Exalted: Any opinions?

FeralToaster

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Huh, I always modeled my Abyssals chronicles after The Office or a Tom Holt book but with buster swords and mechs, where all the pcs are sharing notes on and/ trying to depose the various middle managers (the Death lords) and gain the favor of the corporate HQ (the much loved batcrazy Neverborn) to either become middle management or have their Death Lord raised to Regional Manager and thus be less of annoyance to themselves by expanding the DL's minion base. The only consistent rule I enforced was that whatever Eye and Seven Despairs did was considered golden by the head office. I'm really interested in reading how other people structured their chronicle.
 

AsenRG

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Sure they do so does allot of mythology include things that aren't 'realistic'. I never said otherwise. Using and embracing the fantastic is kind of the point of mythology.

But claiming that the conventions of popular media and games of the time had NOTHING to do with the using them...in a game/setting that stole brazenly from those sources in other ways including the structure of its mechanics and even its jargon is a load of crap meant to make them sound smarter and more enlightened than the average nerd.

Like the claims the Aberrant didn't have silly costumes like those...*sniff down nose* comic..books. It has, uh, Signature Clothing, yeah that's it.Oh yeah, ignore the super names, powers, groups of evil mutants villains plotting to take over the world, improbable essentially magical technology, etc etc. This Not The Super Fri- errr comic books, you philistines!

*eyeroll*

WW and its spiritual descendants have a tradition of trying to come across as 'smarter, better read, classier, etc' than the audience they're blatantly aiming for as it makes their customer base (or a vocal portion of it) feel superior for using them so they more easily justify or excuse the shitty writing, wonky schedules, asshole staff, etc, to get their superiority fix.

Heck the superiority and maturity of Exalted with its Buster Swords and Magical Battlemechs over mere childish D and D* was a big part of the marketing scheme for Exalted just like the vaunted (and over hyped) 'maturity' of the World(s) of Darkness was a part of its

*D and D isn't my cuppa but I'm not going to pretend mine is the more manly butch and mature way to play Let's Pretend I just enjoy acting like to dudes that wear funny outfits and smack around criminal in equally ludicrous gear, super spies with cybernetic implants and space men shooting ray guns at aliens (between showing the pretty ones more of that Earth thing called kissing) more. :grin:
You know that I don't care one bit about the White Wolf/Onyx Path marketing, right? In fact, you're the one who told me that they pretended anime hasn't been an influence:smile:.
Before today, I believed the warstriders make that kinda obvious:wink:.
That said, I still prefer the mythological Huge Swords as models for my daiklaives.

And of course, you said it yourself, marketing aims to attract sales, not to uncover the Truths About The Universe And That Game You Just Bought:tongue:!
 

Brock Savage

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Exalted is one of my favorite settings but I was never able to find a suitable setting with which to run it. I am open to suggestions.
 

Skywalker

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Exalted is one of my favorite settings but I was never able to find a suitable setting with which to run it. I am open to suggestions.
I would recommend Godbound. The Free edition is here:

The Premium version has an appendix that converts a number of specific Exalted concepts to the system including specific Exalted types, Warstriders and martial arts.
 

Chris Brady

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I would recommend Godbound. The Free edition is here:

The Premium version has an appendix that converts a number of specific Exalted concepts to the system including specific Exalted types, Warstriders and martial arts.
The three things I'd want, but I can't afford to get. :tongue:
 

AsenRG

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I'm gearing up for an Creation of Cepheus (yes, I mean Exalted via 2d6 SF mechanics) campaign.
Here are the system details:tongue:.

"Run it in a place where they don't get to meet Exalts, at least not yet", is my first point:smile:.

After that? Basically, anyone makes a fantasy-appropriate character, by using my system of "assign 15 dice to the six attributes, then roll (but you only take the highest two".
For the stages after that, I mixed liberally Cepheus Engine core (reskinning the career tables) with Worlds Apart, from whence the Events came, and even some supplements like High School and Graduate School. Those were necessary, because the only character so far is a high-Social unexalted scion of Kathak (which would have what amounts to higher education in the setting), currently stationed in the South.

And then taking the Essence rating of gods, elementals, demons, ghosts and fae, and assigning it as skill in their magic/psionic effects using "Easy Magic for Cepheus Engine" covers the rest. If necessary, it can be mixed with the ritual magic from Of Realms Unbounded/2d6 Magic to produce other necessary effects, and some artefacts or thaumaturgic items:wink:.

Also, I reduced the time of terms to 2 years (though university+graduate school still amounted to 6 years instead as a special exception), and had them start "university" at 14. IMO, that's enough time to learn the "narrower" skills used in Cepheus Engine (as opposed to the broader ones in CT). And many ancient societies expected people to become responsible adults far earlier than us, so it fits.

That's all the changes I'm making. I guess it's possible the characters might Exalt later.
If it becomes necessary, I'd consider giving them some access to magic, or even remaking them as Exalted characters. Sidereals 1e is looking shamelessly at me:grin:!

