Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
Yeah, this. There's nothing literally Arabic or Middle Eastern about the Fremen in the books, its simply the situation that's a natural resource allegory for our world.
And the language. Imagery, too. The Fremen as written come across very much as part Afghan, part Bedouin.

You can't read the Glossary in the appendices and say there's no Arabic influence on Dune.
 
The Fremen as written come across very much as part Afghan, part Bedouin.

Or part any culture that had developed surviving in a dessert landscape.

You can't read the Glossary in the appendices and say there's no Arabic influence on Dune.

But again, that's a "future language" translated into terms that a 20th century reader would understand.

The demands of literature to enforce an analogy through the use of language ultimately are not the same demands placed on a motion picture to convey the same concepts visually.
 
I like the trope of the Butlerian Jihad - I could see a backlash against AI, ubiquitous surveillance and abuse of social media actually taking place. Taking it to the point where AI was banned, or at least sat in an uneasy relationship with society, is quite an interesting thing to posit. Compare/contrast this with the ubiquitous networking prevalent in cyberpunk literature.
 
I like the trope of the Butlerian Jihad - I could see a backlash against AI, ubiquitous surveillance and abuse of social media actually taking place. Taking it to the point where AI was banned, or at least sat in an uneasy relationship with society, is quite an interesting thing to posit. Compare/contrast this with the ubiquitous networking prevalent in cyberpunk literature.

The Scottish sf writer Ken MacLeod has presented some fascinating ideas around AI, politics and the environment in his books. I had never thought of it but Herbert is probably a big influence.
 
The Scottish sf writer Ken MacLeod has presented some fascinating ideas around AI, politics and the environment in his books. I had never thought of it but Herbert is probably a big influence.
I've never read anything of his. Might get something and read it. Any particular recommendations?

In unrelated news, the A.I. backlash trope makes an appearance in the setting I've done for the S&V games. You don't see it a lot, but it's more of an absence. There were a series of historical backlashes against AI and ubiquitous surveillance/networking called the AI wars, and public networking technology looks more like the earlier days of usenet and gopher than the modern web. Artificial Intelligence research is quite unpopular in many circles and old "Terran AI" technology is sought after by folks looking to do something clandestine with the technology. There is a significant polity that has an outright ban on artificial intelligence and practices genetic engineering and cloning/artificial rearing - think something a bit like the Azi from the Alliance-Uniion 'verse, perhaps more so than Herbert's mentats.
 
Or part any culture that had developed surviving in a dessert landscape.



But again, that's a "future language" translated into terms that a 20th century reader would understand.

The demands of literature to enforce an analogy through the use of language ultimately are not the same demands placed on a motion picture to convey the same concepts visually.
The Empire are the good guys. Daniel LaRusso was the bully. And Muad'Dib was a fundamentalist who got radicalised and became a terrorist.

Ignore and apologise as much as you want, but it doesnt change the influences and the actual words used in the text. Because saying it's a translation of a made up language wouldn't fly when I tried it in my English A Level when I wrote a piece on Elric. And it makes any attempt at serious analysis of the text pointless.

But dont take my word for it. Read the book and pay attention to the words used. They are deliberately chosen to evoke particular moods, tones and atmospheres. They weren't written in some future language. It's English.
 
Guys, I do wonder if they will be able to pull out the telepathy dialogues. Villeneuve has the Arrival on his career which was a great way of showing this alien language giving a new perspective of time. But I'm yet to see how they will make the Bene Gesserit talk to each other mentally at the same time while they are talking another thing physically with other people in the run. The closest I have seen to this is Lady Galadriel and Frodo on the Fellowship movie, but I still don't know how they are pulling this out on big dialogues.

But I'm still on the team that this trailer hasn't showed anything aside budget.


Paul himself uses crusade and the Butlerian Jihad was described as a crusade. Using both would actually fit what Herbert was doing blending current institutions. Think about it, The Orange Catholic Bible. The Orange a reference to Northern Ireland Protestantism and Catholic, well Catholicism.
Yeah, forgot about that. Thank you very much.
Now I'm starting to be positive towards the movie. :hehe:

Agreed, but hey, The Lord of the Rings films got a whole bunch of people to read the books. Perhaps the two Dune films will as well.
I can finally meme "THE SPICE MUST FLOW" and people will understand me, if this comes to pass.
 
