Exalted: Any opinions?

FeralToaster

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Fun fact: I'm coming to appreciate more and more the setting without Exalts. Maybe I should run a game with heroic mortals only, possibly using the 1e Storyteller's companion?
Hmm, Scarred Lands setting also from Onyx Path is what you are describing. 100 years after the primordial war was won and the titans banished nations rebuild in a world fundamentally altered/diminished by their clash with the titans. Mortals struggle with the daily question of whether it was worth it to cast down the titans. It is a cool setting for DnD that was clearly used to workshop a lot of the elements thta went into Exalted.
 

spittingimage

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That would be true if any of the 5 official systems so far (the one in the 1e Quickstart, 1e wwithout Power Combat, 1e with Power Combat, 2e, and 3e) was 100% true to the spirit of the setting. Alas, none of them is, IMO...and you could argue the system in the quickstart actually comes closest (though I'd disagree with that, as well).
You might be interested in Qwixalted. It was developed over at TBP, an expanded ruleset based on the 2E quickstart. I've played the Daiklave version (the two creators differed on some factors and each developed in a slightly different direction) and I think it's what I'd use to run Exalted if I ever went mad and decided to try it.
 

Chris Brady

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The system is too complex with its charm trees and initiative system for me.
And that's for a player. Imagine for GM for a single 'caste' group, like all Solars or all Dragonblood? Imagine all the work and knowledge of EVERY charm that the major bad guys have, and how they'll interact with the Player's choices? To me, it seems a hell of a lot of work for so little gain.

BUT as always, just in case people forget, or the tone I want to imply does not come across: This is just MY opinion, and if people enjoy the game as is, more power to you, and I sincerely hope you get a lifetime worth of fun out of it.

I don't mind anime elements, or even genre tropes--except giant weapons for people trope. That one drives me NUTS. I want simple, elegant, sane-looking armor and weapons. (Note: I love Record of the Lodoss War OVA, but still am annoyed.) So its labeled "Not my thing," usually.
Personally, I have no issues with great honking weapons (although I freely admit that I like my melee weapons, big, two handed and phallic! Yes, I AM overcompensating, deal.) beyond my fetish, they're very prevalent in most of the mythologies that Exalted draws upon. Indian, Norse, Oriental, all of it have examples of HUGE weapons and the power it requires to wield them. As a species, we do prize raw strength, especially in the West.

I think the other major issue that a lot of people seem to have, and I have to agree, at least to a level of story structure is the Solar Castes. As a group they are 'top dog', and very few people want to start out there. There's no challenge at the top, it's a destination, and end point, not a journey in itself. The implied power level of them also make it hard to relate to them as playables.

Also, there's a bit of a power cap to each caste. Dragonblood will never reach the levels of Sidereals, much less Solars, whereas Sids won't ever reach the level of Lunars who are always one step behind. This is also not fun, for most players (In my experience, I hasten to add), they want to be ABLE to reach those levels, even if they never do, the fact that they CAN is all they need.

That all said, I do want to love Exalted. As a concept and some of the world execution (Before WW went all Grim Dark, as one of the setting designers who took over after, what's his name, Grabowski? Was a HUGE 40K fan, but completely blind to the fact that 40K is a PARODY setting. He just loves the dark and emo aspects, I think his last name was Campbell? I don't keep up with designers, I honestly don't care who makes a product, as long as it's good.) I honestly like it. Hell, I think I might be the only one who likes the War Striders, the giant mechs, in my fantasy, as I LOVE Escaflowne.
 

AsenRG

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Hmm, Scarred Lands setting also from Onyx Path is what you are describing. 100 years after the primordial war was won and the titans banished nations rebuild in a world fundamentally altered/diminished by their clash with the titans. Mortals struggle with the daily question of whether it was worth it to cast down the titans. It is a cool setting for DnD that was clearly used to workshop a lot of the elements thta went into Exalted.
Sounds interesting, and I agree it's similar.
But I only heard about it after having played Exalted for a number of years, so my point of view is slightly different. Frankly, I just don't see what Scarred Lands would give me if I already own the five official systems...:smile:
Apart from the ability to use a d20-based system, which isn't an upgrade to me.

You might be interested in Qwixalted. It was developed over at TBP, an expanded ruleset based on the 2E quickstart. I've played the Daiklave version (the two creators differed on some factors and each developed in a slightly different direction) and I think it's what I'd use to run Exalted if I ever went mad and decided to try it.
I said "official", or I'd have listed Qwixalted, the GURPS conversion made by Aaron Peori (alas, only coveing DBs/mortals), and a few others:wink:.
Yes, I have looked at various conversions and used them to inspired my own.

