Exalted: Any opinions?

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
2,814
Makes sense to me. I've been in many groups where people where people were sexually compatible. That can often lead to complicated social dynamics with some people in the group in relationships together, others in relationships outside the group, and others with unrequited attractions to other people in the group. That's without getting into people using games for their own weird fantasies.

Bringing sex into the game can set off all kinds of uncomfortable situations that can have ripple effects into real world relationships. It makes sense to me for some players just declare their characters off-limits.
Still makes no sense to me, and I've been in games where everyone was sexually compatible with everyone else. IMO, people should be able to resolve such issues.

Killing people is purely in the realm of fantasy for the majority of the people that I have played with, so it isn't as big a hot button topic.
1) So the feelings of the minority for whom that's not in the realm of fantasy don't matter:trigger:?
2) I didn't just say "killing people". I said "grinding their souls down for fun and profit":brokenheart:. That, at least, shouldn't be in the realm of fantasy for many people with civilian professions (including, but not restricted to, many managers I can think of:skeleton:).

There have been some social exchanges in our games that I guess many groups would have found uncomfortable but we took them as dramatic and interesting. Mileage will vary though so work to keep the player on the same page when starting a game so no one gets anything they didn't say up and keep the floor open for discussion if someone discovers that something make them really uncomfortable. Games are supposed to be fun
True. You can always discuss stuff with me.
Granted, I've almost never had to change the NPC's plans, so far. The only time I had to, the game stopped being fun to run soon afterwards. I kinda suspect the two might have been related...:smile:

So yeah, we're all ideally playing with people with similar levels of tolerance for emotional abuse.

I've read the stories and people can be jerks that's for damn sure. but I always wonder why just sex then? I've seen horror stories about allot of things. If the GM starts to describe happening that truly disturbs and upset you speak up and tell them. Maybe you find a compromise, retcon the event or decide if this game isn't for you.
Same here. In fact, I've always found it much easier to deal with players who try to spring the sexual surprises on us...so why don't I get the protection from what disturbs me?
Oh wait, because all of this, combined, would gut the social system to the point where we could as well skip it...

But yes, I've had some experiences with "sex surprises". The last of these cases was in 2e, though. I guess I've got a reputation or something?
Anyway, the last time I simply stunted my defence to make his Social Attack fail (coupled with a Third Excellency I only needed a couple more points), and the rest just spent the requisite Willpower.
Then we, as a group, told him the next time he uses a single social charm on us is going to be on the last minute of his PC's life. Daiklaives were shown upclose, too, I think. But he got the message:grin:!
And this wasn't even my group. I knew other players from other games, but most were strangers.

Might it be a problem for some groups? Maybe. But I don't play with "some groups", and even my experience with strangers points to the idea that the issue has been overblown for, how shall I put it more mildly, ideological reasons.
Let's leave it at that.

Well, do you do that to a player that expects it to be like a Lord of the Rings setting, because Exalted is some sort of fantasy, or do they they know that can happen when they join the game?
...Oh please, seriously? Are you going to imply I'd do that?
I think you've mentioned being into BDSM. Do you bring unsuspected friends with no experience in it* to a BDSM bar without warning, other than "it's a bar that you'd really like":evil:? Because that's basically the same kind of behaviour you're implying about me.

So, to make it crystal clear: we always do The Talk. And I warn explicitly that no feelings shall be spared.
Also, I did similar stuff to my wife's first Exalted character. Yet she was only sorry when the campaign had to end:shade:.
And if anyone expects more leeway and protection from the emotional meatgrinder than I'd grant to her characters...think again:devil:!

*Assuming you suspect, based on knowing them, that they'd fit right in:smile:.
I mean, in my opinion it's about expectations of what the setting contains. After all, if the setting is Westeros, the expectations before talking about it will be a tad different from Gondor. I'm guessing most would be equally upset over a chaste version of R.R. Martin's setting.
I would be. But it seems I'm part of Team Pervert:wink:.

Same thing with where one recruit players. They already know what kind of games one runs, expectations is already set. Not know each other, but have recruited at the local BDSM club and have used "you may become someones unwilling sexual plaything" as a selling argument, well.. :tongue:
Maybe you should join me and Nexus:tongue:? Come join us, we've got cookies...and handcuffs!
I'm guessing the reason they wrote that rule is because some people sprang it as a surprise on their group, and it is the horror stories that are the ones being spread around. A section, or rather a chapter on how it can be handled would definitely be better. However, it also requires someone being competent enough to write those, as just winging it would be a waste of space.

The intimacy system of 3ed also gives the player quite a bit more options to disengage; and being able to stack some "repulse on the thought about..." and so on, if something is to queasy.

Which one of the many bullshit politically correct and mentally deranged rules was that:gunslinger:?
[/QU
I can get that its just an aspect of human nature that strikes me as weird. I haven't killed anyone but I've friend, family members and others I know, some killed by others, death is a very real thing but folks can distance themselves from it enough to imagine doing it or their to some degree extensions doing but sex is a pretty universal experience too but imaging their extension doing it puts off allot of people even if its implied for some.

But as I've said in other places, I am a pervert. :grin:
It strikes me as weird as well. Guess we must establish The Pub's Perverts Team:grin:?
 
Last edited:

Lundgren

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
239
...Oh please, seriously? Are you going to imply I'd do that?
I think you've mentioned being into BDSM. Do you bring unsuspected friends with no experience in it* to a BDSM bar without warning, other than "it's a bar that you'd really like":evil:? Because that's basically the same kind of behaviour you're implying about me.
On the contrary. I was quite sure you don't :smile: And that's my point...

