Equipment In a Medieval World - Anyone Got a 10' Pole Handy?

[ffilz]

No doubt. But 30 miles is about 50 km, so I suspect that most armies would simply walk far less, and be in some shape to defend themselves if necessary.
Like, see what the legionnaries were totting around and how much they were marching per day...30 kms on Roman roads and about half that or campaign, IIRC? (That's about 20 miles in Imperial). But they were lugging around enough stuff to set a fortified camp at the end of the day.
So, 2/3rds of your max speed, and they were very much ready to fight at the end of the day. "At the end of their day's march" was still considered a good time to fight an enemy army if you could, I say (summoning Sun Tzu as a witness), but they weren't defenceless due to exhaustion by any means.

When it comes to speed, yes, about 50 km per day, and no more than 3 days, seems like the best you can get people to give - that's what I've found on the abilities of Japanese shinobi (and it was considered an exceptional achievement because that's cross-country*). Granted, they were usually carrying messages, or running from people, so speed and success were the same thing (and if they got chased down, that was quite probably it, not because of tiredness, but because the pursuers had superior numbers anyway...and if they can chase you down, they're obviously no more tired than you).

*Although it pays to remember those people grew up carrying weights and marching cross-country. Oh, and they were often natives of the area, or had access to friendly local guides, so they did probably take comfortable pathways as much as possible, so maybe not all of this was cross-country.

PCs have a habit of wanting to travel faster than armies... But the Roman army is a good data point for setting up travel rules.

 

[Gringnr]

Technically a city (yes, really - it has a cathedral). Unfortunately no liches as far as I'm aware.

I used to live just down the road from a place called Pratt's Bottom.

There's a Lichfield in Arizona as well.

In Patrick Wetmore's wonderful Anomalous Subsurface environment, there are some bullet points of advice for players to get into the OSR mindset. Among them:

"All that goofy stuff like 10' poles, spikes and mirrors is on the equipment list for a reason."

"Please tell me somebody bought some rope. Never go anywhere without rope"

 

[raniE]

This is largely an issue of vocabulary.

When you write 'city' what is the word actually being used in the original language? @gentlemanbear 's point basically holds for the use of the word 'civitas' in Latin documents. There were lots of settlements in many parts of medieval Europe with urban privileges, charters, etc. that didn't get to be a 'civitas' in formal Latin writing. So, if you want to be a stickler for Latin usage, they were not 'cities.' But this is a bit of minutiae that is usually only relevant when working closely with Latin chronicles or legal sources.

Stad, in Swedish. And it was always granted by royal decree, usually as a way to control trade in an area. There was no other "city" concept, so either Sweden had no cities, or it had cities that didn't have a bishop.

 

[raniE]

Depends on the game world. Ben Robbins's West Marches posited a truly wild wilderness, sure, the low level forays may have been within a day's travel, but eventually the PCs would travel many days into the wilds. Glorantha's Prax is notably void of way stops and even if you came upon a tribal encampment, they would be quite wary of strangers.

Yeah, but then you get into what's medieval (I would not classify Glorantha as particularly medieval for instance), and of course, the where and the when, or the like where and like when. 14th century Italy would be massively different from 6th century Britain or 11th century Poland. So if we're talking densely populated prosperous late medieval area, you can probably get by without a tent or cooking implements. Sparsely populated post-apocalyptic early medieval landscape with the few surviving urban centers having lost most of their inhabitants? Yeah, bring on the tents and the pots.

 

[Ravenswing]

No doubt. But 30 miles is about 50 km, so I suspect that most armies would simply walk far less, and be in some shape to defend themselves if necessary.
Like, see what the legionnaries were totting around and how much they were marching per day...30 kms on Roman roads and about half that or campaign, IIRC? (That's about 20 miles in Imperial). But they were lugging around enough stuff to set a fortified camp at the end of the day.
So, 2/3rds of your max speed, and they were very much ready to fight at the end of the day. "At the end of their day's march" was still considered a good time to fight an enemy army if you could, I say (summoning Sun Tzu as a witness), but they weren't defenceless due to exhaustion by any means.

And they also weren't carrying 100 lb loads. The "Marius' Mules" legions of the late Republic were notorious for the loads they heaped on the infantry ... which were about 50 lbs each. (Those legions also had large baggage trains as well.)

So if we're talking densely populated prosperous late medieval area, you can probably get by without a tent or cooking implements. Sparsely populated post-apocalyptic early medieval landscape with the few surviving urban centers having lost most of their inhabitants? Yeah, bring on the tents and the pots.

Pretty much.

Beyond that, though, if I was a serious low-tech adventurer (I haven't gotten to be a player in a fantasy game since the early 1990s), well ... PCs are generally well-off. If I was ramrodding logistics for a party, we would be rocking multiple loadouts. If we knew we were traveling exclusively in settled country, sure: no need for heavy gear. Maybe a couple pots, a couple of shelter halves, a hatchet or two, spare oats for the mounts -- Stuff Happens, after all -- but nothing that couldn't go in the saddlebags of the critters we were riding.

But if we knew we were going to be in howling wilderness? Sure, we'd have the Forester tents, but I'd make damn sure to pack a Baker for anything short of arctic-level travel. We'd have two weeks' worth of food, a full range of cook gear, an axe, a mattock, a block and tackle, and a couple of machetes. A couple dedicated pack mounts to haul it, and I'd make sure to hire a couple reliable mercenaries whose duty it would be to maintain base camp and keep an eye on the critters. Hm. I might do a blog post on that kind of loadout.

 

[ffilz]

And they also weren't carrying 100 lb loads. The "Marius' Mules" legions of the late Republic were notorious for the loads they heaped on the infantry ... which were about 50 lbs each. (Those legions also had large baggage trains as well.)



Pretty much.