The Empire are the good guys. Daniel LaRusso was the bully. And Muad'Dib was a fundamentalist who got radicalised and became a terrorist.

lol, what are you even talking about now? The Empire from Star Wars? You think they're "the good guys"? Something about the Karate Kid?

And no, Paul Atreides was not a "fundamentalist", and noboy "radicalized" him. In the course of events in the book, he's the one who used the Fremen to carry out his revenge - he radicalized them. And because he can see the ultimate outcome of that due to his prescience, that is why he feels guilty and responsible for the horrors they inflict upon the populated worlds of the empire.

Ignore and apologise as much as you want, but it doesnt change the influences and the actual words used in the text. Because saying it's a translation of a made up language wouldn't fly when I tried it in my English A Level when I wrote a piece on Elric. And it makes any attempt at serious analysis of the text pointless.

If you ignore analogy, you aren't undertaking any "serious analysis of the text". But we're talking about adapting a book into a film, not analyzing a text. And I'm not certain what fast one you tried to pull in your English class regarding afantasy series, but I question it's relevance here.

But dont take my word for it. Read the book and pay attention to the words used. They are deliberately chosen to evoke particular moods, tones and atmospheres. They weren't written in some future language. It's English.

Nobody said "it was written in a future language", pay attention to the words actually written in this thread.

To reiterate, the characters in Dune are speaking a "future language" translated into terms that a 20th century reader would understand (unless you think an alien civilization millenia in the future are still speaking 20th century English?) using linguisticanalogies. The Fremen are not literally Arabic anymore than the Bene Gesserit are literally Catholic nuns. The parallels are there to evoke an understanding of the socio-political situation.

To insist that the Fremen be portrayed as a specific 20th century culture is as absurd as insisting that a film based on The Book of the New Sun portray everyone as Greek.

And, again, the demands of literature to enforce an analogy through the use of language ultimately are not the same demands placed on a motion picture to convey the same concepts.

So, yeah, I don't care if they prefer the word "crusade" over "jihad" because both are words in English to invoke the concept of a "Holy War", which is all that needs to be understood to convey the book's intentions to an audience.
 

Dad-Jokes-Pin.jpg
 
I've never read anything of his. Might get something and read it. Any particular recommendations?

In unrelated news, the A.I. backlash trope makes an appearance in the setting I've done for the S&V games. You don't see it a lot, but it's more of an absence. There were a series of historical backlashes against AI and ubiquitous surveillance/networking called the AI wars, and public networking technology looks more like the earlier days of usenet and gopher than the modern web. Artificial Intelligence research is quite unpopular in many circles and old "Terran AI" technology is sought after by folks looking to do something clandestine with the technology. There is a significant polity that has an outright ban on artificial intelligence and practices genetic engineering and cloning/artificial rearing - think something a bit like the Azi from the Alliance-Uniion 'verse, perhaps more so than Herbert's mentats.

Probably start with The Star Fraction, part of a 4 book series but thankfully each book stands on its own quite well.
 
Dude, it's in nearly every thread you visit. You can't take what you like to dish out. Not to mention how you delete posts you personally dislike.


Dude , what are you talking about? I barely ever even respond to your constant jokes. And I erase posts as a mod that are political, or blatantly threadcrapping - I didn't delete your posts in this thread, I simply responded back in kind - so it kinda seems right now you are the one who can't take what you're dishing out.
 
Last edited:
Dude , what are you talking about? I barely ever even respond to your constant "jokes". And I erase posts that are political, or blatantly threadcrapping
We both know that's false. Also laughable given you are Threadcrapper Numero Uno around here.
- I didn't delete your posts in this thread, I simply responded back in kind
Wasn't referring to this thread.
- so it kinda seems right now you are the one who can't take what you're dishing out.
I'm sure it's pure coincidence that you're the only moderator/poster at the center of kerfuffles all the time and have to hide behind the "I'm just a regular poster, har har" line when called out.
 
Doon, dessert planet where the fremenmen await the coming of the ModelT who will take them somewhere they can get some entries. Where the giant pretzels roam and produce the beer which gives its drinkers the red on red eye of egad.
 
We both know that's false. Also laughable given you are Threadcrapper Numero Uno around here.

Wasn't referring to this thread.

