Fighting Fantasy RPGs

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Sparking off another thread, this one is about the Fighting Fantasy RPGs. I come from a place of much love for these games, but I'm fully prepared to admit it's heavily nostalgia-tinted and we're all just shooting the breeze here, so tell me why you hate them if you want.

But I love 'em.

It started as just a generalisation of the basic system from the gamebooks for multiplayer play - the 0e if you will - then led to Dungeoneer, the "Advanced" Fighting Fantasy system (still rules light and aimed at a younger audience) in the late 80s. Arion Games re-released it in the 2010s as effectively a 2e and are still going strong and doing a great job..

Let's start with the 1984 book that was essentially just the system from the first gamebooks: SKILL, STAMINA, LUCK, Potions of each, and Provisions:

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By the British Steve Jackson not the American one.

It came with its own campaign:

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This added crazy mechanical complexity like distinguishing different weapons (as if anyone can be bothered with that kind of detail, right?!), critical hits, and a magic system with 12 spells, in about 15 pages or something, making a kind of 0.5 or 0.9e.

It's very much a railroad so the cool kids won't like it, but I don't care. The villain for once is a rogue agent of Neutrality who wants to overthrow the balance between Order and Chaos. All aboard the Reaver's sky-galleon the Twice Shy for traps and puzzles galore, and try not to get eaten by the mouse.

The setting of the Reaver campaign and the default for the game is Titan, the world of most of the Fighting Fantasy solo gamebooks. Titan also had its own book:

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I mean, would you look at that cover? Sheer awesome.

It's a pretty generic fantasy world, although leaning towards swords & sorcery, with a sarcastic sense of humour to it. Despite being generic, I find it is still incredibly flavoursome and evocative - maybe because it could draw on the creativity that had gone into the gamebooks (the good ones anyway). The S&S flavour comes through in Port Blacksand, ruled by the mysterious ex-pirate Lord Azzur, a tyrant but a fairly whimsical one.

This is turning into a long post but I can't resist sharing the cover of the monsters book, Out of the Pit:

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(Same artist as the Titan book, Chris Achilleos, sadly no longer with us.)

Gameplay was dead straightforward. SKILL and LUCK are generated as 1D6+6, STAMINA as 2D6+12. In combat, hero and monster each throw 2D6 and add to SKILL for Attack Strength, loser subtracts STAMINA; the Heroes can Test their Luck to add extra damage or block some incoming damage. Riddling Reaver added varying weapon damages. I don't think the game every got round to varying armour types. I think if you lost your armour, you had to knock off a point of SKILL.

The mechanics were essentially 2D6 roll under SKILL for things you actively do, or LUCK as a kind of saving throw. But every time you Test Your Luck, you lose a point of LUCK, so it's obviously a diminishing resource.

There was no advancement system in the rules as written although I think one appeared in Warlock magazine. Clearly it's pretty simplistic and might struggle to support a long campaign unless everyone is invested in exploring the world of Titan. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), I never got to run a long FF campaign.
 
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I had the original Fighting Fantasy (weretiger) book but I didn't even know the rest of these existed until about a year ago.

We used the FF book to run games ...wait for it...on a customised monopoly board. The board would give us places and wandering monsters and we would litter the board with enemies.
 
I had everything apart from the Riddling Reaver, which I didn't know about until this post. The first game I ever ran was a semi-regular game at our local library, mashing together AD&D with our Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and all the d6s we could steal out of family board games. When the 1984 FF RPG game came out, our local librarian ordered in a copy for me. Formative stuff man, absolutely bonzer.
 
I loved the original FF run. The adventures were evocative and the two large format setting and monster books were gorgeous (much better than the reduced sized version later released). The 4 books still hold a pride of place on my "childhood in the 80s" shelf.

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Despite considerable fondness for it, I found Dungeoneer to be the lowest point in the line as the rules changes were not great and it wasn't until Arion's 2e that they were cleaned up enough to be a robust RPG system.
 
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I think putting out an FF RPG is harder than it looks at first. The system works fine for a gamebook because it's pretty fast and the action keeps on moving, but in a multiplayer game there just isn't quite enough there; working out what to add without smothering it is a tough job.
Despite considerable fondness for it, I found Dungeoneer to be the lowest point in the line as the rules changes were not great and it wasn't until Arion's 2e that they were cleaned up enough to be a robust RPG system.
2e doesn't change much, but the changes it makes - talents, revised character gen - just smooths everything out enough. I genuinely think it's one of the best light fantasy RPG's out there.

