees.

...:heart:


There's video floating around of her showing up on talkshows of that time period in her homemade catwoman costume.

Undeniably hot, but batshit crazy I think was the general consensus.
 

Voros

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I heard George.R.R.Martin at a comic con a few years ago, and he was discussing various creative influences on his work, such as early Chaosium rpgs, and various writers. Frank Herbert's name (and the Dune Cycle) was mentioned more than once, so yeah it was a huge influence on Game of Thrones.
In fact, he said that if Dune did not exist, then it was doubtful that A Song Of Fire & Ice would have either.

He also went on to discuss his childhood turtles as character inspiration however...

Regarding the Dune film , despite the flaws, it was better that Lynch did it, rather than a fan favourite like Spielberg.

Sure he has done some deeply insightful pieces like Schindler's List, even parts of Close Encounters and the original Jaws.

But a property like this in his hands in the 1980s would have probably aimed itself at those wanting more Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica.

Which is also a concern with today's audience - do we want more Game of Thrones intrigue or Star Wars effects extravaganza?

Although early reports are sounding optimistic, but who are these reviewers, and what kind of Dune do they want?

Despite such, it is definately spiking my interest.

Villenvue is an arthouse director who has found a way to make reasonably commercially successful genre films so I don't think the issue with his Dune will be an attempt to make it a popcorn film.
 

David Johansen

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I read Doon and Bored of the Rings, but I'd never heard of Sellamillion I'll have to find that.

The last two books in Herbert's cycle are about the Bene Gessert facing a existential threat, a cult of women who do what they do (manipulate men) only better. At one point they turn a Tellexiu master, who only watched their sex/enslavement process duplicated by a pair of face dancers. The setting is far advanced, shields are out and lasers are in, computers are back, the Guild has lost its monopoly on space travel. In that, it's very much more a traditional science fiction setting. The "Honoured Matres" come off really poorly in the books, bdsm cartoon villainesses but their origin and the Bene Gessert solution to the problem is very much Dune.

So, what about themes and suchlike? The two books are really one much like Dune and Dune Messiah. I think they're basically about feminism or the failures of feminism in Herbert's mind. The Bene Gessert and Honoured Matres are very anti-feminist in their doctrines. There's also a whiff of the old patriarchal notion that women don't need political power because they already control everything (see also Lieber's Conjure Wife or Niven's Ring World "every woman has a tasp") through sex. It's a story about old institutions floundering in new times, old institutions becoming corrupted and perverse when their original purpose has long passed. The Jews show up and save the day at one point, not the Hind-Jews or some such mash up, just plain old Jews, still plugging along thousands of years in the future. The Tellexiu Axitol tanks are investigated and explained and very much fit with the story thematically. I think one might state the theme as "The institutions which survive the test of time are the institutions that can adapt." Or alternately, "the great white hero always gets the girl in the end."
 

TristramEvans

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I guess I just kinda hoped it was something deeper going on than just Leather Vixens from Mars vs the Idaho Superstud.
 

David Johansen

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Well, that would be "The institutions which survive the test of time are the institutions that can adapt." There's probably something more in there about tawdry prostitution verses classy prostitution but that's probably best left unexplored. To be fair to the Idaho Superstud, the Telexiu analzyed the Honored Matres technique and genetically engineered a countermeasure. It wasn't just the great white hero automatically being the ultimate defense against womanly wiles. It might be that Herbert was trying to answer complaints about the Bene Gessert or that he felt it necessary to explore the natural conclusion of such an organization. They're pretty much the villains of the first two books and the butt of the next two, and then the heroes of the last two.
 

TristramEvans

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I have faith Herbert was going for something deeper that never got realized. I mean, this is the same guy who did the Juses incident quadrilogy just a few years earlier. The man's writing had depth.
 

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Dune really does go to some weird places. Places that you probably didn't realise you didn't want it to go until it went there. And by then, it was too late.
I read the series when I was like 13. I missed so much subtext.
 
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