I always think its interesting when anyone says a game is unplayable in the same thread that people talk about enjoying it. (I've never played Exalted, or even read it, so I don't have an opinion.)
I agree - it's really interesting, right:grin:? Maybe they mean "for me and my group". In which case they're probably right.
And yet it keeps happening...and I expect to see it again this year:shade:.
 

Nexus

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The system is too complex with its charm trees and initiative system for me. I don't mind anime elements, or even genre tropes--except giant weapons for people trope. That one drives me NUTS. I want simple, elegant, sane-looking armor and weapons. (Note: I love Record of the Lodoss War OVA, but still am annoyed.) So its labeled "Not my thing," usually.
I'm a fence sitter on the giant weapon thing. What made me roll my eyes was the developers insistence they their presence had NOTHING to do with Final Fantasy or other anime, but was all because of East Indian/Hindu myth and other fancy smart stuff not still otaku-ist geekism.

Suuurrrre...

But I allow them in my games. The player can decide. They're spending the resources for the Artifact background after all. So Ryoko's Grand Daiklave "God Cutter" a weapon forged to take down Primordials and Behemoths is a huge "Buster sword" that it is light as a rapier in her hands while Dodge the Night caste's weapon "Quietus" is the size of a normal ninja-to enchanted to be unbreakable, nearly weightless and sharper than a scalpel.
 
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AsenRG

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I'm a fence sitter on the giant weapon thing. What made me roll my eyes was the developers insistence they their presence had NOTHING to do with Final Fantasy or other anime, but was all because of East Indian/Hindu myth and other fancy smart stuff not still otaku-ist geekism.

Suuurrrre...

But I allow them in my games. The player can decide. They're spending the resources for the Artifact background after all. So Ryoko's sword "God Cutter" a weapon forged to take down Primordials and Behemoths is a huge "Buster sword" that's light as a rapier in her hands while Dodge the Night caste's weapon "Quietus" is the size of a normal ninja-to enchanted to be unbreakable, nearly weightless and sharper than a scalpel.
Well, to be fair, Indian myth and heroic Chinese stories do list 40-kilograms staffs, enormous maces, and similar stuff that make me think "nobody could really block this, only very clean parries would work, but if you get tired wearing and swinging it, you're as good as dead, because the drop in speed is going to be very sharp". Many of those were even used by mortal or mostly-mortal "strongmen heroes":smile:!

Was Final Fantasy an inspiration? Maybe, maybe not...who cares? To an anime fan or anti-fan, it is going to be Anime Sword:wink:.
Me? I grew up with heroic stories, so to me those are Ancient Hero Weapons...but not all heroes need to use similar ones. Hercules at times seemed to win more fights by grappling than by slashing and bashing (including his first fight, against some stupid snakes that didn't have a chance). For someone that strong, huge weapons were an option, and indeed, he was using a huge club.
But the Nemean Lion had to be strangled, because his skin was invulnerable to weapons.
I wonder how they skinned the body, but I guess it had at least one weak point:grin:!
 

FeralToaster

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Sounds interesting, and I agree it's similar.
But I only heard about it after having played Exalted for a number of years, so my point of view is slightly different. Frankly, I just don't see what Scarred Lands would give me if I already own the five official systems...:smile:
Apart from the ability to use a d20-based system, which isn't an upgrade to me.
Oh I wouldn't call it better or anything more like a different angle on the same concept that allows for the cherry picking of some really cool stuff.
The West was the least well done direction in my group's opinion so we poached a buncha stuff from the Scarred Lands to fill it.

Blood bayou supplement- a corrupted venice being overtaken by mad creatures serving a nefarious master and wanting to have a carnival. This made a cool creepy Bloodborne-like setting for our group to deal with the Lintha.

Crimson Sea supplement lots of cool monsters to poach and a whole sea that has been corrupted by the felling of a titan. Really if you want to hammer home the raw devastating power of the primordials this is a cool setting to have as the place where one surrendered.

Divine and Defeated reads like a Theogony just made for DnD and real overcomes a lot of the simplifications forced on by the alignment system. Not directly related to Exalted but if you wanted the complex divine politics of Yushan between the Gods and the Primordials this is worth a look.
 

Skywalker

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For the record, I totally disagree:wink:.
Ha! I am sitting here between the polar opposites of Jetstream and AsenRG. Feel free to respond to each other direct as I sympathise with both ends of the spectrum and sit comfortably in the middle.