Though I might end up using some other system again, or retain Cepheus:devil:.I like the background, though!
 

TJS

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Well, the system in Exalted 2nd ed has quite a few things going for it.
* The pool system can help those not good at math quickly pick together their pool. They don't have to know how to quickly add (4+3)*2+2+2 in their head. Just pick up 4 dices twice, 3 dices twice, then 2 and 2 more. The right amount is what they are holding in their hand.
* Fixed target number (unless involving Sid shenanigans) works on pattern recognition, which actually is a quite strong in humans. Just take a while for it to kick in. But then, recognizing successes becomes quite a bit faster (unless being stuck in the "I need to count" mentality).
* The odds of getting at least one success on 5 dices is about 92%, which fits the fluff about 2 being average. 5 dices would mean a normal professional being good at what they do, but nothing exceptional.

Now, when adding an exception based power system without a tight management on their creation, or when not understanding what a 4 actually means among mortals making it far to common.

Then, even if it is a well designed system, it still doesn't mean jack if people are expecting another result from it; and communicating their system (including internally) seems to be ... a tad flawed.
I agree in general with your point about dice pools but you're talking about 18 dice there!

We always found that incredibly awkward. Just too much to quickly gather and awkward to role without them getting mixing in with other people's dice or even (with that many) to count out all the dice and then count out all the successes. We always found it easier to use a palm pilot (this was in the days before smart phones) which of course meant we did have to do all that maths.
 

Skywalker

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The three things I'd want, but I can't afford to get. :tongue:
They are definitely worth it but the Free version still has a lot of game in it and gives a pretty good idea of what Exalted could looks like with an easier to use system.
 

Lundgren

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I agree in general with your point about dice pools but you're talking about 18 dice there!

We always found that incredibly awkward. Just too much to quickly gather and awkward to role without them getting mixing in with other people's dice or even (with that many) to count out all the dice and then count out all the successes. We always found it easier to use a palm pilot (this was in the days before smart phones) which of course meant we did have to do all that maths.
For me, adding up the numbers in my head and then put it into some app would definitely be faster. On the other hand, I've seen people using a calculator to add up the result for a 3D10 roll, because they couldn't add up three single digit numbers in their head.

There are tricks to speed up the handling of dice in the Exalted system, which basically comes down to "sort, don't count" (and for those that are fast at doing additions in their head, keep the dices in several pools of 5 when not using them).

Then, it comes down to preferences and expectations. I like 2ed's system because it can handle a mortal level game pretty well, and over the top shenanigans of people with god-like powers. Other mechanics, like UniSystem (Buffy/Angel) or quite a few super hero games can handle different power levels as well, but they would need quite a rewrite if wanting the "need motes of Essence to fuel the powers, and that is a limited resource."

To make 2ed flow properly, I've found you don't only need enough space to roll large pools of dice, but also to space for a "sheet" to place glass-beads and poker chips on. Having people erase and add numbers on a piece of papers every time they spend or gain motes... :errr::shock:
 

zapbus

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I have to say that 3E seems to be kind of underrated here. Admittedly, being better than 1E and 2E is a low bar, but I'd honestly be willing to play 3E's system even if it weren't tied to the setting. I couldn't say that about 2E or even 1E.

3E is crunchy, yeah, but I'd argue that it's definitely not more complicated than 2E, and with less issues with things like 2E's infamous Paranoia Combat. I'd argue that tracking Initiative is much simpler than tracking Ticks, for example, especially since 3E's Initiative involves simple addition and subtraction with damage, going down from highest number to lowest number, while 2E's Tick Combat needed you to track the Speed and JB values of every individual combatant, and those values also varied from action to action. On the whole I'd prefer initiative, especially since it encourages a more aggressive mode of play rather than the more passive resource drain of prior editions, which just made things into a grind. At least with 3E, hitting someone quickly with your biggest and flashiest attack is a good move instead of a bad one. It was definitely 2E's biggest issue, where you needed to grind through every last one of your enemy's regenerating Mote pool in order to hurt them, and you never wanted to spend more on an attack than an opponent spent on a defense. You would have to chip away at your opponent, slowly, with bland and basic attacks.

While I like both games, I feel that both Exalted vs. WoD and Godbound repeat Exalted 1E's and 2E's problems, though Godbound/ExWoD/1E use more limited pools of resources so none of them are as bad as 2E. But all three games still have issues with dead turns, wherein a defender can simply fiat away an incoming blow at a flat cost, effectively turning the whole round into a redundancy. I feel these games are too heavily weighted towards attrition, resource management, and taking a slow and cautious approach that makes combat drag on far longer than it ought.

That's not to say Exalted 3E is perfect: it has issues with some of its subsystems, such as Craft being overly convoluted, and the fact that its massive charm lists can cause option paralysis. In my experience though, having run 2E for years and then 3E, is that you absolutely should not bother memorizing every single charm in the game. It's a fool's errand, regardless of edition. If a player wants to use a Charm, have him declare it and then reference it quickly. Generally it's just a simple effect like "I reroll 1's and add a bonus success" anyways.

