James Gillen
Proud to be an American
- Joined
- May 28, 2018
- Messages
- 798
- Reaction score
- 1,895
Sex Moves? You mean like Marital Arts?If we include Sex Moves they protest. If we include NO SEX MOVES ALLOWED they protest too. I give up. XD
jg
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
Sex Moves? You mean like Marital Arts?If we include Sex Moves they protest. If we include NO SEX MOVES ALLOWED they protest too. I give up. XD
Like this, but with more Play Books, usually!Sex Moves? You mean like Marital Arts?
jg
Not unless you already wanted to. There’s still such a thing as an unacceptable order. Exalted in its current state doesn’t have outright mind-control powers. Even extraordinary persuasiveness relies on existing Intimacies and can’t instantly bypass people’s core values.Because it feels artificial to me and a bit silly. Its easier to talk you into killing your wife than seducing cheat on her.
The way social influence works in 3e (and by extension Essence), you can build a character to be harder to influence, but that’s not the issue here. The real question is whether it’s ever a good idea to force a sexual encounter on a character whose player doesn’t consent to it and isn’t comfortable with it, and I’m having trouble seeing how there’s even a debate to be had there. It’s not about whether they had the foresight to spend points on anti-rape defenses.If you want your character to be very resistant to being seduced there were ways to build that mechanically, just as there were ways to make them resistant to harming their beloved. Hopefully there are similar ways in Essence.
I still don't see the problem, even if they do say it's critical. It's your game, and if you don't want to play with it... don't. And if I player insists otherwise, then they just don't play in your game.As I said, that's already what I do.
But it helps if the optional nature of whatever it is is including as its keeps the complaints and bickering to low roar, IME. That's all I was wondering about since from the production notes I'd seen the presence of the so called Red Rule was emphasized as if it was critical with nothing mentioned so far about it being optional or working without it. I hope that it was included as it might make my life easier if I adopted this game.
I don't enjoy bickering and, as I said, IME having something like the 'Red Rule' noted as optional helps cut down on it.I still don't see the problem, even if they do say it's critical. It's your game, and if you don't want to play with it... don't. And if I player insists otherwise, then they just don't play in your game.
Not unless you already wanted to. There’s still such a thing as an unacceptable order. Exalted in its current state doesn’t have outright mind-control powers. Even extraordinary persuasiveness relies on existing Intimacies and can’t instantly bypass people’s core values
There is Unnatural Mental influence and a character may not have made "love of spouse" a Defining Intimacy.
I have no idea who the Hell Adam Koebel is. I talk to the players and tell them what can possibly occur in the game, get their opinion on various aspects of so everyone knows what to expect before we begin. I don't feel that offering that a certain rule is optional is 'giving permission to be creepy' or whatever.There’s not going to be explicit allowance in the book to play without the Red Rule, since it’s a safety tool to prevent sexual harassment and non-consensual stuff at the table, and the writers are not going to spell out permission to do that. GMs forcing sexual encounters on players is the stuff scandals and creepy gamer stories are made of. It’s why Adam Koebel is persona non grata right now. It’s potentially harmful in a way that a character getting hurt in combat just isn’t.
The player knows its a possibility in the game. If you don't want it to happen to your character you can construct it to make seduction exceptionally difficult, even practically impossible for most beings, just they might build up physical abilities if they don't want their character hurt very often. But that's not the case for most beings in the setting. I'm not entirely sure how things went from seduction to rape.The way social influence works in 3e (and by extension Essence), you can build a character to be harder to influence, but that’s not the issue here. The real question is whether it’s ever a good idea to force a sexual encounter on a character whose player doesn’t consent to it and isn’t comfortable with it, and I’m having trouble seeing how there’s even a debate to be had there. It’s not about whether they had the foresight to spend points on anti-rape defenses.
If they weren't 'okay with it' they shouldn't have gotten into the game once they were informed of our playstyle. It seems odd that anyone would be that caught up in whether or not an imaginary avatar has sex in a game/interactive fiction yet would be fine with them being killed, maimed, robbed, made into an unwilling killer or all the other potential horrific fates that can befall a character. I guess I may have done a poor job explaining things or the player didn't fully gasp it but is that case they don't have to continue playing in the game.If the player is okay with it, then there’s no problem. The Red Rule is explicitly for when they’re not okay with it, in which case what are you even trying to do?