So, to make it crystal clear: we always do The Talk. And I warn explicitly that no feelings shall be spared.
Also, I did similar stuff to my wife's first Exalted character. Yet she was only sorry when the campaign had to end:shade:.
And if anyone expects more leeway and protection from the emotional meatgrinder than I'd grant to her characters...think again:devil:!
And they know what to expect. Complaining about it happening in your game would be like complaining about there's being sex in a porn flick. :tongue:

Maybe you should join me and Nexus:tongue:? Come join us, we've got cookies...and handcuffs!
Sure. But I can bring my own. :evil:

The thing is, there are people that don't look at Exalted in the same way that we do. I mean, the majority (or just on the two earlier mentioned forums) seems to be upset over how the earlier editions had the Dragon-Blooded being created. Some people are even excluding it from Kult or the Swedish game Noir, running them like any other action focused rpg. :shock:
 

Lundgren

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
239
I also think the red rule isn't for those 99% that understand that you should talk to group first and make sure everyone is at least fairly on the same page. I think it is mainly aimed at last 1%, and as something to point to when people not playing the game at all are being upset about all the horrible things consenting adults can do to have fun.

The only actual problem, which could have been handled with a "and feel free to discard this if everyone at the table is fine with it," is that some are not comfortable to go against RAW. As someone not interested in neither RAW or RAI (I'm more of "it's a book of suggestions"), I tend to forget about this group myself.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
2,814
On the contrary. I was quite sure you don't :smile: And that's my point...
OK - I'd misunderstood your point.

And they know what to expect. Complaining about it happening in your game would be like complaining about there's being sex in a porn flick. :tongue:
Exactly my point.

Sure. But I can bring my own. :evil:
I suspected as much:smile:!

The thing is, there are people that don't look at Exalted in the same way that we do. I mean, the majority (or just on the two earlier mentioned forums) seems to be upset over how the earlier editions had the Dragon-Blooded being created. Some people are even excluding it from Kult or the Swedish game Noir, running them like any other action focused rpg. :shock:
Well, those people are suc...ahem, sufficiently different in their approach to the game that I have no interest in even knowing what they're up to:wink:!

I also think the red rule isn't for those 99% that understand that you should talk to group first and make sure everyone is at least fairly on the same page. I think it is mainly aimed at last 1%, and as something to point to when people not playing the game at all are being upset about all the horrible things consenting adults can do to have fun.
So, instead of a rule saying "if your players don't stick by the group's convention, first talk with them, and if that fails, boot them"...we have a rule implying the PCs would rather allow to be talked into killing innocents of all ages in a settlement and making their souls suffer for an eternity...rather than allow themselves to be talked into getting in bed with the "wrong" person.
And that applies to everyone in the setting, PC and NPC alike - by another of the Soulsteel Rules.

...Yeah, that's no doubt some stellar game design right there - right on par with what a Gorean game would look like if played "by the books" instead of "by common sense"!
It's just me who's deluded enough to not recognize it as such, right:devil:?

The only actual problem, which could have been handled with a "and feel free to discard this if everyone at the table is fine with it," is that some are not comfortable to go against RAW. As someone not interested in neither RAW or RAI (I'm more of "it's a book of suggestions"), I tend to forget about this group myself.
Sometimes, I do play RAW. Sometimes, I play with RAI, so I am interested in both.
But if I don't like the RAW or RAI, expect me to change them without blinking an eye. Because the game should be fun to the Referee first*, to the players second...and everyone else is invited to shoot themselves if they disapprove.
As stated above, I'm not even interested what happens in most of their games:tongue:.

*Because otherwise there's no game.
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
It does feel like the 1% sort of won when it comes to Exalted in the public view given how the mood has changed and what people complain about as far as art, subject material, etc. Though I've noted that there seems to be more.... prudish streak in the rpger community fairly recently maybe spawned from perceived excesses and "immaturity" earlier? Which always struck me as a little odd considering how transgression on some conventional mores sci-fi, horror, and fantasy literature, something that rpgs often draw inspiration and fans from, have been and still are, IME.

Edit: I mean the outright Moral Panic over an illustration of the Scarlet Empress in a gown that showed her leg, a dress that wouldn't cause a second look (not due to shock over its immodesty anyway...) in real life in most places on the modern or even the ancient world was something to see.
 
Last edited:

Lundgren

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
239
OK - I'd misunderstood your point.
The risk of text communication :smile:

Well, those people are suc...ahem, sufficiently different in their approach to the game that I have no interest in even knowing what they're up to:wink:!

Knowing the enemy is half the battle :hehe: Seriously, considering how I have had to explain three four times that I don't use minis and I don't run games by RAW, before some manage to figure out I'm not the GM for them, I want to know enough to know what topics needed to be discussed. Now, "discussed" can "I want to play with you, where is your lines of acceptable behavior" or "I'm going to run this, and if you want to join you need to accept X might happen."


So, instead of a rule saying "if your players don't stick by the group's convention, first talk with them, and if that fails, boot them"...we have a rule implying the PCs would rather allow to be talked into killing innocents of all ages in a settlement and making their souls suffer for an eternity...rather than allow themselves to be talked into getting in bed with the "wrong" person.
And that applies to everyone in the setting, PC and NPC alike - by another of the Soulsteel Rules.
Well, I think a large part of it is cultural. Just look at the difference in how violence and sex in media are regarded on the different sides of the Atlantic.

But, yeah, there are several ways how it could have been phrased in a more general and better way; with perhaps keeping the current "red rule" as an example on how a table can handle it.

...Yeah, that's no doubt some stellar game design right there - right on par with what a Gorean game would look like if played "by the books" instead of "by common sense"!
It's just me who's deluded enough to not recognize it as such, right:devil:?
Are you implying common sense is common?!? :shock: :tongue:

It does feel like the 1% sort of won when it comes to Exalted in the public view given how the mood has changed and what people complain about as far as art, subject material, etc. Though I've noted that there seems to be more.... prudish streak in the rpger community fairly recently maybe spawned from perceived excesses and "immaturity" earlier? Which always struck me as a little odd considering how transgression on some conventional mores sci-fi, horror, and fantasy literature, something that rpgs often draw inspiration and fans from, have been and still are, IME.
Well, its usually the loud part of other groups that get noticed and becomes how that group is perceived. As I hadn't really got into Exalted enough before the old White Wolf forums went poof, I don't really know how the discussions actually looked like. So, for example, the references to people talking about Solar and Lunar run rape camps to breed Dragon-Bloods or Beastmen might have been something a tad different, and being filtered through someones lens. At least part of 3ed can be explained by a backlash against things like Lilun, and those rape camp discussions. Then I also think there is a certain amount of anxiety to be considered sexist, or whatever, which resulted in the draped over leg in the former mentioned picture.