Beyond that, though, if I was a serious low-tech adventurer (I haven't gotten to be a player in a fantasy game since the early 1990s), well ... PCs are generally well-off. If I was ramrodding logistics for a party, we would be rocking multiple loadouts. If we knew we were traveling exclusively in settled country, sure: no need for heavy gear. Maybe a couple pots, a couple of shelter halves, a hatchet or two, spare oats for the mounts -- Stuff Happens, after all -- but nothing that couldn't go in the saddlebags of the critters we were riding.

But if we knew we were going to be in howling wilderness? Sure, we'd have the Forester tents, but I'd make damn sure to pack a Baker for anything short of arctic-level travel. We'd have two weeks' worth of food, a full range of cook gear, an axe, a mattock, a block and tackle, and a couple of machetes. A couple dedicated pack mounts to haul it, and I'd make sure to hire a couple reliable mercenaries whose duty it would be to maintain base camp and keep an eye on the critters. Hm. I might do a blog post on that kind of loadout.

Nice thoughts... I need you in my games... Too bad you're on the wrong coast...

 

[TJS]

I've seen some of those Youtube military weapons guys talk about fantasy adventuring and what would be realistic and they basically seem to come to the same conclusions.

Brigandine, or chain shirt and helmet, Side arm - probably a sword, a shield and either a pole arm or longbow (because you can't carry both).

Which is reasonable if you're based on the premise that adventuring is some version of a hiking trip, but I feel like the conclusions should lead to questioning the premises.

If it would be useful to have both a pole arm and a longbow, then you'd want to make sure that you had a way to transport both. If full plate is availabe and would be helpful in staying alive, but is impractical for hiking, then you would make sure you didn't need to hike.

I could see the kind of assumptions they make making sense under certain circumstances, ie if the PCs begin as deserters from medieval style armies.

A lot of the time what is left out is the very idea of 'adventuring' is just weird. If it's exploring a D&D style dungeon then it's basically inherently unrealistic, so it doesn't seem worth worrying about too much. If it's something else then the context would matter.

Really if you're exploring dangeous wilderness full of dangerous monsters and hostile bands of humanoids, then 3 to 5 individuals really seems like a ridiculous impratically small number. I can't imagine Vikings navigating their way across the rivers of Russia in a boat with only that many people, they'd be just too vulnerable. I would think you'd want enough armed warriors to make potential enemies consider that taking you on directly would be too costly to be worth it.

The closest thing I can think of in history to adventuring is the movement of armed warbands like the vikings.

 

[Ravenswing]

Nice thoughts... I need you in my games... Too bad you're on the wrong coast...

Aw, thanks. Let's just say I internalized "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics" from an early age.

Besides, I've got another anecdote; this is what keeping up with logistics will get you.

The fantasy boffer LARP I was in was mostly college and high school students. I was 29 when I joined in its second season, and the second oldest player in the outfit. And then there was Amanda. She joined nine years later with her bunch. She'd just finished her sophomore year in college, and her gang was all mates from their small town high school. With the exception of one casual player, all the others were boys.

And their camping standards (despite all being Boy Scouts from a rural area) were decidedly ... low: everyone pile into a couple pup tents with sleeping bags, wear only a single change of clothing for a long weekend of adventuring, subside on dry bagels and soggy Doritos, and in general follow the hygienic practices of teenage boys loose without adult supervision for the first time in their lives.

And then she runs into me, with my 10' x 17' three-room tent, a futon, pillows, quilts, carpeting, clean sheets, numerous changes of garb. And I'm making a beef stir-fry over rice on my Coleman (I've got plenty, want some?) and hot water for cocoa (I've got plenty, want some?) and washing (save me some for my shave, but sure, help yourself), and I just set some sandalwood incense going, and ... that was over 24 years ago now.

Take it from me: paying attention to your loadout when you go adventuring can get you a spouse.

 

[Brock Savage]

With military conditioning and good health it's surprising how much we can carry and how easily we can recover. In the Marines we would go on a "hump" or loaded march which is basically a brisk walk with a full load of whatever you need to operate in the field. In 1993 boot camp we had a day long hump with rifle and 65 lb pack in boots and utes that ends with an ascent up "The Reaper" or "Mount Motherfucker" (pictured below). It was brutal, my blouse was completely soaked with sweat and caked with salt! Even though I thought I was wiped out, I would bounce back after every ten minute rest period and be ready for more. And this is from the perspective of someone who went into artillery, infantry Marines double down on this stuff at SOI.



I thought I was done with humps after boot camp but nope. There was a saying in the Corps "hump light, freeze at night"- we would bust our brains trying to think of what we could leave out of our pack to lighten the load and not severely regret it later. Vietnam-era Marines would hump 80-100 lbs into the fucking jungle day in day out on patrols. No wonder they ditched the flak jackets.

 

[raniE]

I've seen some of those Youtube military weapons guys talk about fantasy adventuring and what would be realistic and they basically seem to come to the same conclusions.

Brigandine, or chain shirt and helmet, Side arm - probably a sword, a shield and either a pole arm or longbow (because you can't carry both).

Which is reasonable if you're based on the premise that adventuring is some version of a hiking trip, but I feel like the conclusions should lead to questioning the premises.

If it would be useful to have both a pole arm and a longbow, then you'd want to make sure that you had a way to transport both. If full plate is availabe and would be helpful in staying alive, but is impractical for hiking, then you would make sure you didn't need to hike.

I could see the kind of assumptions they make making sense under certain circumstances, ie if the PCs begin as deserters from medieval style armies.

A lot of the time what is left out is the very idea of 'adventuring' is just weird. If it's exploring a D&D style dungeon then it's basically inherently unrealistic, so it doesn't seem worth worrying about too much. If it's something else then the context would matter.