Indeed!Anyway, it seems like we've both said our piece and its going pretty fair from Exalted Essence. So perhaps we should agree to disagree.
People in real life are a lot more likely to have had traumas associated with violations of their sexual agency than with murder. The Red Rule is about emphasizing certain boundaries that are more viscerally felt by a larger number of people.Because it feels artificial to me and a bit silly. Its easier to talk you into killing your wife than seducing cheat on her.
I'm fairly certain I know the answer for this one, but it can't hurt to ask. Are there any options given for more concrete measurements and methods for handling topics like movement and positioning?It’s much the same but with streamlining. The combat chapter gives you a pretty clear picture.
People in real life are a lot more likely to have had traumas associated with violations of their sexual agency than with murder. The Red Rule is about emphasizing certain boundaries that are more viscerally felt by a larger number of people.
Yeah, I've had my doubts as well...Who says that? I see this justification about "rape is worse than murder" all the time, but it's never backed up by data. It's more like an article of faith, at this point.
More importantly, it completely lacks any context. What can be true in a European country is most definitely not true in e.g. Syria. And even in the good old U.S. of A. (the place from where most certainly this originated), just the sheer number of war veterans makes it a dubious assumption.
I've never actually seen that. It's just that if you're murdered, you're not likely to be around carrying that weight, right?Who says that? I see this justification about "rape is worse than murder" all the time, but it's never backed up by data. It's more like an article of faith, at this point.
I've never actually seen that. It's just that if you're murdered, you're not likely to be around carrying that weight, right?
You’re right, the last line (although arguably true) is more of a throwaway, and does change the content of the post, pushing the discussion over the line.I reluctantly thumbed that post... that last bit throws a bit of 'meh' onto the truth of the other statements. Provide whatever tools people might need. Use or not use them for your campaign.
And if there's bickering over your ruling that this rule won't be in play- you've dodged a bullet early. Drop them like an anvil and move on.
Well since you brought up US war veterans (constitute about 10% of the country's adult population), an article from the actual US Department of Veterans Affairs citing research estimating that about 10% of all boys and 25% of all girls in the country have been victims of childhood sexual abuse might be a compelling place to start.Who says that?
Wait, Sex Moves was serious?Sex Moves? You mean like Marital Arts?
jg
What are those?Wait, Sex Moves was serious?
"Sex moves" come from Apocalypse World. The game is highly class/archetype-based with the overall concept "there is not enough of anything any more, how do you deal with that"; "sex moves" show how each archetype reacts to intimacy and gives it some mechanical teeth.What are those?
Indeed. It doesn't matter why someone doesn't want a particular element in their game; as noted, this is Roleplaying Night, not Psychotherapy Night. They're simply saying an element that they don't want to have at the table; they're not trying to take over the game or force you to help them work through their issues. Given that these people are presumably your friends, it feels rude to not take that into consideration.Like, I'd personally not have onscreen sex scenes at the gaming table. I just don't like the idea. I've never had a traumatic experience with sex in my life, there's not a question of safety, it's certainly not a matter of moral disapproval because sex is morally fine and also I'm dandy with all sorts of immoral violence in games, it just feels icky to describe imaginary people having sex in that particular context. (If that's your jam, of course, more power to you.)
So it's just how the characters react to romantic events?"Sex moves" come from Apocalypse World. The game is highly class/archetype-based with the overall concept "there is not enough of anything any more, how do you deal with that"; "sex moves" show how each archetype reacts to intimacy and gives it some mechanical teeth.
What they are explicitly not in any way, shape, or form are "rules for having sex"; the game handles that in the same way as almost every other RPG ever has (eg. it doesn't).
Intimacy more than romance, but yeah, basically.So it's just how the characters react to romantic events?
What else did you even think they are? The Hardholder has a Sex Move that says he gives a present to the other party, and the Battlebabe has a Sex Move that says "no strings attached (including mechanical ones), ya can't use the night to puppet me, sucker", IIRC.So it's just how the characters react to romantic events?
