Firearms and Firearm Terminology for the Uninitiated (WARNING: Helluva Long)

[Dammit Victor]

Inspired by the brief digression from the topic in On the Constant Overestimation of Animals, I think I should like to give a brief primer in the mechanics of firearms for people who know less on this subject than I do. I will note that I'm more of a Bard than a Gunslinger or Artificer, so I don't know half this shit half as well as I think I do, and if you're actually an expert and you're dead certain that I've got something wrong and you know better-- please, by all means, feel free to correct me.

I don't know primitive firearms real good, because despite my reputation, I don't actually like guns very much. They're a practical weapon that mostly satisfies my religious obligation to always be prepared to defend myself and others, so I mostly know about what guns I actually use and I only really spend enough time handling guns to keep mine in working order and to stay proficient enough, again, to satisfy the terms of my religious beliefs.

A firearm works by taking a long metal tube (barrel), putting a very small explosive charge of gunpowder at one end, and putting a small metal ball (bullet, literally ball-ette, hence ballistics) on top of it to create an enclosed space. There's a staggering variety of firing mechanisms, but the basic principle is that the wielder points the barrel at the target and sets the explosive charge off which creates a rapid expansion of heated gas that propels the bullet down the barrel.

I don't know the etymology of all the -lock firearms, but a matchlock has a hole in the chamber (the place the explosion happens) that you fire by sticking a lit length of cannon fuse (in your other hand) into. A wheellock has a kind of wheel thing that generates sparks in the chamber when you spin it. A flintlock is really the first firearm most people are going to recognize, because it has a piece of flint attached to a spring that you fire by pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure that most of these weapons were muzzleloaders, meaning... sigh... you loaded them through the muzzle.

I don't remember the exact details, but some primitive firearms could be charged (have powder added) by pouring it into a pan that funneled it into the chamber for you. Made things quicker, but could also be unpleasant (and useless) if something set that powder off while it was still in the pan. It would make a bright, loud flash. In the pan. And now you know.

A pistol is generally a gun you fire in one hand, a musket is a longer, more accurate, two-handed gun; the invention of rifling a barrel by tooling grooves into it that make the bullet spin when fired made rifled muskets more accurate. Most modern firearms have rifled barrels, except most shotguns; more on that later.

After the invention of rifling, the next big change was the invention of the cartridge: the bullet and gunpowder and a secondary explosive called the primer are encased in a (usually) brass casing. Gunpowder is really only set off by heat, and primer is only set off by concussion, so it's safer. If the primer is in the center of the cartridge, it's a centerfire cartridge, and it's set around the rim, it's a rimfire cartridge; they're designed for weapons with different firing mechanisms. Firearms that fire cartridges or shells (later) are called breachloaders because you can load them, manually, by placing a cartridge in the breach where the action meets the barrel. (Most modern guns are self-loading.) The breach and the cartridge are airtight, or mostly so, allowing greater muzzle velocity (from increased gas pressure) and reducing the chances of misfire and painful burns. Most such weapons can absolutely be fired underwater or in a vacuum, once; I don't have any idea whether or not an AK-47 can "empty the clip" underwater, like in Lethal Weapon 4. It also drastically reduced loading times.

The invention of the cartridge changed the entire concept of the action. Instead of setting off the gunpowder with some kind of fire, you set off the primer with a brisk physical impact. This is provided a spring mechanism, where the weapon is cocked (the hammer is pulled back to fire) and when the trigger is pulled, it snaps down and either impacts rim of the casing, or it punches the firing pin through the center. You can remove or deface the firing pin, making the gun harmless until someone figures out what's wrong and replaces it. Some guns have a decocking lever to lower the trigger slowly, while others require you to put your other hand on the hammer, pull the trigger, and lower the hammer slowly yourself. The retaining pin is the piece that holds the hammer in place until you pull the trigger.

Modern firearms will not fire without pulling the trigger, unless there's a hell of a lot more force than Earth's gravity or you threw it in a campfire.

A safety is basically any mechanism to prevent the weapon from being fired unintentionally. I think most of them work by just physically preventing the trigger from being pulled, but I've seen some where the safety disengages the trigger from the retaining pin, or unaligns the firing pin from the chamber. Many modern handguns, following Glock's innovation (I believe) have a safety where the trigger mechanism can't be activated unless someone is holding the weapon firmly by the grip. Some civilian gun manufacturers have moved away from these kinds of safeties... it's a controversial idea, but there are people very passionate about it on both sides.

A revolver is a weapon that allows the user to fire more than one shot before reloading by, wait for it... revolving the cylinder to line up the shot. These were invented before the cartridge, but aside from some personal defense weapons in the early 19th century, muzzle-loading revolvers never really caught on. Cartridge revolvers where the most popular pistols for civilian, police, and military use for over a century.

Which brings us to the reason we're all here: the invention of the cartridge firearm very quickly lead to the development of repeating firearms which could be loaded with multiple shots in advance and fired, one at a time, without having to reload in-between. Every repeating firearm by necessity and by definition has a magazine that is the part of the gun that holds the ammunition. In most early repeating rifles and shotguns, the internal magazine is the long tube that runs underneath the barrel. In practically every civilian handgun, the external magazine is a removable metal box with little springs in it that everyone calls a "clip"; a clip is literally just a little metal clip that holds a bunch of cartridges together that allows you to shove them into the internal magazine in a hurry. A belt-fed weapon takes the clip to its natural conclusion, and clips the clips together so someone else can reload the weapon for you while you keep firing. (Not indefinitely. Machine gun barrels get red-hot, even with watercooling systems, and will fucking melt if you're not careful.)