Really if you're exploring dangeous wilderness full of dangerous monsters and hostile bands of humanoids, then 3 to 5 individuals really seems like a ridiculous impratically small number. I can't imagine Vikings navigating their way across the rivers of Russia in a boat with only that many people, they'd be just too vulnerable. I would think you'd want enough armed warriors to make potential enemies consider that taking you on directly would be too costly to be worth it.

The closest thing I can think of in history to adventuring is the movement of armed warbands like the vikings.

You get “adventurers” of some stripe after, and during, most major (and many minor) wars. The Thirty Years war saw loads of mercenaries wandering the German countryside, operating as bandits when they didn’t get paid. The Golden age of piracy (or the third part of the golden age, if you want to include events in the 17th century) happened after the war of the Spanish succession ended and left a bunch of privateers unemployed but really skilled at attacking merchant shipping. Jesse James was a bushwhacker in the American civil war, then continued as a bandit afterward. The Hells Angels (and other outlaw motorcycle gangs) were established immediately post WWII. Wars ending always leave a supply of men who have been trained to kill and are either not able or not willing to go back to normal society.

 

[TJS]

You get “adventurers” of some stripe after, and during, most major (and many minor) wars. The Thirty Years war saw loads of mercenaries wandering the German countryside, operating as bandits when they didn’t get paid. The Golden age of piracy (or the third part of the golden age, if you want to include events in the 17th century) happened after the war of the Spanish succession ended and left a bunch of privateers unemployed but really skilled at attacking merchant shipping. Jesse James was a bushwhacker in the American civil war, then continued as a bandit afterward. The Hells Angels (and other outlaw motorcycle gangs) were established immediately post WWII. Wars ending always leave a supply of men who have been trained to kill and are either not able or not willing to go back to normal society.

Yes. That's true. But again wouldn't these be more warbands rather than small groups? Things like the free companies or the Ecorcheurs of the hundred years war - I don't think they would have generally spent a lot of time wandering around in small groups. There's a lot more advantage to being in a larger group that can actually hold territry to ransom.

I'm sure you would get small groups wandering in all the chaos, but I'm not sure they would generally stay as small groups for long. The motivation for a small group of mercenaries turned bandits would probably be to join up with a larger band as soon as the opportunity arose.

 

[opaopajr]

Logistics: the devil is in the details.

I am often the one in the RPG party packing a list that reads out like I am off to colonize the next hill. In real life I travel much lighter with a lot of plastic cards that can summon civilization to take me back safely. I like roughing it with complimentary shampoo & conditioner.

I actually thought the designation of Trade Goods in 5e D&D was a good introduction. It reminds you that valuables of "useless added weight" most likely is not. Trading with different 'levels' of civilization ('types' is perhaps a better word) can be a lifesaver. Currency & value varies by context.

 

[Ravenswing]

I actually thought the designation of Trade Goods in 5e D&D was a good introduction. It reminds you that valuables of "useless added weight" most likely is not. Trading with different 'levels' of civilization ('types' is perhaps a better word) can be a lifesaver. Currency & value varies by context.

Absolutely. How much do a few strings of glass beads, a couple yards of silk brocade, a spool of copper wire or a half-dozen steel knife blades weigh? Sure, let's squeeze 10 lbs worth on the pack mule ...

Heck, in games that allow for Area/Cultural knowledge skills, it'd be a snap to know that the Yraah barbarians really prize crimson and green feathers (wearing them is a mark of status), and while their artisans are skilled, good steel tools are at a premium on the steppes.

 

[raniE]

Yes. That's true. But again wouldn't these be more warbands rather than small groups? Things like the free companies or the Ecorcheurs of the hundred years war - I don't think they would have generally spent a lot of time wandering around in small groups. There's a lot more advantage to being in a larger group that can actually hold territry to ransom.

I'm sure you would get small groups wandering in all the chaos, but I'm not sure they would generally stay as small groups for long. The motivation for a small group of mercenaries turned bandits would probably be to join up with a larger band as soon as the opportunity arose.

Well, in old school games you often end up with a pretty large group. My Lamentations of the Pope game has four PCs who left the Spanish army at the end of the last Italian war, but they just hired five more people, and will likely keep doing so.

In games with less morally grey characters, you can find inspiration from other groupings too. An adventuring group might be a Knight and his retinue, or a small group of pilgrims traveling together, or a small group of performers, etc.

 

[arjunstc]

I should probably learn more about Medieval Germany, as a way of comparison and contrast to Britain of the same time period. Any recommendations for idiot-friendly crash courses on the subject?

Not sure how useful they are compared to other already mentioned, but I read these two:

Amazon product

Power and Property in Medieval Germany

"Power and Property in Medieval Germany" published on by Oxford University Press.

oxford.universitypressscholarship.com

I was able to use some of the information from the books in my game, like having a travel insurance system on the royal roads.

 

[Ravenswing]

Also, here's the equation for whether small groups can swan around unmolested. Let's say you have four PCs trotting down a trail, on horseback -- something worth stealing right there -- and a dozen bandits are eyeing them. Only two of those PCs are visibly armored. A third is wearing wizard's robes. All four are obviously armed.

However much the bandits are feeling their oats, unless they're singularly stupid, they have to figure that a number of them are going to die trying to rob those travelers. ("An' see dat medallion th'wizard's wearin'? She be a Wizard of Fruningen, and she got master's stripes! I don' wanna be torn in half by demons!")

It doesn't take much. Back about 20 years ago, my wife had a dentist's appointment that was unfortunately in a very rough part of Boston, one heavily frequented then as now by addicts, and with a high crime rate. So she took her hardwood walking stick -- which is about as big as she is. And coming up on the sidewalk to three toughs loitering around, one muttered "She looks like she knows how to use that." My wife has excellent hearing, and when she got up to them, she drawled, "I do."