Exalted?Even the most famous game for including sex, AW, is not about having sex scenes rp'ed out at the table. Is there a game that does that, besides FATAL?
Well, to be fair to me, I'm kinda a used to White Wolf's renaming of things to mean something else. So it could have implied something less romantic. I mean, violence is an intimate situation. Intimate doesn't always mean pleasant...What else did you even think they are? The Hardholder has a Sex Move that says he gives a present to the other party, and the Battlebabe has a Sex Move that says "no strings attached (including mechanical ones), ya can't use the night to puppet me, sucker", IIRC.
What actual moves were used is besides the point...
Yup, and the game ackownledges that too, in a way: everytime someone hurts you (a punch, a shot, etc) you gain Hx with him (Hx = history together, used to influence the recipient back later).Well, to be fair to me, I'm kinda a used to White Wolf's renaming of things to mean something else. So it could have implied something less romantic. I mean, violence is an intimate situation. Intimate doesn't always mean pleasant...
Well, to be fair to me, I'm kinda a used to White Wolf's renaming of things to mean something else. So it could have implied something less romantic. I mean, violence is an intimate situation. Intimate doesn't always mean pleasant...
But, key difference, you only apply Sex Moves when you've had sex.Yup, and the game ackownledges that too, in a way: everytime someone hurts you (a punch, a shot, etc) you gain Hx with him (Hx = history together, used to influence the recipient back later).
You may be kidding, but you and White Wolf are on the same page. One year as an April Fools joke they released The Scroll of Swallowing Darkness - a supplement of (playable, rules-compatible) sex charms for Exalted.Exalted?
Just kidding, though there are Charms that deal with sex (and probably many more have been homebrewed, including some by me:p). And if you want to use the social system for it, it would work.
I know, I've read it. I wasn't kidding at all, other than "I thought it's an obvious one". Also, in 3e the Performance Charms are broken down by activity - one of them being "sex".You may be kidding, but you and White Wolf are on the same page. One year as an April Fools joke they released The Scroll of Swallowing Darkness - a supplement of (playable, rules-compatible) sex charms for Exalted.
My players know that forcing me to flirt with them in character is an automatic 'rocks fall, everyone dies' situation.And BTW, I would also recommend against playing that kind of stuff out with a group you aren't already extremely comfortable with!
What were some changes and streamlining?It’s much the same but with streamlining. The combat chapter gives you a pretty clear picture.
Yup, that reflects my experience. One of my groups was majority women and it was the one that leaned most towards flirt and sex and intimacy aspects (we had some nice Monsterhearts sessions at the time).One more thing on the topic of sex [...] I have noticed it tends to be more prevalent among online and PBEM groups or, surprisingly to me, all or most women regardless of medium
Well, it is a kind of downtime!One more thing on the topic of sex in RPGing, personally and anecdotally, I know of several groups that handle it in game. They do so because they enjoy it just like some groups enjoy playing out gearing up or what many groups might call down time or dislike extensive combat, etc.
My wife: "And this guy is surprised why?"I have noticed it tends to be more prevalent among online and PBEM groups or, surprisingly to me, all or most women regardless of medium.
Any game (or no game) can handle it. Also, the detail ranges from PG-13 to R-rated. And I mean the R from the "Salo".The level of detail ranges from PG-13 to NC-17, either as background fluff and detail, bluebook material, side 'fics' or fully developed and involved in the game, perhaps with mechanics though I haven't run to a totally satisfactory of those. Exalted 3rd could handle it, IMO, maybe with a little tinkering.
Chorus:"Yes, Yes, Let's Go For IT!"I don't think there's anything wrong taking things either way. Sex can be fun to handle or even just discuss (look at how its partially diverted this thread ). I agree that everyone involved just be on the same page and willing but that goes for many elements that might come up in rpgs. But if everyone is having fun, go for it.
You're JUST THAT GOOD at flirting, aren't you?My players know that forcing me to flirt with them in character is an automatic 'rocks fall, everyone dies' situation.
It’s much easier if you go read the combat chapter preview. It’s not particularly long. The addition of power rather than initiative is a good example of a change. Initiative is a good example of streamlining.What were some changes and streamlining?