It really doesn't matter. Even if you're trying to buy them in a store, you're going to order the ones that go with the specific gun you have and you can't mistake one for the other at that point. There's correct and incorrect usage... but mostly this is a political shibboleth.

I don't know the difference between a cartridge and a shell, except that cartridges are (usually) brass and have a bullet and shells, designed for shotguns, are mostly made of paper or plastic and are designed to carry all sorts of wonderful bullshit in them. The standard hunting and anti-personnel shells are shot (multiple balls; 12 gauge buckshot is typically the equivalent of three 9mm bullets) which is divided into buckshot for shooting biggish animals and birdshot (usually steel) for shooting birds. Slugs are just bigass bullets. Military and law enforcement use shotguns with breaching rounds for rapid entry, by distintegrating the doorframe around a lock, or... there's a lot of names for them, but they're basically heavy beanbags that probably won't kill you that they use on people they probably don't want dead. "Nonlethal" is deprecated. Weapons designed to take people alive are "less lethal" to encourage people who have them hesitate before reaching for them. Flechette rounds are packed with little darts (it's French for "little arrow") and dragon's breath rounds (seriously) spit out like... a four foot gout of flame that makes your shotgun kinda unreliable until you clean it thoroughly. I don't know of any practical use for either of them. A blank is a cartridge or a shell with no payload; mostly harmless, but RIP Brandon Lee.

We use the term "negligent discharge" instead of "accident" because safe firearms handling is based a handful of simple rules. An unintentional discharge requires a person to have broken most of them and an ND resulting in injury or death literally requires the "shooter" to have broken all of them.

• All guns are loaded at all times unless the breach is open.
• Don't point your gun at anything you're not trying to shoot.
• Do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. (This is called trigger discipline, and is often phrased as "keep your booger hook off the bang button".)

It might not have been intentional, but every single negligent discharge is the result of a series of bad decisions that made it possible.

Now, actions, this is important: the action of a weapon is the actual method by which the weapon is loaded, cocked, and fired. The most basic terms you need to know are:

• Single-shot: The weapon fires once (or twice, if "double-barreled") and then needs to be reloaded. These weapons are usually either antiques, hunting weapons, or are (rarely) designed for extremely long-range precision shooting.
• Repeating: The weapon fires once, and then the user has to manually cycle a mechanism that loads another round and prepares the weapon to fire.
  • Lever-action: There's a handloop attached to a lever that you cock forward and reset to cycle the weapon. Like the one in Terminator 2 or pretty much every Western. Modern ammunition for these rifles has adorable, brightly-colored, little rubber tips to prevent them from misfiring.
  • Pump-action: Almost every shotgun you see on TV. Fire the weapon, pump the action, ready to go. Pumping a shotgun that's already armed ejects your unused shell like you'd fired it... which looks and sounds as ridiculous as you think.
• Single-action: This is only for revolvers. (I'm getting there.) A single-action revolver is one where pulling the trigger fires the weapon, and manually cocking the hammer rotates the next shot into place. Mostly only seen in Westerns and Western period reenactments nowadays.
• Double-action: A revolver where pulling the trigger rotates the next shot into place and then fires it.

And the big ones:

• Semi-automatic: A weapon that, when fired, uses the physical force of the waste gases to cycle the action for you, allowing you to fire the weapon as fast as you can pull the trigger. This is the vast majority of non-hunting civilian and/or law enforcement weapons on the planet.
• Automatic or Fully Automatic: Like the semi-automatic weapon, except that it lacks the mechanism that keeps the weapon from firing until you release and re-squeeze the trigger. This means it keeps firing until you let go.
• Burst-fire: The weapon fires three times when you pull the trigger. Fucking witchcraft.
• Selective-fire: The weapon has a little switch on the side, in front of the trigger guard, that allows you to change between Semi and Burst, or Semi, Burst, and Auto.

With cartridges and industrial manufacturing, the sizes of firearm projectiles were standardized. For bullets, caliber is just the diameter of the bullet at its widest point, measured in percentages of an inch (.22, .38, .45) or in millimeters. For shotguns, gauge is the interior diameter of the barrel measured by how many balls of lead that size it takes to make a pound; thus a 12 gauge shotgun is bigger than a 20 gauge shotgun. Sometimes different, incompatible size of ammunition have the same caliber and are differentiated by length: 9x19mm versus 9x17mm. Sometimes, a weapon is designed to be able to fire more than one kind. Some people load their own ammunition at home, which allows variances in bullet weight (measured in grains) and the amount of gunpowder included in the cartridge.

Generally, pistol calibers range from .22 to the .50 Action Express, infamous in the gun community for being popularized by The Matrix and a whole bunch of First Person Shooters-- the manufacturers of the Desert Eagle, Israeli Military Industries, paid a lot of game developers for product placement-- and thus making it impossible to talk about seriously. It's a banning offense on a lot of the forums to even bring it up. Generally anything between the .38 and the .45 is normal for civilian self-defense purposes, while the .357 Magnum, .44 Magum and anything bigger than a .45 are typically either used for hunting or penetrating body armor.