 

[xanther]

Absolutely. How much do a few strings of glass beads, a couple yards of silk brocade, a spool of copper wire or a half-dozen steel knife blades weigh? Sure, let's squeeze 10 lbs worth on the pack mule ...

You call those trade goods? Strong drink, fine wine, and meat treats...now those be trade goods to your dungeon dweller...

On loadout...there is the party before the mule and after A little different when you have to hump it all yourself versus when you have man's second best friend. IIRC introduction of about 1 mule per maniple was a revolutionary roman military innovation. Now in a fantasy game there might be mules especially bred for/or special training for dangerous environments...I hard wire that into my rules with trained animals rules, will have to post that in its own thread.

On camping gear...there is decent comfort for a modern person and there is what a medieval person would not think twice about...change of clothes? What is that Yes my GF can personally attest that you can live with only two sets of clothes for many months when on expedition.

Food always fascinated me, from decades of backpacking every ounce counted (that would be decagrams for you non-imperial sorts) and starting as a poor student who couldn't afford freeze dried anything discovered that basically desert food is delicious and light because you add the water. Couscous, falafel, just add water bring some olive oil and tahini if you wish, pita also travels well...on the more European side, some dense black bread, hard cheese, jerky, nuts, dried fruit. Others things used to swear off of because often cooked with a stove is rice unless minute rice, just takes too long to cook. And as we focused on mountain ranges...near impossible to really cook rice at 10,000 feet (that's 3000m for more rational unit users).

On shelter...if didn't want the comfort or privacy a good tarp to keep the rain off is probably all you need to carry (if big enough can drape some for a wind break) if bring and axe and willing to set up camp. Weight is always the issue with such things. I bet ex-soldier adventurers are used to being wet and sleeping in the open on hard ground...or ex-sailors for that matter.

EDIT: forgot that in a fantasy world there could also be amazing materials for such tarps, with giant spiders you have access to lots of spider silk, spider silk tarps, spider silk rope...would blow away even our modern nylon equivalents. Also there are always job openings for giant spider silk milkers...amazing benefits that vest after only 6 months I tend to look at all fantasy monsters that way, if there is a possible way to exploit them humans will find a way...so work hard on '"ecology" to rein that in.

 

[xanther]

...
However much the bandits are feeling their oats, unless they're singularly stupid, they have to figure that a number of them are going to die trying to rob those travelers. ("An' see dat medallion th'wizard's wearin'? She be a Wizard of Fruningen, and she got master's stripes! I don' wanna be torn in half by demons!")
...

Love it! Just because I make Wizard Guilds a bigish thing in my setting...with different levels of badges/symbols, and the guild protects it's own. But perhaps they may still be robbed if the bandits follow the conventions of ransom or are members of a Thieves Guild...all sorts of min and max ransoms and tolls...all depends on ones member status of course...we can be civilized here, Welcome to The Continental Wizard Wick.

 

[Alai]

Yeah, but then you get into what's medieval (I would not classify Glorantha as particularly medieval for instance), and of course, the where and the when, or the like where and like when. 14th century Italy would be massively different from 6th century Britain or 11th century Poland. So if we're talking densely populated prosperous late medieval area, you can probably get by without a tent or cooking implements. Sparsely populated post-apocalyptic early medieval landscape with the few surviving urban centers having lost most of their inhabitants? Yeah, bring on the tents and the pots.

Glorantha's been canonically a couple of Ages from medieval since 1978, if not since 1966 when it was first conceived. And Prax is certainly a sparsely populated post-apocalyptic landscape with the few surviving urban centers having lost most of their inhabitants, but arguably more like the neolithic, as far as indigenous production of any material culture is concerned.

RuneQuest equipment lists have had their own eyebrow-raising moments. Bronze Age crossbows?! Blame the Chinese and/or the Mostali, apparently. Rapiers? Depends what you mean by a rapier -- two-foot bronze sticker, or a four-foot steel one.

The RQ3 equipment list is I think the first one I recall that outlined with things would be cheaper in a Large City(TM), which ones more expensive, and vice versa for the various degrees of more rural locations. Which is kinda key to why cities (in the human geography sense) even exist, of course!

Now, my home town received city privileges in 1585, so after the medieval period, but close enough for government work. It didn’t become a bishop’s seat until 1772 (although it was a superintendency from 1647). Hence, yes, this was true in some places, but not in all. Hell, for more than half of what we would consider the medieval period of 473-1492 my home country wasn’t Christian, which is true for a lot of Europe.

If he'd been hard up for other examples, Wittgenstein could have used "city" to illustrate concepts that lack feasible definition, and categories that aren't! Is it a settlement with a cathedral? A royal charter? A form of government? Being able to carve roast suckling pig with the edge of dinner plates without suffering... whatever the traditional punishment for doing that without royal permission? (Looking at you, Segovia.) Or a particular size and density of population.

Technically a city (yes, really - it has a cathedral). Unfortunately no liches as far as I'm aware.

Not even in the "dead" sense typonymically, never mind undead. Apparently the actual(?) etymology is from P-Celtic for "grey wood". And to use it as a pop-up sample... cathedral, yes; charter, yes; local government, no; carving roast sucking pig with pig, no; size, kinda small by modern standards. Your city may vary!

This is a time period that's been stretched to encompass 9th century Scotland and 14th century Tuscany

You could on the one hand demand to Bring Back the Dark Ages (something that we seem to be working on with great gusto as a planet, culturally speaking!). Or you could regard the Early Middle Ages, High Middle Ages, and Late Middle Ages as three distinct things. Fuzzily distinct at best, but that's the nature of the territory.

 

[Alai]

They'll poke you with their spear from afar while singing "you can't touch this".

Anyone else getting flashbacks to the Friends ep "The One With The Giant Poking Device"?