I ran the Dungeoneer campaign (Dungeoneer / Blacksand! / Allansia) a few years back, and we all had a very good time. Of the four chapters, the first is a short training mission, the second chapter is a dungeon crawl, the third is a more open investigation scenario, and the fourth is a road trip followed by a big set-piece battle. Each chapter uses the new rules from that rulebook more than is probably strictly necessary, and there are some dud bits in the last chapter (The swamp section livens up the tedious swamp crawling with just a touch of racism), but it ends very strong and feels sufficiently epic.
 
2e doesn't change much, but the changes it makes - talents, revised character gen - just smooths everything out enough. I genuinely think it's one of the best light fantasy RPG's out there.
It doesn't look like it changes much but the changes it makes do have a significant impact in making the system in Dungeoneer robust, which is why it is so elegant. In particular, it deals with the Skill problem and also balances various different builds and magic.
 
From what I remember of the old green-spined gamebooks, there was pretty poor balance between the stats.

SKILL was everything. STAMINA was nice to have but if you had high SKILL it didn't matter because nothing could hurt you. And LUCK, well, you'd never use it except when the book itself made you.

I'm not super familiar with the actual tabletop system. Did they at least address this imbalance?
 
I have recently been checking out this system and its derivatives, since it came to my attention that my current project has much in common with it (though it started out as a riff on Worlds of Wonder many years ago). There are really some very fine bones on Fighting Fantasy.
 
From what I remember of the old green-spined gamebooks, there was pretty poor balance between the stats.

SKILL was everything. STAMINA was nice to have but if you had high SKILL it didn't matter because nothing could hurt you. And LUCK, well, you'd never use it except when the book itself made you.

I'm not super familiar with the actual tabletop system. Did they at least address this imbalance?
At a glance yes, but if you look at it further its not really an issue.

Skill is effectively a PC's level and determines their overall base capability. It shouldn't be seen as needing to be balanced against Stamina or Luck as these are resource points like HP and drama points.

To balance out the central importance of Skill, you simply need to makes sure that all PCs are treated equally and broaden out the concept as follows:

1. Every PC starts with the same Skill. They can increase Skill a little but its expensive especially compared to Magic.

2. You then add a series of skills on top of Skill which allow PCs to specialise (these are called special skills). Its really important not to tie these special skill points to the Skill stat as otherwise it just creates a further gap in power level. You also don't want a high starting Skill stat that overshadows these special skills.

In Dungeoneer, Skill was randomly determined between 7-12 as in the gamebooks. Skill also determined how many points you got to add to special skills. This was completely borked and often saw a PC start with Skill 12 and have 12 points to spend on special skills already maxed out, and some PC with Skill 7 and less points in special skills to make up for it.

In AFF2e, every PC starts with a base Skill 4. You get 8 points to spend on increasing Skill, Stamina (+2 per point), Luck, and Magic. Skill can only be increased by 3 to a maximum of 7. It assumes that most PCs will do this unless they want to use Magic. In addition, all PCs gets 3 special skills at 2 and 6 special skills at 1. The result is that you get a variety of PC builds that work. Also, magic and non-magic PCs are balanced against each other.
 
I ran FF (not AFF, the more advanced game which included Dungeoneer, Blacksand, and Allansia I believe, but the one with the tiger dude cover and the Riddling Reave). I swapped out the magic system for the one in the FF Sorcery gamebooks and made a couple of changes that made it pretty decent. I split Skill into Skill and Wits (covering all things phyisical and mental, respectively) and made everyone choose a role or profession, and gave them an advantage die when taking any action related to that profession (3d6 keep the 2 best)
 
FF was, at least partially, my gateway to roleplaying. It gets mixed up a little with Milton Bradley's Heroquest, Lone Wolf and the Avenger books (ninjas rule!), but I do believe it was first by a slight margin.

We had all the FF and AFF books except the Ridling Reaver and the second onwards Sorcery books (for some reason these didn't grab us).

Blacksand was a triumph and my favourite fantasy city ever. Out of the Pit had less utility than I'd have liked as it was based on FF if I recall so the stats lacked a little depth.

I didn't really like the sample adventures, the dwarf with the nuts (edible not naked from the waist down!) I seem to recall, which put me off. Also by this time we had started HQ so it suffered there too.

This is all sadly from memory now, I should pick up some AFF 2e but then it's just another game on the list...

It was these books that got me to pick up GURPS (yes, I confused the Steve Jackson's!), which eventually led to Fudge and finding my favourite games, and also got me in gaming shops to find WFRP (although GW and WD probably also played into that) and others.
 
As a teen the FF books were my gateway drug when no players were available. As anyone read Stellar Adventures (FF in space basically)? Is it any good? I'm a sucker for Sci Fi and simple games but I as I already own and run Traveller, I fear it might be a useless purchase... (well, since when is that a problem? you may ask, and you would be right :tongue:).
 
