DUNE

[Voros]

The best piece I ever read on Dune, I think it is what inspired me to sit down and finally read it, was an essay by Norman Spinrad in his excellent collection of sf criticism Science Fiction in the Real World.

Someone posts the essay on this blog here (scroll down past the short interview, which is also of interest but not as in-depth).

I notice Spinrad mentions The Santaroga Barrier as his pick for one of the best novels by Herbert. I liked that one as well, I picked it up mainly because of its cool, trippy 70s sf cover but any sf novel that references the German Christian Existentialist philosopher Karl Jaspers via its mind-expanding drug called Jaspers was a fun read for me.

 

[David Johansen]

I thought I recalled the "relationship" between the Baron and his nephew being referenced in the book, but I can't say for certain that I'm not mixing up my memories with the film elements.

Overall though, it's clear from many of Herbert's writing that he did not have...modern views...towards sexuality, or at the very least his characters did not.

So, I keep starting up a post about the way Dune's empire doesn't conform to modern values or even the values of the nineteen fifties and deleting it. But in the book the Baron Harkonen is a pedophile who prefers boys and molested Feud Rautha who was his favorite. At one point he has Feud kill all the sex slaves as a punishment for disobediance. Personally I like the version from Doon where they strangle kittens, or perhaps the episode of The Tick where he tries to infiltrate the underworld, "okay Tick! If you're evil now you won't mind eating this kitten!" "Ugh, I knew evil was bad but ewww." It's been about two years since I last read the whole series. I'll admit my attitude towards the Bene Gesseret is colored by Heretics and Chapterhouse which are the two books about the Bene Gesseret but they're also not well liked by the fans.

But the Padash Emperor has sex slaves. The Bene Gesseret sell concubines to the noble and elite and use a submit and assimilate tactic to survive down through the milenia. The Fish Speakers use sex to quell rebellions. The Honored Matres can conquer any man with as little as a second hand description of their secret sex act. And homosexuality is viewed as an abomination even in the beloved first book. So, it's not like you can really bring a faithful adaptation to the cinema.

 

[Dumarest]

So, it's not like you can really bring a faithful adaptation to the cinema.

No book can be translated to film without numerous changes. But even if it could be done, you'd just get the usual complaints that a fictional world isn't presented as someone's idealized reality.

But you know what, if a change bothers someone he can...(shh, keep it quiet, this is a secret trick I rarely reveal)...just read the book and disregard the movie adaptation.

 

[TristramEvans]

The way I viewed it (no counting Heretics and Chapterhouse), is that Herbert's characters were presented as exceedingly pragmatic in a way that is "alien" to modern (even at the time f his writings) cultural sensibilities. "Sex" was seen by powerful groups as a tool to be used, no more significant than a gun or a wrench. The Bene Gesserit were also staunch eugenecists, and their "breeding program" was one of the underlying plots of the series. The God Emperor used the Fish Speakers as a means of conquering, because they would assimilate with the people that they defeated. I always thought it was intended as a reference to the way that, in giving up thinking machines, mankind had in turn become more machine-like in it's thinking (cold, calculating, lacking sentimentality). But I always suspected that Duncan was meant to express the author's PoV, and he is visibly disgusted by these practices.

But then we get to Heretics and Chapterhouse and, well, I think I've mentioned before, I keep wanting to believe there was intended to be something more there than "Stud Idaho vs The Leather Vixens", but as we're unlikely to ever learn what Herbert's true intentions were for the third book in that trilogy, I'm a bit at a loss.

 

[David Johansen]

I think there's a lot of good stuff in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The Honored Matres are the natural progression of the Bene Geseret methods and ideology as descended from Leto II's Fish Speakers. But the setting has moved on from the shields and knives pardigim, the society is more recognizable space opera with rayguns and, I'd argue, more like the modern world. The last two books are about the Bene Geseret from the inside but in a time when many institutions have passed away and computers are in use and the empire and spaceing guild long forgotten historical curiousities. I think Herbert would have done better to explain where the Honored Matres came from earlier on, it's too much like there's this out of nowhere bad girl Bene Geseret gang that's hunting them down for no reason. It reminds me of Flash Dance where there's the good and artistic strip club and the evil exploitive and dirty strip club across the street.

