Fudging Dice Rolls

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zarion

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Guess we will just disagree.
In life, it's okay to do that.

I fucking hate steak, and bacon, and almost all meat, and seafood, and fish, and I tell my ten year old niece all the time that it smells like shit!

She disagrees and tells me fruit and vegetables taste like shit!

It's okay to disagree without hating one another!!!
 

AsenRG

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I guess if you’re not playing in his game then he’s not telling you anything.
He is telling me this on a forum. It just doesn't impact my gaming habits one bit:shade:!

Guess we will just disagree.
We can agree to that, for sure:thumbsup:.
And it wouldn't be the first time, and none of it is going to impact either your game, or the session I'm going to run in a couple of hours, so we're still going to have fun in our own, different ways:grin:!
 

AsenRG

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In life, it's okay to do that.

I fucking hate steak, and bacon, and almost all meat, and seafood, and fish, and I tell my ten year old niece all the time that it smells like shit!

She disagrees and tells me fruit and vegetables taste like shit!

It's okay to disagree without hating one another!!!
Your niece is wise:shade:!
 

KrakaJak

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Houserules! Which in a way, means you are using a different system...
My houserule for all games I'm running is GM's can fudge dice rolls whenever they deem fit (this is actually an explicit rule in many, if not most RPGs). My other houserule is GMs have to keep it a secret from players.
 
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AsenRG

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race4.jpg
 

Ralph Dula

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I gamed with a fellow for decades, unaware for most of them that he was a Killer DM. He’d confessed to me on two occasions that he ran combats that could never have occurred (in both cases they had monsters that couldn’t fit where they were found) that nearly led to TPKs. The second-to-last time he ever ran a game he admitted he’d just ignored our results to keep a fight going he felt was too easy for us.

In the years after we stopped gaming I finally got to read some of the adventures he’d run us through. Turns out he’d added new encounters, gave creatures resistances to our forms of attacks, and in general was responsible for all the things that led us to hate the systems he ran for us.

it was only this morning, after I soloed a scenario with a lot of “Save or suck it” moments, that I realized only once in our years of gaming did his NPCs not make such a save caused by us.

He wasn’t the only GM I’ve had like that over the decades, but it was a reminder why I always let the dice fall as they may, no matter the results.
 

AsenRG

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...that drivel again:skeleton:?

I gamed with a fellow for decades, unaware for most of them that he was a Killer DM. He’d confessed to me on two occasions that he ran combats that could never have occurred (in both cases they had monsters that couldn’t fit where they were found) that nearly led to TPKs. The second-to-last time he ever ran a game he admitted he’d just ignored our results to keep a fight going he felt was too easy for us.

In the years after we stopped gaming I finally got to read some of the adventures he’d run us through. Turns out he’d added new encounters, gave creatures resistances to our forms of attacks, and in general was responsible for all the things that led us to hate the systems he ran for us.

it was only this morning, after I soloed a scenario with a lot of “Save or suck it” moments, that I realized only once in our years of gaming did his NPCs not make such a save caused by us.

He wasn’t the only GM I’ve had like that over the decades, but it was a reminder why I always let the dice fall as they may, no matter the results.
And sorry, but that's one of the guys I'd say just suck at Refereeing:thumbsup:.
 

Glömmerska

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I don't fudge dice, but I also do all of my rolls completely out in the open, so it wouldn't really be possible anyways. In extreme circumstances, I may have major antagonists use abilities that let me fudge the dice in front of the players (the lich has luck magic!), but I always let them know that first in a trivial circumstance (the lich is REALLY good at poker!).

I also make an effort to not put my players in situations that come down to single die rolls, unless they've already really dug themselves into a grave.
 

Ralph Dula

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What if I had dice made of Fudge? I'm not sure where that leaves me...
I think they’d melt quickly from being handled and throw off the probability of their rolls, assuming you hadn’t loaded them with nuts to get the results you wanted already.
 

Fenris-77

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I think they’d melt quickly from being handled and throw off the probability of their rolls, assuming you hadn’t loaded them with nuts to get the results you wanted already.
Well now we need to talk about the relative densities and weights of fudge and various sorts of nuts as it applies to gaming the physics of randomization polyhedrons.
 

AsenRG

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What if I had dice made of Fudge? I'm not sure where that leaves me...
In my book, that leaves you with the guys that like Fudge and its proprietary dice (which aren't Fate dice, dammit:tongue:)!
Well now we need to talk about the relative densities and weights of fudge and various sorts of nuts as it applies to gaming the physics of randomization polyhedrons.
No doubt a topic worthy of its own thread:grin:!

I don't fudge dice, but I also do all of my rolls completely out in the open, so it wouldn't really be possible anyways. In extreme circumstances, I may have major antagonists use abilities that let me fudge the dice in front of the players (the lich has luck magic!), but I always let them know that first in a trivial circumstance (the lich is REALLY good at poker!).

I also make an effort to not put my players in situations that come down to single die rolls, unless they've already really dug themselves into a grave.
Welcome to the Pub:thumbsup:!
 

Acmegamer

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I gamed with a fellow for decades, unaware for most of them that he was a Killer DM. He’d confessed to me on two occasions that he ran combats that could never have occurred (in both cases they had monsters that couldn’t fit where they were found) that nearly led to TPKs. The second-to-last time he ever ran a game he admitted he’d just ignored our results to keep a fight going he felt was too easy for us.

In the years after we stopped gaming I finally got to read some of the adventures he’d run us through. Turns out he’d added new encounters, gave creatures resistances to our forms of attacks, and in general was responsible for all the things that led us to hate the systems he ran for us.

it was only this morning, after I soloed a scenario with a lot of “Save or suck it” moments, that I realized only once in our years of gaming did his NPCs not make such a save caused by us.