With that said though, 3E does have a combat system that I think is genuinely good. At a minimum, I'd be willing to play other games that use something similar. It also has some fairly impressive social mechanics too, which I think did an incredible job of modeling human interaction aside from saying 'don't bother with dice, just roleplay it.'

Plus, some of the new fluff and locations are neat. :grin:
 

AsenRG

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I have to say that 3E seems to be kind of underrated here. Admittedly, being better than 1E and 2E is a low bar, but I'd honestly be willing to play 3E even if it weren't tied to the setting. I couldn't say that about 2E or even 1E.

3E is crunchy, yeah, but I'd argue that it's definitely not more complicated than 2E, and with less issues with things like 2E's infamous Paranoia Combat. I'd argue that tracking Initiative is much simpler than tracking Ticks, for example, especially since 3E's Initiative involves simple addition and subtraction with damage, going down from highest number to lowest number, while 2E's Tick Combat needed you to track the Speed and JB values of every individual combatant, and those values also varied from action to action. On the whole I'd prefer initiative, especially since it encourages a more aggressive mode of play rather than the more passive resource drain of prior editions, which just made things into a grind. At least with 3E, hitting someone quickly with your biggest and flashiest attack is a good move instead of a bad one. It was definitely 2E's biggest issue, where you needed to grind through every last one of your enemy's regenerating Mote pool in order to hurt them, and you never wanted to spend more on an attack than an opponent spent on a defense. You would have to chip away at your opponent, slowly, with bland and basic attacks.

While I like both games, I feel that both Exalted vs. WoD and Godbound repeat Exalted 1E's and 2E's problems, though both games use more limited pools of resources so it's not as bad as 2E. But all three games still have issues with dead turns, wherein a defender can simply fiat away an incoming blow at a flat cost, effectively turning the whole round into a redundancy. I feel these games are too heavily weighted towards attrition, resource management, and taking a slow and cautious approach that makes combat drag on far longer than it ought.

That's not to say Exalted 3E is perfect: it has issues with some of its subsystems, such as Craft being overly convoluted, and the fact that its massive charm lists can cause option paralysis. In my experience though, having run 2E for years and then 3E, is that you absolutely should not bother memorizing every single charm in the game. It's a fool's errand, regardless of edition. If a player wants to use a Charm, have him declare it and then reference it quickly. Generally it's just a simple effect like "I reroll 1's and add a bonus success" anyways.

With that said though, 3E does have a combat system that I think is genuinely good. At a minimum, I'd be willing to play other games that use something similar. It also has some fairly impressive social mechanics too, which I think did an incredible job of modeling human interaction aside from saying 'don't bother with dice, just roleplay it.'

Plus, some of the new fluff and locations are neat. :grin:
The combat system is good, but grinds to a halt when you introduce Charms. Still, I find it a nice way to represent the jockeying for position inherent in many styles...:grin:
Ditto for the social system. Ironically, both would be better for a game of heroic mortals:tongue:!

Now, what I really like about the 3e system is the Sorcery system, especially separating sorcerous motes from the normal pool, and adding rituals to replenish them. Also, the Workings are neat.

The crafting system? I'm yet to see a game that didn't ditch it completely. Yes, that includes the game I was running:shade:!

But the thing I hate the most is, of course, the fact that martial arts only work for Essence-users now! (Also I've never played in any game that retained that...at least not the ones that lasted long enough for me to ask the GM:evil:).

Some of the new setting bits are nice. Others make me wish for a return of the older editions:devil:!
 

Skywalker

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3E is crunchy, yeah, but I'd argue that it's definitely not more complicated than 2E...
I'd argue its definitely not more complicated than HERO either XD

2e is way more complex than it should be. It mainly got a pass from Exalted fans as it was built pretty closely on top of what had come before, so the increase in complexity was not insurmountable. In contrast 3e expected people to jump straight into to that same level of complexity from a much lower starting point, which had a predictable result.
 

zapbus

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The combat system is good, but grinds to a halt when you introduce Charms. Still, I find it a nice way to represent the jockeying for position inherent in many styles...:grin:
Ditto for the social system. Ironically, both would be better for a game of heroic mortals:tongue:!
Having run it a bunch, it's not too bad. While the charm-lists are huge, most players can only afford a small portion of them regardless, and not all of them are applicable to every scenario or roll. Generally what you'll see most often are bread and butter effects, like Excellencies, Excellent Strike, or Dipping Swallow Defense. While there are a lot more charms, their individual effects are now dirt simple and easier to resolve, at the very least.

Now, what I really like about the 3e system is the Sorcery system, especially separating sorcerous motes from the normal pool, and adding rituals to replenish them. Also, the Workings are neat.
Yeah Sorcery is probably the biggest leap in quality from 2E to 3E, aside from Social. Though it has gotten to the point where every single player in my game now wants to take a smattering of Sorcery simply to engage with the system, from the Dawn to the Night to the Eclipse. :closed:

The crafting system? I'm yet to see a game that didn't ditch it completely. Yes, that includes the game I was running:shade:!
Yeah. Craft is the only thing I'd say is not an unambiguous improvement over 2E. It was also playtested the least. From what I hear the upcoming Storyteller's Guide is going to include revised rules for Craft, Bureaucracy, and doing away with the BP/XP split, so that's a lot of bugbears done away with all at once.