FWIW I have also found that I can satisfactorily play Exalted with Godbound as well. But applying the purist's definition of Exalted, I am happy to recognise that what I play its 100% Exalted and certain details are lost. My game is a good approximation only, but its a load of fun and much more playable. If you are prepared to argue that you can achieve 100% Exalted emulation with an entirely different system approach, shine on you crazy diamond.
 

AsenRG

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Ha! I am sitting here between the polar opposites of Jetstream and AsenRG. Feel free to respond to each other direct as I sympathise with both ends of the spectrum and sit comfortably in the middle.

FWIW I have also found that I can satisfactorily play Exalted with Godbound as well. But applying the purist's definition of Exalted, I am happy to recognise that what I play its 100% Exalted and certain details are lost. My game is a good approximation only, but its a load of fun and much more playable. If you are prepared to argue that you can achieve 100% Exalted emulation with an entirely different system approach, shine on you crazy diamond.
Haha, no:smile:.
I'm arguing I can get closer than the official systems to emulating the Essence and spirit of the setting by using other games, yes:wink:.
But, and that's an elephant-sized "butt" we've got right here, the above depends on your answer of the question "what is Exalted". And no two fans that I know would give the same answer. I suspect everyone who participated in the creation of it would also have differing, though probably similar, answers:tongue:.

So no. I can't get closer if your definition hast become "Exalted (...) as represented in the official systems"...then any attempt would be a failure pretty much by definition.
In this case: have fun using any of the official systems:shade:!

If, however, your definition is closer to mine...
"Exalted is a game set in Creation, a world where everything has a spirit or minor god attached - and indeed, things work as they do because of said spirits.
It is a world beset by the sea of primal chaos, threatened by dead gods, imprisoned titans and negligent spirit bureaucracies, where you can find glorious cities, mad Wyld zones and barren wastelands, all of which are infested by mad cults and merchants tied in a global network. It contains myriads of (fighting for influence, or merely slacking) gods and godesses, spirits, ghosts, chaos-born elves, and demons, as well as humans endowed by the aforementioned powers to become Chosen Ones, wielding powers before mortal ken - and even beyond the ken of the heroes who have the blood of one of said outwordly powers in their veins, but who can hope to become immortal powers in their own right.
It's a huge place, and right now it desperately needs heroes. Luckily, heroism is a power in itself, and new heroics happen every second somewhere in Creation.
Come and play!"
...then, after you'd notice that nowhere do I mention any kind of system....we could talk about ways to achieve it:devil:!

In E/essence, Creation (and all other settings) are to me what the Majestic Wilderlands are to @robertsconley - a setting to be represented by a system, not the other way around.
I'm not saying the other way to play is badwrongfun, mind. I'm merely saying I've decided to opt for that one.
 

Skywalker

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So no. I can't get closer if your definition hast become "Exalted (...) as represented in the official systems"...then any attempt would be a failure pretty much by definition.
In this case: have fun using any of the official systems:shade:!
Thank you. That was exactly the same point that I made :smile:

And FWIW as said I use Godbound these days for my Exalted gaming as I don't believe that you need to stick to the official systems to get a comparable Exalted experience (even though I recognise that its not the exact same experience).
 
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AsenRG

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Thank you. That was exactly the same point that I made :smile:
In which point, I'd agree. I just wouldn't agree that those people are any more "Exalted purists" than me or, possibly, you:smile:.

Also, the term "pure Exalted" makes me think of well-bathed Nexus courtesans, for some reason:wink:!

And FWIW as said I use Godbound these days for my Exalted gaming as I don't believe that you need to stick to the official systems to get a comparable Exalted experience (even though I recognise that its not the exact same experience).
Well, duh, of course it's not:grin:!
But then, you could say that avoiding some parts of the "Exalted-with-the-official-system" experience is usually part of the point of converting in the first place...:tongue:
A secondary goal might be to enrich the experience by adding stuff you ain't got in Exalted's official system (like my Talislanta solution, which allowed freeform Charms, and thus offered more freedom...for the record, nobody wanted to even try perfect effects, due to the -10 penalty).

But whenever I hear of a conversion, avoiding the parts of the experience deemed undesirable is usually near the top of the stated priorities:shade:.
 

Chris Brady

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I'm a fence sitter on the giant weapon thing. What made me roll my eyes was the developers insistence they their presence had NOTHING to do with Final Fantasy or other anime, but was all because of East Indian/Hindu myth and other fancy smart stuff not still otaku-ist geekism.

Suuurrrre...

