Far West 12th Anniversary

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I can see your point, but I don't know that I could discuss that in-depth without falling into politics. I don't support harassment for any reason, , but I think "voting with your dollars" is a perfectly valid choice and doesn't represent any form of harassment. You are of course correct that Modiphius had no obligation to reveal their creators, but that doesnt seem to be the issue, it's the dishonesty in the way they went about it (which is also the main issue with GMS regarding the Kickstarter).

I have no opinion on the theory regarding a pseudonym put forth in the link in the OP by Tenkar, it seems to be pure conjecture from all that I saw, but I do think Modiphius have made a major PR error that has lost them trust.

All I care about is if I like their games and content. This other stuff just clouds the water in my opinion and I think our focus on the wholesomeness of creators and publishers is not healthy for having good material published. It feels like the ‘wholefoodsification of the hobby. But I also think there is enormous rush to judgment and online mob pressure in these cases that lead to very unjust outcomes. I just get get behind it.
 
I really do not get the outrage here. I understand people being angry over a kickstarter. I don't understand why people care if someone gets freelance work. I can't keep track of all the outrage and boycotts these days. But never a fan of trying to take work away from someone. All my interactions with Gareth have been positive. And he has a history of solid design. I get that the kickstarter left some people upset. But the obsession with it seems a bit disproportionate. If people want to take the guy to court because they feel they were wronged, they are free to do so. But I am absolutely done participating in these trials of public opinion to destroy peoples lives and careers.

As for whether Mophidius is being shady. I don't know. Writers use pseudonyms all the time. I don't think companies have to cater to peoples' desires to withhold buying from individuals they dislike. If they had wanted to they could have just had him write a bunch of stuff, paid him, and never mentioned his name at all. It is entirely up to them and him how the credits situation gets handled. Not sure if those screenshots prove anything though.

Yeah but without axe-grinding what else would Tenkar have to post about? He may actually be forced to post actual gameable material. :clown:
 
Those are some strange ethical arguments. So if Bernie Madoff were to be paroled, a financial services company shouldn't think twice about what it means to hire him. And if they hire him and try to hide the fact, there's nothing shady about that and it's people pointing out the shadiness who are in the wrong. Got it.

Valid point but it raises the question of whether comparing a failed KS to Bernie Madoff is morally accurate? Even with the years of transparent equivocating about the KS I'd personally say no.

And hopefully without tripping too far into politics I will say that some of the online outrage seems, shall we say, selective in its targets. I think a lot of it is thinly veiled tribalism being conducted by other means.

To me the clearly abusive behaviour online would be more of concern to me as an employer.
 
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All I care about is if I like their games and content. This other stuff just clouds the water in my opinion and I think our focus on the wholesomeness of creators and publishers is not healthy for having good material published. It feels like the ‘wholefoodsification of the hobby. But I also think there is enormous rush to judgment and online mob pressure in these cases that lead to very unjust outcomes. I just get get behind it.

I guess I'm just not seeing what you're describing in this situation.
 
The guy put himself in this situation. If he was like thousands of other RPG creators who keeps their noses clean, none of this would have happened. Modiphius also could have hired any number of talented creators but took the risk of hiring him, I’m sure knowing full-well the blowback they would have gotten. He doesn’t deserve to have his life ruined but he should come clean instead of stringing people along for years. I don’t even think JMal’s Dwimmermount fiasco got to this level. I don’t have any skin in the game though, so I don’t have any personal grudge against him.
 
The guy put himself in this situation. If he was like thousands of other RPG creators who keeps their noses clean, none of this would have happened. Modiphius also could have hired any number of talented creators but took the risk of hiring him, I’m sure knowing full-well the blowback they would have gotten. He doesn’t deserve to have his life ruined but he should come clean instead of stringing people along for years. I don’t even think JMal’s Dwimmermount fiasco got to this level. I don’t have any skin in the game though, so I don’t have any personal grudge against him.

I have a thousand times more respect for a company that hires someone knowing the blowback, than a company that rushes to throw its creators under the bus.
 
I have a thousand times more respect for a company that hires someone knowing the blowback, than a company that rushes to throw its creators under the bus.

We know that doesn’t happen in real life as you can see on the news everyday. Why should it be any different in the RPG business? Companies usually don’t want to deal with the PR fallout. Is Skarka that good even with his baggage that they want to deal with it?
 
We know that doesn’t happen in real life as you can see on the news everyday. Why should it be any different in the RPG business?

