ESD loses Call of Cthulhu license

[Lessa]

Well, in France he did - there is a new Elric RPG, Mournblade.
Reviews:

• http://www.departmentv.net/2016/06/rpg-first-look-mournblade/
• https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4012-mournblade-starter-set-is-mine/

Wow, that art.

 

[3rik]

You have no idea how existentially sad the concept of an empty burrito made me.

An empty burrito is basically just a tortilla de harina, which is not even a real tortilla... Extremely existentially sad indeed!

 

[The Butcher]

Fuck, I could really go for a burrito right now.

 

[Dumarest]

What do you know, Chaosium (despite being “correct” in the evaluation of several posters here) backed down and worked something out with ESD.

That's certainly a bizarre misreading of "ESD finally cooperated and agreed to pay part of what it owes and Chaosium is going out of its way to try to make this project succeed."

 

[Simon Hogwood]

That's certainly a bizarre misreading of "ESD finally cooperated and agreed to pay part of what it owes and Chaosium is going out of its way to try to make this project succeed."

I don't even see that ESD is doing that much.

 

[Raleel]

That's certainly a bizarre misreading of "ESD finally cooperated and agreed to pay part of what it owes and Chaosium is going out of its way to try to make this project succeed."

this is not how I read this.

1) in 2017, Ulule ran and ESD agreed to pay part of the kickstarter. paragraphs 3 and 4
2) ESD finally replied back. Communication went dead again when payment came up. paragraph 7
3) ESD has paid no royalties. paragraph 8
4) chaosium is doing a unilateral thing. No quid pro quo. They grant the license for a product. Chaosium is doing this out of kindness and love of the fans, but they don't expect they will get any money. paragraph 9.1
5) ESD can't sell the product outside of the Ulule AND we reserve the right to go after them for royalties anyways. So, it doesn't relieve ESD of the obligation to pay up. it just extends the license for a single product so they can get it out the door in some fashion.
6) Chaosium has tried, but ESD hasn't paid them anything nor ever given them sales numbers (presumably from the kickstarter).

So, short of it, ESD has been granted an extension for the product to fulfill it, unilaterally by chaosium. They don't expect to get money, but will go after it anyways. There has been no agreement with ESD, no cooperation from ESD. Indeed, little communication from ESD.

opinion:

Spoiler

despite Chaosium's (MOB's) tone in this letter (and I HATE it. he's airing dirty laundry and playing a political game), It is actually "generous". It's a low risk thing for them. they've made themselves look magnanimous (ahem), and demonized someone else, and they aren't expecting any money, and will pursue it anyways.

I'm interested to know the legal implications of licensing on a kickstarter and the product never gets produced.

 

[Jetstream]

What do you know, Chaosium (despite being “correct” in the evaluation of several posters here) backed down and worked something out with ESD.

... Are you reading any of these things Chaosium has written at all? Because it sounds like you're just reading the headlines.

 

[The Butcher]

That's certainly a bizarre misreading of "ESD finally cooperated and agreed to pay part of what it owes and Chaosium is going out of its way to try to make this project succeed."

ESD said as much in the December 12 update at the Ulule page, which was linked in the OP.

Spoiler

despite Chaosium's (MOB's) tone in this letter (and I HATE it. he's airing dirty laundry and playing a political game), It is actually "generous". It's a low risk thing for them. they've made themselves look magnanimous (ahem), and demonized someone else, and they aren't expecting any money, and will pursue it anyways.

The sane (and to me, obvious) thing to do.

 

[AsenRG]

There has been mention of Chaosium reaching out to Michael Moorcock for another edition of Stormbringer, for example.

Well, one can hope, certainly!

Well, in France he did - there is a new Elric RPG, Mournblade.
Reviews:

• http://www.departmentv.net/2016/06/rpg-first-look-mournblade/
• https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4012-mournblade-starter-set-is-mine/

...it does seem interesting, indeed. Not sure how I feel about the system, though.

Wow, that art.

It seems strangely familiar, doesn't it?

 

[Trippy]

Feel free to try and convince him otherwise. I usually just talk to him about cats and stuff.

Could you tell him that Stormbringer was the first RPG I ever bought (the GW one) and Elric of Melniboné, the first fantasy novel I ever read. Could you mention to him I also own a vinyl copy of The New Worlds Fair and have at least downloaded Roller Coaster Holiday. Could you mention to him he remains my favourite fantasy author…..and I would LOVE to see a new, high production value RPG made in his name and with his blessing?!