But I allow them in my games. The player can decide. They're spending the resources for the Artifact background after all. So Ryoko's sword "God Cutter" a weapon forged to take down Primordials and Behemoths is a huge "Buster sword" that's light as a rapier in her hands while Dodge the Night caste's weapon "Quietus" is the size of a normal ninja-to enchanted to be unbreakable, nearly weightless and sharper than a scalpel.
Someone stole Samual Grimm's God-Cutter blade? I knew it was too awesome for my character to keep alone!
 

FreeGamer

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I thought it sounded neat when it was first released. Even with the ridiculous setting bloat, there are still things here or there that I like about the setting. The rules system was a mess and two starting characters could be at very different power levels depending on a few key choices. Even as late as 2e, there were people discussing the few build groups that had proven to be most effective - Invincible Sword Princess, Turtle Build, etc. All because the mote attrition mini-game rules combat after a certain point. If 3e fixed that, I'll never personally find out because the approach of "fixing things by making them even more complicated" doesn't appeal to me at all.

If I cared enough to play in this setting, Godbound would definitely be my first choice. Yeah, the characters aren't Exalted by default, but in the Deluxe Edition there's a section on "Themed Godbound that allow you to customize and flavor the demi-deities of your campaign to fit your own ideas about how they should work- with five worked examples to show you how to create superhuman Exemplars, shapeshifting Proteans, fate-thwarting Undestined, elemental Scions, and patchwork Arrayed." Those examples might not be Exalted exactly, but . . . sounds close enough to me.
 

Lundgren

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My main problem with Exalted isn't the mechanics, but that there is no information I can put in the players hands without it will bring up Sidereals, Infernals, Abyssals, or other things I might want to keep out of a newcomers hands.

I generally want the option to let the players discover the world through play. But I also want to give them some information, so they know enough about the setting to give them at least some chance to make informed decisions. Well, that is, from the point of view of someone from an isolated corner of the map. Not sure how much I would have to write up, in case I ever would find a group for a Realm focused game.

Well, considering all small alterations I'm doing to the settings, I probably wouldn't been able to use their texts even if they hadn't sprinkled so many texts with what they shouldn't know about. :tongue:
 

Nexus

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I thought it sounded neat when it was first released. Even with the ridiculous setting bloat, there are still things here or there that I like about the setting. The rules system was a mess and two starting characters could be at very different power levels depending on a few key choices.
This was a big stumbling point for me. All systems can be 'gamed' but it was particularly pronounced in Exalted (it was in Storyteller in general, IME, but that's a different thread) and IME, pushed an unpleasant, largely binary approach on players make a character that suited the image, background, game expectations and hopes they had or make an Effective character. It didn't help that sometime the advise given in the character generation guide lines left some lacking when the rubber hit the road in actually playing the game as did the, frankly, hype in the setting material about the ability of PCs and assumption among the fanbase that everyone was going for the most efficient 'build" all the time.

OTOH, a fair number of the fans I interacted with over the years found this to be a Feature, not a Bug as did essentially everything being a 'mini-game' in its own right, from character generation to constructing artifacts. But to each their own.
 
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Luca

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I wrote "it's essentially unplayable" because if I tried to start a game with the players I know, it would never leave the character generation stage. I could make it work as a GM with a truly massive time investment on my part, but: why would I, when there's an infinitely better alternative (Godbound) which also requires a small fraction of the effort?

Oh and btw, on Godbound: it is the *ONE AND ONLY* high-powered game of which I know, that actually bothered to answer the question "so what do the characters do, apart from smashing really big monsters?" in a way which is truly helpful for the GM. The Companion part of BECMI D&D also had something like this, but it was expressed solely in terms of feudal lords' holdings with fantasy trappings. Godbound's system of influence and dominion is unmatched in the way it lets you play the far-reaching consequences a party of actual demigods is going to have on the game world.
Monte's Gods of the Fall might have something similar, but I've yet to study it.
 

Lundgren

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My main problem with Exalted isn't the mechanics, but that there is no information I can put in the players hands without it will bring up Sidereals, Infernals, Abyssals, or other things I might want to keep out of a newcomers hands.
And that reminded me of another thing I've picked up from Ex3 (see, see. I don't completely loath the new edition :grin: ). Instead of using the name "Great Curse" when talking to a new player, I'm using the phrase "Essence Fever". The phrase "Great Curse" is however used in quite a few places in 2ed core.
 

Skywalker

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Godbound's system of influence and dominion is unmatched in the way it lets you play the far-reaching consequences a party of actual demigods is going to have on the game world.
This part of Godbound is amazing and we are going to use it if we play Exalted with the official system as it can be bolted on with ease using the official system. I personally loved how Dominion can be spent to change the world or create artifacts as it allowed the players to create characters that effected the world in different ways ie through a personal deeds or through wider and more subtle changes.
 