Still, I don't think all can be explained that way. Going from a "who the fuck cares about your plumbing; all that matters are if you are a Dragon-Blood, and if you can trace your lineage to the empress" type of Realm to the current "the Matriarchs of the house makes the decision" and "reversed sexism" Realm can't be explained with neither a backlash or prudishness.

A somewhat related side-note... Does any male here think being selected to keep 99 women, not selected by you, pregnant a dream come true? Or am I alone in thinking that would be a freaking nightmare?
 

R-90-2

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
9
Reaction score
17
Are you implying common sense is common?!? :shock: :tongue:
When it comes to gaming, I've found that common sense is probably the single most unreliable metric for anything, as everyone is working from their own separate book of what "everyone knows". My favorite example of this is when I ran into a guy who insisted that Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was weeaboo trash because "everyone knows it's impossible to use a bow from horseback."

A somewhat related side-note... Does any male here think being selected to keep 99 women, not selected by you, pregnant a dream come true? Or am I alone in thinking that would be a freaking nightmare?
I'd probably decline at least based on the practical logistics of the matter. If I'm a noble, I probably have other matters that need my attention, such as my estate, education, and other matters of policy- where would I find the time and energy to do all that stuff on top of that particular set of 99 responsibilities?
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
Well, its usually the loud part of other groups that get noticed and becomes how that group is perceived. As I hadn't really got into Exalted enough before the old White Wolf forums went poof, I don't really know how the discussions actually looked like. So, for example, the references to people talking about Solar and Lunar run rape camps to breed Dragon-Bloods or Beastmen might have been something a tad different, and being filtered through someones lens. At least part of 3ed can be explained by a backlash against things like Lilun, and those rape camp discussions. Then I also think there is a certain amount of anxiety to be considered sexist, or whatever, which resulted in the draped over leg in the former mentioned picture.

Still, I don't think all can be explained that way. Going from a "who the fuck cares about your plumbing; all that matters are if you are a Dragon-Blood, and if you can trace your lineage to the empress" type of Realm to the current "the Matriarchs of the house makes the decision" and "reversed sexism" Realm can't be explained with neither a backlash or prudishness.

A somewhat related side-note... Does any male here think being selected to keep 99 women, not selected by you, pregnant a dream come true? Or am I alone in thinking that would be a freaking nightmare?
At my current age, arduous and possibly fatal, at 16....is that all you got? Not that I could live up to that boast but I'd have given it my best :grin:

The breeding process did make some biological sense. You don't need many men to kept women impregnated but most women will give birth to one child at time. The immaculate dragons didn't have endless power to grant humans so it was (or at least sounds like) an efficient choice numbers for quickly building an army. It wasn't presented as 'rape camps' in that instance but part of a sacred duty for all involved. Keeping 100s of DB slaves and the entire operation generally quiet (so as not to alert the future Yozi) would have been something of an undertaking.

As I recall, the Realm was matriarchal since 1st edition, as was much of the East (a little ludicrous considering the size that it has mono culture as anything more than a trend...) They just didn't show it much earlier. Women DB dominated the higher ranks and were generally considered more dependable, but it was relatively soft sexism. In 2nd, IIRC, there was an NPC terrestrial woman that abused her status and the social authority had held over men but she caused outrage as well as a "straw feminist" and such. But that's going down a road that isn't good for this board.

Frankly the 'discussions' about rape camps is just more of what I meant. Yes, inhuman, insane, malignantly evil beings did horrible hings. There weren't graphic description and illustrations. You were free to not use those items if imaginary atrocities upset you but demanding the game be rewritten to some lower age group just rubs me the wrong way (not that nice way I like to be rubbed, but I digress) the Empress' dress in that picture wasn't explicit, wasn't exploitative.

Heck the entire image spoke of her power and influence but she is a character that is aware of her beauty and conscious of its effects and used it as another weapon when needed. But from the reactions you'd think it depicted her with her legs thrown over the arms of her throne, demonstrating her hair color is most likely natural. The edited picture lower quality and sort of made her look like she was late term pregnant. Which to be fair would for the character as well, but it came out looking not so good, IMO.
 
Last edited:

Lundgren

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
239
When it comes to gaming, I've found that common sense is probably the single most unreliable metric for anything, as everyone is working from their own separate book of what "everyone knows". My favorite example of this is when I ran into a guy who insisted that Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was weeaboo trash because "everyone knows it's impossible to use a bow from horseback."
:shock:

I'd probably decline at least based on the practical logistics of the matter. If I'm a noble, I probably have other matters that need my attention, such as my estate, education, and other matters of policy- where would I find the time and energy to do all that stuff on top of that particular set of 99 responsibilities?
Well, I don't know what other responsibilities the original 100 male Dragon-Bloods were supposed to have, other than reproduce. Well, the goal was to raise an army of "elemental fueled super soldiers," while not alerting even more powerful beings. 9900 females and 100 males was originally infused with powers of the Elemental Dragons.

I have always taken that story as the gods just looked at the humans as animals, and if you want to raise chicken, you don't get five hens and five roosters.

I've noticed that some have taken that female to male ratio as just being an expression of male fantasy, and considering anything other than a 1:1 ratio being a horrible opinion. However, those making that claim tend to have a very different view of how the setting works in almost all regards.
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
Terrestrials also are reputed to have stronger carnal appetites that mere mortal (and possibly most Celestials?), at least its been mention but it has no mechanical effect (Sexual Seduction isn't normally any easier, etc They don't think with their crotches, at least not as whole some might... :smile: ).
 

Lundgren

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2018
Messages
163
Reaction score
239
At my current age, arduous and possibly fatal, at 16....is that all you got? Not that I could live up to that boast but I'd have given it my best :grin:
When I was 16, the Berlin Wall was still standing. :smile: So I can't say I really recall how I would consider 99 women not of my choosing back then. Then, I don't really think the one selecting would bother to make sure everyone being heterosexual, so I wouldn't be worst off.