Rifle calibers also start more or less from .22 Long Rifle to (.223) 5.56mm NATO up to .308 and .30-06 and .50 Browning Machine Gun. Bigger rifle cartridges exist, but the only two I can name are the .600 Nitro Express and the .700 Nitro Express (for hunting elephants). Anything bigger than .70 caliber isn't legally classified, under international law, as "small arms". I'll get into rifle calibers a bit below. The American M-16 fires 5.56mm. NATO, while the AK-47 fires 7.62mm

So a pistol or a handgun is just a one-handed firearm, basically. Handgun more often is used to describe semi-automatic pistols, to differentiate them from revolvers. A machine pistol is a fully-automatic pistol; commercially manufactured machine pistols are pretty rare because they're illegal for civilian use (everywhere) and there really isn't a reasonable governmental application for them.

A longarm describes any full-sized, two handed weapon, but is mostly only used to describe old-timey rifles and shotguns. A rifle is basically... a two-handed weapon with a rifled barrel that shoots "rifle ammunition" which is (mostly) longer and heavier than "handgun ammunition", but narrower so it has a lower caliber. I pretty much can't define what a shotgun is, except to say "it shoots shotgun ammunition"; they're mostly two-handed except for some .410s designed for personal defense, they're mostly not rifled except when they are, etc. A carbine is a rifle that fires pistol ammo, and a submachine gun is basically a full-auto carbine. A machine gun is a fully-automatic weapon that fires belt-fed large-caliber rifle-ammunition from a weapon emplacement, either as part of fortifications or as part of a vehicle.

Longarms... break down a lot more into their intended use cases than pistols do... so I'll try to stick to things that are more important to RPGs.

• The only difference between a "civilian rifle" and a "military rifle" in the 21st century, even in countries with internationally average gun laws, is the capacity for burst/auto fire.
  • Burst/Auto capacity in real life is good for some things police and militaries do, but doesn't apply to most RPG combat systems or how most PCs in most games actually fight.
  • It's easier to build an automatic weapon in your garage than a semi-automatic one, but neither is particularly difficult or time-consuming for a skilled machinist. Incomplete (and thus legal) receiver blanks can be purchased online and turned into functional parts in under an hour.
  • An "assault weapon" is literally just a weapon that is legally defined as an "assault weapon" in legislation intended to ban it. It doesn't mean anything outside of that context.
• An assault rifle fires smaller caliber rounds than most civilian hunting rifles and older battle rifles; this is the main difference between assault rifles and battle rifles.
  • The military doctrine behind this change is that a dead enemy combatant stops fighting, but a wounded and screaming enemy combatant takes a couple of his friends with him.
• Commercial pump-action shotguns come with a "bird plug" installed; this is just a piece of wood that reduces the magazine capacity. This can be quickly, easily, and legally removed if you don't intend to hunt with it. (Though you might have to explain yourself.) Most shotguns hold 5 or 6 shells.
• While the concept of a "sniper rifle" is valid, police snipers use large-caliber deer rifles with aftermarket optics and military snipers use an entire shoulder-mounted weapons system with a targeting computer. If you're a good enough shot to need a "sniper rifle" as your primary weapon, you can build a better rifle than you can buy.
  • Being a good enough marksman to qualify for sniper school isn't an enormous hurdle-- the reason most candidates can't complete the training is the required mathematics. (Fair disclaimer: I'm not that good, no disrespect towards people who are. I also can't hack the math.)
• Real life gun fights involve a ridiculously large number of bullets fired versus a ridiculously low number of injuries.
• Bullets do more physiological damage than muscle-driven weapons, but unless that damage hits something vital, they're not more likely to incapacitate you.
  • If you're still breathing when you get to the hospital, you survive. Literally as simple as that.
  • Most people who survive any kind of serious weapons trauma aren't going to make a full recovery. Ever.
  • Headshot is not a guaranteed kill. If the bullet penetrates the skull, cause of death is more likely blood loss than brain damage.
    • Most people who survive any kind of serious weapons trauma aren't going to make a full recovery. Ever.
    • Headshot is not a guaranteed "serious weapons trauma". Seriously. When the I-5 killer was stopped, they put him away with the help of testimony from a woman he'd shot, execution style, three times and left for dead. A depressed British soldier shot himself in the head and other than some unemployment and some amnesia-- he denied having done it, denied having ever wanted-- the only long-term consequence was some facial scarring and curing his depression.
• Most forms of armor are at least partially effective against firearms, even modern ones.

 

[Nobby-W]

[ . . . ]

• Real life gun fights involve a ridiculously large number of bullets fired versus a ridiculously low number of injuries.

When OP says ridiculous, he really does mean ridiculous. The figures I've seen were about 10,000:1 for WWII and 100,000:1 for Vietnam. There were records of fire bases in Vietnam going through more than a million rounds with no enemy casualties.

 

[Dammit Victor]

Oh, and questions are also welcome-- as disorganized as this info dump was, I surely know more than I remembered here.

I can answer factual questions about American gun law, though questions about State law (outside of Wyoming) are going to get fuzzier answers.

 

[Toadmaster]

When OP says ridiculous, he really does mean ridiculous. The figures I've seen were about 10,000:1 for WWII and 100,000:1 for Vietnam. There were records of fire bases in Vietnam going through more than a million rounds with no enemy casualties.

These numbers are way off base for representing aimed fire as they include a huge amount of suppressive fire aimed at an area, not a seen target. Police and self defense shootings would be far more suitable stats for that.

Also before you spend too much typing you might check out the gun porn thread, a lot of this has been covered there already, and what hasn't would be a good addition to that thread.

