Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
His style makes me think if a lot of 70's era films that had more long distance and wide angle shots that were held longer than a modern audience might be comfy with.

This is really the classical style to shoot a film, sparing use of close-ups and an emphasis on long, fluid master shots, both outside the US to this day and during the classic era and 70s renaissance in Hollywood. As William Wellman said 'a close-up is an exclamation point.'

 
A written oral history.

Sounds like an oxymoron.
Scripture of traditions/religions [insert many and then many more] would like to hold your spice beer.

....And while we're on the subject, what do you serve with spice beer? Sand would get into sliders and nachos...
 
Scripture of traditions/religions [insert many and then many more] would like to hold your spice beer.

....And while we're on the subject, what do you serve with spice beer? Sand would get into sliders and nachos...
Yes, I thought of the Bible, specifically the Torah, right after I posted that.
 

Regarding the group sex scene in Herbert's script: it's a fascinating how public nudity and group sex is a recurrent theme in US sf, not just in the psychedelic New Wave sf of the 60s/70s (Varley is particularly big on it in his strangely naive but compelling early stories).

It is even notable in Heinlein's stranger jaunts in the 50s, see his hilarious shoe-horning of public nudity in The Puppet Masters. So it's not just a relic of the 60s counterculture.

Thomas Disch talks about the popularity of nudism and 'swinging' among some of the sf generation of the 40s/50s, with a memorable story of meeting a nude Sturgeon and being invited to a threesome with Sturgeon and his wife.
 
Last edited:
Regarding the group sex scene in Herbert's script: it's a fascinating how public nudity and group sex is a recurrent theme in US sf, not just in the psychedelic New Wave sf of the 60s/70s (Varley is particularly big on it in his strangely naive but compelling early stories).

It is even notable in Heinlein's stranger jaunts in the 50s, see his hilarious shoe-horning of public nudity in The Puppet Masters. So it's not just a relic of the 60s counterculture.

Thomas Disch talks about the popularity of nudism and 'swinging' among some of the sf generation of the 40s/50s, with a memorable story of meeting a nude Sturgeon and being invited to a threesome with Sturgeon and his wife.
(Older end of GenX here). Still undecided whether or not I miss the streaking movement, especially at sporting events. And as for sci-fi so much of the Heinlein/Farmier/Asimov/Niven etc. feels like nerd wish fulfillment. Again I'm not sure how I feel...

[Insert non-existent film clip of the moment in my MFA program when I mentioned my choice for the most justified and well written sex scene in literature was in Heretics of Dune (may have been Chapterhouse) certainly no worse than what appears in a lot of capital L literature)]

And then of course, there's Logan's Run where an orgy made the PG-rated movie (probably not the primary reason for the age change to 30...though Blue Lagoon hit the screen just a bit later)
 
(Older end of GenX here). Still undecided whether or not I miss the streaking movement, especially at sporting events. And as for sci-fi so much of the Heinlein/Farmier/Asimov/Niven etc. feels like nerd wish fulfillment. Again I'm not sure how I feel...

[Insert non-existent film clip of the moment in my MFA program when I mentioned my choice for the most justified and well written sex scene in literature was in Heretics of Dune (may have been Chapterhouse) certainly no worse than what appears in a lot of capital L literature)]

And then of course, there's Logan's Run where an orgy made the PG-rated movie (probably not the primary reason for the age change to 30...though Blue Lagoon hit the screen just a bit later)

Delany, Le Guin and Varley are the most serious and seem actually interested in exploring different social structures related to sexuality. Sturgeon too of course although I've yet to read his novel, Venus Plus X, that deals with it most directly.

Le Guin is too timid, didactic and programatic in her sf for my tastes, I much prefer her fantasy; Varley strikes me as naive and utopian (perhaps dangerously so) whereas Delany in books like Dhalgren and Triton is more rigorous and thoughtful.

Early on I think Heinlein was a sincere nudist and definitely dabbled in open relationships in RL although the inclusion of nudism in The Puppet Masters remains amusing. The recurrent incest themes even in his early books, less amusing.

His late period attempts to explore sexuality in his fiction are to me unconvincing, deeply silly and clearly absurd wish fullfilment with some of the later material ('consensual' fucking of boy scouts) outright grotesque.

I've never encountered much sexuality of any note in Asimov, what story or novel are you thinking of?
 
Last edited:
Delany, Le Guin and Varley are the most serious and seem actually interested in exploring different social structures related to sexuality. Sturgeon too of course although I've yet to read his novel, Venus Plus X, that deals with it most directly.

Le Guin is too timid, didactic and programatic in her sf for my tastes, I much prefer her fantasy; Varley strikes me as naive and utopian (perhaps dangerously so) whereas Delany in books like Dhalgren and Triton is more rigorous and thoughtful.

Early on I think Heinlein was a sincere nudist and definitely dabbled in open relationships in RL although the inclusion of nudism in The Puppet Masters remains amusing. The recurrent incest themes even in his early books, less amusing.

His late period attempts to explore sexuality in his fiction are to me unconvincing, deeply silly and clearly absurd wish fullfilment with some of the later material ('consensual' fucking of boy scouts) outright grotesque.

