Freeform Spell Casting for OSR Games

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Fenris-77

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So, a caveat, this is firmly based on the particular OSR rules found in the Black Hack 2E, because that's my current OSR rules set. I think it should be easily portable though. This is very much a rough cut, so I'm looking for some input about point cost, complexity, blah blah.

So, to start, here's how spellcasting works in BH2E:

A Spellcaster can spend an Action on their turn to cast a spell or prayer from memory. Once the effects of the spell have been resolved, the Spellcaster should make an Attribute Test - adding the spell’s or prayer’s level to the roll. If they have already cast the spell this session, the Attribute Test is made with Disadvantage. If they fail, the spell or prayer is no longer memorised. (BH2E pg 15)

There's no real penalty to trying to cast something a second time other than losing the memorization for that day. Casters have memorized spells equal to their level, and can't memorize a spell of a level higher than their level. So slots are a little more restrictive than 5E because you can't as easily recast, especially more than twice. Here's an example BH2E spell:

Magic Missile: A faraway or distant target takes 1d6 damage for each of the spellcasters levels. (Level 1 spell)

So, back to freeform casting. I wanted this to be more restrictive and less efficient than memorized (formulaic hereafter) spells. It's not supposed to replace formulaic spells, just add a layer of creative possibility. It certainly could replace formulaic casting, but I'd probably monkey around with the numbers a little. Basically, this is a points for effect system (we're going to call the points mana, but I'd prefer a different word). Keep in mind that BH2E is a roll-under game, so plusses to the roll are bad, and minuses to the roll are good. I didn't want this to be able to do everything that formulaic spells do, so there are a limited number of things you can do. You add up the points and then subtract any benefits to determine the overall mod for the casting roll. Point costs are in parentheses.

Costs
1. Damage: d4(1), d6(2), 2d4 (3) 2d6(4)

2 Effect: (2) pick one of the following conditions:
  • Weakened - All Attribute Tests are rolled with Disadvantage.
  • Distracted - A Character cannot perform any Actions, but may still Move normally.
  • Stuck - A Character cannot Move, but they may take Actions as per normal.
  • Paralysed - A Character cannot Move or take any Action
3. Range: Touch (-1), Close (0), Nearby (1), Far Away (2), Distant (3)

4. Area/Creatures Affected: one (0), 2 or 10x10 (2), 3 or 30x30 (3)

5. Illusory Effects: 1 Sense (1), 2 Senses (3), All Senses (4)

Benefits

1. Component Use (benefit for >5 mana/5-9 mana/10+ mana)
  • Rare Components (cost 2d8x5 Coin Ud6) (-1/-1/na)
  • Exotic Components (cost 4d8x10 Coin Ud6) (-2/-1/-1)
2. Preparation Time 5 minutes (-1), 1/2 Hour (-2), 1 hour (-2)

3. HP Expenditure: 2HP per (-1) max (-3)

4. Caster Level: -1 per level

5. Environmental Effects (high magic zone etc): GM Discretion good or bad

Process: total up the points and make an attribute roll. Success means you get the spell, failure means you take a level of exhaustion (6 levels and you die, so it's not a minor inconvenience). If the caster has any levels of exhaustion already, make the roll at disadvantage. A critical failure means 2 levels of exhaustion and a minute spent unconsious. Spells cast with a range of touch have an additional downside in that a failure to cast will also get you smacked in the noggin by the target (the GM doesn't roll in BH2E)

So, about components, there's no need to track specific components, just roll the Usage Die and take the bennie. The cost in coins is a price that actually means something in game terms, as does the fact that it takes up an encumbrance slot. I would encourage players to get creative with their descriptions here, but I don't want that detail at the character sheet level. So what does this system actually let a mage do?

Example 1: Force Bolt d6 damage (2) at a single nearby target (1) means a roll at -3 (compare to Magic Missle above)

Example 2: Fire Ball (Lite) 2d6 damage (4) affecting 3 creatures (3) up to Far Away Range (2) means a roll at -9. This is where you need levels and/or components

I feel like it's at least close to balanced compared to formulaic spells. Less effect but a lot more flex, and with significant downsides. I'm not sure how high the scales should go above what written. This is supposed to me more like cantrips that level rather than a complete replacement casting system.