The breeding process did make some biological sense. You don't need many men to kept women impregnated but most women will give birth to one child at time. The immaculate dragons didn't have endless power to grant humans so it was (or at least sounds like) an efficient choice numbers for quickly building an army. It wasn't presented as 'rape camps' in that instance but part of a sacred duty for all involved. Keeping 100s of DB slaves and the entire operation generally quiet (so as not to alert the future Yozi) would have been something of an undertaking.
Well, I'm not sure they had time to sell in a "sacred duty". But being selected by gods, and promised power and riches would probably do the trick.

Then, there is also the question of what tech level mortals were at the time.

As I recall, the Realm was matriarchal sense 1st edition, as was much of the East (a little ludicrous considering the size that it has mono culture as anything more than a trend...) They just didn't show it much earlier. Women DB dominated the higher ranks and were generally considered more dependable, but it was relatively soft sexism. In 2nd, IIRC, there was an NPC terrestrial woman that abused her status and the social authority had held over men but she caused outrage as well as a "straw feminist" and such. But that's going down a road that isn't good for this board.
Well, in both the earlier edition, there were both men and women as head of the house. In first edition, a couple married from two houses could themselves decide which house they would live with (or even move back and forth). In second edition, one moved to the other, but it could be either the man or the woman.

Then it is a few hundred million mortals and at least ten thousand Dragon-Bloods, so things could be taken as individual or local difference.

Not so much with 3ed...

Frankly the 'discussions' about rape camps is just more of what I meant. Yes, inhuman, insane, malignantly evil beings did horrible hings. There weren't graphic description and illustrations. You were free to not use those items if imaginary atrocities upset you but demanding the game be rewritten to some lower age group just rubs me the wrong way (not that nice way I like to be rubbed, but I digress) the Empress' dress in that picture wasn't explicit, wasn't exploitative.

Heck the entire image spoke of her power and influence but she is a character that is aware of her beauty and conscious of its effects and used it as another weapon when needed. But from the reactions you'd think it depicted her with her legs thrown over the arms of her throne, demonstrating her hair color is most likely natural. The edited picture lower quality and sort of made her look like she was late term pregnant. Which to be fair would for the character as well, but it came out looking not so good, IMO.
Yeah. And also, she is from a culture that isn't prudish or squeamish about sexuality. So that leg could also be taken as a powerful woman not giving a fuck if that person kneeling could see a bit of skin. She's busy inspecting the sword.

Also, a bit interesting that I have never seen a word about how that kneeling dude is dressed :tongue:


Terrestrials also are reputed to have stronger carnal appetites that mere mortal (and possibly most Celestials?), at least its been mention but it has no mechanical effect (Sexual Seduction isn't normally any easier, etc They don't think with their crotches, at least not as whole some might... :smile: ).
Still, I haven't really seen anything that can't be explained with "humans not being held back by any stigma." So that there is no mechanical effect suits me just fine.
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
Yeah. And also, she is from a culture that isn't prudish or squeamish about sexuality. So that leg could also be taken as a powerful woman not giving a fuck if that person kneeling could see a bit of skin. She's busy inspecting the sword.
The pose might have deliberate if that guy was important/worthy enough for an audience with Empress perhaps she wants to ensure a little more fealty with an unspoken promise (which she may have no intention of keeping...) or just through him off his game. Or heck maybe she's interested in him.

Regardless it doesn't speak to me as her being depicted as weak and exploited.

Also, a bit interesting that I have never seen a word about how that kneeling dude is dressed :tongue:
Not a peep that I ever saw. For that matter, the picture for 3rd Dawn Sig character wearing nothing but a tiny "thong" with an imperial sigil right over his package was praised. Though he is generally depicted shirtless...
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
2,814
The risk of text communication :smile:
Indeed.

Knowing the enemy is half the battle :hehe: Seriously, considering how I have had to explain three four times that I don't use minis and I don't run games by RAW, before some manage to figure out I'm not the GM for them, I want to know enough to know what topics needed to be discussed. Now, "discussed" can "I want to play with you, where is your lines of acceptable behavior" or "I'm going to run this, and if you want to join you need to accept X might happen."
+1 to that as well.
And I know the feeling about minis and stuff. "I run games where being hurt, hurts".
"Why does a cracked femur incapacitate my PC so much?"
I'm not even making this conversation up.

Well, I think a large part of it is cultural. Just look at the difference in how violence and sex in media are regarded on the different sides of the Atlantic.
That's hard to do, given that one side of the Atlantic ain't monolithic at all:wink:.

But, yeah, there are several ways how it could have been phrased in a more general and better way; with perhaps keeping the current "red rule" as an example on how a table can handle it.
That's putting it mildly.

Are you implying common sense is common?!? :shock: :tongue:
No.
But I do expect game designers to think about the ramifications of their own rules...:tongue:

Well, its usually the loud part of other groups that get noticed and becomes how that group is perceived.
Well, if nobody is willing to argue with them, those people might as well go with the loud voices when it comes to crucial decisions. How do you know, if you're not part of the group?

As I hadn't really got into Exalted enough before the old White Wolf forums went poof, I don't really know how the discussions actually looked like.
Neither do I. Never bothered registering:devil:!

So, for example, the references to people talking about Solar and Lunar run rape camps to breed Dragon-Bloods or Beastmen might have been something a tad different, and being filtered through someones lens.
Sounds like events from some of my campaigns, and some campaigns I've been in.
But then my players coined the phrase "sexual combat":shade:.

At least part of 3ed can be explained by a backlash against things like Lilun, and those rape camp discussions. Then I also think there is a certain amount of anxiety to be considered sexist, or whatever, which resulted in the draped over leg in the former mentioned picture.
True. Which is why I dislike people who have a tendency to overreact.
Alas, social media are full of those:evil:!

Still, I don't think all can be explained that way. Going from a "who the fuck cares about your plumbing; all that matters are if you are a Dragon-Blood, and if you can trace your lineage to the empress" type of Realm to the current "the Matriarchs of the house makes the decision" and "reversed sexism" Realm can't be explained with neither a backlash or prudishness.
Also agreed.
Which is why I'm mixing the descriptions from all three editions for my setting.
A somewhat related side-note... Does any male here think being selected to keep 99 women, not selected by you, pregnant a dream come true? Or am I alone in thinking that would be a freaking nightmare?
What?
Oh, you mean the Dragon-Blooded? Well, that would require Endurance/Resistance charms. Otherwise, in mortal men, the odds of conception fall sharply if they don't get a quite significant pause:gunslinger:.
The things you learn in life...
But yeah, it might well have been less than fun for all parties. But hey, "you spread you legs, you get it up, and both of you think of glorious battle!"