Ta.

 

[AsenRG]

Could you tell him that Stormbringer was the first RPG I ever bought (the GW one) and Elric of Melniboné, the first fantasy novel I ever read. Could you mention to him I also own a vinyl copy of The New Worlds Fair. Could you mention to him he remains my favourite fantasy author…..and I would LOVE to see a new, high production value RPG made in his name and with his blessing?!

Ta.

And you could maybe add that he's not the only one, though I favour other versions of the Eternal Champion? But yes, Moorcock books were among the first fantasy ones I ever bought, when I was probably 10 or so. Though I don't remember whether Moorcock or Howard were my first contact with the genre (after Bilbo Baggins and LotR).

This, in turn, lead to some amusing situations when I assumed that Sapkowski, Howard and Moorcock were the standard examples of classical fantasy. In fact, I persisted with that notion for quite a while. I even remember recruiting for the first PbP game I'd ever run with the title "classical fantasy"...over a decade later.

It was set in a Rome-like city-state with steam engines powered by elementals, soul-sucking magicians, professional ninja-like mercenaries, and zero non-humans. Some plot elements were borrowed by Glen Cook, too, while others were inspired by Moorcock.

Some players pointed out that this isn't classical fantasy. My answer was basically that then the term is being used wrong, as this is undoubtedly what should be considered classical, based on the meanings of "relating to the first class or rank, and exhibiting timeless quality".
And either way, I ended up running it to a successful conclusion.
(Since I know you're going to ask, the system was Wushu, though applied with a stricter GM/players delineation. Either way, the players liked it enough to stick with it for about a year).

 

[CRKrueger]

Heh. Chaosium figured shitcanning a product that was sitting on the docks ready to ship would have been a fucking fiasco, and potentially ruined France as a market, nothing more. They could screw over Loz and Pete, Glorantha/RuneQuest isn’t all that big, Call of Cthulhu is something different.

They could...
1. Not get paid and fuck over all the KS backers.
2. Not get paid, and make the KS backers happy.
3. Make the KS backers happy, and hopefully get paid.

They’re obviously gunning for #3. I would have liked to see the look on MOB’s face when he was told they weren’t going with the “dickless jackhole” move. It must have pained him greatly.

 

[AsenRG]

Heh. Chaosium figured shitcanning a product that was sitting on the docks ready to ship would have been a fucking fiasco, and potentially ruined France as a market, nothing more. They could screw over Loz and Pete, Glorantha/RuneQuest isn’t all that big, Call of Cthulhu is something different.

They could...
1. Not get paid and fuck over all the KS backers.
2. Not get paid, and make the KS backers happy.
3. Make the KS backers happy, and hopefully get paid.

They’re obviously gunning for #3. I would have liked to see the look on MOB’s face when he was told they weren’t going with the “dickless jackhole” move. It must have pained him greatly.

Well, given all that we know (not much), that is one possible way to look at things...
But I'm afraid your view might be kinda biased.

At least I'm sure we can agree that it wouldn't have been good for sales of L'Appel de Cthulhu (the backers reaction seemed kinda clear on that account).

My personal opinion about the whole thing is, if they can resolve it so both the IP holders get paid and the product gets delivered, it would be for the best!

 

[CRKrueger]

But I'm afraid your view might be kinda biased.

I’m considering the source based on the last time a licensee supposedly violated terms of service. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they had another French Publisher lined up but needed to shitcan this company first, so are using a late KS as an excuse and are lying about every detail...

You know, like they did last time.

 

[The Butcher]

I’m considering the source based on the last time a licensee supposedly violated terms of service. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they had another French Publisher lined up but needed to shitcan this company first, so are using a late KS as an excuse and are lying about every detail...

You know, like they did last time.

Precisely.

It was probably their new licensee who called them and begged them not to shit where they intend to eat.

Pretty rich to see a few self-avowed Mythras fans applaud nuChaosium as they fuck over ESD over, to the same tune TDM got shafted. But that’s life for ya.