It is unfortunate it happens in the real world. That doesn't make it right. Just because something is, doesn't mean it should be. And not every company throws people under the bus. Sorry but this is just something I can't support on any level. And I think it is particularly ugly when it happens in the RPG industry because it gets so tribal. The online pressure to dislike, fire, remove, and eliminate the unpopular person of the moment is one of the worst developments in recent years.
 
I understand your point of view, but if the guy had completed his KS by now or even come clean with why it’s late, maybe he would get some sympathy. We know despite his assholish behavior elsewhere, that’s the real reason why people are up in arms. They think he’s a thief, which is worse than just being a jackass. He hasn’t been blacklisted because he’s been paid for work that hasn’t even been finished yet plus he’s gotten these gigs. I think the dishonesty gets people fired up.
 
I understand your point of view, but if the guy had completed his KS by now or even come clean with why it’s late, maybe he would get some sympathy. We know despite his assholish behavior elsewhere, that’s the real reason why people are up in arms. They think he’s a thief, which is worse than just being a jackass. He hasn’t been blacklisted because he’s been paid for work that hasn’t even been finished yet plus he’s gotten these gigs. I think the dishonesty gets people fired up.

I am not talking about sympathy. And I am not saying the kickstarter was handled as it should have been. But at a certain point the amount of rage and cruelty being directed at a person starts to lose its justification when it gets directed at everything else they try to do. It isn't the responsibility of publishers to police a kickstarter by not hiring its author. If they want to take a chance on the person, or have some other reason for hiring them, like a sense of loyalty to a contractor they've worked with before, I am fine with that. I think putting pressure on publishers not to hire people, because they've had kickstarter issues or other problems, is a negative thing in the industry. Like I said, if there is a real problem with the kickstarter, there are appropriate channels for folks to go through. But I can't support the obsessive hounding and calls for boycotts of people who've attracted the collective ire of the gaming community. This is one aspect of the hobby in the past few years I hope we can jettison.

Dishonesty certainly can get you fired. But that is a call for Mophidius to make. I think people are tired of collective calls to boycott creators and content.
 
I don't like the self-righteous mob aspect of it at all... but I DO vote with my money and withhold it for a wide variety of reasons... (often) including my impression of a person as an idiot/asshole/Tribe-B partisan. I'm also very inconsistent/hypocritical with my rulings... since I'd still buy a ticket to a Roman Polanski (asshole) movie or purchase a Sinead O'Connor (idiot) song.

You are free to do this. I generally do not allow those kinds of things to influence what I buy for my entertainment. I think the way it is done in the hobby these days (which is very aggressively, collectively and relentlessly), is incredibly off-putting. One of the parts of the hobby I hate the most since I've been involved. And it has been particularly bad in the last few years.
 
I have a thousand times more respect for a company that hires someone knowing the blowback, than a company that rushes to throw its creators under the bus.

I would too, if they'd done so honestly. They tried to hide it, promised to be transparent about it, and then tried to hide it again. If they had bravely done something risky "knowing the blowback", they should have bravely risked suffering the blowback.

Like I said earlier, I would not have a problem with them hiring GMS as a freelancer... and would even applaud them doing so. But I can't abide them lying about it and depriving me of my rightful choice to make informed decisions about my financial support.
 
Those are some strange ethical arguments. So if Bernie Madoff were to be paroled, a financial services company shouldn't think twice about what it means to hire him. And if they hire him and try to hide the fact, there's nothing shady about that and it's people pointing out the shadiness who are in the wrong. Got it.
That's a terrible analogy. Hiring someone with a dubious past to manage your clients money is incredibly negligent. Hiring someone with a dubious past to write a section of a book for you has none of the same issues. Worst case scenario: he flakes on the job and you have to scramble to have someone else fill that section of the book.

I mean I don't see any mob pressure or rush to judgement regarding GMS.
There was a lot of it elsewhere on the Internet, which I assume is the reason his name isn't in the final version of the book. And keep in mind, maybe we don't actually know what happened. It's just Tenkar spinning theories. Maybe they did throw out Tenkar's stuff and this new name is the guy they had do it.

I'll concede it is very possible that the mystery name is really GMS, but there is a rush to judgment to assume that it is.
 
I would too, if they'd done so honestly. They tried to hide it, promised to be transparent about it, and then tried to hide it again. If they had bravely done something risky "knowing the blowback", they should have bravely risked suffering the blowback.

Like I said earlier, I would not have a problem with them hiring GMS as a freelancer... and would even applaud them doing so. But I can't abide them lying about it and depriving me of my rightful choice to make informed decisions about my financial support.