Malleustein

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My first impression was that of an interesting setting and concept tied to a rules system so bad it was fascinating to behold.

As time went passed, supplements and subsequent editions were released, my opinion changed to it being a frustratingly inconsistent setting tied to a rules system so bad it caused sanity loss.

I suspect the writers were drugged, locked in isolation, subjected to sleep deprivation and routinely beaten with sticks while working on this game.

It has been many years since I last tried to play it. But not enough years. There may not be enough years before the heat death of the universe.
 

AsenRG

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My first impression was that of an interesting setting and concept tied to a rules system so bad it was fascinating to behold.

As time went passed, supplements and subsequent editions were released, my opinion changed to it being a frustratingly inconsistent setting tied to a rules system so bad it caused sanity loss.

I suspect the writers were drugged, locked in isolation, subjected to sleep deprivation and routinely beaten with sticks while working on this game.

It has been many years since I last tried to play it. But not enough years. There may not be enough years before the heat death of the universe.
Come on, Malleustein, don't hold back! Tell us how you really feel about the game:grin:!
 

James Gillen

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Never played Exalted but it always felt the same case as Shadowrun from what I hear - awesome setting marred to awful rules that somehow grabbed players like a Stockholm Syndrome and now they feel obliged to use even if down there they know it's shit.

But it actually seems worse here, because Shadowrun is actually played while it seems Exalted is more talked about than played.

Makes sense?
Shadowrun is actually played?

jg
 

Nexus

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I suspect the writers were drugged, locked in isolation, subjected to sleep deprivation and routinely beaten with sticks while working on this game.
Bergstrom alone was enough to give that impression. Her Fair Folk and Sidereal material practically drove me to therapy. OTOH, personal interaction with her pleasant. She came across as a professional good natured woman, maybe a little too impressed by her own wit and creativity but not in a disagreeable way. Besides, I've had other professional writers and artists tell me a pinch of arrogance is needed to hold your work up to the some harsh and often unforgiving light of public judgement.

With so many contributors over the years though the setting to come to feel a little schizo. The "rule of cool" is a fine rule of thumb but one person's cool is another's lame as Hell and some things just don't click together. Sometimes Exalted felt like several different game sold with matching covers and art as some sort of bizarre social experiment/performance art/practical joke. And EVERYONE that played knew how it 'truly' was and seemed to view any divergence from their opinions and preferences as heresy.
 
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Lundgren

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Her Fair Folk and Sidereal material practically drove my to therapy.
Not sure I ever will actually be able to wrap my head around how the Fair Folks is supposed to work. Still, watching some quite high energy Story-Now players at a convention gave me quite some inspiration on how to use them :grin:

With so many contributors over the years though the setting to come to feel a little schizo.
As I understand it, the writers of 2ed had very little direction even from the start. Then, diverging more and more as it went on (and I think some later writer misunderstod previous writers, or intentionally brought things in new directions). So I can really understand why people coming in early gets really disappointed with it.

The "rule of cool" is a fine rule of thumb but one person's cool is another's lame as Hell and some things just don't click together.
Then there are people like me that isn't interested in "rule of cool" at all. Being mainly interested in verisimilitude and "culture gaming", it kind of require to break most of it apart and build it up again.

Sometimes Exalted felt like several different game sold with matching covers and art as some sort of bizarre social experiment/performance art/practical joke. And EVERYONE that played knew how it 'truly' was and seemed to view any divergence from their opinions and preferences as heresy.
Well, I still hope that's just because how many online discussion places work, and they actually are in the minority; just being the loudmouths that are heard. Making everyone else giving up with the discussion. While I don't have much hope of people being interested in Exalted in the same way as I am, I do think this would be a good forum to talk and bounce around ideas.
 

AsenRG

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Not sure I ever will actually be able to wrap my head around how the Fair Folks is supposed to work. Still, watching some quite high energy Story-Now players at a convention gave me quite some inspiration on how to use them :grin:
:grin:
Then there are people like me that isn't interested in "rule of cool" at all. Being mainly interested in verisimilitude and "culture gaming", it kind of require to break most of it apart and build it up again.
Actually no, and I say that as someone who found the Rule of Cool to hold interest for less than a couple of months after I first encountered it:smile:.
You just have to cherry-pick your sourcebooks, but as long as you do that, the setting holds together remarkably well:wink:.
 