These are still pole weapon vs pole weapon unfortunately (it's difficult to find images in the treatises about say sword vs spear). These from Joachim Meyer's book (he only published one, and it has a long title.

I've seen HEMA and Japanese martial arts people look at staff vs sword, but very much focusing on jo type lengths. (Their moral seemingly typically being, the staff has a slight reach and flexibility advantage.) Wouldn't really apply to longer staffs/spears/polearms in the same way.

I'm glad I am not a warrior during that era because I would never seriously consider someone in MC Hammer pants to be a credible threat and pay for that mistake really quickly.

See, this is why in hardcore warrior-monastery traditions the training takes so long! Never mind seven years drawing the bow before you get your first arrow, think of the mental discipline needed not to fall about laughing at the parachute pants!

Battle is won by skill, tactics, and logistic. The problem is the logistics of carrying around long poles in a dungeon environment. In addition an adventuring band are skirmishers not formation fighter. A party will be lucky to have more than two warrior let along six.

Finally if one desires and have the means and opportunity you could always take out a dungeon with a expedition as opposed to exploring with a small party. A large group is assembled outside of the dungeon and sent down as organized teams to clear out the place room by room, monster by monster.

Obviously the most important people of logistics here is how many can fit around a gaming table with talking all over each other (more than the tolerable maximum). The logic of dungeoneering with 3-5 people tends to unspool rapidly the more one looks at it. But Tolkien, small parties, mines ("a mine?!"), who's to argue? But even taking possible considerations like only a certain number of sufficiently heroic (and daft) enough to do the heavy lifting, and no depth chart for the "skill positions", it's quite the struggle to see why a small screen of NPC heavy infantry isn't a massive tactical winner.

Backpacks. You’d probably wrap your stuff in a blanket and sling it over a shoulder (not great for quick retrieval) or have it in a pack animal.

But great for getting rid of it in combat quick! You don't want to be strapped to your 40lbs of dutch oven, sack of flour, etc if you're going to (realistically) be penalised for trying to move nimbly with it.

 

[Alai]

I would think carrying around a ten foot pole all the time and especially in cramped spaces in a dungeon would be almost impossible without it breaking or being lost.

Butbutbut... the ANSI/ISO dungeon of 10' squares! axiomatically the pole fits everywhere!

Though it makes one wonder... if the point is to defeat the 10' size of pits, range of traps, etc... shouldn't you be investing an eleven-foot pole?

Agree given that design parameter cast iron marbles would work, may double as back up sling stones. Also the joke potential alone makes iron balls my choice.

Free brass monkey with those if you buy a hundredweight. Warranty may be void in low temperatures.

Shops in my fantasy settings don't stock any "adventuring gear". If it isn't used daily on a farm, it will not be in-stock. That being said, a craftsman can be found in any town that will craft you a ten-foot pole or a sword, and have it ready in a day or two. Ball bearings? Oh no, not in a medieval world. Other things that serve the same purpose, like polished wooden dowel rods, make more sense.

This is the "settlement size" thing again, essentially. If you're literally on a farm, that's it, sure. Cheapest place to get your milk or bread, though! In a village of farmers there will be a blacksmith (ObGlorantha/bronze age, redsmith ), and your "professional services" pyramid will now likely include the local religious functionary (see local theology and metaphysics for details). As you hit towns (actual historical this being, someplace with a perennial market), and then cities, your range of specialist goods and people will go progressively on up.

 

[robertsconley]

Obviously the most important people of logistics here is how many can fit around a gaming table with talking all over each other (more than the tolerable maximum).

Only has an effect on # of players. Has nothing to do with the number of characters involved in the campaign.

The logic of dungeoneering with 3-5 people tends to unspool rapidly the more one looks at it. But Tolkien, small parties, mines ("a mine?!"), who's to argue?

The idea of the dungeon as a place of adventure is a setting conceit originating with the Blackmoor campaigns. Sure there was some close equivalent in literature notably the Hobbit (Erebor) and the Lord of the Rings (Moria). But folks like Arneson, Megarry, and Gygax made the idea it own thing where adventure can be found in multiple levels of mazes with rooms filled with monsters, treasures, and traps. Like all such conceits rooted in fantasy and the fantastic there is a bit of unreality to it all.

However once its stipulated that there are indeed underground mazes with rooms filled with monsters and treasures what are the different ways to approach this? Hence the discussion in the earlier parts of the thread.

But even taking possible considerations like only a certain number of sufficiently heroic (and daft) enough to do the heavy lifting, and no depth chart for the "skill positions", it's quite the struggle to see why a small screen of NPC heavy infantry isn't a massive tactical winner.

The previous posts that I and others made outlined the various consequences to having organized troops within the dungeon. Since none of the previous points were addressed , the ten cent answer I can give is that the more characters that are present in a party, the process of exploration become more like an expedition. Which require more logistics and tactics planning. Most players I know don't want to deal with that even if it is highly abstracted. Plus there are loyalty risks to having a larger group of characters involved. Most players in my experience rather be part of a small skirmish group. Yes that means greater risk but there is less upfront costs and everybody gets a greater reward at the end.

 

[robertsconley]

However much the bandits are feeling their oats, unless they're singularly stupid, they have to figure that a number of them are going to die trying to rob those travelers. ("An' see dat medallion th'wizard's wearin'? She be a Wizard of Fruningen, and she got master's stripes! I don' wanna be torn in half by demons!")

For folks that are interested I have a free PDF for classic D&D about Bandits and Brigands (and their differences) and a few details of the rural culture that surrounds their activities.

Bandits & Brigands

 

[Ravenswing]

You call those trade goods? Strong drink, fine wine, and meat treats...now those be trade goods to your dungeon dweller...