I don't know that it is at all conclusive they lied. There is speculation and some evidence posted by Tenkar. But even if everything Tenkar says is true, there are plenty of other explanations. In one post it seems he is suggesting the said he didn't work on the core book but would be working on another book in a post at RPGnet (I believe it was RPGnet). That isn't a lie that makes a great deal of sense. I mean, if they admit they hired him for another star trek product, why would they deny his involvement in the core book. If it is the case he worked on the core book, it is just as possible the post is either the product of internal miscommunication or sloppy record keeping. Either way, it doesn't particularly trouble me. Companies painting themselves into a corner or contracting themselves while fielding hostile customer posts are not that surprising. Not something I'd get morally outraged about.
 
Well, in this case I do think my feelings about GMS are coloring my feelings about what I think Modiphius has actually done-- I am not morally outraged so much as I am convinced they are doing something that I believe needs to be addressed. I'm not terrifically angry with their conduct, and will publicly call for forgiveness as soon as I believe they're being aboveboard about their involvement with Skarka.

EDIT: I'm not opposed to Skarka getting jobs within the industry. I'm not willing to support him in any position where he controls other people's money-- because he's a liar and a thief-- but he's a good creator and deserves the chance to work.

But if I get to make that choice, I think other people deserve that right to make that choice too. I believe these screenshots are pretty conclusive... and by lying about Skarka's involvement with their product lines, I believe Modiphius is denying their customers that right.
 
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On the one hand...Skarka kind of has a job, one he was paid very well for, and has not delivered on.

On the other hand...as a KS backer, I’m more concerned about the 19.5 hours a day he spends political posting, which may have more to do with his physical and mental health issues than the tragedies that have befallen him. Hate isn’t really good for you.

On the third hand...since all the Far West money was gone years ago, he has to eat.

On the fourth hand...Modiphius did this to themselves.

Finally...everyone (including me) needs to get the fuck over themselves already and stop being a walking poster child for Narcissistic Personality Disorder straight out of the DSM.
No one cares what you think.
You’re not owed anything.
You have no right not to be offended or outraged.
You are not the star of your own movie with the rest of the world being extras. We’re all extras.
You weren’t consulted. Get used to it, you never will be.
 
There was a lot of it elsewhere on the Internet, which I assume is the reason his name isn't in the final version of the book. And keep in mind, maybe we don't actually know what happened. It's just Tenkar spinning theories. Maybe they did throw out Tenkar's stuff and this new name is the guy they had do it.

I'll concede it is very possible that the mystery name is really GMS, but there is a rush to judgment to assume that it is.

Yeah, in regards to that I didnt think Tenkar made anything close to a convincing argument, and honestly this business with Modiphius I think is a just a bad PR blunder that may at worst lose the company a few sales. I'd be surprised if it was over a few dozen. It's just an interesting note in the Far West saga overall, which doesnt, as I see it, bear any resemblance to a moral witchhunt, just the sad story of a man who threw away his reputation. If there's some schadenfreude to that, it's because I didnt have a high opinion of him beforehand.
 
So you'd hire a documented liar and fraudster as long as he hasn't defrauded and lied to you personally? And then you'd deceive your own customers about what you've done? That's an interesting perspective.
Nope, that's not what he said. And it's not what I'd say, given that I agree.
I'd hire someone who dropped the ball on his own KS, if I thought I can hold him accountable, yes.
But I* wouldn't deceive any customers about it, and this doesn't follow from the previous statement.

*Well, not unless he asked to use a pseudonym, which I consider his right as an author.
fixed that for you ;)
We need an option "10 000 likes", maybe usable once per day for each member:wink:.

I would too, if they'd done so honestly. They tried to hide it, promised to be transparent about it, and then tried to hide it again. If they had bravely done something risky "knowing the blowback", they should have bravely risked suffering the blowback.

Like I said earlier, I would not have a problem with them hiring GMS as a freelancer... and would even applaud them doing so. But I can't abide them lying about it and depriving me of my rightful choice to make informed decisions about my financial support.
I would agree, but I'm not sure that I, or anyone else, is owed a list of the people that worked on any given product. Having a pen name is the right of every author, after all.

On the one hand...Skarka kind of has a job, one he was paid very well for, and has not delivered on.

On the other hand...as a KS backer, I’m more concerned about the 19.5 hours a day he spends political posting, which may have more to do with his physical and mental health issues than the tragedies that have befallen him. Hate isn’t really good for you.

On the third hand...since all the Far West money was gone years ago, he has to eat.