 

[Paragon]

When OP says ridiculous, he really does mean ridiculous. The figures I've seen were about 10,000:1 for WWII and 100,000:1 for Vietnam. There were records of fire bases in Vietnam going through more than a million rounds with no enemy casualties.

And as I noted, short range exchanges in urban areas are better but still only average about 1 in 6 rounds actually hitting a target.

 

[Faylar]

I thought Assault Rifles was not a real thing?
I read that internationally, they call them automatic carbines or trench guns but the actual term Assault Rifle is just a colloquialism? I mean, I use it that way too, because familiar terms make great game mechanics, buuuut.

 

[Nobby-W]

I thought Assault Rifles was not a real thing?
I read that internationally, they call them automatic carbines or trench guns but the actual term Assault Rifle is just a colloquialism? I mean, I use it that way too, because familiar terms make great game mechanics, buuuut.

Assault rifle was a translation of the German name for the Stg44 (the original assault rifle developed during WWII), and the name stuck.

 

[Faylar]

Yep, I read that. Is it an official classification though?

 

[Nobby-W]

Yep, I read that. Is it an official classification though?

I couldn't say OTOH whether there is a designation standardised by NATO or some other entity.

 

[Paragon]

I can't find a formal reference, but supposedly so. Note, however, that the M4, for example, does not fit the term, nor does the M-14. Its a lot narrower a term than sometimes is used.

 

[Toadmaster]

Yep, I read that. Is it an official classification though?

Like many technical terms, names develop after the fact, and then people look back and say xyz is a made up term, they didn't really call it that. People go back and create a term to fit a specific ideal. See "Muscle car" for another example of this.


Assault rifle is generally accepted to be a select fire rifle firing an intermediate cartridge. This is a definition that sets up the StG44 as the first "assault rifle". It was originally designated MP43 (machine pistol) and was itself based designs from Wather and Haenel for the MK42 (machine carbine).

In basic concept the US Browning BAR, M1 / M2 Carbine, French Chauchat, and Russian (pre-USSR) Federov Automat, as well as some interwar SMGs firing bigger than standard pistol ammo have legitimate claims to first, as well as substantial reasons they aren't (largely based on the now accepted term which was based around the StG44).

The original BAR was designated an automatic rifle, and did not have a bipod. It was later adopted by the US in the role of a light machinegun, but was used differently from most nations, as the US fielded them in much larger numbers, and used them in a different way from how most used their LMGs. It fires a full size rifle cartridge (30-06) which excludes it from consideration using the now accepted meaning.

The original M1 / M2 Carbine design called for a light select fire rifle, using a cartridge more powerful than a pistol cartidge (at 100 yards a .30 carbine has more energy than a .357 magnum pistol at the muzzle). Going against it as first "assault rifle" was, it was intended to be a light weapon for support troops, not a front line weapon. Second there were issues with the select fire part of the requirement, with the desire to get it into service without delay it was adopted as a semi-auto weapon. It took a few years to work the bugs out of the select fire option, and that was introduced as the M2 carbine (identical except for being select fire). It was not intended for front line use, but it quickly found its way to the front lines, and was used in a similar way to the StG44. There is also a reasonable argument that the M2 is a submachinegun (again, definitions are fuzzy). It is fairly well accepted that it was the first PDW, but even there, hold on buckos, there are detachable stock pistols like the Luger "artillery" model that have a dog in that fight...

Chauchat was a light machine gun, or was it? Like the BAR it was really more of an automatic rifle, in design and use. Very different design and tactics from light machineguns like the Lewis or MG08/15, or even later LMGs like the BREN which could be fired from the shoulder like a rifle, but were mainly intended to be used on a bipod. Like the BAR, it gets excluded by the modern definition which states "intermediate cartridge".

The Federov Automat has the strongest claim for the title. Technically it uses a "full power cartridge" but it really doesn't. The Japanese 6.5x50mm is only marginally more powerful than the 7.92mm Kurz, and considerably less powerful than the standard Russian 7.62x54mm rifle cartridge. There are really few good reasons to exclude it other than it is rare and relatively unknown.

In addition some guns which almost never come up in discussion are some of the interwar submachineguns chamber in very powerful "pistol" cartridges (so powerful in fact that they were rarely chambered in pistols), like the Styer-Solothurn S1-100 which could be had in the 9x25mm Mauser cartridge. This cartridge is significantly more powerful than 9mm Parabellum and in an SMG compares well to .38 Super or lighter .357 magnum loads. Considering for the time 9mm Parabellum was a powerful handgun cartridge in Europe (many military and police forces of the time using .32 ACP or .380 ACP), then like .30 Carbine this is legitimately an intermediate cartridge, just one at the low end of the scale. First assault rifle? Well it is still beat by the Federov, but fair consideration in my few, most call it an SMG though.


As far as "official", no not really the US classified the Garand as U.S. Rifle, caliber .30, M1, and the M16 "assault rifle is classified as U.S. Rifle, caliber 5.56mm, M16. The FN-FAL (Fusil Automatique Leger) translates to light automatic rifle (it was designed to use a smaller cartridge than he 7.62mm NATO it ended up using). The G used to designate German rifles (G3, G36 etc) stands for Gewehr which just means rifle and the number of the design. The British had their "Lee Enfield" Rifle #4 which they used through WW2 and well into the 1960s. It was replaced by the FN-FAL which also introduced a new designation system where all rifles were designated with an L prefix. The British version of the FN-FAL was the L1A1 (L for land weapon system), it was unoffically called the SLR (self-loading rifle, remember they were still using a bolt action rifle in the 1960s, so this was quite an advance), the current L85 "assault rifle" was introduced in the 1980s and has no special designation, except it is occasionally called L85 IW (individual weapon) to differentiate from the L86 LSW (Light Support Weapon).