Thoughts? Critique? Polite laughter? I'm ready for it all. :grin:
 
It's similar to what I do for most of my games. The Arcane Confabulation in particular works very much like that.

I remember an article in Dragon Magazine that created a system for figuring spell levels. There were a couple that didn't fit, one was Stone Skin.
 
Yeah, I really didn't want to recreate all the possible spell effect in a freeform system at all. That's more crunch than I'm looking for. I wanted something easy to manage without constant reference to tables and lists of costs and effects.
 
I wrote a javascript to collate the options to create a spell list.

In the Arcane Confabulation, you can dig through your spell books or use your general knowledge of a subject to cast spells or learn them as skills. So it's not purely freeform or at least, free form is too time consuming.

One thing The Arcane Confabulation needs is rules for other casting traditions. It's part of the big, unfinished campaigns supplement.
 
Have you checked out other OSR freeform spell systems like the ones in Freebooters on the Frontier and Whitehack?
 
Have you checked out other OSR freeform spell systems like the ones in Freebooters on the Frontier and Whitehack?
Some of them, yeah. Well, actually rather a lot of them. Not Freebooters though, I'll check that out.
 
....

Thoughts? Critique? Polite laughter? I'm ready for it all. :grin:
Love it. What I've been doing for decades. A spell point system essentially. I too use the term mana and call them mana points.
I give spells a base cost and effect then certain aspects (exactly along the lines you are going) can be varied by "pumping" in further spell points. Devil is in the balancing the costs and total points, but eminently doable.

One aspect I did add was a way for spell casters to add in mana points to lower saving throws for certain spells.

I ended up describing spell by a base statistic and step. For example, magic missile might be Damage: 1d4 base, step 1d4; Range 10" base; step 5". Where each step cost the same to buy, e.g., 2 spell points. I ended up trying to make range and damage and number effected and area etc. fairly standard in both base (at a given level) and step. Kind of like putting magic on a universal scale.

This ended up making the basic cost rules easier to remember and not mess up, and helps get those devilish details correct.

Another aspect, is you may be able to conflate spells.
(1) For example "Illusion" could be a low level spell but weak as a base level, e.g. just 1 sense, short range, and limited area. There would be no higher level illusion spells, you just duplicate that effect by putting more mana points into the spell, to increase the number of senses confused, range, area etc.
and
(2) I fiddled with collapsing all fire spells into one, where the base spell would be like a fire arrow, and with additional power to add in an area effect could make it into a fireball.

In the end I tried to keep the number of adjustable spell parameters down and settled on a compromise. So Flame Arrow would be all direct, non-area effect flame attacks; Fire Ball all direct, area effect flame attacks, etc.

Now there is something to be said flavor-wise where each spell has it's own near unique progression, effect & cost chart...heck the details in the progression can be the difference it the Magic Missile of Arwan the Necromancer from the Magic Missile of Diane the Kind. This kind of thing would be great I think where spells are esoteric, few and far between. Maybe Arwan's magic missile have the option to tweak and heal undead, where Diane's have an option to dispel magic darkness...weird unique stuff like that as well.

I will say that all my players who love to play spell casters, they love such flexible systems, and no amount of crunch seemed too much. The reduced crunch and uniqueness was more to make my life as referee easier, but also helped those who wanted just some basic easy to use magic.
 
Hmm, I was keeping the dressing out of the rules because I was planning on having each caster having a sphere (one to start, maybe more later IDK) that would serve as the flavour for all their spells (player choice there, no mechanical effcet). I was also planning on casters being able to find and also create their own formulaic spells. If the freeform thing was going to be the whole casting system I think I would have to broaden it out a bunch in several ways.

I like the notion that you can spend point to lower saves, but for Black Hack play its unnecessary because the GM never rolls, so creatures have no saves per se. They do have armour dice though, and bypassing those could be an idea. I was actually toying around with the idea of adding a point cost across the board and adding a benefit of 1-2 for suitably awesome narration and spell names, but that seemed a better notion than actual practice. :grin:
 
Fair enough on the dressing, it is more an idea I tinker with than have implemented in game. Players seemed happy enough they can choose if want to increase spell damage, range, duration, effect, etc. or just go with a base spell. I strongly recommend there be base effects for each spell that make sense, it avoids a lot of having to design a spell each time you cast it.