But the thing I hate the most is, of course, the fact that martial arts only work for Essence-users now! (Also I've never played in any game that retained that...at least not the ones that lasted long enough for me to ask the GM:evil:).
Yeah. They wanted to include Techniques for mortals, and those were definitely present in the playtest docs, but were largely cut away for space. So they may revisit that in the future, or they may not. I hope they do.

Some of the new setting bits are nice. Others make me wish for a return of the older editions:devil:!
Well, given I'm the one who's always GMing, I can just take the bits and pieces I like best from all three editions and declare that one canon :thumbsup:

I'd argue its definitely not more complicated than HERO either XD

2e is way more complex than it should be. It mainly got a pass from Exalted fans as it was built pretty closely on top of what had come before, so the increase in complexity was not insurmountable. In contrast 3e expected people to jump straight into to that same level of complexity from a much lower starting point, which had a predictable result.
Eh, if anything I'd argue that maybe 3E was too conservative and retained too many of 2E's legacy mechanics. In practice, I'd consider Initiative an acceptable trade for Ticks: it requires an adjustment, but once you're familiar with with the Withering/Decisive split there's far less baggage. A scoreboard is far easier to keep note of than the 2E Tick Wheel. OTOH 3E's Social mechanics are outright superior, I find. It's a much more engaging minigame, at least.
 
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Skywalker

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Eh, if anything I'd argue that maybe 3E was too conservative and retained too many of 2E's legacy mechanics. In practice, I'd consider Initiative an acceptable trade for Ticks: it requires an adjustment, but once you're familiar with with the Withering/Decisive split there's far less baggage. A scoreboard is far easier to keep note of than the 2E Tick Wheel. OTOH 3E's Social mechanics are outright superior, I find. It's a much more engaging minigame, at least.
This almost feels like you are damning 3e with faint praise. You have no argument from me that 2e was an atrocious mess. But you aren't helping 3e's case by making comparison with 2e. The only real advantage 2e had over 3e was that it was the system was recognisable from a starting point that most Exalted players had already tolerated and many simply ignored those bits that were added that didn't work.

3e is more mechanically robust than 2e but it is very much an RPG designed by fans over an extended period of time and it suffers the flaw that I have seen in a number of games in recent years that had the same approach. The various components of the mechanics hold up OK on their own, but as a package its a nightmare. The errata to 2e was exactly the same kind of mess and it is clear that lessons weren't learnt in that process.
 

Nexus

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The 3rd edition combat system drive me out of my tree for a few reasons but allot of people seem to enjoy it. I found it a tedious over complicated grind personally with a ton of charms that basically mean fiddling little dice games.
 

zapbus

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This almost feels like you are damning 3e with faint praise. You have no argument from me that 2e was an atrocious mess. But you aren't helping 3e's case by making comparison with 2e. The only real advantage 2e had over 3e was that it was the system was recognisable from a starting point that most Exalted players had already tolerated and many simply ignored those bits that were added that didn't work.

3e is more mechanically robust than 2e but it is very much an RPG designed by fans over an extended period of time and it suffers the flaw that I have seen in a number of games in recent years that had the same approach. The various components of the mechanics hold up OK on their own, but as a package its a nightmare. The errata to 2e was exactly the same kind of mess and it is clear that lessons weren't learnt in that process.
Honestly, 2E is the Edition I'm most qualified to make comparisons against, given that I ran the thing for years. I also got involved with Exalted during mid 2E, and never played 1E, though I did read some of the older books for their fluff. If neither of us have any issues comparing 3E favorably to 2E then there's no issue there.

I don't really agree that you can compare 3E to the 2E errata though. For starters, 2E's Scroll of Errata was a nightmare. Nearly every charm in the game was rewritten, and a bunch of mechanics were also revised from the ground up. It was a nightmare that required you to reference about four separate books at a time. I can at least safely say that issue hasn't come up in 3E, with its biggest issues largely being 'the corebook ought to explain its effects better like the supplements do.'

I would still compare Exalted 3E favorably to a lot of other rpgs out there however. At the very least, I'd argue that it has a better core combat and social system than Chronicles of Darkness, the other big White Wolf/OPP property, and it's certainly in a far better state than Shadowrun 5E, the other system people pointed to when they mention games with cool fluff and bad mechanics. Personally, my big reason for preferring 3E over Godbound or Exalted vs. WoD is that I can run big, elaborate, setpiece combats without running into the grindy roadblocks caused by 2E style perfect defenses.