As I recall, the Realm was matriarchal since 1st edition, as was much of the East (a little ludicrous considering the size that it has mono culture as anything more than a trend...)
The East? Monoculture:shock:?
Definitely not how I remember it. And I re-read 1st edition today...:grin:

They just didn't show it much earlier. Women DB dominated the higher ranks and were generally considered more dependable, but it was relatively soft sexism.
Now, in the Central direction, yes...

Frankly the 'discussions' about rape camps is just more of what I meant. Yes, inhuman, insane, malignantly evil beings did horrible hings.
Who would have thought?!?

There weren't graphic description and illustrations. You were free to not use those items if imaginary atrocities upset you but demanding the game be rewritten to some lower age group just rubs me the wrong way (not that nice way I like to be rubbed, but I digress) the Empress' dress in that picture wasn't explicit, wasn't exploitative.

Heck the entire image spoke of her power and influence but she is a character that is aware of her beauty and conscious of its effects and used it as another weapon when needed. But from the reactions you'd think it depicted her with her legs thrown over the arms of her throne, demonstrating her hair color is most likely natural.
+1 to that as well.
I have always taken that story as the gods just looked at the humans as animals, and if you want to raise chicken, you don't get five hens and five roosters.
Of course!

I've noticed that some have taken that female to male ratio as just being an expression of male fantasy, and considering anything other than a 1:1 ratio being a horrible opinion. However, those making that claim tend to have a very different view of how the setting works in almost all regards.
All the poly people are laughing at them. And not in a friendly manner.
But, yeah, there's nothing to be gained from discussing the opinions of said group. It's literally a different setting in all but name:tongue:!

Terrestrials also are reputed to have stronger carnal appetites that mere mortal (and possibly most Celestials?), at least its been mention but it has no mechanical effect (Sexual Seduction isn't normally any easier, etc They don't think with their crotches, at least not as whole some might... :smile: ).
Alas! It would have made my task as a player that much easier...and given that Resistance is a Zenith skill, would have given new meaning to the phrase "religious exprience":tongue:!

Well, I'm not sure they had time to sell in a "sacred duty". But being selected by gods, and promised power and riches would probably do the trick.
Yes. People have done worse stuff for less reward.
Well, in both the earlier edition, there were both men and women as head of the house. In first edition, a couple married from two houses could themselves decide which house they would live with (or even move back and forth). In second edition, one moved to the other, but it could be either the man or the woman.

Then it is a few hundred million mortals and at least ten thousand Dragon-Bloods, so things could be taken as individual or local difference.

Not so much with 3ed...
Alas, true.
But then that's why I'm currently running Exalted with 1e books and Cepheus.

Yeah. And also, she is from a culture that isn't prudish or squeamish about sexuality. So that leg could also be taken as a powerful woman not giving a fuck if that person kneeling could see a bit of skin. She's busy inspecting the sword.
That's how I viewed it.
Painting over her leg was actually diminishing her power. "Oh noes, a male gaze cannot be allowed to venture over my legs! Doesn't matter that I can order his death on a whim, that would still lower my status!"

...yeah, right. Let's just say this attitude didn't make me popular!

The pose might have deliberate if that guy was important/worthy enough for an audience with Empress perhaps she wants to ensure a little more fealty with an unspoken promise (which she may have no intention of keeping...) or just through him off his game. Or heck maybe she's interested in him.
Or maybe she's just a tease. Because she can!

Regardless it doesn't speak to me as her being depicted as weak and exploited.
Yeah, same here.

Not a peep that I ever saw. For that matter, the picture for 3rd Dawn Sig character wearing nothing but a tiny "thong" with an imperial sigil right over his package was praised. Though he is generally depicted shirtless...
The less we comment the "quality" of 3e "art", the better, IMO:evil:!
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
2,814
The risk of text communication :smile:
Indeed.

Knowing the enemy is half the battle :hehe: Seriously, considering how I have had to explain three four times that I don't use minis and I don't run games by RAW, before some manage to figure out I'm not the GM for them, I want to know enough to know what topics needed to be discussed. Now, "discussed" can "I want to play with you, where is your lines of acceptable behavior" or "I'm going to run this, and if you want to join you need to accept X might happen."
+1 to that as well.
And I know the feeling about minis and stuff. "I run games where being hurt, hurts".
"Why does a cracked femur incapacitate my PC so much?"
I'm not even making this conversation up.

Well, I think a large part of it is cultural. Just look at the difference in how violence and sex in media are regarded on the different sides of the Atlantic.
That's hard to do, given that one side of the Atlantic ain't monolithic at all:wink:.

But, yeah, there are several ways how it could have been phrased in a more general and better way; with perhaps keeping the current "red rule" as an example on how a table can handle it.
That's putting it mildly.

Are you implying common sense is common?!? :shock: :tongue:
No.
But I do expect game designers to think about the ramifications of their own rules...:tongue:

Well, its usually the loud part of other groups that get noticed and becomes how that group is perceived.
Well, if nobody is willing to argue with them, those people might as well go with the loud voices when it comes to crucial decisions. How do you know, if you're not part of the group?

As I hadn't really got into Exalted enough before the old White Wolf forums went poof, I don't really know how the discussions actually looked like.
Neither do I. Never bothered registering:devil:!

So, for example, the references to people talking about Solar and Lunar run rape camps to breed Dragon-Bloods or Beastmen might have been something a tad different, and being filtered through someones lens.
Sounds like events from some of my campaigns, and some campaigns I've been in.
But then my players coined the phrase "sexual combat":shade:.

At least part of 3ed can be explained by a backlash against things like Lilun, and those rape camp discussions. Then I also think there is a certain amount of anxiety to be considered sexist, or whatever, which resulted in the draped over leg in the former mentioned picture.
True. Which is why I dislike people who have a tendency to overreact.
Alas, social media are full of those:evil:!