I was poking around in my Traveller file yesterday and came across this: http://www3.telus.net/public/uncouths/Dune.pdf I don't even remember writing it but I think it's from a couple years ago when I made some notes for a Traveller retro-clone and Starwars conversion.

 

[Voros]

So, I keep starting up a post about the way Dune's empire doesn't conform to modern values or even the values of the nineteen fifties and deleting it. But in the book the Baron Harkonen is a pedophile who prefers boys and molested Feud Rautha who was his favorite. At one point he has Feud kill all the sex slaves as a punishment for disobediance. Personally I like the version from Doon where they strangle kittens, or perhaps the episode of The Tick where he tries to infiltrate the underworld, "okay Tick! If you're evil now you won't mind eating this kitten!" "Ugh, I knew evil was bad but ewww." It's been about two years since I last read the whole series. I'll admit my attitude towards the Bene Gesseret is colored by Heretics and Chapterhouse which are the two books about the Bene Gesseret but they're also not well liked by the fans.

But the Padash Emperor has sex slaves. The Bene Gesseret sell concubines to the noble and elite and use a submit and assimilate tactic to survive down through the milenia. The Fish Speakers use sex to quell rebellions. The Honored Matres can conquer any man with as little as a second hand description of their secret sex act. And homosexuality is viewed as an abomination even in the beloved first book. So, it's not like you can really bring a faithful adaptation to the cinema.

In the book it is suggested that he molests Feyd-Rautha (he lusts after him but the molestation per se is only suggested as this was first published in the puritan Analog) and Feyd like Paul is a young boy at that point in the novel and it is much, much less in your face than in Lynch's film. Not sure that I'd agree that homosexuality is viewed as an 'abomination' in the first book because as you say the Baron is a pedophile not homosexual. To state the obvious, being a pedophile is not the same as being homosexual.

Most of the rest you mention is not in the first book. And in terms of morality, everything you mention is by ridiculously over-the-top villiains not protagonists and their behaviour is clearly signalled to be reprehensible so if anything the morality of the books is conventional not amoral.

I'm thinking I'll re-read Dune soon and thinking of taking on the next two books although I've heard Children of Dune is the better novel and Dune Messiah is a bit of a slog. Elements of Dune Messiah sound too convoulted to me so I'm tempted to jump to Children of Dune. Not really interested in reading past that, I'd rather read another non-Dune Herbert novel that just one sequel after another, never been big on 'trilogies' or series as I find they suffer from the law of diminishing returns.

 

[TristramEvans]

Not really interested in reading past that

Oh no, you'd be missing the best book in the series and the one that wraps everything up in a satisfying conclusion!

 

[Kilted Rob]

Read God Emperor, It builds on the original trilogy and is delightfully deep and philosophical.

Messiah is disliked by many because it's the pivot of the original story, it is where Herbert begins the dismantling of the tropes and assumptions of Dune.

 

[TristramEvans]

I seriously like God Emperor better than any other book in the series.

I personally found Children a slog - it seemed like a retread of the themes of Messiah. Messiah, though, I consider essential to understanding the first book

 

[Kilted Rob]

On the surface it appears so, but it needed to be structurally. Herbert once again takes the tropes and archetypes from Dune, the heroes journey, myth of the messiah, absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible, and inverts them yet again. Without Children, there is no God Emperor.

 

[Voros]

Oh no, you'd be missing the best book in the series and the one that wraps everything up in a satisfying conclusion!

I was intrigued by the idea of the Leto II sandworm, the idea is grotesque and neat.