The 3rd edition combat system drive me out of my tree for a few reasons but allot of people seem to enjoy it. I found it a tedious over complicated grind personally with a ton of charms that basically mean fiddling little dice games.
It worked well for our group, at least, and led to more than a few fun moments. There's enough back and forth that even a single lucky shot at the right moment can lead to some fairly tense moments. The Dice Tricks are... dull but serviceable, and kind of exaggerated in their importance. There are at most three or four out of an entire tree (Craft excepted), and seem mainly function to make combat swingy enough that a PC can get lucky and swing above their weight class.
 
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Skywalker

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Honestly, 2E is the Edition I'm most qualified to make comparisons against, given that I ran the thing for years.
You have my sympathies. Stockholm syndrome must have hit hard right around when 3e landed :tongue:

In terms of Scroll of Errata, the difference you point out is simply a result of how the errata was presented in light of the existing material. However, most of the issues that I have with 3e are obvious to me in 2e, to the point where 3e feels very much a continuation and culmination of that errata (just with less book flipping :smile:).
 
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zapbus

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In terms of Scroll of Errata, the difference you point out is simply a result of how the errata was presented in light of the existing material. However, most of the issues that I have with 3e are obvious to me in 2e, to the point where 3e feels very much a continuation and culmination of that errata (just with less book flipping :smile:).
Could you elaborate a bit more on this? Having played both, I feel that 3E and 2E are fairly different in terms of how they play, as well as design philosophy. The 2E errata, from what I understand, leaned more heavily on concepts like Overdrive and so on for its mechanics. 3E's Initiative based combat is a pretty significant departure from late 2.5E, not the least of which is that Paranoia Combat is more or less settled.
 

Lundgren

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Considering I started to buy Exalted stuff around the Ex3 kickstarter, ran my first Exalted game after Ex3 was released, and my only real prior exposure to the StoryTeller system was the computer game V:tM Bloodlines, the only Stockholm Syndrome I have is... Well, that's the city I live in.

So me picking 2E over 1E or 3E was a conscious choice. I have them all, and 3E clashes with my preferences on oh so many levels. Still, as the new edition seems to be quite popular among quite a few, I'm glad they made the changes. All editions are available on Print-on-Demand, so it isn't like someone new can't get a hold of the previous ones if that is what they like. Also, what would be the point of 3E just being a pretty package of 2.5?

The reason Ex3 seems to be a bit underrated here is probably because those liking Ex3 are happily talking about them over at Onyx Path or RPG.net, and we who don't (well, at least I) have gotten fed-up with so many Ex3 fans not being able to talk about their favorite edition without pissing on 2E.

This is a thread about what people like or not like about Exalted, so I'm not complaining about people pissing on 2E in this thread. It isn't to everyone's taste, and some are "scorned lovers."

However, it is the Exalted 3E crowd that more or less have made me say "fuck it" about those two sites, and rarely posts there anymore.
 

Nexus

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It worked well for our group, at least, and led to more than a few fun moments. There's enough back and forth that even a single lucky shot at the right moment can lead to some fairly tense moments. The Dice Tricks are... dull but serviceable, and kind of exaggerated in their importance. There are at most three or four out of an entire tree (Craft excepted), and seem mainly function to make combat swingy enough that a PC can get lucky and swing above their weight class.
My groups found the dice game dull and largely inspiring. The Math gurus worked out that allot really mean adding a percentage of a success in the end. Combat tended to fall into the same "lather rinse repeat" format that comes up with in most rpgs but it was more complicated to get there. And part of the game's design philosophy seemed to be making things more mechanically complex made them innately more interesting (particularly Crafting which game across as virtually its own mini-game with odd ties ins to other areas.

Its strictly a matter of taste, of course. There's no objective right or wrong, its what you like. I guess most of us where hoping for something simpler than the previous editions There just weren't enough positives in 3E to offset the negatives for me or most of the group to go out and by other books all over again particularly as each new 'splat' (and there are all new and, imo, unneeded, ones) that add additional layers are mechanical density. So we're (mostly me. :grin:) are trying to cobble together something and avoiding rolling dice as much as possible.
 

Silverlion

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You do realize that they're no heavier to the user than a normal weapon would be to you and me, right:tongue:?
Yes, I know. I just find the aesthetic "not my thing." I did make a character with a giant boomerang once, sadly didn't get to play it. Might have changed my mind if I did, who knows? If you like it, rock on!

I've tried Exalted more than once in some form or another. (Solars, Lunars, Heroic Mortals) but *shrugs*

Now, I'd really like to try Godbound, not necessarily as an Exalted replacement, just one of those things that seems like it would be fun.
 
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Luca

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While I like both games, I feel that both Exalted vs. WoD and Godbound repeat Exalted 1E's and 2E's problems, though Godbound/ExWoD/1E use more limited pools of resources so none of them are as bad as 2E. But all three games still have issues with dead turns, wherein a defender can simply fiat away an incoming blow at a flat cost, effectively turning the whole round into a redundancy. I feel these games are too heavily weighted towards attrition, resource management, and taking a slow and cautious approach that makes combat drag on far longer than it ought.
The Godbound combat model is the opposite of what you're describing. It's rocket-tag. Whoever alpha-strikes best, wins. And since the PC always have initiative by design, they also start with a huge advantage.
There are powers which nullify attack categories, but you're not supposed to slap them on every single NPC boss fight. They should be pretty much the main stick of specific opponents; and even then, most of those are only effective against a single opponent, so ganging up still works.
Unless you give Unbreakable to every single significant NPC, and your whole group has no indirect, mental or spiritual attack, I can't see how being cautious is ever going to be a rational approach to Godbound combat. Especially given that on average big monsters dole out a whole lot more damage per round than PCs, so killing them quickly is in the party's best interest.