On camping gear...there is decent comfort for a modern person and there is what a medieval person would not think twice about...change of clothes? What is that Yes my GF can personally attest that you can live with only two sets of clothes for many months when on expedition.

On shelter...if didn't want the comfort or privacy a good tarp to keep the rain off is probably all you need to carry (if big enough can drape some for a wind break) if bring and axe and willing to set up camp. Weight is always the issue with such things. I bet ex-soldier adventurers are used to being wet and sleeping in the open on hard ground...or ex-sailors for that matter.

Well, but I'm not trading to dungeon delvers. I'm trading to barbarians. They already have all the meat they want, and a pint of booze weighs a pound. If I've got 15-20 lbs to devote to trade goods, I'm not going to blow that allotment on stuff the tribe's going to finish off in fifteen minutes.

As far as gear goes: well. A go-light backpacker does have to measure every ounce. And a soldier or a sailor lives under conditions of some privation ... because they have to do so.

Adventurers don't count there. For one thing, parties of PCs don't have quartermasters skimming off the top and keeping them ill-clad and hungry, and they don't have superior officers who think they need to be toughened up. They can carry pretty much what they want, what they can afford, and what they can conveniently carry.

But more importantly, unless you're talking dungeon fantasy and fiat (in which case we don't need to have this convo at all), look. I'm a PC. I know for a certain, absolute fact I'm going to have to fight for my life, often at long odds, often against horrific foes. I am going to want every minute of good sleep I can get before I do that. I'm going to want to be as warm as I can be, as well-fed and well-equipped as I can afford, as hydrated as I can manage. I cannot, cannot afford to be the PC wizard who botches the incantation through sneezing halfway through, because I'm sick from wearing wet socks, slush-encrusted boots, rotten food and mediocre sleep. The definition of proving myself a tough hombre is for my group and I to get back to civilization alive.

 

[Ravenswing]

Love it! Just because I make Wizard Guilds a bigish thing in my setting...with different levels of badges/symbols, and the guild protects it's own. But perhaps they may still be robbed if the bandits follow the conventions of ransom or are members of a Thieves Guild...all sorts of min and max ransoms and tolls...all depends on ones member status of course...we can be civilized here, Welcome to The Continental Wizard Wick.

Eh, I've got all manner of signifiers in my campaign. A number of the wizardly orders have distinctive garb, symbols or other trappings: see a lady with a hefty book chained to her waist, you're dealing with a sorcerer of the Almuensin Order. A wizard wearing a turban and flowing robes in red, black or white? A Wizard of Loh, the most powerful of wizardly orders. (Except if that wizard is toting a sword too, he's lying; Wizards of Loh take vows not to use physical weapons.) And so on.

If we're talking about fighters, there's an honor called "paktun" that mercenary companies vote; a paktun is supposedly the best and brightest of the mercenary lot. They wear a silver medallion strung on a rainbow ribbon, with a silver ring holding the ribbon together at the back. It's customary, if a paktun kills another paktun, for the winner to take that silver ring and string it onto his or her own ribbon. So if those bandits happen to see a fighter riding by wearing a pakai, and there are a couple dozen rings jingling from it, that's a sure sign that you Do. Not. Want. To. Mess. With. This. Bloke.

 

[robertsconley]

But more importantly, unless you're talking dungeon fantasy and fiat (in which case we don't need to have this convo at all), look. I'm a PC. I know for a certain, absolute fact I'm going to have to fight for my life, often at long odds, often against horrific foes. I am going to want every minute of good sleep I can get before I do that. I'm going to want to be as warm as I can be, as well-fed and well-equipped as I can afford, as hydrated as I can manage. I cannot, cannot afford to be the PC wizard who botches the incantation through sneezing halfway through, because I'm sick from wearing wet socks, slush-encrusted boots, rotten food and mediocre sleep. The definition of proving myself a tough hombre is for my group and I to get back to civilization alive.

We do have some real world examples although from later centuries. Mountain Men of the early 19th century, gold rush miners starting with the California Gold Rush. While equipment was important these groups were willing to suffer privation in order to get the wealth they "knew" that was there.

 

[Fenris-77]

How about a Swiss Army pole? Two five foot poles that screw together but can also serve independently as the handles for a variety of excavation implements, only the heads of which needs be packed.

 

[ffilz]

How about a Swiss Army pole? Two five foot poles that screw together but can also serve independently as the handles for a variety of excavation implements, only the heads of which needs be packed.

The question would still be can you make a good enough screw to make a solid connection, and now it needs to work across multiple implements. I'd probably allow it in a D&D campaign, though maybe send you on a quest to a dwarf smith to do the precision work for you.

p.s. My RuneQuest Thieves Guild campaign counts as "D&D" for something like this... And considering that the dwarves in Glornatha have cannon, probably you could get a dwarf smith there to do something like this also...

 

[Fenris-77]

The question would still be can you make a good enough screw to make a solid connection, and now it needs to work across multiple implements. I'd probably allow it in a D&D campaign, though maybe send you on a quest to a dwarf smith to do the precision work for you.

p.s. My RuneQuest Thieves Guild campaign counts as "D&D" for something like this... And considering that the dwarves in Glornatha have cannon, probably you could get a dwarf smith there to do something like this also...

Of course it needs to be solid dwarf work! When you absolutely, positively, need to screw two things together, accept no substitutes.

 

[xanther]

....
But more importantly, unless you're talking dungeon fantasy and fiat (in which case we don't need to have this convo at all), look. I'm a PC. I know for a certain, absolute fact I'm going to have to fight for my life, often at long odds, often against horrific foes. I am going to want every minute of good sleep I can get before I do that. I'm going to want to be as warm as I can be, as well-fed and well-equipped as I can afford, as hydrated as I can manage. I cannot, cannot afford to be the PC wizard who botches the incantation through sneezing halfway through, because I'm sick from wearing wet socks, slush-encrusted boots, rotten food and mediocre sleep. The definition of proving myself a tough hombre is for my group and I to get back to civilization alive.

