Ghost Whistler
Legendary Pubber
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Not cool.The last time I saw a poetic sperg out like that, my friend forgot his anxiety meds.
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Not cool.The last time I saw a poetic sperg out like that, my friend forgot his anxiety meds.
You know that I don't care one bit about the White Wolf/Onyx Path marketing, right? In fact, you're the one who told me that they pretended anime hasn't been an influence.Sure they do so does allot of mythology include things that aren't 'realistic'. I never said otherwise. Using and embracing the fantastic is kind of the point of mythology.
But claiming that the conventions of popular media and games of the time had NOTHING to do with the using them...in a game/setting that stole brazenly from those sources in other ways including the structure of its mechanics and even its jargon is a load of crap meant to make them sound smarter and more enlightened than the average nerd.
Like the claims the Aberrant didn't have silly costumes like those...*sniff down nose* comic..books. It has, uh, Signature Clothing, yeah that's it.Oh yeah, ignore the super names, powers, groups of evil mutants villains plotting to take over the world, improbable essentially magical technology, etc etc. This NotThe Super Fri- errr comic books, you philistines!
*eyeroll*
WW and its spiritual descendants have a tradition of trying to come across as 'smarter, better read, classier, etc' than the audience they're blatantly aiming for as it makes their customer base (or a vocal portion of it) feel superior for using them so they more easily justify or excuse the shitty writing, wonky schedules, asshole staff, etc, to get their superiority fix.
Heck the superiority and maturity of Exalted with its Buster Swords and Magical Battlemechs over mere childish D and D* was a big part of the marketing scheme for Exalted just like the vaunted (and over hyped) 'maturity' of the World(s) of Darkness was a part of its
*D and D isn't my cuppa but I'm not going to pretend mine is the more manly butch and mature way to play Let's Pretend I just enjoy acting like to dudes that wear funny outfits and smack around criminal in equally ludicrous gear, super spies with cybernetic implants and space men shooting ray guns at aliens (between showing the pretty ones more of that Earth thing called kissing) more.
Exalted is one of my favorite settings but I was never able to find a suitable setting with which to run it. I am open to suggestions.
The three things I'd want, but I can't afford to get.I would recommend Godbound. The Free edition is here:
DriveThruRPG
www.drivethrurpg.com
The Premium version has an appendix that converts a number of specific Exalted concepts to the system including specific Exalted types, Warstriders and martial arts.
"Run it in a place where they don't get to meet Exalts, at least not yet", is my first point.
After that? Basically, anyone makes a fantasy-appropriate character, by using my system of "assign 15 dice to the six attributes, then roll (but you only take the highest two".
For the stages after that, I mixed liberally Cepheus Engine core (reskinning the career tables) with Worlds Apart, from whence the Events came, and even some supplements like High School and Graduate School. Those were necessary, because the only character so far is a high-Social unexalted scion of Kathak (which would have what amounts to higher education in the setting), currently stationed in the South.
And then taking the Essence rating of gods, elementals, demons, ghosts and fae, and assigning it as skill in their magic/psionic effects using "Easy Magic for Cepheus Engine" covers the rest. If necessary, it can be mixed with the ritual magic from Of Realms Unbounded/2d6 Magic to produce other necessary effects, and some artefacts or thaumaturgic items.
Also, I reduced the time of terms to 2 years (though university+graduate school still amounted to 6 years instead as a special exception), and had them start "university" at 14. IMO, that's enough time to learn the "narrower" skills used in Cepheus Engine (as opposed to the broader ones in CT). And many ancient societies expected people to become responsible adults far earlier than us, so it fits.
That's all the changes I'm making. I guess it's possible the characters might Exalt later.
If it becomes necessary, I'd consider giving them some access to magic, or even remaking them as Exalted characters. Sidereals 1e is looking shamelessly at me!
Though I might end up using some other system again, or retain Cepheus.I like the background, though!
I agree in general with your point about dice pools but you're talking about 18 dice there!Well, the system in Exalted 2nd ed has quite a few things going for it.
* The pool system can help those not good at math quickly pick together their pool. They don't have to know how to quickly add (4+3)*2+2+2 in their head. Just pick up 4 dices twice, 3 dices twice, then 2 and 2 more. The right amount is what they are holding in their hand.