The French do use the term assault rifle with the FAMAS (Fusil d'Assaut de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Étienne) which translates as Assault rifle from the Saint Etienne weapons factory. Unlike many nations the French have a history of distinguishing the rifles operating method, their WW2 era bolt action MAS-36 was officially designated Fusil a repetition 7mm 5 M36 (repeating rifle 7.5mm M36) and their post was semi-auto rifles MAS-49, and MAS-49/56 were officially Fusil Semi-automatique 7mm 5 M49, or in English semi-automatic rifle 7.5mm M49.


Assault rifles are not unique in this regard, light machine gun is another that is rarely a designation, more commonly just used as a descriptor. PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) is another and mostly a marketing term to describe a (usually) submachinegun that is small and compact like a pistol, but going back to the M1 Carbine and others is far from a new idea and not always an SMG.

Battle rifle is another. This is a term that developed to differentiate "assault rifles" from "old school" full power military rifles. Some look at this and say no body ever called a rifle a battle rifle, and they are right. Also nobody called assault rifles assault rifles until they had become an established feature on the battle ground.

 

[Toadmaster]

I can't find a formal reference, but supposedly so. Note, however, that the M4, for example, does not fit the term, nor does the M-14. Its a lot narrower a term than sometimes is used.

In the 1980s the M4 would likely have been called a submachinegun, like the CAR-15, and HK53. There were a number of short barrel 5.56mm select fire rifles developed in the 1970s and 80s that were called submachineguns. Now that 5.56mm "rifles" with barrels shorter than 16" are common they are being called carbines, short barrel rifles or simply compact "assault rifles". The term submachinegun is returning to its older definition of using a pistol caliber cartridge.

 

[Faylar]

As I understand it (and coded it in my own game)
Pistols and smgs use pistol rounds
Assault rifles use intermediate rounds (i called them carbine rounds for lack of a better term)
And rifles use rifle rounds.

 

[Paragon]

In the 1980s the M4 would likely have been called a submachinegun, like the CAR-15, and HK53. There were a number of short barrel 5.56mm select fire rifles developed in the 1970s and 80s that were called submachineguns. Now that 5.56mm "rifles" with barrels shorter than 16" are common they are being called carbines, short barrel rifles or simply compact "assault rifles". The term submachinegun is returning to its older definition of using a pistol caliber cartridge.

Yeah, I remember the Bushmaster being called a SMG which struck me as odd at the time. I was probably behind usage.

 

[Paragon]

As I understand it (and coded it in my own game)
Pistols and smgs use pistol rounds
Assault rifles use intermediate rounds (i called them carbine rounds for lack of a better term)
And rifles use rifle rounds.

While assault rifles use intermediate rounds, that's not sufficient by itself to be an assault rifle; it also has to have full auto or short burst capacity.

You do have a name for auto-capable larger rifles--battle rifle--but its even more controversial than assault rifle as a term.

 

[Dammit Victor]

I thought Assault Rifles was not a real thing?
I read that internationally, they call them automatic carbines or trench guns but the actual term Assault Rifle is just a colloquialism? I mean, I use it that way too, because familiar terms make great game mechanics, buuuut.

An assault rifle is a selective-fire full-size rifle in an "intermediate caliber", which practically seems to be mean anything between 5.56mm NATO (.223) and 7.62x54mm (roughly .300), while larger selective/automatic rifles are "battle rifles"-- a term which was invented to describe, well... "battle rifles" that weren't now classified as "assault rifles".

It's deeply embedded in American gun politics in a way that I can't answer without taking an obvious stance on the matter. "Assault rifle" is a (para)military term of art to describe the role/function of a particular category of service rifle; "assault weapon" is a term for firearms and firearms accessories defined, in the law that prohibits their possessional and/or sale, by describing a list of various design features.

Basically, an "assault rifle" and an "assault weapon" are going to be similar in appearance, but there's little overlap between the two terms: most assault rifles aren't assault weapons, and most assault weapons aren't functionally assault rifles.

 

[Faylar]

While assault rifles use intermediate rounds, that's not sufficient by itself to be an assault rifle; it also has to have full auto or short burst capacity.

You do have a name for auto-capable larger rifles--battle rifle--but its even more controversial than assault rifle as a term.

Yep, I went with Battle Rifle and Service Rifle. I expanded a few terms to include some game rules. Either way, they use rifle rounds. Then it goes up to LMG, MMG, and HHMG with sniper classes using the same amm type.

Took some liberties to make rules and in game classes work.

 

[Faylar]

An assault rifle is a selective-fire full-size rifle in an "intermediate caliber", which practically seems to be mean anything between 5.56mm NATO (.223) and 7.62x54mm (roughly .300), while larger selective/automatic rifles are "battle rifles"-- a term which was invented to describe, well... "battle rifles" that weren't now classified as "assault rifles".

It's deeply embedded in American gun politics in a way that I can't answer without taking an obvious stance on the matter. "Assault rifle" is a (para)military term of art to describe the role/function of a particular category of service rifle; "assault weapon" is a term for firearms and firearms accessories defined, in the law that prohibits their possessional and/or sale, by describing a list of various design features.