I go so far as with certain spell categories at certain spell levels all have base effects across the level. Like all base elemental attack spells have a range of 20".

Hmm not familiar with Black Hack, another RPG where defense was static and you bypassed it was Dragon Warriors, in that case weapons, magic etc. had a by pass die and if you rolled over the defense you bypassed it IIRC. Design wise do like that approach as you can get similar effects to save and cut down on die rolls as a referee....always much appreciated as like large combats that proceeded at a brisk pace.
 
By casting spheres do you mean like fire magic, conjuration, necromancy, etc.?
 
Yeah, if it was all free form I'd have base spells for sure, great idea. As it is the formulaic spell list from BH2E is what the list of effects is built off of and it's designed to be more flexible but less efficient - a companion system rather than a replacement.

I have considered going all flex, maybe as a modular system for my personal Hack, and in that case I'd be incorporating a bunch of the stuff you mention.
 
By casting spheres do you mean like fire magic, conjuration, necromancy, etc.?
Yeah, pretty much whatever the player wanted. Straight flavour though. So your sphere is insects and disease? Cool, just flavour all the same spells to match your concept. It's a idea I'm stealing from Swords of the Serpentine, although I think I still need to hammer it out flat a little more. This is all very much WiP.
 
I personally ended up doing a completely modular system to rationalize spell power (as I envision it) across all types of spells and levels. It helped make things consistent. Then I just built all my spells with those pieces. So the modular system was design notes really, as players don't really design their own spells, could if they wanted.

I started building mine of of AD&D, ala 1979, but eventually just did a who re-rationalization and organization.
 
Yeah, pretty much whatever the player wanted. Straight flavour though. So your sphere is insects and disease? Cool, just flavour all the same spells to match your concept. It's a idea I'm stealing from Swords of the Serpentine, although I think I still need to hammer it out flat a little more. This is all very much WiP.
Interesting. For me I would give it mechanical effect, perhaps there is a base "creature" control spell. But for insect specialization that would be replaced with insect control, while a more forest focus it would be animal, and for those damn snake cults snake control. Or maybe just a better chance to control insects (bypass die or modifier) and worse chance against animals.

On disease focus, I might have a base "heal" spell but for disease focus it is good at disease and poor at wounds (maybe it heals some to reflect removing chance of infection).

Yet another way is to just tag certain spells with certain labels as insect, disease etc. and if you focus on that you get spell cost savings or better bypass die, etc. A spell could have more than one tag, and likely will.

My personal approach is you learn magic within a certain sphere, as a skill, and have 14 broad spheres.
 
Ahh, so one thing I should have mentioned - this was only for arcane spells. I'm not not going to do it for divine spells, but none of those effects are listed above (as I'm sure you noticed) because I'm still not sure how I want to handle the casting classes in my hack, and I may do away with the Cleric entirely and fold those effects into general casting (at which point I have a lot of balancing to do, I know). Or I'll just add Divine options like the OP and keep them separate, IDK yet.

To get a little more granular for what that School/Sphere was going to look like, I was going to have the player create, as the main piece of their background, an Arcane School where they received their training. SO give it a pompous sounding name and blather on a bit about their style etc etc. It's not supposed to be all that restrictive. I'm not aiming to use environmental damage a a differentiating factor for many beasts or monsters, so the choice of fire or ice is mainly stylistic (for example). So something like the following (I'm making this up on the fly):

School: Cadre of the Ivory Towers. A bureaucratic order attached to the civil service in the capital of Dernos. Their practice uses incense of many varieties, and they are sometimes disparagingly called smokies by other schools as a result. Their spells tend to involve white yellow blasts of light or divine looking fire accompanied by smoke of many colors. Divination spells are often characterized by a fine tracery of light wrapping up each of the casters arms.

So you see, not like Enchanter, or Necromancer, but more about flavour and background. In fact, the idea is to wrap the character background into their casting school, at least to some degree. Background, in terms of BH2E serves as a widely descriptive set of skills that allow one skill reroll per session on a related roll.
 
I see, my schools/spheres are definitively functional areas of magic, like conjuration, necromancy, divination, and the like.

On divine magic, I have it work the same except when a PC comes from the religious side of spell casting there is also a parameter I call Belief (shortest word that conveys the concept :smile: ). Belief is like an attribute, you can raise it by various character improvement means and actions. It is the mechanism by which PCs are "punished" if they act outside the accords of their religious organization (I have no alignments) as their Belief decrease if they do this. I also use it for various magical effects and spells.