* Fixed target number (unless involving Sid shenanigans) works on pattern recognition, which actually is a quite strong in humans. Just take a while for it to kick in. But then, recognizing successes becomes quite a bit faster (unless being stuck in the "I need to count" mentality).
* The odds of getting at least one success on 5 dices is about 92%, which fits the fluff about 2 being average. 5 dices would mean a normal professional being good at what they do, but nothing exceptional.
Now, when adding an exception based power system without a tight management on their creation, or when not understanding what a 4 actually means among mortals making it far to common.
Then, even if it is a well designed system, it still doesn't mean jack if people are expecting another result from it; and communicating their system (including internally) seems to be ... a tad flawed.
The three things I'd want, but I can't afford to get.
For me, adding up the numbers in my head and then put it into some app would definitely be faster. On the other hand, I've seen people using a calculator to add up the result for a 3D10 roll, because they couldn't add up three single digit numbers in their head.I agree in general with your point about dice pools but you're talking about 18 dice there!
We always found that incredibly awkward. Just too much to quickly gather and awkward to role without them getting mixing in with other people's dice or even (with that many) to count out all the dice and then count out all the successes. We always found it easier to use a palm pilot (this was in the days before smart phones) which of course meant we did have to do all that maths.
The combat system is good, but grinds to a halt when you introduce Charms. Still, I find it a nice way to represent the jockeying for position inherent in many styles...I have to say that 3E seems to be kind of underrated here. Admittedly, being better than 1E and 2E is a low bar, but I'd honestly be willing to play 3E even if it weren't tied to the setting. I couldn't say that about 2E or even 1E.
3E is crunchy, yeah, but I'd argue that it's definitely not more complicated than 2E, and with less issues with things like 2E's infamous Paranoia Combat. I'd argue that tracking Initiative is much simpler than tracking Ticks, for example, especially since 3E's Initiative involves simple addition and subtraction with damage, going down from highest number to lowest number, while 2E's Tick Combat needed you to track the Speed and JB values of every individual combatant, and those values also varied from action to action. On the whole I'd prefer initiative, especially since it encourages a more aggressive mode of play rather than the more passive resource drain of prior editions, which just made things into a grind. At least with 3E, hitting someone quickly with your biggest and flashiest attack is a good move instead of a bad one. It was definitely 2E's biggest issue, where you needed to grind through every last one of your enemy's regenerating Mote pool in order to hurt them, and you never wanted to spend more on an attack than an opponent spent on a defense. You would have to chip away at your opponent, slowly, with bland and basic attacks.
While I like both games, I feel that both Exalted vs. WoD and Godbound repeat Exalted 1E's and 2E's problems, though both games use more limited pools of resources so it's not as bad as 2E. But all three games still have issues with dead turns, wherein a defender can simply fiat away an incoming blow at a flat cost, effectively turning the whole round into a redundancy. I feel these games are too heavily weighted towards attrition, resource management, and taking a slow and cautious approach that makes combat drag on far longer than it ought.
That's not to say Exalted 3E is perfect: it has issues with some of its subsystems, such as Craft being overly convoluted, and the fact that its massive charm lists can cause option paralysis. In my experience though, having run 2E for years and then 3E, is that you absolutely should not bother memorizing every single charm in the game. It's a fool's errand, regardless of edition. If a player wants to use a Charm, have him declare it and then reference it quickly. Generally it's just a simple effect like "I reroll 1's and add a bonus success" anyways.
With that said though, 3E does have a combat system that I think is genuinely good. At a minimum, I'd be willing to play other games that use something similar. It also has some fairly impressive social mechanics too, which I think did an incredible job of modeling human interaction aside from saying 'don't bother with dice, just roleplay it.'
Plus, some of the new fluff and locations are neat.
3E is crunchy, yeah, but I'd argue that it's definitely not more complicated than 2E...
The combat system is good, but grinds to a halt when you introduce Charms. Still, I find it a nice way to represent the jockeying for position inherent in many styles...
Ditto for the social system. Ironically, both would be better for a game of heroic mortals!
Now, what I really like about the 3e system is the Sorcery system, especially separating sorcerous motes from the normal pool, and adding rituals to replenish them. Also, the Workings are neat.