Basically, an "assault rifle" and an "assault weapon" are going to be similar in appearance, but there's little overlap between the two terms: most assault rifles aren't assault weapons, and most assault weapons aren't functionally assault rifles.

God, the American terminology muddies the water. I ignored it.

 

[Dammit Victor]

As I understand it (and coded it in my own game)
Pistols and smgs use pistol rounds
Assault rifles use intermediate rounds (i called them carbine rounds for lack of a better term)
And rifles use rifle rounds.

I mean, if you aren't getting screaming hatemail yet, this is probably "close enough" you got away with it.

Everything is right except "intermediate" rifle rounds being "carbine rounds". Rifle rounds come in "small than intermediate" through "bigger than intermediate" to... I do not know the technical term for the rounds that are used for killing Jeeps and Elephants. Assault rifles use the "intermediate rounds" and and carbines fire pistol rounds.

 

[Dammit Victor]

God, the American terminology muddies the water. I ignored it.

That's fair. I would, too, and that's pretty much what I'm trying to tell you.

 

[Faylar]

I mean, if you aren't getting screaming hatemail yet, this is probably "close enough" you got away with it.

Everything is right except "intermediate" rifle rounds being "carbine rounds". Rifle rounds come in "small than intermediate" through "bigger than intermediate" to... I do not know the technical term for the rounds that are used for killing Jeeps and Elephants. Assault rifles use the "intermediate rounds" and and carbines fire pistol rounds.

Oh I know. I grew up with guns, had a mini 14 (well my dad bought it for me and used it himself exclusively... lol)
Fallout 4 called some rifles Varmint rifles. I thought that was pretty clever.
my own in game classifications are reconstructions in a rebuilding period after an ELE, so I can take some creative licence.
I'm mostly making everything fit into one of categories for each type, Light, Medium, and Heavy.

 

[Toadmaster]

As I understand it (and coded it in my own game)
Pistols and smgs use pistol rounds
Assault rifles use intermediate rounds (i called them carbine rounds for lack of a better term)
And rifles use rifle rounds.

Carbine is another wandering definition depending on the time period. At one time a carbine was simply a short rifle using the same ammo as the "long" rifle. In German service Gew98 and Kar98AZ (later Kar98a) were the rifle (29" barrel) and carbine (23" barrel) in use during WW1.
By WW2 "short rifles" were all the rage and Germany adopted the Kar98k (k for kurz, or short) as their primary infantry rifle. The Kar (for Karabiner, carbine) was retained since it was based on the Kar98a, although it was now classified a rifle. To muddy the waters further the Germans came up with a short 19" barrel "carbine" version of the 98k, the G40k (G for Gewehr, rifle) although it wasn't adopted. They did adopt the Czechoslovakian Vz33, a 19" barrel Mauser variant as the G33/40 (G again for rifle, on a weapon with a shorter barrel than their standard carbine, er rifle...).

The British were a bit more thoughtful about things, although I am going to simplify because British weapon nomenclature through WW2 is an insane hodgepodge of numbers, marks and stars.
They introduced the Lee Enfield (MLE, Magazine Lee Enfield) rifle in 1895, an improvement on the earlier Lee Metford rifle. In 1896 they adopted a 21" barrel cavalry carbine (LEC, Lee Enfield Carbine). In 1904 they introduced the weapon that with fairly minor modifications would see them through 2 World Wars and many smaller conflicts, the SMLE or Short Magazine Lee Enfield. This was a "short" rifle with a 25" barrel. During WW2 they introduced a "jungle carbine" variant with an 18-3/4" barrel and a reportedly fearsome muzzle blast.

Other nations followed similar trends.

Come WW2 and you run into part 2 of carbines. Light handy rifles shooting lower powered cartridges. The M1 Carbine is a classic example, it did not use the same cartridge as the US service rifle, the M1 Garand (.30 Carbine, 7.62x33mm vs 30-06, 7.62x63mm). Another is the Delisle carbine, essentially a cut down and suppressed Lee Enfield rifle, chambered for the .45ACP pistol cartridge.

A carbine of the WW2 era with an 18-20" barrel, would today generally be considered a rifle. In the 80s a lot of "carbines" had 14-17" barrels and rifles typically 18-24". Less than 14" was generally just "different", as I mentioned in the earlier post many of the short "assault rifles" were classified as SMGs at that time.

Carbines chambered for low power cartridges, were just carbines. Now they are being classified as PCCs (pistol caliber carbines) and "carbines" with really short barrels shooting "rifle" caliber cartridges (generally "intermediate" cartridges) are now SBRs (short barrel rifles).

Confused, good you should be. It is madness trying to adhere to strictly to any of these definitions, which seem to change on a whim.

 

[Toadmaster]

Oh, another example to frost your melon. Lever action "rifles" shooting pistol caliber cartridges can be purchased as a rifle (longer barrel, typically 18-22") or as a carbine (typically 16-18").

 

[Faylar]

Carbine is another wandering definition depending on the time period. At one time a carbine was simply a short rifle using the same ammo as the "long" rifle. In German service Gew98 and Kar98AZ (later Kar98a) were the rifle (29" barrel) and carbine (23" barrel) in use during WW1.
By WW2 "short rifles" were all the rage and Germany adopted the Kar98k (k for kurz, or short) as their primary infantry rifle. The Kar (for Karabiner, carbine) was retained since it was based on the Kar98a, although it was now classified a rifle. To muddy the waters further the Germans came up with a short 19" barrel "carbine" version of the 98k, the G40k (G for Gewehr, rifle) although it wasn't adopted. They did adopt the Czechoslovakian Vz33, a 19" barrel Mauser variant as the G33/40 (G again for rifle, on a weapon with a shorter barrel than their standard carbine, er rifle...).