As a teen the FF books were my gateway drug when no players were available. As anyone read Stellar Adventures (FF in space basically)? Is it any good? I'm a sucker for Sci Fi and simple games but I as I already own and run Traveller, I fear it might be a useless purchase... (well, since when is that a problem? you may ask, and you would be right :tongue:).
That one pretty much comes down to whether you like the AFF system because it really is just scifi Fighting Fantasy. It's good, although I'd say it's more of a toolkit; no real setting etc.
 
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Fighting Fantasy was my original love!!!

I had ten of the original greenspine paperback Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, and always had an additional random five books or so that we used to trade around with my friends. This was over a two year period, my last year at primary school and my first year at high school. Absolutely love the eccentric b&w artwork, and it was my gateway into roleplaying.

I was into these solo gamebooks before I knew what D&D was. I knew there was a cool game that the kids played in the ET film, but that was it. I didn't become aware of D&D until I went to high school, and knew I had to somehow share my FF solo experiences with others, so D&D B/X looked like the next step.
However once I realised that there was a book for Fighting Fantasy multiplay (weretiger cover), then I grabbed that and it was my first foray into being a GM at 13 years old. We played it for a while, but eventually I had to hack it so much to copy stuff that was happening in D&D, so I decided to move onto a full rpg.

I had my eye on Basic D&D Red Box (BECMI) by the time I was 14 years old, but my cousin ended up convincing me to get RQ2 instead. That decision led me down a different/parallel gaming path to most people at that time with RQ2, MERP, RQ3, and RM, with my eye to buy WFRP 1E (which only happened much later).

However I never stopped loving FF, although I never upgraded to Dungeoneer when it was published (due to my other games).

A few years ago I decided to get the Arion Games updated version of AFF to run for my own kids' first rpgs. It's great, but I felt it needed just a bit more meat on the bone, but not much. I homebrewed AFF and added a new stat called KNOWLEDGE. That way it ran with SKILL, KNOWLEDGE, LUCK, STAMINA, and it was fine for our purposes. We had to have our own character sheets, but that was not a problem with excel and some AFF logos, they came out really great.

I would of been happy to just keep running my boys' rpg sessions with my amended version of AFF, but the marketing presence of WotC got to my kids. When D&D 5E books were showing up in EB Console Gaming Stores, it was just too much. I eventually updated them to D&D 5E via the Starter Set.
The love affair with WotC is over now, they are back to goofing off and rolling dice again. Given this, I am thinking of returning them to AFF, or perhaps transitioning them to something like Black Hack/BSH or the upcoming Shadowdark, as the rule bloat is kept to a minimum.

I still ended up buying most of the Arion Games AFF because I love the vibe so much!
I love how they used all the original artwork, it really connected Arion Games AFF to the earlier gamebooks world.

Sadly the only original gamebook left in my collection is the first one, The Warlock of Firetop Mountain.

My son has a set of the first ten books and loves them, as do I, but they don't have the original covers which really adds to the nostalgia for me.
If I didn't collect other things, I would have gone back and collected the original gamebooks by now, but I don't really want to fill my bookcase unless they are my actual original books from all those years ago.

Wow, I remember reading/playing a few of those early books so much.
I remember the titles clearly by their original cover art: Warlock of Firetop Mountain, Forest of Doom, City of Thieves, Citadel of Chaos, Island of the Lizard Island, Deathtrap Dungeon, and Caverns of the Snow Witch, all set in the Wolrd of Titan.
I had a few non-Titan Scifi titles as well, Starship Traveller, Rebel Planet, Space Assasin, and Freeway Fighter.

Ah, such great memories of Fighting Fantasy gamebooks.
That nostaligia people get looking at D&D covers of B/X and BECMI, well I get that with Fighting Fantasy. Also RQ2 and MERP covers, as well as old White Dwarf mag covers, but definately Fighting Fantasy.

I'll be forever grateful to Steve Jackson & Peter Livingstone :smile:

1681385682399.pngWow
 
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Glad to come back and see others have done the heavy lifting of dissecting the AFF system and how Arion fixed it!

One of the best parts with FF is a referee has got a practically inexhaustible source of adventure ideas from the gamebooks, assuming the players haven't read them.

Arion have re-done a few of the solo gamebooks as adventures, including the Sorcery! campaign.

Every so often I think about separating SKILL out into different stats but then it stops feeling like FF pretty quickly.

Something called the Troika system came out recently which is apparently fairly closely related to FF, but I haven't read it yet.