The crafting system? I'm yet to see a game that didn't ditch it completely. Yes, that includes the game I was running!
But the thing I hate the most is, of course, the fact that martial arts only work for Essence-users now! (Also I've never played in any game that retained that...at least not the ones that lasted long enough for me to ask the GM).
Some of the new setting bits are nice. Others make me wish for a return of the older editions!
I'd argue its definitely not more complicated than HERO either XD
2e is way more complex than it should be. It mainly got a pass from Exalted fans as it was built pretty closely on top of what had come before, so the increase in complexity was not insurmountable. In contrast 3e expected people to jump straight into to that same level of complexity from a much lower starting point, which had a predictable result.
Eh, if anything I'd argue that maybe 3E was too conservative and retained too many of 2E's legacy mechanics. In practice, I'd consider Initiative an acceptable trade for Ticks: it requires an adjustment, but once you're familiar with with the Withering/Decisive split there's far less baggage. A scoreboard is far easier to keep note of than the 2E Tick Wheel. OTOH 3E's Social mechanics are outright superior, I find. It's a much more engaging minigame, at least.
This almost feels like you are damning 3e with faint praise. You have no argument from me that 2e was an atrocious mess. But you aren't helping 3e's case by making comparison with 2e. The only real advantage 2e had over 3e was that it was the system was recognisable from a starting point that most Exalted players had already tolerated and many simply ignored those bits that were added that didn't work.
3e is more mechanically robust than 2e but it is very much an RPG designed by fans over an extended period of time and it suffers the flaw that I have seen in a number of games in recent years that had the same approach. The various components of the mechanics hold up OK on their own, but as a package its a nightmare. The errata to 2e was exactly the same kind of mess and it is clear that lessons weren't learnt in that process.
The 3rd edition combat system drive me out of my tree for a few reasons but allot of people seem to enjoy it. I found it a tedious over complicated grind personally with a ton of charms that basically mean fiddling little dice games.
I'd argue its definitely not more complicated than HERO either XD
Honestly, 2E is the Edition I'm most qualified to make comparisons against, given that I ran the thing for years.
In terms of Scroll of Errata, the difference you point out is simply a result of how the errata was presented in light of the existing material. However, most of the issues that I have with 3e are obvious to me in 2e, to the point where 3e feels very much a continuation and culmination of that errata (just with less book flipping ).
It worked well for our group, at least, and led to more than a few fun moments. There's enough back and forth that even a single lucky shot at the right moment can lead to some fairly tense moments. The Dice Tricks are... dull but serviceable, and kind of exaggerated in their importance. There are at most three or four out of an entire tree (Craft excepted), and seem mainly function to make combat swingy enough that a PC can get lucky and swing above their weight class.
You do realize that they're no heavier to the user than a normal weapon would be to you and me, right?
While I like both games, I feel that both Exalted vs. WoD and Godbound repeat Exalted 1E's and 2E's problems, though Godbound/ExWoD/1E use more limited pools of resources so none of them are as bad as 2E. But all three games still have issues with dead turns, wherein a defender can simply fiat away an incoming blow at a flat cost, effectively turning the whole round into a redundancy. I feel these games are too heavily weighted towards attrition, resource management, and taking a slow and cautious approach that makes combat drag on far longer than it ought.
Yes, I know. I just find the aesthetic "not my thing." I did make a character with a giant boomerang once, sadly didn't get to play it. Might have changed my mind if I did, who knows? If you like it, rock on!
My problem is really just that that's not my preferred style of play for Exalted. I like the less powerful Exalted types a lot better than I like the Solars. I like addressing the finer details. I like the PCs to actually have to interact with the setting, not just smash their way through it. And Godbound doesn't support any of that.
Its odd. I've seen the opinion that the Solar were "overpowered" and ran roughshod over the setting, never having to interact with setting but in years of running almost nothing but Solars I never ran into the issue. If anything they came across as overhyped and I had to tone the opposition even the Exalts described as weaker or less and the PC still spent allot time, scrounging to survive and hiding behind the skirt of their alleged lessers to protection *shrug*
It's really the badly conceived effects from Exalted 2E that caused issues. Stuff like Taboo Inflicting Diatribe, where you could change the laws of a nation overnight as long as you succeed on a roll and spend the motes. So you could run a few sessions where you're a Spartacus style slave liberator, but why bother when you can just have a brief conversation with a citizen of a specific nation-state and then use Taboo Inflicting Diatribe. And now all slaves are emancipated overnight. Nevermind that this is what the economy of the affected nation banked on, and there's really no logical reason for them to go along with it except for the fact that the charm says they will.