For example certain magical items have greater power if you have greater belief in the associated deity or their broad sphere of concern, for example life, or order. Also some spells and items only hurt those with belief in a deity of an opposed sphere, for example if you have high enough belief in a life deity and touch something associated with a death deity, it will likely hurt you. Also if your belief is really high enough your pray for divine assistance may even be heard!

I like your school description, very flavorful.

On fire vs ice vs lightening vs air vs earth etc, I do make them have different mechanical effects not just as to types and resistances or weaknesses. I've always though been big on keeping in mind secondary effects, like fire attacks weakening straps and setting clothes on fire, ice attacks causing potions to freeze and shatter, etc.

It is easy for me to differentiate mechanically as have several combat concepts that allow for such, maybe harder in a D&D hack.

In short for me I use, different types of damage, stun vs. lethal and armor helps prevent damage so weapons (and spell effects) have penetration...then add in secondary effects like knockdown, initiative loss. For example fire has low penetration and does lethal damage (it's a pretty pure damage type magic); whereas ice magic does stun (numerically a lot more points of damage than fire but stun damage is healed quickly) and can lower you initiative as joints etc. freeze.....so more than just flavor or choosing ice magic against fire creatures and vice versa.
 
Wow, I'm really struggling with clarity in this thread, sorry. I blame the pain meds. So when I say "not mechanical" I mean in terms of monster resistance. In terms of chewing the scenery it could very much matter depending on what you chose and how you describe it. The Black Hack is pretty streamlined from a rules perspective, but if I were using a rules set closer to BECMI or especially AD&D, I would be going to route you've gone.
 
Had to look up Black Hack, make sure understand it. So basically it is OD&D with some BECMI thrown in? Not certain.

I'm all for streamlined and not needing a rule for everything...it is more where streamlined is a misnomer for simplistic and/or incomplete with respect to common RPG situations. Having started with OD&D what I found on the Black Hack, looks like various house rule versions saw back in the day (the day being 1978). :smile:

I love streamlined, for me it is the fewest parameters possible to get the verisimilitude I desire, and have rules for common situations. A lot of my damage type and armor piercing stuff can be implemented with built in OD&D saving throws, + to hit versus armored opponents, etc. Many ways to skin the cat...at least for me as the goal is verisimilitude and not simulation.
 
Had to look up Black Hack, make sure understand it. So basically it is OD&D with some BECMI thrown in? Not certain.

I'm all for streamlined and not needing a rule for everything...it is more where streamlined is a misnomer for simplistic and/or incomplete with respect to common RPG situations. Having started with OD&D what I found on the Black Hack, looks like various house rule versions saw back in the day (the day being 1978). :smile:

I love streamlined, for me it is the fewest parameters possible to get the verisimilitude I desire, and have rules for common situations. A lot of my damage type and armor piercing stuff can be implemented with built in OD&D saving throws, + to hit versus armored opponents, etc. Many ways to skin the cat...at least for me as the goal is verisimilitude and not simulation.
Its closer to BECMI from a complexity standpoint. Standard 6 stats, four base classes, no races other than human. It's a roll under stat mechanic rather than rising DC, and the GM doesn't roll for anything (so in combat the players roll to attack and to defend), and saves are all direct ability rolls based on type of effect.

The other main mechanical difference is the Usage Die to track consumables, so rations are a d6 usage, roll every time you use them, on a 1-2 the die steps down (to d4 in this case) and if you roll a 1-2 on the d4 you're out. Components would work exactly that way as I detailed them in the OP. The game doesn't use AC, armour provides armor dice that can be 'broken' to avoid all damage on one attack, and may be repaired in downtime.

I'm with you on verisimilitude over simulation, for sure.
 
Interesting...I think my group would love the usage die until they run out. :smile: Then we'd go back to tracking as they are exceptionally good at maintaining supplies...we are a bit loose with it though.

Have you seen or tried Dragon Warriors? It may have ideas that work with the BH changes from base OD&D.
 
Nope, I haven't looked at DW yet, but I'll give it a gander. The usage die is a wonderful mechanic, its lets me lean on resource management without it getting fiddly.
 