 

[Krimson]

Could you tell him that Stormbringer was the first RPG I ever bought (the GW one) and Elric of Melniboné, the first fantasy novel I ever read. Could you mention to him I also own a vinyl copy of The New Worlds Fair and have at least downloaded Roller Coaster Holiday. Could you mention to him he remains my favourite fantasy author…..and I would LOVE to see a new, high production value RPG made in his name and with his blessing?!

Ta.

He actually posts on Facebook in the Elric of Melnibone page. Literally anyone can talk to him.

 

[Ronin]

Precisely.

It was probably their new licensee who called them and begged them not to shit where they intend to eat.

Pretty rich to see a few self-avowed Mythras fans applaud nuChaosium as they fuck over ESD over, to the same tune TDM got shafted. But that’s life for ya.

If that's the case. This seems like a lot of conjecture on people's/internets part. Is Chaos in the wrong? Is ESD in the wrong? At this point it seems a he said, she said. Though communication wise it would seem Chaos seems to be acting like a real business, or at least in good faith. But Maybe not. This would seem to be the right time to employee the "Wait and see" method.

 

[Trippy]

He actually posts on Facebook in the Elric of Melnibone page. Literally anyone can talk to him.

I had a quick check and realised I am actually following that page….but it doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic. Maybe I should post more often on it?

 

[Simlasa]

I would have liked to see the look on MOB’s face when he was told they weren’t going with the “dickless jackhole” move. It must have pained him greatly.

Regardless of whatever is going on with ESD, MOB just puts me off whenever I read something from him.
Who is that guy anyway? Why does he seem to be the public face of Chaosium? Is it just that he put up a lot of money when forming nuChaosium?

 

[Trippy]

Regardless of whatever is going on with ESD, MOB just puts me off whenever I read something from him.
Who is that guy anyway? Why does he seem to be the public face of Chaosium? Is it just that he put up a lot of money when forming nuChaosium?

He is one of the co-owners of Chaosium.

 

[K_Peterson]

Pretty rich to see a few self-avowed Mythras fans applaud nuChaosium as they fuck over ESD over, to the same tune TDM got shafted. But that’s life for ya.

Well, it looks like I've missed out on some info in the OP. The linked text to the press release, and the recent follow-up on Chaosium's blog (Curse you, Rpg Pub Light. Linked text seems to be harder to identify than in previous versions of this board's software).

 

[Simlasa]

He is one of the co-owners of Chaosium.

I assumed as much, but is he at all a creative force? Or just a prominent investor? He's NOT a particularly adept communicator...

 

[Trippy]

I assumed as much, but is he at all a creative force? Or just a prominent investor? He's NOT a particularly adept communicator...

Notwithstanding your opinion, he seems mainly involved with promotion. The creative director is Jeff Richard.

 

[Bilharzia]

Regardless of whatever is going on with ESD, MOB just puts me off whenever I read something from him.
Who is that guy anyway? Why does he seem to be the public face of Chaosium? Is it just that he put up a lot of money when forming nuChaosium?

Are you kidding? He wrote Sun County and regularly for Tales From the Reaching Moon, he's been involved with Chaosium, Glorantha and RuneQuest professionally for over 20 years. I'm no fan of the new Chaosium and Moon Design's decisions but it's not as if their team have appeared out of nowhere.

 

[Simlasa]

Are you kidding? He wrote Sun County and regularly for Tales From the Reaching Moon, he's been involved with Chaosium, Glorantha and RuneQuest professionally for over 20 years. I'm no fan of the new Chaosium and Moon Design's decisions but it's not as if their team have appeared out of nowhere.

I was never a Glorantha fan so I'm guessing his name passed me by. I've only taken notice of him since the changeover and his online persona has rubbed me wrong at just about every turn.

 

[Raleel]

T Trippy Simlasa it says in the signature there

Michael O'Brien
Head of Licensing
Vice President - Chaosium Inc.

He also has a Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_O'Brien_(game_designer)

 

[Bilharzia]

Pretty rich to see a few self-avowed Mythras fans applaud nuChaosium as they fuck over ESD over, to the same tune TDM got shafted. But that’s life for ya.

You don't have to be a fan (of Chaosium) to distinguish between what they did and didn't do.

 

[Simlasa]

T Trippy Simlasa it says in the signature there

Michael O'Brien
Head of Licensing
Vice President - Chaosium Inc.