Lundgren

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You just have to cherry-pick your sourcebooks, but as long as you do that, the setting holds together remarkably well:wink:.
Might be that some of my "reassembly" is because of other alterations and tweakings to the setting. :grin: :tongue:

More often than not, it's just tonal shifts. Or things like tossing out the tell for Lunars (anyone wanting to have cat ears pr something can still have them, by being a beastfolk or of a constructed group) but keeping the 2nd ed mechanic, by tying it to "more powerful gods have some shape shifting abilities, so the they don't use physical appearance to recognize each other."

Tossing out things like her redness knows about Sids, and making Sids being able to change things directly in the Loom gives other small changes.

Fusing The First and Forsaken Lion to his armor as a punishment, for an actual offense, isn't the only thing that in my opinion is contradicting the idea of the Neverborns being barely aware and batshit crazy. So that's quite a chain of things to tweak.

Etc and so on.
 

Nexus

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:grin:

Actually no, and I say that as someone who found the Rule of Cool to hold interest for less than a couple of months after I first encountered it:smile:.
You just have to cherry-pick your sourcebooks, but as long as you do that, the setting holds together remarkably well:wink:.
Jebus, I remember those 'discussions' with people screaming that the inconsistency was a Feature not a Bug and totally on purpose. It came to sound like someone saying "This car works great just don't drive it uphill, faster than 60 mph, in the rain or after midnight. Its perfect unless you cherry pick those little issues!"
 

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Jebus, I remember those 'discussions' with people screaming that the inconsistency was a Feature not a Bug and totally on purpose. It came to sound like someone saying "This car works great just don't drive it uphill, faster than 60 mph, in the rain or after midnight. Its perfect unless you cherry pick those little issues!"
Same could be said of the more rabid partisans of D&D.
 

nitril

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Loved the first edition with all its craziness and mix of mythology. GMd it so much I burned out completely and couldn't even look at the game for years without getting a headache. Picked up 2nd edition and didn't like the new systems especially the charms and the incredibly boring written text in the main book. When the 3rd edition came around I was initially excited but the delays and then the reviews just killed my interest. I have nice memories of the campaign I GMd but I don't think I'll ever return to Exalted.
 

AsenRG

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Might be that some of my "reassembly" is because of other alterations and tweakings to the setting. :grin: :tongue:
OK...but then that's hardly the fault of the game, right:smile:? I mean, you want to change stuff, obviously they couldn't predict what it would be.

More often than not, it's just tonal shifts. Or things like tossing out the tell for Lunars (anyone wanting to have cat ears pr something can still have them, by being a beastfolk or of a constructed group) but keeping the 2nd ed mechanic, by tying it to "more powerful gods have some shape shifting abilities, so the they don't use physical appearance to recognize each other."

Tossing out things like her redness knows about Sids, and making Sids being able to change things directly in the Loom gives other small changes.
Sounds like stuff that wouldn't need mechanic changes, other than excising the mechanic for changes in the Loo of Fate (and the Tell mechanic)?

Fusing The First and Forsaken Lion to his armor as a punishment, for an actual offense, isn't the only thing that in my opinion is contradicting the idea of the Neverborns being barely aware and batshit crazy. So that's quite a chain of things to tweak.
I don't get this. I mean...Why? You think batshit crazy, barely aware beings of supreme power couldn't spot one of their servants' transgression, or would be undisposed to punish him with ultimate cruelty:wink:?
IMO, the Neverborn are only batshit crazy in the sense that they're maniacal - and would thus impose such a punishment on transgressors as only a maniac could invent.
A very powerful maniac...:evil:
Also, I make their awareness dependent on their servants. Thus, the more power you've received from them, the more they're likely to learn stuff that you know. Thus, TFaFL's offense was uncovered to the Neverborn by the only one he couldn't shut down: himself:devil:.
Granted, it might be only my headcanon, but I remember I'd based it on references in the 2e Abyssals book.

Jebus, I remember those 'discussions' with people screaming that the inconsistency was a Feature not a Bug and totally on purpose. It came to sound like someone saying "This car works great just don't drive it uphill, faster than 60 mph, in the rain or after midnight. Its perfect unless you cherry pick those little issues!"
Yeah, I do. But then I just filter those people as "not worthy of my attention".
I mean, if inconsistency is a feature, fine, knock yourself out! But it also means we're looking for different things there's no common ground to speak about...:shade:
Same could be said of the more rabid partisans of D&D.
Or rabid partisans of any RPG ever published, for that matter.
Yes.
Alas.

Loved the first edition with all its craziness and mix of mythology. GMd it so much I burned out completely and couldn't even look at the game for years without getting a headache. Picked up 2nd edition and didn't like the new systems especially the charms and the incredibly boring written text in the main book. When the 3rd edition came around I was initially excited but the delays and then the reviews just killed my interest. I have nice memories of the campaign I GMd but I don't think I'll ever return to Exalted.
That's called a game being damned by its own success, right:grin:?
 