...By the way, House of Hell is frickin' dark. For ex. if I remember right, there was a section where a nurse was getting sacrificed by the cultists, and you couldn't do anything to help - you just have to stand and watch. Eek.
 
Glad to come back and see others have done the heavy lifting of dissecting the AFF system and how Arion fixed it!

They have released a really good range of books. The deluxe version hardback of Advanced Fighting Fantasy and then Blacksand are my two non-adventure favourites.

One of the best parts with FF is a referee has got a practically inexhaustible source of adventure ideas from the gamebooks, assuming the players haven't read them.

That's a big assumption but less risky for those later in the series that people haven't read as much.

Arion have re-done a few of the solo gamebooks as adventures, including the Sorcery! campaign.

They are pretty poor overall in my experience. But... the latest one, Citadel of Chaos, is much better and has been re-written from the gamebook to bring it more in line with an RPG adventure. I'd highly recommend it.

Every so often I think about separating SKILL out into different stats but then it stops feeling like FF pretty quickly.

I did, had to, as the simplicity was just too much for an RPG, for me. I created a KNOWLEDGE attribute so such skills could sit under it and the SKILL attribute was more to do with physical prowess (combat and such). Its worked well for me in my games I've been running.

...By the way, House of Hell is frickin' dark. For ex. if I remember right, there was a section where a nurse was getting sacrificed by the cultists, and you couldn't do anything to help - you just have to stand and watch. Eek.

I loved that scene as, if you rush to save her, you met a grisly end as well. One of the pictures from the first editions was eventually removed:

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They are pretty poor overall in my experience. But... the latest one, Citadel of Chaos, is much better and has been re-written from the gamebook to bring it more in line with an RPG adventure. I'd highly recommend it.
I thought Warlock of Firetop Mountain was ok in a very basic dungeoncrawl kind of way. But yeah, they quickly run into the problem that while related gamebooks and RPGs aren't the same thing and what makes a good gamebook doesn't always translate. In particular, the way the gamebooks are written with multiple plays assumed. Sorcery especially suffers from this, along with the fact it assumes players will follow the same linear path as the gamebook. (I don't think it has a real answer for the obvious "why don't we just walk round Khare rather than walking into somewhere called "The Cityport of Traps" issue).

For people looking to get into AFF, here's how I'd list the books in order of priority for purchase.

Advanced Fighting Fantasy Deluxe. Has the corebook, Out of the Pit (the monster book) and Titan (the worldbook) all in one volume. Easily enough to get you underway with a AFF campaign.

Combat Companion. Close to being essential. Adds depth to combat without much extra complexity.

AFF Hero's Companion. Really good. New skills, magic and character options. Even more useful in a wilderness campaign.

Blacksand. An alternative setting for your campaign. Port Blacksand is great, but its utility obviously depends on whether you want a city campaign.

Stellar Adventures. If you want a sci fi version of AFF this is excellent, if not it's no use to you. It's very versatile and will handle most settings from space opera to post-apocy, although you'need to do the setting yourself.

Beyond the Pit. More monsters. Fine but not especially exciting.

Rough Guide to the Pit. I feel bad putting this one so low, as it's very well done. But it mostly focuses on the infernal regions. It's a rare group of high powered adventurers that are likely to end up there. Of course, if you're planning on doing a campaign with the following book it's almost vital.

Demons of Doom. It's great, but it's for a very niche campaign that may not appeal. (You do in fact play Demons doing evil for the lulz).

Travels in Arion. Another city campaign book. Nice starting point, but doesn't have the flavour of Blacksand for me.

The Titan Herbal. Another remarkably niche sourcebook that tries to do the Maelstrom Herbal thing for AFF. The plant monsters give you options for some novel wilderness encounters. Fun, if unnecessary.

Encylopedia Arcana Vol 1 - Treasures. Does what it says on the tin. Nothing wrong with it, but I don't really feel a need for it. Some of the stuff like food and drink in Titan is flavourful at least.

Creatures of Mishna. Another campaign book. I can take it or leave it.

Return to the Pit. Guys, that's enough monsters.

Stellar Adventures Weapons and Armour Catalogue/Stellar Adventures Spaceship Catalogue. Even if you're running Stellar Adventures I don't really see the use of these. Not enough detail to be a campaign setting, too much to be generic.

Sorcery Spellbook. A few pages of extra rules, but it's mostly just a reference book with the Sorcery Spells. Pointless.



I've left out the Warlock Returns (now on issue 8!). As fan content, its quality varies but is generally pretty decent.
 