Maybe I'll skip the other two and just jump to God Emperor, I'm not a stickler for chronology.

 

[David Johansen]

Bear in mind that Dune Messiah and Dune were intended as one book. The story isn't about the chosen one's rise to power, it's about the perils of power and foresight and the price you pay for it. Liking the first book and not liking the second is a bit like liking the first half of Hamlet because it's a love story about a common girl and a silly prince who acts silly.

 

[Voros]

Messiah is disliked by many because it's the pivot of the original story, it is where Herbert begins the dismantling of the tropes and assumptions of Dune.

I'm fine with that, it is more the convoluted plotting (gholas of previously dead characters and the like) that has put me off the later books.

 

[TristramEvans]

I'm fine with that, it is more the convoluted plotting that disinterests me from most of the later books.

In that case, I'd say God Emperor has a more straightforward plot and presentation than even Dune itself

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[TristramEvans]

" must not purr. Purring is the mind-killer. Purring is the little-death that brings total domestication. I will face my purr. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the purr has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

 

[Voros]

Not sure how many are aware that the Reverend Mother in Lynch's Dune is played by the great Italian actor Silvana Magiano, queen of Italian arthouse films reaching back from Bitter Rice, through Death in Venice up to Visconti's Conversation Piece. She hadn't made a film for a decade when she did Dune, I wonder how Lynch (or De Laurentis) convinced her to return? Her performance is one of the highlights of the film.

We just rewatched (hadn't seen it since I was a teen) Pasolini's Theorem from 68' on TCM Imports and she is the mother.



Mildly surprised that they went with Josh Brolin as Halleck and Issac as Duke Leto but Isaac is a great actor too and is quite capable of bringing the dignity and gravitas required for the role as he showed in the underrated (and deceptively titled) A Most Violent Year where he plays a patriarch quite convincingly.

 

[Necrozius]

great Italian actor Silvana Magiano

She definitely stood out to me. I love that epic prophecy stuff. I knew exactly who you were referring to. Nice.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Well, since the vast majority of the time the people who are making such changes will make it public exactly why they are doing it, yeah, the conversations tend to be about that. But there's discussion, for example, about some of the new Marvel versions that are about more than plumbing.

Unless I'm forgetting something, swapping Liet Kynes is a change without consequence. Swapping Paul Atreides would require structural changes.

It's not unlike the Doctor Who casting thing. I didn't like the corporate reason behind it, when it happened. But I was quite happy with the choice. And I think a female Doctor would have been utter genius casting after Tennant or Smith, rather than casting Capaldi. How bold would that have been?

It's funny how you can be OK with a thing, even if the reason for the thing is annoying. And then get a temporary ban from a particular forum for having that opinion. Go White Knights!

Liet Kynes getting flipped isn't an issue for me. Dune is, as others have said, a sausage fest. Sadly, if they don't change the character's fate, I can see accusations of both PC gone mad and fridging being made.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Are you sure it wasn't Sian Philips?

 

[Voros]

Are you sure it wasn't Sian Philips?

No, you can check imdb. Also just caught Dune on cable last night.

 

[Voros]

It's not unlike the Doctor Who casting thing. I didn't like the corporate reason behind it, when it happened. But I was quite happy with the choice. And I think a female Doctor would have been utter genius casting after Tennant or Smith, rather than casting Capaldi. How bold would that have been?

It's funny how you can be OK with a thing, even if the reason for the thing is annoying. And then get a temporary ban from a particular forum for having that opinion. Go White Knights!

Liet Kynes getting flipped isn't an issue for me. Dune is, as others have said, a sausage fest. Sadly, if they don't change the character's fate, I can see accusations of both PC gone mad and fridging being made.

Funny, Dune never struck me as such as both have Lady Jessica, Chani, the Reverend Mother and Alia, all very important and formiable women (and girl) who get a lot of screen time, two are overtly warriors and the other two powerful psychics.