Following is my first draft of the fluff that wraps the system in the OP. It need to be fleshed out, but this is the gist.

Lesser, or Unrefined Magics

When in a need an adept can summon raw magical energy to herself and shape it to do her bidding. Every adept learns fragments of the divine speech as part of her training, syllables and words that still hum with the energy of creation, a primal language that scholars have called Deiotic. The fragments of Deiotic we know come from shards of ancient stelae and obelisks, carved from diorite, and limned with gold the far distant past. The fragments are not in themselves magical, and some show other non-magical ideograms or fragments of pictures. Nevertheless, they are prized beyond any treasure and wars have been fought and empires toppled to gain possession of even a single fragment.

This shaping of raw magic is not without risk however, as it is draining and perilous endeavor. The human mind was not built to hold or shape the grammar of the gods, and most adepts can only manage to utter a few syllables at a time with any great chance of success, and even the greatest sages struggle with longer phrases. Based on the discoveries of Grammatists, sages who study and parse the divine speech, there are various foci and supports an adept can use to help focus their attempts.

Greater, or Formulaic Magics

Deiotic has been studied by sages and adepts, often referred to as Grammatists, for millennia in an attempt to take the fragments of divine speech men still possess and fashion something more out of it. Deiotic has been glossed, annotated, referenced, expanded upon and experimented with. Adepts have slowly learned how to weave in other speech and other gestures, as well as physical substances, together into formulae, which, when uttered, have greater effect than the fragments of divine speech alone. The combinations of syllables and these other elements has allowed for magics that have very different results than the somewhat simple range possible using the syllables alone. Adepts are often solitary and secretive individuals, so not all the possible formulae are known, perhaps not even a fraction. Knowledge of rare formulae is jealously guarded, and various magical schools are constantly waging wars in the shadows to try and learnt their rivals’ secrets, with spies and assassins used as liberally as any mundane conflict.
 
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I like the ideas discussed here so far.

Another thought is that I think that the old Dragonlance Fifth Age SAGA rules set was really freeform. I don't recall a lot about it, but I think you got to choose spell range, effect, damage, duration ... a bunch of things that each cost points ... and that translated into spell difficulty. That might serve for some inspiration in your system.
 
I like the ideas discussed here so far.

Another thought is that I think that the old Dragonlance Fifth Age SAGA rules set was really freeform. I don't recall a lot about it, but I think you got to choose spell range, effect, damage, duration ... a bunch of things that each cost points ... and that translated into spell difficulty. That might serve for some inspiration in your system.
The real trick so far has been balancing detail with playability. I didn't want a super complex system at all, but rather something a player can pick up and wing without a lot of bother. Flexibility and elegance isn't as easy as it sounds. :goof: I want players to be able to cast something on the fly in combat without having to do a lot of crunchy stuff. This is a good start, but it's not exactly what I want.
 
The real trick so far has been balancing detail with playability. I didn't want a super complex system at all, but rather something a player can pick up and wing without a lot of bother. Flexibility and elegance isn't as easy as it sounds. :goof: I want players to be able to cast something on the fly in combat without having to do a lot of crunchy stuff. This is a good start, but it's not exactly what I want.
Indeed. My solution...and think you can simplify this even more.