Lundgren

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OK...but then that's hardly the fault of the game, right:smile:? I mean, you want to change stuff, obviously they couldn't predict what it would be.
What? You mean I can't expect game writers to read my mind, and change everything into my liking :shock: Heresy, I say. Heresy. :clown::tongue:

Nah, but it means that I can be a bit blind to stuff others complains about, as I tend to change stuff anyway. :smile:

Sounds like stuff that wouldn't need mechanic changes, other than excising the mechanic for changes in the Loo of Fate (and the Tell mechanic)?
Well, as I specifically uses the existing Tell mechanic to recognize a "soul", of course it don't mean a mechanical change. So that is just a "fluff" change. When it comes to the Loom, maybe.

Most stuff I do are just tweaking the setting, and often just using some existing mechanic. Still, there are questions like on how the Sids interact with The Realm. I don't find Resplendent Destinies being enough for an answer of why the Sids can work as teachers and advisors (I find Ex3 to have a fairly good example, but I don't have Exigens in my interpretations). So that might end up as some mechanical tinkering.

I don't get this. I mean...Why? You think batshit crazy, barely aware beings of supreme power couldn't spot one of their servants' transgression, or would be undisposed to punish him with ultimate cruelty:wink:?
IMO, the Neverborn are only batshit crazy in the sense that they're maniacal - and would thus impose such a punishment on transgressors as only a maniac could invent.
A very powerful maniac...:evil:
Also, I make their awareness dependent on their servants. Thus, the more power you've received from them, the more they're likely to learn stuff that you know. Thus, TFaFL's offense was uncovered to the Neverborn by the only one he couldn't shut down: himself:devil:.
Granted, it might be only my headcanon, but I remember I'd based it on references in the 2e Abyssals book.
Well, in my mind, they have the attention span of a squirrel on speed, can't do any actual reasoning, and their thoughts are in general quite scrambled. So for one of them to figure out TFaFL called in the Fair Folks, and that stopped the Great Contagion, just don't fit my impression of them.

Now, one of them lashing out when the GC stopped, and the lashing out was to fuse TFaFL to his armor is plausible to me. Maybe the Dowager managed to get one of them to lash out at TFaFL (which would as likely been targeted at her instead). So in my head canon, it was an emotional response, and completely forgotten an hour later.

Then, some stuff is not so much changing mechanics, as adding them. So in my setting, the term Deathlord isn't limited to those Solar ghosts (but some started to use the term Lesser and Major Deathlords after the fall of Thorn). Most "Lesser Deathlords" are ghosts that can use Necromancy, but isn't a Nephwrack. I formalized the mechanics after a player picked having a ghost as a 3-dot ally to her ghost-blooded Lunar.
* Get an instruction of what one have to do (these tend to have several unnecessary steps), or have a severe penalty on the steps.
* Have deep theoretical knowledge of Necromancy (enough to be able to teach it to a ghost-blooded or Celestial Exalt).
* Get to the Mouth of Oblivion and the tombs of the Neverborns (and close proximity to Oblivion would definitely risk open ones mind to the whispers of Oblivion).
* Do all the steps except the sacrifice, if the ghost have not already done them earlier.
* Open ones mind to the mad whispers of the Neverborns dreams, without going mad and throw oneself into the void (spend 1WP, and have at least 5 successes on a Integrity + Willpower roll. Each reattempt, if leaving and coming back, require one less success, but at least one).
* Find the right "though-pattern" (spend 1WP, and have at least 5 successes on a Perception + Occult roll. If the ghost was a necromancer back in life, it can give 1-3 bonus dices).
* Applying the pattern (spend 1WP and have at least 5 successes on an Intelligence + Lore roll. If the ghost was a necromancer back in life, it can give 1-3 bonus dices).
* If the ghost wasn't a necromancer in life, this is where the the sacrifice has to be done.

If all that succeed, the ghost is now a Necromancer. However, by opening their mind to the a Neverborn, the ghost have to shrug that off just as if it had been a Whisper of Oblivion. This might be simultaneous to shrugging of a Whisper of Oblivion gained during the trip. ...and it is also the matter of getting out of the Labyrinth.

Failing to shrug of the whispers will mean the ghost becomes a spectre or a Nephwrack.