Looking at the whole cast I think Kynes is the only gender change so I'm not sold it was done to increase the number of women of the cast for PC reasons, after all Kynes is a releatively minor character even in the book outside of his death scene which I discuss in the main Dune thread. That scene is thematically important in the book but wasn't even in Lynch's film. I hope it will be in the new film as it will justify the Kynes character being included at all.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Funny, Dune never struck me as such as both have Lady Jessica, Chani, the Reverend Mother and Alia, all very important and formiable women (and girl) who get a lot of screen time, two are overtly warriors and the other two powerful psychics.

Looking at the whole cast I think Kynes is the only gender change so I'm not sold it was done to increase the number of women of the cast for PC reasons, after all Kynes is a releatively minor character even in the book outside of his death scene which I discuss in the main Dune thread. That scene is thematically important in the book but wasn't even in Lynch's film. I hope it will be in the new film as it will justify the Kynes character being included at all.

I'm not sure Dune as written is something particularly palatable in today's Hollywood.

I mean, a book about desert people finding a messiah and starting on a galactic jihad, where a hallucinogenic drug is the foundation of society? Seriously? Whoever greenlit it never read it.

 

[Voros]

I'm not sure Dune as written is something particularly palatable in today's Hollywood.

I mean, a book about desert people finding a messiah and starting on a galactic jihad, where a hallucinogenic drug is the foundation of society? Seriously? Whoever greenlit it never read it.

I'm surprised Warner Bros. chose Villenevue to direct honestly. I think he is a great pick but not the commercially safe one. Arrival was a surprise hit and Sicario was a relatively big hit too (enough to get a sequel by other hands) but my understanding is that Bladerunner 2049 'under-performed.' Not surprising considering the original was a actually a box officr flop and Villenevue's film was even more 'slow' and contemplative than the original. Although I suspect it made its money back and perhaps even made a profit off foreign sales as for instance the much bigger flop John Carter film did.

Villenevue showed in Sicario that unlike Lynch he is a dynamite action director but I think Dune is going to be too cerebral, weird and arty for a lot of people who may be expecting Avengers or even Inception levels of near constant action.

 

[Atelerix]

Just checked - Sian Philips is Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, the central character, but Silvana Mangano plays Reverend Mother Ramallo, the Fremen RM.

 

[Voros]

Just checked - Sian Philips is Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, the central character, but Silvana Mangano plays Reverend Mother Ramallo, the Fremen RM.

Ah! So she is a Reverend Mother but not the Reverand Mother we see the most. Thanks. So we barely see her, odd that she is so prominent in the cast list. I guess they figured she'd appeal to to European audiences, typical of De Laurentis to cast a big name like her and then barely feature her in the edit!

I wondered how she performed without an accent but then Von Sydow performs without much trace of his accent.

I guess it I found it difficult to spot the difference with the shaved heads.

 

[TristramEvans]

Dune is, as others have said, a sausage fest.

You're actually the only person to have directly claimed that, and it's a pretty big giveaway that you haven't read the series

 

[Stevethulhu]

You're actually the only person to have directly claimed that, and it's a pretty big giveaway that you haven't read the series

Really. I guess I never got the original trilogy out of the library age 14. I guess I never had paperbacks of them from not long after, to this very day. And bought them again for my Kindle.

But only the Frank Herbert ones.

Jon Snow, you're obviously an expert on everything except Dune. And my reading habits over the decades. Oh, and the Dune thread where the sausage fest comment was first made.

Dune: Character List | SparkNotes

A list of all the characters in Dune. Dune characters include: Paul Atreides, Jessica, Baron Harkonnen.

www.sparknotes.com

24 named characters. Seven female. Less than a third, most of them, like Irulan and Hamah are barely in the book. Irulam features more in the quotes that open chapters than she does as a speaking character. Even Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, for all that she casts a long shadow, is barely in the book.