Spell Aspects: Limit the number of aspects of a spell that can be changed, aspects being: range, duration, area of effect, damage
Spell Customization in Steps: Each aspect can only be increased in pre-specified steps (no calculation). To the extent possible make the steps the same across spells, or at least a few categories, and note the step in the spell description. Err on the side of making the steps bigger but more costly.
Universal Costs: Each step for every aspect cost the same (so to raise range 1 step cost the same as raising duration 1 step...thus no need to memorize a cost list)
Universal Aspects: Can be things like fast spell casting, reduce target saving throw.
Small Numbers: I'd make the basic step cost 2 or 4, preferably 2. It is a small number and you want to have some flexibility for things you want to cost less, like 1 or a bit more like 3. If you make it cost 4 you may want the steps to be larger.
Bases Spells: Make the base spell (without spending any points) useful so player can just use as is.
Base Cost or Fire-n-Forget or Combo: A spell point system does not necessarily require you to pay to cast spells, though it could. If you do the cost determination should be simple, a fixed cost, or simple formula like n point(s) per spell level, or 1 point per spell level squared. AND/OR one can do a combo where one pays a point cost not to forget a spell after casting OR one can require spell points be used to memorize OR one could require spell points to be used to memorize and cast.
Simple at Low & Mid Levels: Found there is no need to worry if things get more complicated at high levels, e.g. more book keeping, and options. Players that gravitate to high level magic wielder play generally have no issues with complex...and those who do can just use the base spell.
Spell Points: I'd keep them precious, if spells don't cost to cast can be as low as a caster's level, sometimes it is the casters level squared...or fixed per level. One could include bonus points based on attributes like IN, WS, CH etc. depending on type of magic/class/species/ etc. The bonus could be one time or every level.
ANOTHER IDEA: Spell points could be rolled, like hit points (with or without an attribute bonus). One could also make some tough player choices here. Perhaps the nominal Spell Point die is d6 and the nominal Hit Point die is d4, but the player can decide to reverse them each level, and perhaps with a cap, and use this to distinguish classes/species some. For example say magic-user gets d8 spell point die, and d4 HP die per level, perhaps they decide to reverse them to get more HP, so roll d8 for HP this level and d4 for spell points, but with a cap of 4 on the HP die. The same cap could be applied in reverse where if our HP die is larger than your spell point die.
Examples using D&D type stuff:
Magic User: spell point die d8, HP die d4 (uses IN for any bonus)
Cleric: spell point die d6, HP die d6 (uses WS for any bonus)
Bard: spell point die d6, HP die d8 (uses CH for any bonus)
Ranger: spell point die d4, HP die d8 (uses CN for any bonus)
...etc.
 
So, a caveat, this is firmly based on the particular OSR rules found in the Black Hack 2E, because that's my current OSR rules set. I think it should be easily portable though. This is very much a rough cut, so I'm looking for some input about point cost, complexity, blah blah.

So, to start, here's how spellcasting works in BH2E:

A Spellcaster can spend an Action on their turn to cast a spell or prayer from memory. Once the effects of the spell have been resolved, the Spellcaster should make an Attribute Test - adding the spell’s or prayer’s level to the roll. If they have already cast the spell this session, the Attribute Test is made with Disadvantage. If they fail, the spell or prayer is no longer memorised. (BH2E pg 15)

There's no real penalty to trying to cast something a second time other than losing the memorization for that day. Casters have memorized spells equal to their level, and can't memorize a spell of a level higher than their level. So slots are a little more restrictive than 5E because you can't as easily recast, especially more than twice. Here's an example BH2E spell:

Magic Missile: A faraway or distant target takes 1d6 damage for each of the spellcasters levels. (Level 1 spell)

So, back to freeform casting. I wanted this to be more restrictive and less efficient than memorized (formulaic hereafter) spells. It's not supposed to replace formulaic spells, just add a layer of creative possibility. It certainly could replace formulaic casting, but I'd probably monkey around with the numbers a little. Basically, this is a points for effect system (we're going to call the points mana, but I'd prefer a different word). Keep in mind that BH2E is a roll-under game, so plusses to the roll are bad, and minuses to the roll are good. I didn't want this to be able to do everything that formulaic spells do, so there are a limited number of things you can do. You add up the points and then subtract any benefits to determine the overall mod for the casting roll. Point costs are in parentheses.

Costs
1. Damage: d4(1), d6(2), 2d4 (3) 2d6(4)

2 Effect: (2) pick one of the following conditions:
  • Weakened - All Attribute Tests are rolled with Disadvantage.
  • Distracted - A Character cannot perform any Actions, but may still Move normally.
  • Stuck - A Character cannot Move, but they may take Actions as per normal.
  • Paralysed - A Character cannot Move or take any Action
3. Range: Touch (-1), Close (0), Nearby (1), Far Away (2), Distant (3)

4. Area/Creatures Affected: one (0), 2 or 10x10 (2), 3 or 30x30 (3)

5. Illusory Effects: 1 Sense (1), 2 Senses (3), All Senses (4)

Benefits

1. Component Use (benefit for >5 mana/5-9 mana/10+ mana)
  • Rare Components (cost 2d8x5 Coin Ud6) (-1/-1/na)
  • Exotic Components (cost 4d8x10 Coin Ud6) (-2/-1/-1)
2. Preparation Time 5 minutes (-1), 1/2 Hour (-2), 1 hour (-2)