I'm sure it's pure coincidence that you're the only moderator/poster at the center of kerfuffles all the time and have to hide behind the "I'm just a regular poster, har har" line when called out.

(sigh) If you can't take being teased back, then don't tease.

I'm not going to take seriously you throwing a tantrum about moderation in a situation you acknowledge yourself where there was no moderation in an attempt to deflect.

Don't know what triggered you in this situation, but right now you're just coming across as hypocritical..
 
Tristram’s a threadcrapper? When did this happen?

This is a thread about Dune and how cool it is once I read it. If you want to talk about modding, bring it up in the other forum.
 
Guys, I do wonder if they will be able to pull out the telepathy dialogues. Villeneuve has the Arrival on his career which was a great way of showing this alien language giving a new perspective of time. But I'm yet to see how they will make the Bene Gesserit talk to each other mentally at the same time while they are talking another thing physically with other people in the run. The closest I have seen to this is Lady Galadriel and Frodo on the Fellowship movie, but I still don't know how they are pulling this out on big dialogues.
The telepathy of the Lynch movie is merely a devise of exposition and it isn't in the books at all. Common misconception - the Bene Gesserit aren't psychic, they merely have honed perceptual and body control skills in order to fool people into thinking they are.
 
lol, what are you even talking about now? The Empire from Star Wars? You think they're "the good guys"? Something about the Karate Kid?

And no, Paul Atreides was not a "fundamentalist", and noboy "radicalized" him. In the course of events in the book, he's the one who used the Fremen to carry out his revenge - he radicalized them. And because he can see the ultimate outcome of that due to his prescience, that is why he feels guilty and responsible for the horrors they inflict upon the populated worlds of the empire.
Have you read the book?



If you ignore analogy, you aren't undertaking any "serious analysis of the text". But we're talking about adapting a book into a film, not analyzing a text. And I'm not certain what fast one you tried to pull in your English class regarding afantasy series, but I question it's relevance here.
Keep moving those goal posts!


Nobody said "it was written in a future language", pay attention to the words actually written in this thread.
I must have imagined this:
But again, that's a "future language" translated into terms that a 20th century reader would understand.

To reiterate, the characters in Dune are speaking a "future language" translated into terms that a 20th century reader would understand (unless you think an alien civilization millenia in the future are still speaking 20th century English?) using linguisticanalogies. The Fremen are not literally Arabic anymore than the Bene Gesserit are literally Catholic nuns. The parallels are there to evoke an understanding of the socio-political situation.

To insist that the Fremen be portrayed as a specific 20th century culture is as absurd as insisting that a film based on The Book of the New Sun portray everyone as Greek.

And, again, the demands of literature to enforce an analogy through the use of language ultimately are not the same demands placed on a motion picture to convey the same concepts.

So, yeah, I don't care if they prefer the word "crusade" over "jihad" because both are words in English to invoke the concept of a "Holy War", which is all that needs to be understood to convey the book's intentions to an audience.
You really don't do context based analysis, do you.

Still, it's easy to fall back on moderating yourself and posting memes, then locking the thread.
 
The telepathy of the Lynch movie is merely a devise of exposition and it isn't in the books at all. Common misconception - the Bene Gesserit aren't psychic, they merely have honed perceptual and body control skills in order to fool people into thinking they are.
But don't they use "telepathy" as a secret gesture composition to be able to have multiple conversations in the same room? I remember this stuff from the books. I only read the first three books, so my knowledge is somewhat limited, but I do remember this gesture conversation.
 
Have you read the book?




Keep moving those goal posts!



I must have imagined this:



You really don't do context based analysis, do you.

Still, it's easy to fall back on moderating yourself and posting memes, then locking the thread.

I’ve already told Dumarest moderation discussion goes in the other forum. We are going to start insisting on this, starting right now.

Any more moderation talk in this thread is a thread-ban.
 

I don't know what the hell is going on in this thread. If I'm being perfectly honest, I only peeked at it to rubberneck at whatever disturbance is going on.

But I'll also be honest and say that because of this image, I desperately want to see an adaptation of Dune made with stop motion animation of gummy candy. This is my most ardent wish.
 