Still, I don't think all can be explained that way. Going from a "who the fuck cares about your plumbing; all that matters are if you are a Dragon-Blood, and if you can trace your lineage to the empress" type of Realm to the current "the Matriarchs of the house makes the decision" and "reversed sexism" Realm can't be explained with neither a backlash or prudishness.
Also agreed.
Which is why I'm mixing the descriptions from all three editions for my setting.
A somewhat related side-note... Does any male here think being selected to keep 99 women, not selected by you, pregnant a dream come true? Or am I alone in thinking that would be a freaking nightmare?
What?
Oh, you mean the Dragon-Blooded? Well, that would require Endurance/Resistance charms. Otherwise, in mortal men, the odds of conception fall sharply if they don't get a quite significant pause:gunslinger:.
The things you learn in life...
But yeah, it might well have been less than fun for all parties. But hey, "you spread you legs, you get it up, and both of you think of glorious battle!"

As I recall, the Realm was matriarchal since 1st edition, as was much of the East (a little ludicrous considering the size that it has mono culture as anything more than a trend...)
The East? Monoculture:shock:?
Definitely not how I remember it. And I re-read 1st edition today...:grin:

They just didn't show it much earlier. Women DB dominated the higher ranks and were generally considered more dependable, but it was relatively soft sexism.
Now, in the Central direction, yes...

Frankly the 'discussions' about rape camps is just more of what I meant. Yes, inhuman, insane, malignantly evil beings did horrible hings.
Who would have thought?!?

There weren't graphic description and illustrations. You were free to not use those items if imaginary atrocities upset you but demanding the game be rewritten to some lower age group just rubs me the wrong way (not that nice way I like to be rubbed, but I digress) the Empress' dress in that picture wasn't explicit, wasn't exploitative.

Heck the entire image spoke of her power and influence but she is a character that is aware of her beauty and conscious of its effects and used it as another weapon when needed. But from the reactions you'd think it depicted her with her legs thrown over the arms of her throne, demonstrating her hair color is most likely natural.
+1 to that as well.
I have always taken that story as the gods just looked at the humans as animals, and if you want to raise chicken, you don't get five hens and five roosters.
Of course!

I've noticed that some have taken that female to male ratio as just being an expression of male fantasy, and considering anything other than a 1:1 ratio being a horrible opinion. However, those making that claim tend to have a very different view of how the setting works in almost all regards.
All the poly people are laughing at them. And not in a friendly manner.
But, yeah, there's nothing to be gained from discussing the opinions of said group. It's literally a different setting in all but name:tongue:!

Terrestrials also are reputed to have stronger carnal appetites that mere mortal (and possibly most Celestials?), at least its been mention but it has no mechanical effect (Sexual Seduction isn't normally any easier, etc They don't think with their crotches, at least not as whole some might... :smile: ).
Alas! It would have made my task as a player that much easier...and given that Resistance is a Zenith skill, would have given new meaning to the phrase "religious exprience":tongue:!

Well, I'm not sure they had time to sell in a "sacred duty". But being selected by gods, and promised power and riches would probably do the trick.
Yes. People have done worse stuff for less reward.
Well, in both the earlier edition, there were both men and women as head of the house. In first edition, a couple married from two houses could themselves decide which house they would live with (or even move back and forth). In second edition, one moved to the other, but it could be either the man or the woman.

Then it is a few hundred million mortals and at least ten thousand Dragon-Bloods, so things could be taken as individual or local difference.

Not so much with 3ed...
Alas, true.
But then that's why I'm currently running Exalted with 1e books and Cepheus.

Yeah. And also, she is from a culture that isn't prudish or squeamish about sexuality. So that leg could also be taken as a powerful woman not giving a fuck if that person kneeling could see a bit of skin. She's busy inspecting the sword.
That's how I viewed it.
Painting over her leg was actually diminishing her power. "Oh noes, a male gaze cannot be allowed to venture over my legs! Doesn't matter that I can order his death on a whim, that would still lower my status!"

...yeah, right. Let's just say this attitude didn't make me popular!

The pose might have deliberate if that guy was important/worthy enough for an audience with Empress perhaps she wants to ensure a little more fealty with an unspoken promise (which she may have no intention of keeping...) or just through him off his game. Or heck maybe she's interested in him.
Or maybe she's just a tease. Because she can!

Regardless it doesn't speak to me as her being depicted as weak and exploited.
Yeah, same here.

Not a peep that I ever saw. For that matter, the picture for 3rd Dawn Sig character wearing nothing but a tiny "thong" with an imperial sigil right over his package was praised. Though he is generally depicted shirtless...
The less we comment the "quality" of 3e "art", the better, IMO:evil:.
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
The East? Monoculture:shock:?
Definitely not how I remember it. And I re-read 1st edition today...:grin:
As far as the Matriarchal aspect went, it seems odd to me that it was supposedly over the entire huge region but mentioned so little. The directional languages seems to bit artificial. Even if there was a more advanced communications network that fosters more wide spread language sharing, its would have been gone a long and though a few damn near apocalyptic events. Allot of time for substantial linguistic drift. We recast the directional languages as language families. Seemed to work all right considering hoe broad other skills are and you could specialize in a specific area if you wanted.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
2,814
As far as the Matriarchal aspect went, it seems odd to me that it was supposedly over the entire huge region but mentioned so little.
Agreed. They should have mentioned it more!
I mean, I didn't see it as much more weird than the whole South being patriarchal. There's good reasons for both:smile:.

The directional languages seems to bit artificial. Even if there was a more advanced communications network that fosters more wide spread language sharing, its would have been gone a long and though a few damn near apocalyptic events.
Yes, but I'd argue that this was done due to the desire for playability:wink:.