Quite a bit of the information on how to do it comes from Nephwracks, but with false information added to waste willpower and increase the risk of falling. The information from savants and other "non-belligerent" sources tend to have extra steps in them, just because it isn't really a scientific method so a lot of superstition and guesswork have been part of the process.
[/SPOILER
 

Chris Brady

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My question was how Bergstrom got the job. The writing is so purple, I think it's gotten black in some places...
 

Lundgren

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My question was how Bergstrom got the job. The writing is so purple, I think it's gotten black in some places...
Because it's still just a shade or two more purple than everything else released from WhiteWolf? :wink:
 

Chris Brady

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Because it's still just a shade or two more purple than everything else released from WhiteWolf? :wink:
Most of WW stuff still TRIES to use the rules laid out, as bad as they are, but Bergy? The last time I saw a poetic sperg out like that, my friend forgot his anxiety meds.
 

Lundgren

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Most of WW stuff still TRIES to use the rules laid out, as bad as they are, but Bergy? The last time I saw a poetic sperg out like that, my friend forgot his anxiety meds.
They do?!? :shock: Seriously, I can't tell.

I'm definitely not the target group of the style of writing that comes out of WW or OPP. I like some of the games despite their writing, and I always feel I need to dig out the setting and mechanics from the books.
 

Chris Brady

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They do?!? :shock: Seriously, I can't tell.

I'm definitely not the target group of the style of writing that comes out of WW or OPP. I like some of the games despite their writing, and I always feel I need to dig out the setting and mechanics from the books.
They got some cool ideas, I won't deny I've stolen a few. But rules design ain't one of them.
 

Nexus

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Well, to be fair, Indian myth and heroic Chinese stories do list 40-kilograms staffs, enormous maces, and similar stuff that make me think "nobody could really block this, only very clean parries would work, but if you get tired wearing and swinging it, you're as good as dead, because the drop in speed is going to be very sharp". Many of those were even used by mortal or mostly-mortal "strongmen heroes":smile:!
Sure they do so does allot of mythology include things that aren't 'realistic'. I never said otherwise. Using and embracing the fantastic is kind of the point of mythology.

But claiming that the conventions of popular media and games of the time had NOTHING to do with the using them...in a game/setting that stole brazenly from those sources in other ways including the structure of its mechanics and even its jargon is a load of crap meant to make them sound smarter and more enlightened than the average nerd.

Like the claims the Aberrant didn't have silly costumes like those...*sniff down nose* comic..books. It has, uh, Signature Clothing, yeah that's it.Oh yeah, ignore the super names, powers, groups of evil mutants villains plotting to take over the world, improbable essentially magical technology, etc etc. This Not The Super Fri- errr comic books, you philistines!

*eyeroll*

WW and its spiritual descendants have a tradition of trying to come across as 'smarter, better read, classier, etc' than the audience they're blatantly aiming for as it makes their customer base (or a vocal portion of it) feel superior for using them so they more easily justify or excuse the shitty writing, wonky schedules, asshole staff, etc, to get their superiority fix.

Heck the superiority and maturity of Exalted with its Buster Swords and Magical Battlemechs over mere childish D and D* was a big part of the marketing scheme for Exalted just like the vaunted (and over hyped) 'maturity' of the World(s) of Darkness was a part of its

*D and D isn't my cuppa but I'm not going to pretend mine is the more manly butch and mature way to play Let's Pretend I just enjoy acting like to dudes that wear funny outfits and smack around criminal in equally ludicrous gear, super spies with cybernetic implants and space men shooting ray guns at aliens (between showing the pretty ones more of that Earth thing called kissing) more. :grin:
 
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Lundgren

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They got some cool ideas, I won't deny I've stolen a few. But rules design ain't one of them.
Well, the system in Exalted 2nd ed has quite a few things going for it.
* The pool system can help those not good at math quickly pick together their pool. They don't have to know how to quickly add (4+3)*2+2+2 in their head. Just pick up 4 dices twice, 3 dices twice, then 2 and 2 more. The right amount is what they are holding in their hand.
* Fixed target number (unless involving Sid shenanigans) works on pattern recognition, which actually is a quite strong in humans. Just take a while for it to kick in. But then, recognizing successes becomes quite a bit faster (unless being stuck in the "I need to count" mentality).
* The odds of getting at least one success on 5 dices is about 92%, which fits the fluff about 2 being average. 5 dices would mean a normal professional being good at what they do, but nothing exceptional.

Now, when adding an exception based power system without a tight management on their creation, or when not understanding what a 4 actually means among mortals making it far to common.

Then, even if it is a well designed system, it still doesn't mean jack if people are expecting another result from it; and communicating their system (including internally) seems to be ... a tad flawed.
 
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