The British were a bit more thoughtful about things, although I am going to simplify because British weapon nomenclature through WW2 is an insane hodgepodge of numbers, marks and stars.
They introduced the Lee Enfield (MLE, Magazine Lee Enfield) rifle in 1895, an improvement on the earlier Lee Metford rifle. In 1896 they adopted a 21" barrel cavalry carbine (LEC, Lee Enfield Carbine). In 1904 they introduced the weapon that with fairly minor modifications would see them through 2 World Wars and many smaller conflicts, the SMLE or Short Magazine Lee Enfield. This was a "short" rifle with a 25" barrel. During WW2 they introduced a "jungle carbine" variant with an 18-3/4" barrel and a reportedly fearsome muzzle blast.

Other nations followed similar trends.

Come WW2 and you run into part 2 of carbines. Light handy rifles shooting lower powered cartridges. The M1 Carbine is a classic example, it did not use the same cartridge as the US service rifle, the M1 Garand (.30 Carbine, 7.62x33mm vs 30-06, 7.62x63mm). Another is the Delisle carbine, essentially a cut down and suppressed Lee Enfield rifle, chambered for the .45ACP pistol cartridge.

A carbine of the WW2 era with an 18-20" barrel, would today generally be considered a rifle. In the 80s a lot of "carbines" had 14-17" barrels and rifles typically 18-24". Less than 14" was generally just "different", as I mentioned in the earlier post many of the short "assault rifles" were classified as SMGs at that time.

Carbines chambered for low power cartridges, were just carbines. Now they are being classified as PCCs (pistol caliber carbines) and "carbines" with really short barrels shooting "rifle" caliber cartridges (generally "intermediate" cartridges) are now SBRs (short barrel rifles).

Confused, good you should be. It is madness trying to adhere to strictly to any of these definitions, which seem to change on a whim.

Lol, yep.

I believe the first carbines were the cavalry versions of the Arquebus and Musket.

I had found in my travels a list of some international firearms classification from the UN once. I copied it down but damned if I can find the site again.

 

[Faylar]

Oh, another example to frost your melon. Lever action "rifles" shooting pistol caliber cartridges can be purchased as a rifle (longer barrel, typically 18-22") or as a carbine (typically 16-18").

Had one of those. I want to say... Winchester. Could be wrong.
My dad now has a nice 303 lever.
For the record, I do not actually own guns. My dad has a few that he bought for me, adn I used as a kid, but they are all his at his place. So I am familiar, but I wasn't the one breaking down a different gun every night on a bed sheet while drinking wine and watching war movies... if you know what I mean.

 

[Toadmaster]

Lol, yep.

I believe the first carbines were the cavalry versions of the Arquebus and Musket.

I had found in my travels a list of some international firearms classification from the UN once. I copied it down but damned if I can find the site again.

Oh yes, lets go down that path of smoothbore "rifles". Pre-20th century the terminology just gets ever more twisted, as they distinguish between really long rifles, shorter rifles, long carbines, regular carbines, short carbines and then special terms based on who gets issued what. It is like setting a fancy dining table with all the special knives, forks and spoons. It is amazing that they found the time to have wars.

 

[Faylar]

Derringers are also confusing, I found. So many derringer manufacturers refuse to call them derringer because it was a company name. Instead, they use various terms like hold outs, palm pistols, etc...

 

[Nobby-W]

Derringers are also confusing, I found. So many derringer manufacturers refuse to call them derringer because it was a company name. Instead, they use various terms like hold outs, palm pistols, etc...

There is an outfit called American Derringer that uses the term liberally. It may be that they have managed to trademark the name Derringer, although it looks like they have no connection to Derringer himself.

And they have a web site that looks like something out of Geocities and was last updated in 2011.

 

[Toadmaster]

Derringers are also confusing, I found. So many derringer manufacturers refuse to call them derringer because it was a company name. Instead, they use various terms like hold outs, palm pistols, etc...

Deringer (one r) was a man's name, and he defended its use for the small pistols he sold. Derringer (2 rs) was a response to get around his trademarks. Being simple pistols there were lots of similar guns made. Traditionally it applies to single and double barrel pistols, so these other names are both in response to the threat of legal action, as well as differentiating small guns of similar concept, but different design, as with small revolvers, multi-barrel pistols and other designs. If you sold a 4 shot "derringer" you would want to distinguish it to stand out from the typical 1 or 2 barrel design.

Personally I think hold out or pocket pistol is a better term anyway as it covers the whole spectrum of mini revolvers, tiny semi autos and the large variety of other small easily concealed handguns.

 

[Faylar]

I ultimately went with Hold-out. Problem was... I had previously only seen it in Shadowrun until I started searching for Derringer alternatives. So I thought it was an SR thing, and my game is already dangerously close to being a Shadowrun heartbreaker.
It was fun research though... all of it. I learned more about the history of guns in general than I would have thought necessary.

 

[Toadmaster]

There is an outfit called American Derringer that uses the term liberally. It may be that they have managed to trademark the name Derringer, although it looks like they have no connection to Derringer himself.