We recast the directional languages as language families. Seemed to work all right considering hoe broad other skills are and you could specialize in a specific area if you wanted.
That was, more or less, how I treated them as well. Though my approach was closer to "master language with dialects".
 

zapbus

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
14
Reaction score
14
Even if there was a more advanced communications network that fosters more wide spread language sharing, its would have been gone a long and though a few damn near apocalyptic events. Allot of time for substantial linguistic drift. We recast the directional languages as language families. Seemed to work all right considering hoe broad other skills are and you could specialize in a specific area if you wanted.
From what I remember, it was largely because the Directional languages were inherently magical in and of themselves, both being easier to learn as well as harmonizing with the specific direction they were based in. They were artificial creations, meant by the Solar Deliberative to be spoken by populations that lived in specific areas of the world, in some strange form of lingual Feng-Shui.

For one thing, the Directional Languages are significantly easier to pick and learn compared to real world languages. An ordinary human of average intellect can become both fully fluent and literate in one of the directional languages in a matter of weeks, rather than the years it might normally take to fully master a language to the same degree as a native speaker. For the other, they also stabilized the Essence of their corresponding Direction and Element, fortifying Creation against the Wyld. Both ease and utility were sufficient justifications for the existence of the Directional Languages.
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
From what I remember, it was largely because the Directional languages were inherently magical in and of themselves, both being easier to learn as well as harmonizing with the specific direction they were based in. They were artificial creations, meant by the Solar Deliberative to be spoken by populations that lived in specific areas of the world, in some strange form of lingual Feng-Shui.
I vaguely recall something like the being mentioned along with trade routes being "stabilizing" against the Wyld or some such, maybe it was a in a Jenna Moran book but it sounded silly to me, my players agreed so we ignored it. It sounded allot like "Oops, we need to make something up to explain this thing we handwaved before!" particularly after the smirking lectures about the "realism" of the setting compared to allegedly childish ones like the D and D settings resorting to "A wiz...Sidereal did it." to paper over inconsistencies felt really egregious.

I mean I was publicly lectured about how 'silly' it was to prefer the look of unarmed martial combat so want to see it be more effective mechanically (though it would take greater specialization and investment) because how much it would ruin the "realism" because it meant NO ONE would use weapons. Though carrying around a daiklave (or surfboard sized weapon of your choice) would still be a powerful, deadly and it wouldn't, ya know, not require you to live half your life in a dojo to be a highly effective way of make your enemies not live anymore. All courtesy of Stephenls.

And these are the same folks that have written an archipelago sized slum into the setting... with no means to support its population aside from "Its cool, go with it." One of my players did a pretty through analysis of the place.
 
Last edited:

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
2,814
I vaguely recall something like the being mentioned along with trade routes being "stabilizing" against the Wyld or some such, maybe it was a in a Jenna Moran book but it sounded silly to me, my players agreed so we ignored it.
Well, it's not themost solid of justifications...but it doesn't seem all that weird to me. The ancient ones believed that words have power, and arguably some people still do:smile:!

I mean I was publicly lectured about how 'silly' it was to prefer the look of unarmed martial combat so want to see it be more effective mechanically (though it would take greater specialization and investment) because how much it would ruin the "realism" because it meant NO ONE would use weapons. Though carrying around a daiklave (or surfboard sized weapon of your choice) would still be power, deadly and, ya know, not require you living half your life in the dojo to be a highly effective way of make your enemies not live anymore. All courtesy of Stephenls.
Well, it's hard to make PCs afraid of living in the gym:wink:!

And these are the same folks that have written an archipelago sized slum into the setting... with no means to support its population aside from "Its cool, go with it." One of my players did a pretty through analysis of the place.
I know, right?
I made up some ways for it to support its population - mostly relying on fungi, edible lichens, harvesting plankton and the like* - but yeah, it's tough to justify. And it would be a justification - many of those would cause real ecological damage to the surrounding area, and ultimately run out:grin:!
Then again, dwarves having fully underground cities in caverns runs into the same issues. And yet they do.
Most of all, I'd resort to the place being actually a giant Manse**, which has the people living there as one of its features:tongue:.

*People as source of protein included, occasionally.
**As a consequence, The Dirty Water Stone (Manse:*****) is losing more and more of its properties...because more and more is going into supporting said feature. This might explain why some power from other places has recently sponsored some mass killings in the city: the owner of the stone wants it to work at full power again:devil:!
 

FeralToaster

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
475
Reaction score
480
I vaguely recall something like the being mentioned along with trade routes being "stabilizing" against the Wyld or some such, maybe it was a in a Jenna Moran book but it sounded silly to me, my players agreed so we ignored it. It sounded allot like "Oops, we need to make something up to explain this thing we handwaved before!" particularly after the smirking lectures about the "realism" of the setting compared to allegedly childish ones like the D and D settings resorting to "A wiz...Sidereal did it." to paper over inconsistencies felt really egregious.
Huh, my group always thought that the "Order conferring trade pattern" (I think that was the name, might've got it wrong) and the earlier iteration of the directional languages as fortifications against the Wyld as one of the neater things of the setting. Basically we though it was an elaborate metaphor for the pitfalls of economics but using unreality monsters as substitutes for the important mundane perils that doesn't translate well to the high drama of the gaming table (y'know unchecked inflation, rapid deflation, etc). Sorta like the reading of Baum's Oz where it's actually all about the gold standard.

I mean I was publicly lectured about how 'silly' it was to prefer the look of unarmed martial combat so want to see it be more effective mechanically (though it would take greater specialization and investment) because how much it would ruin the "realism" because it meant NO ONE would use weapons. Though carrying around a daiklave (or surfboard sized weapon of your choice) would still be power, deadly and, ya know, not require you living half your life in the dojo to be a highly effective way of make your enemies not live anymore. All courtesy of Stephenls.
Oof, that sounds rough. I always thought that Exalted combat gameplay was glomming together three different genres; DnD combat which is purely a numbers game, High martial arts combat which is all the cool silly stuff that everybody like from DBZ and kitchen sink army combat which has the cool warstriders and zeppelins piloted by vikings. It only worked for us because we all acknowledged that the Rules as Written were uh, less than optimal.
 

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
Its someone ironic (and a little amusing) that much of the canon material I've chosen for my hodge podge Creation is material that met the most disapproval (or it at least felt like it) from the fanbase at the time like Lunars 1st Edition, the 1st corebook's description of the Realm and Infernal 2nd edition (the fluff not the mechanics....)
 