He also has a Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_O'Brien_(game_designer)

Yeah, I was asking more in the sense of what Bilharzia answered, where he came from and such. Sorry if I'm not being properly respectful of the guy.

 

[Raleel]

Yeah, I was asking more in the sense of what Bilharzia answered, where he came from and such. Sorry if I'm not being properly respectful of the guy.

I don’t really care one way or the other. Figured I’d just give some backstory. I’m tryign to stick to facts in this anyways. There is way too much unknown here for me to comment, and MOBs communication style is...controversial

 

[AsenRG]

If that's the case. This seems like a lot of conjecture on people's/internets part. Is Chaos in the wrong? Is ESD in the wrong? At this point it seems a he said, she said. Though communication wise it would seem Chaos seems to be acting like a real business, or at least in good faith. But Maybe not. This would seem to be the right time to employee the "Wait and see" method.

Real Business=/=necessarily acting in good faith...

But then again, it's indeed a he said, she said, as you put it in your post.

 

[Belle Sorciere]

I had a quick check and realised I am actually following that page….but it doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic. Maybe I should post more often on it?

There's a page that's inactive and a group that's active. He apparently posts in the group, but under a pseudonym.

 

[boulet]

At least I'm sure we can agree that it wouldn't have been good for sales of L'Appel de Cthulhu (the backers reaction seemed kinda clear on that account).

I almost forgot what the name is like in French. It's been a source of puns for so long. I shall share some! Even if nobody asked!

For instance l'appel (the call) sounds like la pelle (the shovel).

Also it makes you think of the car brand, Opel.

Or even La Belle (like in Beauty and the Beast)

 

[AsenRG]

I’m considering the source based on the last time a licensee supposedly violated terms of service. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they had another French Publisher lined up but needed to shitcan this company first, so are using a late KS as an excuse and are lying about every detail...

You know, like they did last time.

So, if your theory is right, they're going to change their French publisher soon?

 

[Bilharzia]

Yeah, I was asking more in the sense of what Bilharzia answered, where he came from and such. Sorry if I'm not being properly respectful of the guy.

I'm quite soured on Chaosium largely because of what happened with RQ6 but the communication style doesn't help, I don't think in terms of being respectful or not but I know who people are and what they've done. A while ago on the Chaosium discord I tried to inform a couple of posters about TDM and Mythras because they described Mythras as a fantasy heart breaker ripping off RuneQuest by cloning it as Mythras.

 

[Bilharzia]

So, if your theory is right, they're going to change their French publisher soon?

Chaosium already stated they've found another publisher.

 

[AsenRG]

Chaosium already stated they've found another publisher.

OK, that at least seems to confirm the CRKrueger theory.
But it's still speculation at best, just a speculation with higher odds of being true.

 

[AsenRG]

I'm quite soured on Chaosium largely because of what happened with RQ6 but the communication style doesn't help, I don't think in terms of being respectful or not but I know who people are and what they've done. A while ago on the Chaosium discord I tried to inform a couple of posters about TDM and Mythras because they described Mythras as a fantasy heart breaker ripping off RuneQuest by cloning it as Mythras.

Do they also call PF a D&D heartbreaker?

 

[Bilharzia]

Do they also call PF a D&D heartbreaker?

If you've got a decent marketing, art and layout budget to produce big glossy colour books you're a transcendent genius, if not, then clearly there's something wrong with you.

 

[Leon ap Hywel]

Precisely.

It was probably their new licensee who called them and begged them not to shit where they intend to eat.

Pretty rich to see a few self-avowed Mythras fans applaud nuChaosium as they fuck over ESD over, to the same tune TDM got shafted. But that’s life for ya.

Except that’s not what’s happening from what’s been linked to so far. Can I keep using your house if I don’t pay you rent? How about I keep dodging you when you come to collect? Wait though I have performing pets so you can’t kick me out as I’m making money using your house as a pet theatre and I have to feed them...at your expense?

If someone shows me something to the contrary I’ll be all in criticising nuChaosium as we’re calling them. I’ll not knock a business behaving like a business though.

 

[CRKrueger]

OK, that at least seems to confirm the CRKrueger theory.
But it's still speculation at best, just a speculation with higher odds of being true.

Hey, how about that. They want the license back and Hey! Whaddya know, the people who have it are in violation...weird how that seems to happen Every.Single.Time.