The only time this model falls apart is against Made Gods, but note that "attrition" does not describe those cases, either. Made Gods have infinite effort pools so you're never going to attrition them down. You're supposed to come up with an appropriate mcguffin before you even engage them.
 
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Nexus

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Yes, I know. I just find the aesthetic "not my thing." I did make a character with a giant boomerang once, sadly didn't get to play it. Might have changed my mind if I did, who knows? If you like it, rock on!
Its not the look that bothers me but (Forgive me, Rule of Cool Gods...) the practicality of those surfboard sized weapons. How do you use them in normal or close areas, in tight formations, etc? Their size might offer some advantages though, particularly for sheer intimidation (and there some pretty huge real world blades..like I forget the name a Japanese weapon meant to kill cavalry's horses... and possibly the rider at the same time. O.O)

A benefit to Exalted stunt system is the player, if they want, can use the'fluff'to set up the differences of their giant weapon in play. As the game I can offer situational bonuses (or penalties) as well as I see it as appropriate. I think I kept things reasonably fair. There's been no complaints, but that might be due to the.45 I keep beside the GM scree. ;-)

I don't mind exotic looking weapons, armor and equipment overall. I mean I like bat'lifs (sp?) and I know a few hardcore Trekkies that think the're silly. End of the days, its all imagination and taste. What works in the game world is what works in that particular fiction (Lord, if this was that site about rpgs heads would be exploding now...) Its doesn't really even violate the "rule of cool" some folks just find the practical and nominally 'realistic cool.
 

Baeraad

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I've run Godbound, and my experience is that it does a really good job of supporting the intended playstyle, which is having a group of uber-powerful heroes roaming around, battling slightly less uber-powerful villains (and occasionally even more uber-powerful godlike beings), doing over-the-top awesome things on a regular basis and changing the fate of entire nations. It's easy to prep, easy to run, and doesn't have a lot of fiddly bits that get in the way of inventing more bits of Awesome on the fly.

Which is good. A common complaint against Exalted is that it's not entirely clear what you're supposed to do in it, that it's so keen on being premise-agnostic that it doesn't properly support much of anything. Godbound is a lot more helpful in putting you on the right track.

My problem is really just that that's not my preferred style of play for Exalted. I like the less powerful Exalted types a lot better than I like the Solars. I like addressing the finer details. I like the PCs to actually have to interact with the setting, not just smash their way through it. And Godbound doesn't support any of that.
 

Nexus

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Its odd. I've seen the opinion that the Solar were "overpowered" and ran roughshod over the setting, never having to interact with setting but in years of running almost nothing but Solars I never ran into the issue. If anything they came across as overhyped and I had to tone the opposition even the Exalts described as weaker or less and the PC still spent allot time, scrounging to survive and hiding behind the skirt of their alleged lessers to protection *shrug*

When anything like a 'properly' stated Exalted opponent showed, you ran. If stood and fought, you might win but someone was very likely to die. I lost 3 Solars PC and a Lunar NPC in a battle with mid range Immaculate Monk and some mortal soldiers. It was quite a surprising moment and lead me to really re write some things and dial the opposition -way- back. So another thing that put me against 3E was the implication that the power of other splats, monster, etc, had been beefed to more match the "overpowered' Solars.
 

zapbus

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My problem is really just that that's not my preferred style of play for Exalted. I like the less powerful Exalted types a lot better than I like the Solars. I like addressing the finer details. I like the PCs to actually have to interact with the setting, not just smash their way through it. And Godbound doesn't support any of that.
I feel kind of the same way about Solars: it's sort of hard to make meaningful obstacles when a player can just fiat away a problem at a flat cost. It should be noted that the Solars are scaled down in 3E compared to 2E.

Its odd. I've seen the opinion that the Solar were "overpowered" and ran roughshod over the setting, never having to interact with setting but in years of running almost nothing but Solars I never ran into the issue. If anything they came across as overhyped and I had to tone the opposition even the Exalts described as weaker or less and the PC still spent allot time, scrounging to survive and hiding behind the skirt of their alleged lessers to protection *shrug*
It's really the badly conceived effects from Exalted 2E that caused issues. Stuff like Taboo Inflicting Diatribe, where you could change the laws of a nation overnight as long as you succeed on a roll and spend the motes. So you could run a few sessions where you're a Spartacus style slave liberator, but why bother when you can just have a brief conversation with a citizen of a specific nation-state and then use Taboo Inflicting Diatribe. And now all slaves are emancipated overnight. Nevermind that this is what the economy of the affected nation banked on, and there's really no logical reason for them to go along with it except for the fact that the charm says they will.