Well lucky no need to roll to cast a spell in D&D...

I figure more PCs want to live the good life because tomorrow may be their last. On comforts, certainly that city-slicker wizard needs a blanket or even pillow to rest and recover spells, but us barbarians if the ground is dry that is good enough Guess it is what one is used to comfort wise, never needed a sleeping pad when younger, and not nearly as much sleep as today. I tend to think on what didn't bug me when young, factor in I was just an active country boy but no where near living a life of labor, not anything like a pre-industrialized world...then figure most fightin' PCs can do that plus, more like deal with what special forces training is,...but not your spell casting types, unless a Druid No fiat for me, you are not going to be able to recover spells (or greatly reduced) if shivering, drench, hungry etc.

Not so certain sleep deprivation would impair the dedicated, it's like an occupational constant of doctors and they appear to get by. Perhaps this is where WIS, a potentially otherwise dump stat for a fighter or thief, comes in to keep ones focus. I would hate to be that thief who misses a trap because they didn't get enough sleep.

Another reason always had my characters pack light is reaction time if surprised upon the trail...we got major reaction penalties, basically lucky if only one round of surprise if humping a heavy pack. Then again if talking dungeon fantasy one oft can be a veritable Christmas tree of weapons and gear with very little negative consequence

 

[Ravenswing]

We do have some real world examples although from later centuries. Mountain Men of the early 19th century, gold rush miners starting with the California Gold Rush. While equipment was important these groups were willing to suffer privation in order to get the wealth they "knew" that was there.

I submit the situations aren't comparable.

The mountain men and the miners were willing to suffer privation because they had to. Men who were already rich didn't dive into those lives. Furthermore, many of them were at the end of extended supply chains of many hundreds of miles, and in many cases months to get much of anything, and that much only at horribly inflated prices. They had to make do with what they had or what they could improvise, and they had a mortality rate to match.

This doesn't remotely describe the vast number of fantasy campaigns, where many a player feels aggrieved if there isn't a convenient city nearby for a save point, where just about any gear the equipment tables list is there to be had off-the-rack, and at list price. We don't expect that we're going to have to replace broken down weapons and armor with ones we forge ourselves, from metal we mine ourselves. (Heck, how many systems impose wear and tear on equipment in the first place?)

 

[ffilz]

For what it's worth, at least some systems do consider the impact of not having the setup to get good sleep. Izirion's Enchiridion of the West Marches is one example.

 

[xanther]

(Heck, how many systems impose wear and tear on equipment in the first place?)

Not many as it can be more trouble than it is worth.

For me, from my ole Aftermath type days, things have a Quality ranging from 1-5...mostly no need to note on a sheet, average gear is a 3, poor gear a 2, high end (elf, dwarven) a 4, etc.

If some situation comes up where you are pushing your gear, have been really abusing it etc. Roll a number of dice equal to the Quality rating and get some needed number of successes (i.e. a 5 or 6) or it breaks fails, etc. Heck I do the same thing if you are pushing yourself, you just roll against Will Power.

I often impose this in a fantasy where an ordinary weapon is hitting something very hard, must say I love the player fear when every hit they need to roll, adds a certain flavor of this enemy is hard to hit. In my PA games it figures more often.

Or if you want to swing your big ass sword in a tunnel and not take the to hit penalty associated with limited movement, lets roll to see if it breaks when it hits the wall.

So just one number, adjudicate when needs to be used.

EDIT (Nov. 6): as to outcomes if it fails..it is simply a loss in Quality. Repair is simply restoring it to original quality. If Quality goes to 0 it is non functional. If Quality goes into the negatives it is scrap, the more negative it is the less that can be salvage. All that by adjudication.

 

[Acmegamer]

One of the things I really like about The Forbidden Lands is wear and tear of items. Plus the ability to repair and make or improve items.

 

[opaopajr]

EDIT: forgot that in a fantasy world there could also be amazing materials for such tarps, with giant spiders you have access to lots of spider silk, spider silk tarps, spider silk rope...would blow away even our modern nylon equivalents. Also there are always job openings for giant spider silk milkers...amazing benefits that vest after only 6 months I tend to look at all fantasy monsters that way, if there is a possible way to exploit them humans will find a way...so work hard on '"ecology" to rein that in.

One of my favorite things to do was use all the other (not human) intelligent creatures and try to imagine what they would do to exploit their local resources.

Goblins and kobolds are fantastic for getting this thought experiment started, but so many others are great for this too! I even like extrapolating what would their comforts and distinguishing items would be. What would a goblin wear in the dark to distinguish itself to attract a mate? What children games or toy dolls would kobold children create with all the extra prey bones and fur pelts lying around? It's a fun exercise in world building creativity.

 

[AsenRG]

I agree about variety, but not about Eurocentrism. In fact, I think it's the other way around. The Middle Ages were really a period of European history, not of world history. So talking about medieval India, China, etc. is more Eurocentric than not. Those civilizations have their own trajectories and periodizations. Even for Islamic cultures neighboring on Europe, the label 'medieval' as a chronological marker doesn't make a great deal of sense, though you do see it occasionally in book titles, etc.

Obviously the Abbasid Caliphate, or Mali Empire, or the Song Period in China are worth studying--and more to the point, making games about. But I'd say it's better to leave them out of whatever counts as 'medieval.'

Agreed. But when I say "Medieval China", I mean "the China of the time corresponding to European Middle Ages". If not, I'd say the exact dynasty (or bunch of dynasties).

Unfortunately, there are not a lot of good introductory books on Medieval Germany in English. General textbooks on medieval history will of course cover Germany--personally I like Rosenwein's Short History of the Middle Ages as an up-to-date intro--but not in much depth.