I've never encountered much sexuality of any note in Asimov, what story or novel are you thinking of?
Don't forget Bradley as well and definitely Heinlein. Agreed on Delany, Le Guin and Varley. I did enjoy enough all of their works over all though even if I wasn't always comfortable reading some of the works. Also, I can't recall anything that Asimov wrote that wandered into this either.
 
Last edited:
Don't forget Bradley as well and definitely Heinlein. Agreed on Delany, Le Guin and Varley. I did truly enough all of their works over all though even if I wasn't always comfortable reading some of the works. Also, I can't recall anything that Asimov wrote that wandered into this either.

The funny thing is despite the chasm in their political views no one is a bigger admirer of Heinlein than Delany. Although to be fair, the early free love, socialist Heinlein and Delany are closer politically than most would have suspected.

Well okay, Spider Robinson and other apologists who lose their minds if anyone dare criticize him are bigger, more rabid 'fans,' but I don't take those cult-like folks very seriously.

Delany discusses in depth, at a formalist prose level, the innovations that Heinlein brought to sf. That essay in the Jewel-Hinged Jaw collection is dense and meandering but filled with insights.

Their mutal interest in sexuality and social structure is also obviously a big influence on Delany. Delany discusses Beyond this Horizon and of course Stranger in a Strange Land in that regard as well.

My hot take is that it is Delany, not the supposed 'Hard' sfers who so often worship at his feet, who really learned, applied and extended Heinlein's innovations.
 
Last edited:
His late period attempts to explore sexuality in his fiction are to me unconvincing, deeply silly and clearly absurd wish fullfilment with some of the later material ('consensual' fucking of boy scouts) outright grotesque.
Grotesque is a good word for it, but I've heard his writing became a lot less bizarrely sexual after he had a brain tumour removed.
 
Grotesque is a good word for it, but I've heard his writing became a lot less bizarrely sexual after he had a brain tumour removed.

I don't recall any mention of a tumor from Patterson's huge Heinlein biography but those books are rather overstuffed and I could have easily forgotten it.
 
I don't recall any mention of a tumor from Patterson's huge Heinlein biography but those books are rather overstuffed and I could have easily forgotten it.
Memories from when the John Adams (McCullogh?) hit the bestseller list:
1. A book everyone bought and talked about but nobody read (unfair. I listened to it's quite good--and I rarely touch biographies)
2. Non-fiction is sold by the pound.
 
I don't recall any mention of a tumor from Patterson's huge Heinlein biography but those books are rather overstuffed and I could have easily forgotten it.
Doing a little more digging, it wasn't a tumour - it was a blood flow blockage to the brain. He had a carotid artery bypass fitted and it brought the old Heinlein back. His next book was Number of the Beast.
 
Can face dancers change size? Any limits on this? I'm sort of assuming that they can. I suppose it begs the question where the extra mass comes from but *handwave*
 
Can face dancers change size? Any limits on this? I'm sort of assuming that they can. I suppose it begs the question where the extra mass comes from but *handwave*

I think they were able to change body shapes to an extent - become fat or thin as needed, but I didn't get the impression it was full-on shapeshifting powers, it was rooted in the same level of development of physiological control that the Bene G's used for their Voice.
 
I would imagine that face dancers are of fairly average height and weight and slouch or sag as needed. They do seem to present as being flexible enough to call it shape changing. There might be more preparation for specific roles and they might be able to put on weight and lose it faster. And they can change their sex, which raises some questions about the mechanism. But the limitations seem to be about on par with the Change Self spell.
 
I think they were able to change body shapes to an extent - become fat or thin as needed, but I didn't get the impression it was full-on shapeshifting powers, it was rooted in the same level of development of physiological control that the Bene G's used for their Voice.

I would imagine that face dancers are of fairly average height and weight and slouch or sag as needed. They do seem to present as being flexible enough to call it shape changing. There might be more preparation for specific roles and they might be able to put on weight and lose it faster. And they can change their sex, which raises some questions about the mechanism. But the limitations seem to be about on par with the Change Self spell.
i read a thing that described their natural shape as small, and then I read there was one that replicated Duncan, so I sort of assumed they could shapechange humanoid in a pretty wide range. like one could do baron harkonnen and also do chani perhaps.
 
i read a thing that described their natural shape as small, and then I read there was one that replicated Duncan, so I sort of assumed they could shapechange humanoid in a pretty wide range. like one could do baron harkonnen and also do chani perhaps.

They replicated Duncan as in literally cloned him from his DNA.
 
i read a thing that described their natural shape as small, and then I read there was one that replicated Duncan, so I sort of assumed they could shapechange humanoid in a pretty wide range. like one could do baron harkonnen and also do chani perhaps.
They are capable of near perfect mimicry of the subject. If they can spend time with the subject, they are supposedly able to get some memories as well. In God Emperor. It's only Leto, individuals he trained, and Truthsayers that can identify facedancers.
 
Interesting piece on two early scripts for Dune in the early 70s:

Can you imagine if a Dune movie came out before Star Wars? I don't think Lucas could have made it if Dune had, It would've end up looking like a budget Dune.
 
Banner: The best cosmic horror & Cthulhu Mythos @ DriveThruRPG.com
Back
Top