A lot of the Solar charms in 2E boiled down to "well, you just win" for anything not related to combat, and that doesn't make for very interesting stories. Granted combat itself is not a guaranteed victory for a Solar, even in 2E, but 2E's combat system had a lot of its own issues. But in terms of noncombat related obstacles, a Solar could simply handwave a great deal of problems away with just their charms. 3E scales down the noncombat effects in scope, and I feel that's to the overall benefit of the game.

I don't mind that Exalted vs. WoD uses a more 1E/2E style approach for its charms though, simply because Exalted vs WoD isn't about Exalts negotiating epic obstacles; it's largely about Exalts bonking Werewolves over the head with steel chairs :thumbsup:
 
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Nexus

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It's really the badly conceived effects from Exalted 2E that caused issues. Stuff like Taboo Inflicting Diatribe, where you could change the laws of a nation overnight as long as you succeed on a roll and spend the motes. So you could run a few sessions where you're a Spartacus style slave liberator, but why bother when you can just have a brief conversation with a citizen of a specific nation-state and then use Taboo Inflicting Diatribe. And now all slaves are emancipated overnight. Nevermind that this is what the economy of the affected nation banked on, and there's really no logical reason for them to go along with it except for the fact that the charm says they will.
The repercussions and consequences of that sort of thing are really left up in the air but that doesn't mean they don't exist. For example, the social, finical and personal trouble the plagued Deanyrs "Breaker of Chains" Tagearyen in a song of Ice and Fire.

But its effectively not necessary. IME, proceeding logically from the setting the PC would dead inside a couple of days and slaves back in chains shortly there afterward.'



A lot of the Solar charms in 2E boiled down to "well, you just win" for anything not related to combat, and that doesn't make for very interesting stories. Granted combat itself is not a guaranteed victory for a Solar, even in 2E, but 2E's combat system had a lot of its own issues. But in terms of noncombat related obstacles, a Solar could simply handwave a great deal of problems away with just their charms. 3E scales this down, and I feel that's to the overall benefit of the game.

I don't mind that Exalted vs. WoD uses a more 1E/2E style approach for its charms though, simply because Exalted vs WoD isn't about Exalts negotiating epic obstacles; it's largely about Exalts bonking Werewolves over the head with steel chairs :thumbsup:
As I said, I never ran into the issue. Out of combat and frankly Solars came across as even more pitiful compared to, say Lunars or even kitted out DBs (canonically they get a boat load of those "rare" artifact. There were very "I win" moments when we played and a lot of "Well, we're screwed" and "We're supposed to be demigods?"

Even the "I win" effects had holes, brought repercussion and put you on the radar if beings that would crush you like a bug. Solars felt like pretty typical fantasy characters that glowed, every hated and had a few interesting tricks. 3rd edition made those tricks far less interesting and everyone did about the same things (and more since Solars were 'just' human+). With some of the 3rd Edition charms I wasn't sure exactly what they did that was different from a regular ability check except costs essence, sometimes had weird restriction and might make you more conspicuous. One had to wonder why they were so feared. We figured that was the intent, another version of Aberrants being sold as "god like" when unless you used specific builds a baseline with a handgun could kill you in a turn.

But mileage clearly varies. :smile:
 
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zapbus

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Well, at least in 3E, a Solar can still outcompete a Dragonblood by a considerable margin, and a Lunar by a smaller one. Supernal makes a big difference, wherein Solars can access end-tier abilities even at Chargen.
 

Lundgren

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So you could run a few sessions where you're a Spartacus style slave liberator, but why bother when you can just have a brief conversation with a citizen of a specific nation-state and then use Taboo Inflicting Diatribe. And now all slaves are emancipated overnight. Nevermind that this is what the economy of the affected nation banked on, and there's really no logical reason for them to go along with it except for the fact that the charm says they will.
Huh? That's not how I interpreted that charm. I interpret it so it makes it shameful on owning slaves, which could mean emancipation in time. However, it doesn't change anyone wanting or not wanting to own slaves. So mainly it just makes people stumbling over each other trying to rephrase slaveowning into something else; gossiping about those slave owners, while we proper and decent people have "lifetime employees" (to steal a phrase from the Swedish RPG Noir).