For broader surveys, there is a newish one that I've not personally seen: John Sommerfeldt's The Flight and Fall of the Eagle: A History of Medieval Germany, 800-1600 (Hamilton, 2016). It's very brief (about 180 pages of text) and to judge by its table of contents, it focuses on political and religious history. The author has written much about the Cistercian movement, though usually outside Germany. Beyond that, it seems that books I read a long time ago are still what's available, for the most part. I remember liking Alfred Haverkamp's Medieval Germany, 1056-1273, 2nd ed. (Oxford 1992) and Horst Fuhrmann's Germany in the High Middle Ages (Cambridge Medieval Textbooks 1985). Both men were distinguished German historians of their generation. Tim Reuter's Germany in the Early Middle Ages, c. 800-1056 (Routledge, 1991) is good but a bit iconoclastic. All of these are still in print, despite being decades old.

Benjamin Arnold's Medieval Germany, 500–1300: A Political Interpretation (MacMillan 1997) is a brisk survey, within the limits the title suggests. Arnold has written a lot on Medieval Germany in English, but most of his books are more specialized studies. I particularly liked his German Knighthood, 1050-1300, but I'd only recommend it if you are really interested in the ministeriales. I found F.R.H. Du Boulay's Germany in the Later Middle Ages (Athlone 1983) interesting and actually drew on it for a RQ III game that took WFRP material and moved it back into a Mythic Europe.

On the more social-history side, Heinrich Fichtenau's Living in the Tenth Century: Mentalities and Social Orders (Chicago 1991) is a very fine and engaging study by another top German medievalist; it is a good deal stronger on ideas and 'mentality' than material realities or economics. Tom Scott’s Society and Economy in Germany, 1300-1600 (Palgrave, 2002) is more introductory, though it mainly deals with the period after 1400. Joachim Bumke's Courtly Culture: Literature and Society in the High Middle Ages (California 1991) and Werner Rösener's Peasants in the Middle Ages (Illinois 1992) both mostly focus on Germany.

Thank you for the recommendations!

So many books, so little time...

Left out one step. I tended to puke at least once during such events and I wasn't alone. lol.

That's a detail most systems also avoid... hmm, anyone who's got The One Ring 2e, does it have "puking" as a possible result of a forced march across rough terrain?

PCs have a habit of wanting to travel faster than armies... But the Roman army is a good data point for setting up travel rules.

Well, commanders want the same. And that's why I brought up shinobi, which are IMO the closest thing we have to PCs.
For other data points, look up Army Messengers, if you can find data on those.

Yeah, but then you get into what's medieval (I would not classify Glorantha as particularly medieval for instance)

I still believe the Ancient World is a better entry point for Glorantha, but that's me.

And they also weren't carrying 100 lb loads. The "Marius' Mules" legions of the late Republic were notorious for the loads they heaped on the infantry ... which were about 50 lbs each. (Those legions also had large baggage trains as well.)

I never said that did? I said those are realistic speeds of well-trained, physically fit young men marching without excessive rest across rugged terrain while carrying what they could.
Realistically, PC parties should have a baggage train as well (and possible camp followers as well).

Beyond that, though, if I was a serious low-tech adventurer (I haven't gotten to be a player in a fantasy game since the early 1990s)

I know the pain of the Eternal Referee Syndrome...
If I ever get around to organizing a game over Discord, I'd send you an invite!

You get “adventurers” of some stripe after, and during, most major (and many minor) wars.

True. That's why some of my favourite settings include USA in the 70ies/early 80ies and Russia in the 90ies.

Butbutbut... the ANSI/ISO dungeon of 10' squares! axiomatically the pole fits everywhere!

Though it makes one wonder... if the point is to defeat the 10' size of pits, range of traps, etc... shouldn't you be investing an eleven-foot pole?

Amusingly, some old-school groups reportedly did that. It usually lead to GMs setting the fireball center to 12 feet from the door, I've been told...

Well lucky no need to roll to cast a spell in D&D...

Actually, in the best variant of D&D*, there is...and Ravenswing runs GURPS, where there is as well.

*DCC.

For what it's worth, at least some systems do consider the impact of not having the setup to get good sleep. Izirion's Enchiridion of the West Marches is one example.

TOR.

 

[Ravenswing]

Realistically, PC parties should have a baggage train as well (and possible camp followers as well).

You'd think, right? Rich as your average PCs are, they ought to be able to hire a standing train: a few drovers, a couple hunters to help maintain watch security, and a camp cook. The drovers set up the tents and things, the hunters go find meat for the pot, the cook gets the evening meal up and running, all is good. Heck, toss in a masseuse to give the party members a rubdown. A week's pay for the whole kit and kaboodle won't run any more than the cost of a measly Puissance/+1 sword.

 

[AsenRG]

You'd think, right? Rich as your average PCs are, they ought to be able to hire a standing train: a few drovers, a couple hunters to help maintain watch security, and a camp cook. The drovers set up the tents and things, the hunters go find meat for the pot, the cook gets the evening meal up and running, all is good. Heck, toss in a masseuse to give the party members a rubdown. A week's pay for the whole kit and kaboodle won't run any more than the cost of a measly Puissance/+1 sword.

Exactly!
Why so many people don't do that, there's surely a reason that's just not readily apparent to me. Surely you'd even fight better if you're rested, fed and possibly clean?

 

[Sosthenes]

You'd think, right? Rich as your average PCs are, they ought to be able to hire a standing train: a few drovers, a couple hunters to help maintain watch security, and a camp cook.

The porters guild isn't too fond of random encounters.

 

[AsenRG]

The porters guild isn't too fond of random encounters.

"Honest, he wasn't eaten by a dire wolf we encountered randomly! He was eaten by wolves after falling from a high ledge!"