Something called the Troika system came out recently which is apparently fairly closely related to FF, but I haven't read it yet.
Troika! is a fun system, heavily leaning on the weird and zany side of the genre. There are 66 different backgrounds like 'Ardent Giant of Corda', 'Vengeful Child', and 'Journeyman of the Guild of Sharp Corners'. Oh, and things like 'Dwarf'.

It has the problem of base skill 1d3+3, so there's a high level of variability between starting characters. But there are advanced skills layered on top of this, like Awareness, Disguise, Golden Barge Pilot, etc. Advanced skills can be added as needed, as the book says you can't ever have too many because players will never have to dig through the whole list - advanced skills are part of the character's background, and searching out a new skill to learn is a rare occurrence.

The book as a physical artefact is lovely, too, and they're all on sale at the moment. The rulebook does a cunning thing where the different sections have different, very pale colour paper, making it very quick to look up stuff.
 
Troika! is neat and a lot of fun. I've been toying with making Backgrounds for the old Revolt on Antares minigame.

Edit: been eyeing the AFF Deluxe hardback tome from dtrpg as well...
 
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Someone on TBP has posted their own supers hack for AFF.

 
I have played literally dozens of those gamebooks, and recently acquired the Arion game...I think from a Bundle of Holding:grin:!
I should really take it out for a spin. And hey, I might get some new players/converts from the gamebook forum as well:shade:!
 
Someone on TBP has posted their own supers hack for AFF.

I was coming here this morning to see if someone had posted that. It's a really nice hack (and not just because it's similarly to how I hacked superpowers onto other systems)
 
Nice! I remember enjoying "Appointment with F.E.A.R.".

But, seems to need a TBP login to access the pdf?
 
Blacksand was a triumph and my favourite fantasy city ever.
Yes! It's become my measuring stick for other games' fantasy cities.

I particularly liked that it was built on the ruins of an ancient capital, providing convenient dungeon-delving (a bit like Tekumel). The old Dungeoneer campaign from the 80s books dealt with an expedition down there.
 
I loved the original FF run. The adventures were evocative and the two large format setting and monster books were gorgeous (much better than the reduced sized version later released). The 4 books still hold a pride of place on my "childhood in the 80s" shelf.

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Are those Dragon Warriors books in the middle?
 
I ran a few of the Myriador and Arion campaigns using different sets of rules, and I ran the Sorcery! campaign using AFF rules; the module needed a lot of work, and I found the rules too simplistic for my taste.

I ran a sequel to the Sorcery! campaign using Forbidden Lands rules, where the players played evil characters who were sent to murder the heroes from the first campaign. We may yet play another campaign as a sequel to that.

I am waiting for the price of Arion Games' Citadel of Chaos to drop before I get it. I think my players will enjoy it as a short campaign.
 
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My current D&D campaign is partly a tribute to Fighting Fantasy's Scorpion Swamp, that's how much love and loyalty I have to the line that was largely responsible for starting me on the RPG path.

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My current D&D campaign is partly a tribute to Fighting Fantasy's Scorpion Swamp, that's how much love and loyalty I have to the line that was largely responsible for starting me on the RPG path.

That book was so confusing. Not the content. The fact that UK Steve Jackson is a different person than US Steve Jackson and UK Steve Jackson is the one who writes gamebooks but US Steve Jackson wrote Scorpion Swamp.
 
That book was so confusing. Not the content. The fact that UK Steve Jackson is a different person than US Steve Jackson and UK Steve Jackson is the one who writes gamebooks but US Steve Jackson wrote Scorpion Swamp.

Scorpion Swamp catches a lot more flack than I think it deserves. It hasn't been reprinted in a long time either, while the books around it in the sequence have. I wonder if US Steve Jackson knows there are people out there who appreciated his effort. At least his Demons of the Deep got more praise.
 
Scorpion Swamp catches a lot more flack than I think it deserves. It hasn't been reprinted in a long time either, while the books around it in the sequence have. I wonder if US Steve Jackson knows there are people out there who appreciated his effort. At least his Demons of the Deep got more praise.
It's actually one of my favourites. Variable possible quests. And being able to return to previous places was a really good innovation.
 
It's actually one of my favourites. Variable possible quests. And being able to return to previous places was a really good innovation.

Creating a pointcrawl in book format was very impressive, I always thought. You even get a choice of patrons, including an Evil one! It's the closest to a sandbox I've ever seen in FF.
 
Creating a pointcrawl in book format was very impressive, I always thought. You even get a choice of patrons, including an Evil one! It's the closest to a sandbox I've ever seen in FF.
Have you come across the Fabled Lands series? They're pretty much the benchmark for sandbox gamebooks. More recently the Steam Highwayman series is in the same area and very good.
 
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