A lot of the Solar charms in 2E boiled down to "well, you just win" for anything not related to combat, and that doesn't make for very interesting stories.
Unless you find the consequences of succeeding making interesting stories. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," "winning the fights, but losing the war," and all that. :smile:
 

zapbus

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Huh? That's not how I interpreted that charm. I interpret it so it makes it shameful on owning slaves, which could mean emancipation in time. However, it doesn't change anyone wanting or not wanting to own slaves. So mainly it just makes people stumbling over each other trying to rephrase slaveowning into something else; gossiping about those slave owners, while we proper and decent people have "lifetime employees" (to steal a phrase from the Swedish RPG Noir).
Well, I have the relevant bits here:

"The society instantly integrates the taboo or fad into its Policy. The taboo or fad remains part of the group’s Policy until the group’s leader spends a total of 10 Loyalty, at most one per week, to remove it. It is also a part of the Policy of any social groups of Magnitude 1+ that splinter off from the target group, and the leader of those groups must spend a total of 10 Loyalty, at most one per week, to remove it. This Charm has no effect on individuals, save that breaking the new rules of their society can make them outcasts"

The Charm doesn't just create a trend, it enshrines itself into law. The slavery example is just one possibility: you could literally use the charm to turn a city-state against the Immaculate Order almost instantly. Suddenly your principal enemies in a Satrapy are outlawed, and while there may be dissidents, it is still true that the mainstream now aligns with you rather than your enemies, without being given any real reason to think that way.

Unless you find the consequences of succeeding making interesting stories. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," "winning the fights, but losing the war," and all that. :smile:
I don't mind this, and it should be how things go, at least some of the time, especially in Exalted. But my issue with the Charm is that it sidesteps a considerable amount of the problems involved, eliminates the possibility of pushback and resistance on a societal level, and forces an entire society to act illogically and outside its own interests at a negligible cost. In a game where a societal problem is meant to be a complex and thorny issue, Taboo Inflicting Diatribe trivializes most of its challenge involved in implementing a policy, even if the consequences of those policies will arise regardless.

At the very least, the biggest amount of pushback from outlawing slavery ought to come from the very top, from the aristocracy you subordinated. Instead, as enforcers of the mainstream, RAW the aristocrats and all others who value societal order as their chief principle would side with you.
 

Lundgren

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Well, I have the relevant bits here:

"The society instantly integrates the taboo or fad into its Policy. The taboo or fad remains part of the group’s Policy until the group’s leader spends a total of 10 Loyalty, at most one per week, to remove it. It is also a part of the Policy of any social groups of Magnitude 1+ that splinter off from the target group, and the leader of those groups must spend a total of 10 Loyalty, at most one per week, to remove it. This Charm has no effect on individuals, save that breaking the new rules of their society can make them outcasts"
Well, it also says "The character must have spent several hours within the last month encouraging the desired attitude within this group before using this Charm, and this Charm must be invoked in the presence of at least one member of that group."

I take the "par of the Policy" to be the technical terms for how the group works from a rule mechanic point of view. So we have a bit of different views on what they were trying to say.

However, that was the charm I was thinking of when I wrote quite a few posts ago. I think that charm works, if the time spent is a lot more than "several hours withing the last month", or the result is toned down. Perhaps just creating a minor intimacy for the majority, or a major for a smaller sub-group.

Ramping up the time, and doing it over a month, means plenty of time for a Wyld Hunt, or other powers, to take notice.
 

zapbus

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Well, it also says "The character must have spent several hours within the last month encouraging the desired attitude within this group before using this Charm, and this Charm must be invoked in the presence of at least one member of that group."
Several hours is not a significant amount of time, and RAW, the group in question can be "citizens of an entire nation-state." So technically, you can spend a few hours discussing universal suffrage with Wei the Drunkard in a seedy backwater tavern, and you will somehow get your desired results. It's exactly as silly as it sounds, and it does mean that a sufficiently competent Solar can essentially cause an entire country to plummet into chaos while flying completely under the radar.

I take the "par of the Policy" to be the technical terms for how the group works from a rule mechanic point of view. So we have a bit of different views on what they were trying to say.
Policy is basically Motivation as applied to groups. It's effectively a part of the raison d'etre.

However, that was the charm I was thinking of when I wrote quite a few posts ago. I think that charm works, if the time spent is a lot more than "several hours withing the last month", or the result is toned down. Perhaps just creating a minor intimacy for the majority, or a major for a smaller sub-group.

Ramping up the time, and doing it over a month, means plenty of time for a Wyld Hunt, or other powers, to take notice.
Yes, that doesn't sound so bad. As it is though, the charm is vague, overly powerful, and allows the solar to allow them to carry on indefinitely simply because of the low requirements involved. There were a lot of things that were neat in 2E, but also a lot of things that were bad in 2E. I feel that Taboo Inflicting Diatribe falls into the latter camp.

Is Exalted 3rd still rocking Lillun?
It does not, and I'm pretty grateful for it.
 

Lundgren

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Is Exalted 3rd still rocking Lillun?
They haven't got that far into the splats or modules to have where she would potentially show up. However, to my understanding that is one of the things they plan to rewrite completely.
 

zapbus

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They haven't got that far into the splats or modules to have where she would potentially show up. However, to my understanding that is one of the things they plan to rewrite completely.
Yeah the devs were pretty emphatic about that on the Discord :hehe:
 

Lundgren

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Yeah the devs were pretty emphatic about that on the Discord :hehe:
Yeah. I used a bit more diplomatic phrasing, in case they have changed the entire company until it is time to write the new version of the Infernals.

But if I understand the current policy correctly, when it comes to 2E Infernal intro where Lillun shows up, it is pretty much "nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
 
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