A lot of the Solar charms in 2E boiled down to "well, you just win" for anything not related to combat, and that doesn't make for very interesting stories. Granted combat itself is not a guaranteed victory for a Solar, even in 2E, but 2E's combat system had a lot of its own issues. But in terms of noncombat related obstacles, a Solar could simply handwave a great deal of problems away with just their charms. 3E scales this down, and I feel that's to the overall benefit of the game.
I don't mind that Exalted vs. WoD uses a more 1E/2E style approach for its charms though, simply because Exalted vs WoD isn't about Exalts negotiating epic obstacles; it's largely about Exalts bonking Werewolves over the head with steel chairs
Huh? That's not how I interpreted that charm. I interpret it so it makes it shameful on owning slaves, which could mean emancipation in time. However, it doesn't change anyone wanting or not wanting to own slaves. So mainly it just makes people stumbling over each other trying to rephrase slaveowning into something else; gossiping about those slave owners, while we proper and decent people have "lifetime employees" (to steal a phrase from the Swedish RPG Noir).So you could run a few sessions where you're a Spartacus style slave liberator, but why bother when you can just have a brief conversation with a citizen of a specific nation-state and then use Taboo Inflicting Diatribe. And now all slaves are emancipated overnight. Nevermind that this is what the economy of the affected nation banked on, and there's really no logical reason for them to go along with it except for the fact that the charm says they will.
Unless you find the consequences of succeeding making interesting stories. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," "winning the fights, but losing the war," and all that.A lot of the Solar charms in 2E boiled down to "well, you just win" for anything not related to combat, and that doesn't make for very interesting stories.
Huh? That's not how I interpreted that charm. I interpret it so it makes it shameful on owning slaves, which could mean emancipation in time. However, it doesn't change anyone wanting or not wanting to own slaves. So mainly it just makes people stumbling over each other trying to rephrase slaveowning into something else; gossiping about those slave owners, while we proper and decent people have "lifetime employees" (to steal a phrase from the Swedish RPG Noir).
Unless you find the consequences of succeeding making interesting stories. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," "winning the fights, but losing the war," and all that.
Well, it also says "The character must have spent several hours within the last month encouraging the desired attitude within this group before using this Charm, and this Charm must be invoked in the presence of at least one member of that group."Well, I have the relevant bits here:
"The society instantly integrates the taboo or fad into its Policy. The taboo or fad remains part of the group’s Policy until the group’s leader spends a total of 10 Loyalty, at most one per week, to remove it. It is also a part of the Policy of any social groups of Magnitude 1+ that splinter off from the target group, and the leader of those groups must spend a total of 10 Loyalty, at most one per week, to remove it. This Charm has no effect on individuals, save that breaking the new rules of their society can make them outcasts"
Well, it also says "The character must have spent several hours within the last month encouraging the desired attitude within this group before using this Charm, and this Charm must be invoked in the presence of at least one member of that group."
I take the "par of the Policy" to be the technical terms for how the group works from a rule mechanic point of view. So we have a bit of different views on what they were trying to say.
However, that was the charm I was thinking of when I wrote quite a few posts ago. I think that charm works, if the time spent is a lot more than "several hours withing the last month", or the result is toned down. Perhaps just creating a minor intimacy for the majority, or a major for a smaller sub-group.
Ramping up the time, and doing it over a month, means plenty of time for a Wyld Hunt, or other powers, to take notice.
Is Exalted 3rd still rocking Lillun?
They haven't got that far into the splats or modules to have where she would potentially show up. However, to my understanding that is one of the things they plan to rewrite completely.Is Exalted 3rd still rocking Lillun?
They haven't got that far into the splats or modules to have where she would potentially show up. However, to my understanding that is one of the things they plan to rewrite completely.
Yeah. I used a bit more diplomatic phrasing, in case they have changed the entire company until it is time to write the new version of the Infernals.Yeah the devs were pretty emphatic about that on the Discord