But don't they use "telepathy" as a secret gesture composition to be able to have multiple conversations in the same room? I remember this stuff from the books. I only read the first three books, so my knowledge is somewhat limited, but I do remember this gesture conversation.
The only time telepathy is mentioned in Dune is when the Emperor mistakenly thinks the Reverent Mother is being affected by Alia when she says "get out of my mind". He is corrected in the dialogue with Alia - "I've already said I cannot read minds, but one doesn't need telepathy to read your intentions" - so no, there isn't any telepathy in Dune.
 
Have you read the book?

Nope, never.

Keep moving those goal posts!

If you mean keep reiterating my exact same position, then I shall.

I must have imagined this:

Not at all, I've said the exact same thing at least 3 times already.

The characters in Dune are not literally speaking English, or using 20th century terms. This is no different than the Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, Star Wars, or the basic assumption of 99% of science fiction and fantasy. They are using some future language. Herbert used 20th century terms that are analogous to the concepts being expressed in order to effectively communicate the story's themes to the reader. The ONLY thing that I care about, insofar as I judge the adaption, is in how effectivelly it conveys those same themes through a different medium. If it choses not to do so by making direct linguistic references to 20th century analogous cultures, I don't have any issue with that.

I also can't at the moment understand, even after this many posts why you do have an issue with that, outside of the assumtion that you interpreted Herbert's analogies literally, ignoring the context of the book. But that's even more baffling to me when you make this claim:

You really don't do context based analysis, do you.

You seem to be the one insisting that we ingore the context of the book, so I'll just leave it to you to clarify before responding.
 
Last edited:
The telepathy of the Lynch movie is merely a devise of exposition and it isn't in the books at all. Common misconception - the Bene Gesserit aren't psychic, they merely have honed perceptual and body control skills in order to fool people into thinking they are.
I agree. That said, it's not entirely incorrect to say there are psychic powers in Dune; the prescience granted by the spice could be considered a psychic ability.
 
I agree. That said, it's not entirely incorrect to say there are psychic powers in Dune; the prescience granted by the spice could be considered a psychic ability.
Yes and no. It is prescience, which in itself seems to be psychic, but it is an impact of the spice, melange and other sources. It is also part of what allows Guild Navigators to do their job. However, how this is described is not so much about uncapping the hidden powers of the mind as much as opening up the awareness of how space time can be perceived. It is akin to an ant walking around on a 2D surface becoming aware of a 3D perspective all of a sudden.
 
The characters in Dune are not literally speaking English, or using 20th century terms. This is no different than the Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, Star Wars, or the basic assumption of 99% of science fiction and fantasy. They are using some future language. Herbert used 20th century terms that are analogous to the concepts being expressed in order to effectively communicate the story's themes to the reader. The ONLY thing that I care about, insofar as I judge the adaption, is in how effectivelly it conveys those same themes through a different medium. If it choses not to do so by making direct linguistic references to 20th century analogous cultures, I don't have any issue with that.
That is one of the most ignorant, wilfully ignorant and deliberately stupid comments I've ever seen about a discussion of a book. How do you expect me to react with any sort of seriousness when you come out with something like that? You might as well say that Conan really did turn up by night at Robert E Howard's home to tell his stories. And John Watson really did tell Arthur Conan Doyle all about the exploits of Sherlock Holmes.

I'll give you that Lord of the Rings was written by a linguist who invented a few languages for his own amusement, then decided to write a story about the place those languages were from. The rest? you're quite literally talking nonsense.

These works aren't translations. They were written in English by native English speakers. The odd term, word or phrase gets invented, or in the case of Dune, borrowed from other languages as well. To suggest otherwise is absolutely ridiculous on your part. Science fiction writers tend invent words to suggest concepts that we don't have English terms for. Like Fyunch (click) in The Mote In God's Eye. There's a good article on this stuff on larryniven dot net.

http://www.larryniven.net/stories/words.shtml

Seriously, I want to you to explain to me how it is possible to translate from some future language back into modern English. I read Chaucer in college and you're basically saying that in the 12th century, a writer could have dreamed modern English and worked it backwards into Middle English. Or that the magical elements of La Morte D'Arthur was Mallory seeing some of what we can do now and reverse translating it back to Middle English.
 
So...you do literally believe a completey foreign culture millennia in the future speaks modern English.

Huh.

 
Last edited:
Banner: The best cosmic horror & Cthulhu Mythos @ DriveThruRPG.com
Back
Top