 

[TristramEvans]

Really. I guess I never got the original trilogy out of the library age 14. I guess I never had paperbacks of them from not long after, to this very day. And bought them again for my Kindle.

But only the Frank Herbert ones.

Jon Snow, you're obviously an expert on everything except Dune. And my reading habits over the decades. Oh, and the Dune thread where the sausage fest comment was first made.

The comment made in the thread was this:

Many old stories were complete sausage fests.

As I said, you are the only one to specifically refer to Dune as a "Sausage fest".

Whatever your reading habits were over the decades, the statement is still so absurd as to indicate that your memory of said book series is flawed.

A supposition I can't say is dissuaded by your choice to then reference "Spark Notes", lol.

And, let me say, this wasn't the best tactic, as I'm sure many of us here can quite easily name more than 24 characters in the first book. Like, off the top of my head. And that's without involving characters that were not present in the Lynch film adaption. So I'm not sure if it will serve you well to answer a question like this - how many scenes in the book did not actively involve a female character?

And, since we are talking about a series of books, how many major female characters overall in regards to male characters? (Or does Spark Notes not cover any of the books besides the first one?)

I am, admittedly, being hyperbollically salty here. But that's mainly because I find the accusation to be utterly ridiculous. But if you do want to continue this debate though, perhaps we should move it to the actual Dune thread?

 

[Stevethulhu]

Thre comment made in the thread was this:



As I said, you are the only one to specifically refer to Dune as a "Sausage fest".

Whatever your reading habits were over the decades, the statement is still so absurd as to indicate that your memory of said book series is flawed.

A supposition I can't say is dissuaded by your choice to then reference "Spark Notes", lmao.

And, let me say, this wasn't the best tactic, as I'm sure many of us here can quite easily name more than 24 characters in the first book. Like, off the top of my head. And that's without involving characters that were not present in the Lynch film adaption. So I'm not sure if it will serve you well to answer a question like this - how many scenes in the book did not actively involve a female character?

And, since we are talking about a series of books, how manymajor female characters overall in regards to male characters? (Or does Spark Notes not cover any of the books besides the first one?)

I am, admittedly, being hyperbollically salty here. But that's mainly because I find the accusation to be utterly ridiculous. But if you do want to continue this debate, perhaps we should move it to the actual Dune thread?

You tell me, since you're the one with a bug up his ass about this. I haven't read the original books in a decade and the second trilogy this century. But in terms of female characters with actual speaking parts and impact on the plots of the books, rather than name checks and maybe a one chapter cameo, the numbers are pretty low.

As for a debate, there isn't one because you you are so obviously on a high horse about a relatively trivial matter.

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[Stevethulhu]

Communication by meme isn't communication. It's a way of saying, "I don't care what you have to say, but I will wave to the peanut gallery to score obscure forms of Internet Points."

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[Mankcam]

Wow
Would not have thought my little 'DUNE' thread would have become controversial...

(If I had an appropriate meme, I would use it right now )

 

[David Johansen]

I just wrote a big spiel about characters in Dune, realized this is the rules discussion and deleted it.

I copied it to the Dune thread first.

 

[David Johansen]

It was implied elsewhere that Dune is a sausagefest and I rambled off a bit of a response and moved it here where it's more appropriate.

So, Princess Irrulian gets the first paragraph of every chapter as a speaking part. The entire book is presented as the truth behind her histories. Jessica is Paul's mother and the second most important character, in fact, she's a better defined character with greater depth than Paul. The reverend mother Helen Gaius Mohan has the ear of the Emperor and is a leading representative of a very powerful all female organization that can make men do whatever they want with "The Voice." Chani is the lead character's love interest and really doesn't get all that much development. She's a warrior and a killer among a ruthless killer people and she certainly doesn't wear a bikini or lounge around in submissive positions. She does wear pumps but so do the men. I'd have to look up the Freman Paul kills in the duel's wife's name but in some ways even she gets more depth than Chani as she has to deal with being rejected. Alia kills the villain. Let's say that again, Paul's little sister kills the baron Harkonen. Nope not the big damn hero with the knife, he kills the henchman. The despicable pedophile villain is killed by a little girl who's psyche is made up of a lot of old ladies. Count Fenring's wife is really his master.