And they have a web site that looks like something out of Geocities and was last updated in 2011.

I think they just cornered the market for that niche. They started out making traditional 2 barrel derringers and over the years have bought out several other makers of small handguns that are not all proper "derringers" but that fit the same market. I think this is actually a tougher market to be successful in than one would assume. Many of these small guns are expensive to make, low volume, and low profit margins.

 

[Faylar]

I read an OLD novel from around the 40s that had a woman assassin commit what the author called a "boob job" by killing the guy with a derringer hidden in her breasts. It was around when the word boob was coined and taking off from the 1930s literature.
I think that was the first time I recall noticing the Derringer tbh.

 

[CRKrueger]

Yep, I read that. Is it an official classification though?

The US military has an official definition for Assault Rifle, a select-fire rifle firing an “intermediate” round.

Depending on who you talk to, “Battle Rifle” is for rounds either 7.62x51 and up, or .30-06 and up.

The term ”Assault Weapon” is a made up term used only to define features of weapons for purposes of Gun Control in US Law. Similarly PCCs and SBRs are US ATF classifications used to determine legality of weapons.

Basically the politicians come up with made up terms and weird ways to limit weapons and since the politicians know nothing about them, the gun manufacturers are able to come out with ways to get around the laws, and then the cycle goes around again, with the ATF stuck in the middle having to constantly deal with the federal response to the State’s and gun companies’ literal and figurative arm’s race.

 

[Faylar]

The US military has an official definition for Assault Rifle, a select-fire rifle firing an “intermediate” round.

Depending on who you talk to, “Battle Rifle” is for rounds either 7.62x51 and up, or .30-06 and up.

The term ”Assault Weapon” is a made up term used only to define features of weapons for purposes of Gun Control in US Law. Similarly PCCs and SBRs are US ATF classifications used to determine legality of weapons.

Basically the politicians come up with made up terms and weird ways to limit weapons and since the politicians know nothing about them, the gun manufacturers are able to come out with ways to get around the laws, and then the cycle goes around again, with the ATF stuck in the middle having to constantly deal with the federal response to the State’s and gun companies’ literal and figurative arm’s race.

Indeed. It seems like the US is also the best in the world at muddying the waters on that score. I found so many contradictions in States classifications that I completely decided to ignore any US gun classifications altogether.

 

[Nobby-W]

I read an OLD novel from around the 40s that had a woman assassin commit what the author called a "boob job" by killing the guy with a derringer hidden in her breasts. It was around when the word boob was coined and taking off from the 1930s literature.
I think that was the first time I recall noticing the Derringer tbh.

There's a good Irish film called The Guard, starring Brendan Gleeson and Don Cheadle, that features a Derringer.

 

[Séadna]

There's a good Irish film called The Guard, starring Brendan Gleeson and Don Cheadle, that features a Derringer.

That one is an interesting film from a cultural perspective and one I have a lot of opinions about, but I'm not sure of whether I'd be crossing political lines with them (I don't think so, but I can never guess). Don Cheadle is very good in it.

EDIT: I'll think about it a bit and stick it in the "What have you watched" thread.

 

[Nobby-W]

That one is an interesting film from a cultural perspective and one I have a lot of opinions about, but I'm not sure of whether I'd be crossing political lines with them (I don't think so, but I can never guess). Don Cheadle is very good in it.

If you've got something interesting to say, cross away. The powers that be will tell you if they think you're overdoing it.

 

[Toadmaster]

That one is an interesting film from a cultural perspective and one I have a lot of opinions about, but I'm not sure of whether I'd be crossing political lines with them (I don't think so, but I can never guess). Don Cheadle is very good in it.

I don't think politics are really so much of an issue as political opinions which lead to flame wars. Like I don't think there is a problem saying Andrew Jackson did some stuff to Native Americans that today is rather frowned on, so that is why some want him taken off the $20 bill. That is just facts that may not be known well to those outside the US, or even many here who are not up to speed on history. Debating the merits of his actions or calling him a big fat poopy head meany pants, or saying that his detractors are a bunch of whiny Stalin lovers... Now that is likely to bring in some Mod intervention with good reason.

I get the no politics and agree with the reasons for it, but I'd hate to see it taken so far that the historical reasons for such debates are completely off limits. There is so much good juicy gaming fodder there, and there is little history that is completely apolitical. Wars make for a great campaign backdrop and they are generally very political.


So spill it mister.

 

[Dammit Victor]

I don't think politics are really so much of an issue as political opinions which lead to flame wars.

I've been very circumspect about the difference in meaning between an "assault rifle" and an "assault weapon" for political reasons; just because something is a value-neutral statement of absolute verifiable fact doesn't mean that it's not extremely controversial amongst people who are personally invested in its opposite.

It's easy enough to infer from this thread that I'm (at least) generally opposed to gun control, but people have inferred a lot of other facts about my other beliefs-- generally false-- from that fact that I'm grateful I'm not allowed to say anything explicitly and I'm extra grateful noone's allowed to ask.

 

[Dammit Victor]

Oh, this just came up: flamethrowers are banned for use in war by international convention.

In the United States, they're not regulated as weapons because civilians almost exclusively only use them for their agricultural applications-- I've never been able to find a verifiable report of a single homicide, arson, or assault committed with a flamethrower.

Just some musician who broke nuisance laws with a (fairly safe) stunt, and some protester arrested with all manner of illegal weapons with the flamethrower included for the sake of the headline.