On the fourth hand...Modiphius did this to themselves.

Finally...everyone (including me) needs to get the fuck over themselves already and stop being a walking poster child for Narcissistic Personality Disorder straight out of the DSM.
No one cares what you think.
You’re not owed anything.
You have no right not to be offended or outraged.
You are not the star of your own movie with the rest of the world being extras. We’re all extras.
You weren’t consulted. Get used to it, you never will be.
Well. Maybe usable twice:grin:?
 
I would agree, but I'm not sure that I, or anyone else, is owed a list of the people that worked on any given product. Having a pen name is the right of every author, after all.

Maybe such a thing was not intially owed, but it was promised. It's a concept that a company hiring GMS needs to be particularly sensitive to.
 
Maybe such a thing was not intially owed, but it was promised. It's a concept that a company hiring GMS needs to be particularly sensitive to.
OK, if Modiphius has promised anything like that, I could see people being disappointed in them. Though I'm not sure why they would promise any such thing, I can understand that:smile:.

The funniest part is that I'm not even backing their KS, because I have very little interest in Star Trek cannon, and all my SF games could do the settting as described with a couple of tweaks. Now, getting me to run ST instead of another SF game might be trickier:wink:!
 
They didn't promise a complete list of every creator on every work. They promised they'd let customers know about every product GMS was paid to work on.

There's been some dispute here whether the screenshots are conclusive evidence that Modiphius then attempted to conceal Skarka's involvement. I can't fathom why they would make such a decision, but I can't see anything else the evidence could point to.
 
They didn't promise a complete list of every creator on every work. They promised they'd let customers know about every product GMS was paid to work on.

There's been some dispute here whether the screenshots are conclusive evidence that Modiphius then attempted to conceal Skarka's involvement. I can't fathom why they would make such a decision, but I can't see anything else the evidence could point to.

And this is why the court of public opinion is such a terrible venue for settling these kinds of things. I don't know if Tenkar's speculation is accurate or not. Could be. But a lot of this evidence is coming from forum posts and editable wiki pages, which are both highly unreliable and subject to tremendous miscommunication. When it comes to accusations of lying, intent also matters. So if 100% of Tenkar's posts are accurate, there are still alternative, and pretty plausible explanations like the ones I offered. Not saying they are true, just they are plausible reasons. Sometimes companies unintentionally give out inaccurate information or make promises on a forum that other employees in the company are unaware of. If true, this stuff isn't necessarily malicious. But keep in mind, this is a case where the charge is being led by a former detective (at least pretty sure Tenkar is a former detective). Of course he is going to be good at making a persuasive argument. But unlike a court of law, we are not getting an equally competent defense. This is why I ignore all the mob rage and noise on these issues in the gaming community. If people want to take things to court they can. But I am not going to contribute to an extrajudicial public punishment like this (even if the contribution is just posting something nasty or refusing to buy a book I would otherwise be delighted to have). The internet is not a good place for adjudicating these things. The online gaming community, even worse. Nerds with an axe to grind, can get very disproportionate in their reactions to things (and I count myself as a nerd and recognize that impulse in myself).
 
I feel you. I don't have the typical nerdrage, I have a medical condition that causes disproportionate fight-or-flight responses to certain emotional stimuli. I'm well aware of the fact I'm incapable of deciding impartially here, but since I am logically incapable of making no decision, I can only make the most fair decision I can, based on the best understanding of the evidence I can divine.

I find Tenkar's case more credible than you do. I can't construct a counter-argument that I find plausbile enough to consider an alternate explanation.

I'm not trying to punish Modiphius for hiring Skarka. Since I believe they are trying to lie about it, I'm trying to pressure them into stopping. I conisder that both the least I can do, and the most I should. I resent the hell out of people saying we shouldn't care about that, but I think taking a different course of action based on a different understanding of the evidence is not just perfectly understandable, it's morally correct.
 
Valid point but it raises the question of whether comparing a failed KS to Bernie Madoff is morally accurate? Even with the years of transparent equivocating about the KS I'd personally say no.

And hopefully without tripping too far into politics I will say that some of the online outrage seems, shall we say, selective in its targets. I think a lot of it is thinly veiled tribalism being conducted by other means.

To me the clearly abusive behaviour online would be more of concern to me as an employer.

From my observations, it seems most people only care about abusive behavior if they relate to the targets. Otherwise, it seems to be considered admirable.
 
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That's a terrible analogy. Hiring someone with a dubious past to manage your clients money is incredibly negligent. Hiring someone with a dubious past to write a section of a book for you has none of the same issues. Worst case scenario: he flakes on the job and you have to scramble to have someone else fill that section of the book.