3. HP Expenditure: 2HP per (-1) max (-3)

4. Caster Level: -1 per level

5. Environmental Effects (high magic zone etc): GM Discretion good or bad

Process: total up the points and make an attribute roll. Success means you get the spell, failure means you take a level of exhaustion (6 levels and you die, so it's not a minor inconvenience). If the caster has any levels of exhaustion already, make the roll at disadvantage. A critical failure means 2 levels of exhaustion and a minute spent unconsious. Spells cast with a range of touch have an additional downside in that a failure to cast will also get you smacked in the noggin by the target (the GM doesn't roll in BH2E)

So, about components, there's no need to track specific components, just roll the Usage Die and take the bennie. The cost in coins is a price that actually means something in game terms, as does the fact that it takes up an encumbrance slot. I would encourage players to get creative with their descriptions here, but I don't want that detail at the character sheet level. So what does this system actually let a mage do?

Example 1: Force Bolt d6 damage (2) at a single nearby target (1) means a roll at -3 (compare to Magic Missle above)

Example 2: Fire Ball (Lite) 2d6 damage (4) affecting 3 creatures (3) up to Far Away Range (2) means a roll at -9. This is where you need levels and/or components

I feel like it's at least close to balanced compared to formulaic spells. Less effect but a lot more flex, and with significant downsides. I'm not sure how high the scales should go above what written. This is supposed to me more like cantrips that level rather than a complete replacement casting system.

Thoughts? Critique? Polite laughter? I'm ready for it all. :grin:
Now you just have to make formulaic spells extremely hard to find:devil:!
 
Now you just have to make formulaic spells extremely hard to find:devil:!
Yes and no. I was going to leave a shortish base set of formulaic spells as common, and then have the rest either discovered or researched. I like the idea that actually using components X and Y in play would help you discover a forumla that uses the same bits.
 
Yes and no. I was going to leave a shortish base set of formulaic spells as common, and then have the rest either discovered or researched. I like the idea that actually using components X and Y in play would help you discover a forumla that uses the same bits.
I like that idea of a base spell list and others you have to find research. Can make character creation easier. I'd still for the GM make the full spell list with the non-base spell list.

A short list makes components easier to manage. I always loved the idea of material spell components but my love has always been surpassed by ease of use, if only players loved the idea and tracked them closely. I still use materials spell components but have a "universal component" basically gems dust/bits with a clear gp cost per level...expect for high level spells and certain powerful ones...so just have a gp of gem dust box that gp is subtracted from. ...and yes I do at times make players roll if under duress to not take too much dust but better too much then not enough :smile:

I still have a slit of specific mundane spell components for dire circumstances when you run out of gem dust, one can look for that cave spider to cast a "climb" spell...those is where a cat familiar would come in very handy, to catch that spider for you :smile:

On mundane but specific components, I like the idea they help you imagine/discover a likes spell. Are you going to have a spell discovery/research sub-system? (I love those...can we talk spell books too :smile: )

On tracking mundane components, to give players incentive, how about the idea if you use the specific component instead of a universal one you get a bonus, like free spell points to power the spell then and there?

In the interest of full disclosure, I've always gravitated to playing spell casters in RPGs of any kind. I was the MU in OD&D way back and used a lot of out of the box thinking to survive those early levels. So my magic system design reflect that, but have really throttled back on complexity from my first ones in the 80s :smile: and had to learn ways to get the flavor and option without much work on the player end.
 
My initial thought on components was that they only mattered if there was an associated cost or rarity, and that they would be an aide to casting (bonuses or the removal of difficulty) rather than a requirement. The idea I'm currently toying with is to make formulaic spells prohibitively difficult to cast on the fly which engages the players in working with the list of aides, which includes components. I can see some space for narrative components without a real cost. If the player sources components that are especially apt for the sort of spells they cast I can see that perhaps being a part of a small bonus for evocative description, which bugs the shit out of some people, but I really like in a free form system.

If I were running this system I would also want a non-base list to work with so I don't have to make everything up myself, and also to provide templates spells the players want to research.

On the tactile side of things I may describe the freeform elements with actual named runes and then add some description to the research part so that the output there actually looks somewhat like a spell in a spell book - various ways that those runes get linked together into formulaic spells. I'm not sure exactly what this part will look like yet, or even if I'm actually going to do it, but I like the idea. A couple of good d100 random tables could provide the necessary additional detail for this bit, and those sound like a ton of fun to write.
 