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
7,277
Reaction score
12,953
I'm reading Fair ?Folk now. My first thoughts are - this reminds me of reading White Wolf rulebooks back in the 90s. This iwsn't a good or bad thing, just a nostalgia thing. There was something particular to how oWoD books were organized and formatted that is so uniquelly 1990s that I can't help but find it equally charming and outdated.

On the other hand, it also, like so many White Wolf games from that time, shows the obvious sign of no playtesting. This is a designer regurgitating ideas straight from their head, and it seems at this point verging on un-playable. However, considering who the author is, it's still a fascinating read and probably could have been as good as Changeling: The Lost if it had gone through some refinement and revision. It is interesting how the "shaping" powers do mirror some of my own work on a Tarot-based magic system, even if she does play pretty fast and loose with actual associations of the Tarot suit.
 

Jetstream

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
515
Reaction score
525
I'm reading Fair ?Folk now. My first thoughts are - this reminds me of reading White Wolf rulebooks back in the 90s. This iwsn't a good or bad thing, just a nostalgia thing. There was something particular to how oWoD books were organized and formatted that is so uniquelly 1990s that I can't help but find it equally charming and outdated.

On the other hand, it also, like so many White Wolf games from that time, shows the obvious sign of no playtesting. This is a designer regurgitating ideas straight from their head, and it seems at this point verging on un-playable. However, considering who the author is, it's still a fascinating read and probably could have been as good as Changeling: The Lost if it had gone through some refinement and revision. It is interesting how the "shaping" powers do mirror some of my own work on a Tarot-based magic system, even if she does play pretty fast and loose with actual associations of the Tarot suit.
That pretty much describes the mechanics in a lot of old Exalted books. They were on such a tight schedule that sometimes there wasn't any playtesting. Or even adequate editing.
 

TJS

Legendary Member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
249
Reaction score
413
Has that really changed?

Aren't table top rpgs still pretty obviously under-playtested? God knows how many games has grabbed my attention in the last few years, only for it to become obvious, just through reading, that they have pretty big issues that would have been caught if any real playtesting had been done.

I've wondered at times if that's been a factor in the popularity of the OSR (Just general exhaustion with new rpg systems that fundamentally don't work).
 

Marktplatz

Ruffian
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
33
Reaction score
41
The setting and genre never interested me at all, but if it's your thing people say it's pretty fun.
 

FeralToaster

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
475
Reaction score
480
I'm reading Fair ?Folk now. My first thoughts are - this reminds me of reading White Wolf rulebooks back in the 90s. This iwsn't a good or bad thing, just a nostalgia thing. There was something particular to how oWoD books were organized and formatted that is so uniquelly 1990s that I can't help but find it equally charming and outdated.

On the other hand, it also, like so many White Wolf games from that time, shows the obvious sign of no playtesting. This is a designer regurgitating ideas straight from their head, and it seems at this point verging on un-playable. However, considering who the author is, it's still a fascinating read and probably could have been as good as Changeling: The Lost if it had gone through some refinement and revision. It is interesting how the "shaping" powers do mirror some of my own work on a Tarot-based magic system, even if she does play pretty fast and loose with actual associations of the Tarot suit.
my first response when someone point the combined unbridled creativity and slacker laziness of that period of White Wolf is "I know right". I try to downplay my love of nostalgia (for the most part) but reading something that was conceptually pure awesome while also realizing that the rules for it were slap-dash at best was a core part of me becoming a gamer (and then being given the GM role and told I have twenty minutes to come up with a Sailor Moon adventure but I digress).

All that being said I find it a great strength of the writer that I've been wracking my brain for a game that uses the Tarot in a similar manner and I'm coming up empty handed. The closest I could think of were the side stories entries of the Persona video franchise but those were more thematic uses then mechanical.
 

zapbus

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
14
Reaction score
14
Its someone ironic (and a little amusing) that much of the canon material I've chosen for my hodge podge Creation is material that met the most disapproval (or it at least felt like it) from the fanbase at the time like Lunars 1st Edition
:blah:

I think it's position as "one of the worst books 1E ever put out" is pretty appropriate. And I say this having started Exalted during 2E and only looking over the 1E books years later.

I think, what frustrated me most about 1E Lunars, was the notion that somehow Luna would revoke your Exaltation if you refused to adhere to a Conan cliche. Because what's the point of Prometheus giving fire to mortals if he can just take it back any time they fail to adhere to a theme?

I think Exalted 3E is probably the edition that is most favorable to Lunars and Dragonblooded, both in terms of fluff and mechanics. At least 2E Lunars was serviceable but had glaring issues in terms of charm design, knacks, and the fact that the Thousand Streams River was nearly ungameable as a concept.
 
Last edited:

Nexus

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
226
Reaction score
306
I'm reading Fair ?Folk now. My first thoughts are - this reminds me of reading White Wolf rulebooks back in the 90s. This isn't a good or bad thing, just a nostalgia thing. There was something particular to how oWoD books were organized and formatted that is so uniquely 1990s that I can't help but find it equally charming and outdated.

On the other hand, it also, like so many White Wolf games from that time, shows the obvious sign of no playtesting. This is a designer regurgitating ideas straight from their head, and it seems at this point verging on un-playable. However, considering who the author is, it's still a fascinating read and probably could have been as good as Changeling: The Lost if it had gone through some refinement and revision. It is interesting how the "shaping" powers do mirror some of my own work on a Tarot-based magic system, even if she does play pretty fast and loose with actual associations of the Tarot suit.
You're a more persistent (and likely more intelligent) man that I am. Moran/Bergstrom just loses me. In large part due to her tendency to create and start using jargon before she define it, sometimes a chapter or more. On top of that her/Exalted desired concept for the Fair Folk just didn't really grab me for use in a game, too alien, to outside the perspective of game with too much 'cute' meta commentary that the author came across as feeling was just incredibly clever and precious... like allot of things in "Indie" game, IME.

The Sidereal book had the same issues for me compounded by the attitude of "These are the real Unsung Heroes of Creation" 'tude that it felt it beat you over the head with.
 
Top