There was a lot of it elsewhere on the Internet, which I assume is the reason his name isn't in the final version of the book. And keep in mind, maybe we don't actually know what happened. It's just Tenkar spinning theories. Maybe they did throw out Tenkar's stuff and this new name is the guy they had do it.

I'll concede it is very possible that the mystery name is really GMS, but there is a rush to judgment to assume that it is.
But a major aspect is that he should be working on his own project, the one that was funded ten times the amount he said he required to do the job. Yet he has failed to communicate what has held this project up while being hostile about it. Of course now he has to find other work because of the whole thing going south. But that is what is meant to have happened - that's what kickstarter is for. Also, if other gigs on the side are going to affect delivering on the project you ought think whether you should take them.

He's in an impossible situation now. Perhaps Modiphius thinks that this might help him move forward, but of course it won't beucase the problem with FW was never financial (assumption based on receiving ten x what he asked for) it was personal. I suspect be blew the money visiting hollywood to try and turn the project transmedia. I believe he's even on record saying he went there and did that. Consequently why he's been tight lipped about failing to deliver on the game. He clearly can write rpg's as he's done it successfully many times before. IN fact the far West fiction anthology which came out includes work by a number of popular fantasy authors and hobby figures, himself included.
 
But a major aspect is that he should be working on his own project, the one that was funded ten times the amount he said he required to do the job.

That money is gone. If you believe that there is any non-zero chance that he is ever going to finish Far West, he's gonna need a roof over his head and full belly to do that, without speaking of any production costs he didn't cover. If you're a Far West backer, or just a hopeful fan, and you ever want to see that book in your hot little hands-- you better hope he gets as much freelance work as he wants.

He needs to be working on other shit to be able to continue work on Far West, so... that's a really bad reason for people to complain about him doing freelance work.
 
That money is gone. If you believe that there is any non-zero chance that he is ever going to finish Far West, he's gonna need a roof over his head and full belly to do that, without speaking of any production costs he didn't cover. If you're a Far West backer, or just a hopeful fan, and you ever want to see that book in your hot little hands-- you better hope he gets as much freelance work as he wants.

He needs to be working on other shit to be able to continue work on Far West, so... that's a really bad reason for people to complain about him doing freelance work.

His own company is still publishing stuff as well.
 
I wanted to purchase the new Star Tre rpg. Now I'm not so sure. I sometimes think companies and individuals purposefully forget what being transparent means. It means to be honest and upfront when it pertains to both the good and bad. Not only the good. If Modieus had been honest I may not have liked them hiring GMS yet they are not the first to hire a dishonest, disingenuous jerk of a rpg developer. To hide it, be upfront about it, then try to hide it again. Not impressed.
 
I wanted to purchase the new Star Tre rpg. Now I'm not so sure. I sometimes think companies and individuals purposefully forget what being transparent means. It means to be honest and upfront when it pertains to both the good and bad. Not only the good. If Modieus had been honest I may not have liked them hiring GMS yet they are not the first to hire a dishonest, disingenuous jerk of a rpg developer. To hide it, be upfront about it, then try to hide it again. Not impressed.
The game is really oriented toward playing a starfleet game. So if you wanted to do something that wasn't being a member of one of the major powers (the appendix gives rules for the alien equivalents), such as a mercenary/special ops/privateer crew, you'd have to houserule. Probably not difficult, but the game only provides a few ship stats (the major starfleet vessels plus one or two each from the alien races - cruiser, warbird, etc). No Tholians (instant fail IMO). It's ok, I don't really think the 2d20 works for me; too many bennie pools. It seems ok though. The art ranges from decent to average, but the supplement model is tedious based on the assumed character classes. FFG's Star Wars games have the same problem.

If that's your jam, you'll probably like it. I have no idea what parts GMS worked on.
 
This thread is, inevitably, line dancing on politics. Be careful about jumping over that line, I just took down one post.
 
Modiphius should have been upfront and honest. They seem to have chosen deception. That's not a good look.

I'm sure they felt they were helping GMS out. Maybe they have, only they will know. But in reality they could have hired anyone. They could have for instance given that gig to someone trying to break into the biz. After all it's not as if GMS doesn't have projects of his own...

They made a choice, lied about it, and have to accept the consequences.

Of course they are popular so none of this will make a scrap of difference.
 
You know what. At least the dude got credited. I lost track of the number of times ive had to go back to publishers and ask why my name wasnt in the credits.
 
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