.... I can see some space for narrative components without a real cost. If the player sources components that are especially apt for the sort of spells they cast I can see that perhaps being a part of a small bonus for evocative description, which bugs the shit out of some people, but I really like in a free form system.
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I personally ignore players who get bent out of shape by that, it is a entitlement/munchkin mentality. I tend to not play with such people as they seem to invariably whine. The whole point of giving a bonus is it is a reward for a player taking the time to do the extra book keeping.

I will say that material component tracking got ignored almost all the time in games I've played. The one DM I played under who was strict about it, I just came up with a standard operating procedure of buying a ton of the components then sequestering them about my person and the party so as to never lose them all through mishap.

So as practical matter, unless material components are a carrot, the never get tracked. The "gem dust" thing was the easiest way I could find to put some cost on spells. Granted my system doe snot use fire and forget. When a system is fire and forget I think you can drop material component entirely or even just say for the big ones they are consumed when you memorize the spell.


If I were running this system I would also want a non-base list to work with so I don't have to make everything up myself, and also to provide templates spells the players want to research.
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That is exactly what I would do. Take the complete spell list from the game you are using, then decide on which ones are generally known and all the others need to be discovered/researched. Perhaps, players can choose one non-standard one at start.

The player doesn't so much design the spell but discover/uncover one you have pre-made. Frankly any named spell in AD&D is ripe for this kind of treatment. With the free-form element that provides enough customization. One could also have "improved spells" that may be a level higher with a greater base effect or some such. Mechanically may not be much different than what free-form gives but players may like the flavor.

....

On the tactile side of things I may describe the freeform elements with actual named runes and then add some description to the research part so that the output there actually looks somewhat like a spell in a spell book - various ways that those runes get linked together into formulaic spells. I'm not sure exactly what this part will look like yet, or even if I'm actually going to do it, but I like the idea. A couple of good d100 random tables could provide the necessary additional detail for this bit, and those sound like a ton of fun to write.

Sounds cool that's a whole design system which can take some work, but well worth :smile: Having done this myself I did this to make sure spells progression was rationalized across levels.

For example, at one point I wanted to go very free form. So instead of having multiple fire damaging spells at different levels, made one 1st level spell "Fire." At it's base it functioned as a Magic Missile, and you spent spell points to add an area of effect for example to make it behave like Fireball. This made for some very short spell lists. But way too much complexity, even for me!, in practice.

Then I went to a different design philosophy. Grouping damage dealing spells into elemental groups,
(1) air, earth, fire and water for damage types; and
(2) into attack type: direct attack (LOS) single target (level 1), indirect (for example arching) single target (level 2), direct area of effect (e.g. fireball)(level 3), indirect area of effect (think artillery) (level 4 or 5), and animated attack (the fireball or ball lightening follows you :smile: )(level 5 or 6)...etc.

The spell level depends on (2) and you can just adjust range and damage with spell points, maybe saving throw.

On (1) I use this to provide tactical options, not just choice based on creature vulnerabilities. That relies a bit on other rules I have, but simply air magic does a lot of stun, poor against armor; earth magic great against armor but bit below average damage damage; fire magic is the "standard,"; water magic poor against armor and average damage but can knock down targets...where as the ice version can lower initiative. etc. in addition to effect like dosing flames, setting things on fire etc.

I did similar things with others areas of magic, be they control spells, illusions spells, alteration spells, conjuration, necromancy, etc. I mapped the effects and costs so the various effects progress with level and increase in power via spell points in a "smooth" and consistent way. All of this is behind the rules design, but it could easily be made into a PC spell creation system as that is exactly what I used it for.

Now for me, if going with the base spell list the direct single target fire attack spell (let's call it Fire Bolt) would be a base spell.
Now the indirect (can turn a corner, avoid a comrade...where Fire Bolt is like an arrow, fire into melee at your companions risk) single fire attack spell (Let's call it Xanther's Amazing Fire Bolt) would be something may have heard about, but would have to research/find. It being named after the first mage to come up with it. :smile:
Likewise, I'd make Fireball base, and the indirect area effect and animated fire attacks ones that need to be research/found...BUT as a GM I'd already have their effects stated up.
 
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