By comparison, the Duke Leto is on screen very little, he's trapped and surrounded by enemies but most of his choices are made for him. Duncan is the big damn square jawed hero but he's mostly there to die and then live again over and over in times when such men are largely irrelevant. I think that's very thematic to the whole story, Duncan gets a major scene in the first book, when he's drunk and disorderly but mainly he dies. Later on when he is reborn, he's mainly the guy that all the exposition is exposited to. Thurfir Hawat's prejudice and incompetence fail to prevent the Attredies fall, he spends some time as the Baron's Mentat Assassin after that but really isn't on screen much. Gurney Hallack is Paul's teacher but isn't on page all that much. The emperor gets most of his time on the page from Irrulian's reminiscinces about him in the chapter headers. Feud Rautha gets some development, mostly to set him up as a worthy threat at the end of the book. The Baron Harkonen is a monstrous villain, he's the real mover in the book, everyone else is just dancing to his beat and he wants to be emperor, he's willing to accept that Fued might be emperor and he might be the power behind the throne or dead. He's a repulsive, cartoonishly evil figure as is appropriate to a space opera. I don't like him but I'm not supposed to like him.

 

[Necrozius]

That's a pretty good rundown, David Johansen . I can't comment on that.

I'm still okay with gender- and race-swapping characters as long as they don't negate or diminish the character's meaning or arc. Change is okay, as long as it's good writing. I'm not a fan of "Death of the Author" and other post-modernist thought when it comes to speculative fiction in particular, because by its very nature, the genre is all about the author exploring a particular human issue. But I'm not very educated or intelligent, so take my words with a block of salt.

Regarding the change of Liet Kynes from a white man to a black woman:

• In the hands of another director, I would be rolling my eyes at what I'd interpret as an obviously patronizing move. But I trust this director.
  
  
• From my vague memory, I don't remember Kynes having any obvious attachments to symbolism about the hubris of masculinity or whatever. More on the hubris of scientific progress or thought? Despite all his expertise, he only *really* understood the ecology of Arrakis while out there, helpless, without a shield of technology and process. I haven't read the book in a while.
  
  
• As long as they keep the character's role in the story the same, I don't really care about the change.

But I can truly understand being upset about changing material from a beloved book. I'm still frustrated by the Harry Potter movies, the Witcher series and pretty much every filmed version of a Stephen King book.

 

[Kilted Rob]

Dune explores power structures, how It is wielded, and what purposes does power serve. Notice that male power is very visual. It has the appearance dominance. Female power is more subtle.

Look at the roles women play and how they are valued in the different factions.

 

[David Johansen]

The funny thing is that Kynes is actually instrumental in Paul's victory. He laid the foundations for the Fremen to be a power. He organized the secret bribing of the Guild to hide their farms and trees on the far side of Arrakis. And he lied about the ecology of the sandworms and ensured that nobody would figure out that they needed a water world to establish their life cycle. Ten thousand years later people are still trying to cultivate a sandworm ecology on desert worlds.

 

[Stan]

It was implied elsewhere that Dune is a sausagefest and I rambled off a bit of a response and moved it here where it's more appropriate.

Fair enough, it's been a couple of decades since I read it. I remember Jessica being powerful and having made big decisions but not that assertive for the book. The imperial court, the navigator's guild, and most of the Duke's court were predominately male.

But I never said that Dune was a sausage fest. I said that Hollywood is used to making changes because many older books are. Look the changes made to LOTR and The Hobbit. Many people were whiny bitches about it but the books had very few female characters.