He wasn’t the only GM I’ve had like that over the decades, but it was a reminder why I always let the dice fall as they may, no matter the results.

As long you don't have a problem with GM creative changes and improvements. Personally I took every game module ( you folks call them Adventure Paths these days) and made it my own. I used it as outline/bullet form to then build upon and change to fit my game world. I wasn't about beating the players, that's silly. You as the GM can beat the players whenever you want, it's a terrible frame of mind to have as GM. You should never approach game mastering like that, it's not a challenge you hold all the power, leaving them the with only one power... to walk away and never play in your game.

Otherwise, yeah I never met a game module that I didn't happily take a pair of powered shears to. Modules are to help me jumpstart for my own ideas or to use a helping crutch in a pinch to help me get something going if I'm drawing a Martin Blank. :thumbsup:
 

TJS

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These videos always seem to be about D&D.

Which I think just proves the point - lots of people insist on playing D&D when they'd find a game that does the sort of thing they want much better, were they just willing to let go of D&D fandom.
 

Black Leaf

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These videos always seem to be about D&D.

Which I think just proves the point - lots of people insist on playing D&D when they'd find a game that does the sort of thing they want much better, were they just willing to let go of D&D fandom.
It partly stems from this whole idea that D&D is a toolkit. It can be, but so can most games. It isn't especially good as a generic system though, it's good at being D&D. (Well, apart from 4e which is good at not being D&D).
 

Ravenswing

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He wasn’t the only GM I’ve had like that over the decades, but it was a reminder why I always let the dice fall as they may, no matter the results.

Something my players have really appreciated over the years is my ability to accept walkovers. Sometimes the PCs just make all the right decisions and all the right rolls and all the right guesses, and my lovingly crafted scenarios get curbstomped, often hours early.

Accepting this is the price I cheerfully pay to keep the abiding trust of my players that I'm not going to nerf them out of wins.
 

AsenRG

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As long you don't have a problem with GM creative changes and improvements. Personally I took every game module ( you folks call them Adventure Paths these days) and made it my own. I used it as outline/bullet form to then build upon and change to fit my game world. I wasn't about beating the players, that's silly. You as the GM can beat the players whenever you want, it's a terrible frame of mind to have as GM. You should never approach game mastering like that, it's not a challenge you hold all the power, leaving them the with only one power... to walk away and never play in your game.

Otherwise, yeah I never met a game module that I didn't happily take a pair of powered shears to. Modules are to help me jumpstart for my own ideas or to use a helping crutch in a pinch to help me get something going if I'm drawing a Martin Blank. :thumbsup:
Yeah, I know what you mean, but RD is talking about someone who added the exact right immunities to counter what the party has access to...which is kinda different:thumbsup:!

These videos always seem to be about D&D.

Which I think just proves the point - lots of people insist on playing D&D when they'd find a game that does the sort of thing they want much better, were they just willing to let go of D&D fandom.
You know I agree...:grin:

"It's not even a choice, Clark! No choice at all! And your finger has almost pressed the correct button already...just do it:devil:!"
 

Acmegamer

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Yeah, I know what you mean, but RD is talking about someone who added the exact right immunities to counter what the party has access to...which is kinda different:thumbsup:! A AsenRG


The reason I asked that is just to be clear because I've often seen posts and have heard people actually mention how bent they get or how others have gotten all bent because a GM/DM didn't run the published adventure as written. This is a newer phenomimom that I've been only seeing in the last twenty years. Sure you might have seen the occasional outlier back in the day but I think it was an odd exception. Some sort of twist on the rules lawyer sort of player who actually was trying to "win" DnD and had either read through or played through the adventure module and was demanding it be run as written.

Now a days I see it enough to think it might be a lot more common, so I ask. Now it feels more akin to the Mercer effect where players have a rigid, narrow point of view as to what they expect and demand a game to be and run. They come across like you as a GM should be running your game campaign like an mmorpg. (shudder) Any deviation from what is written in the published adventure is a high crime and unacceptable.

This is not what game developers were expecting nor desiring when they make these adventure modules and games. Make them yours you'd read repeatedly over the decades from most. Yet, you will see threads with players and GMs raising hell over any deviation. Boggles the mind, so yeah I asked for clarification from him and didn't want to assume.
 

xanther

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I think may have fudged rolls twice in players favor (never against them), and still feel bad about it. Once was when had a new edition of the homebrew so that was kind of a playtest situation. The other was in D&D with the ye ole swingy d20 to prevent TPK even though they were playing wisely.

Otherwise no, never, for me it takes away the fun even when I am a player. I don't feel bad if it would result in a TPK as I volunteer plenty of info that a PC would know, such high danger situations are basically telegraphed.

In the past if it didn't provide too much meta information, always rolled in the open.

These days I have to because of the mechanics, since it is a count success system and a player can use one of their success for example to counter an opponents success. I guess the number of dice I'm rolling gives meta-knowledge but found them seeign the number low or higher than expected is kind of cool and after all they are already in the thick of it.

In short there is very little I roll secretly for, and if the mere calling for a roll gives something away (like a Perception check), I have all that info jotted down and roll secretly without asking (i.e. make the roll for them) and if it is something like find traps (like an active assertion) I roll half the dice secretly and let them roll the other half. Otherwise I ask players for a general description of how they are proceeding, caution gives them modifiers in their favor but slows them down which also subjects them to a greater potential for random encounters...more than happy to be clear on what the trade offs are and have a few stock "modus operandi" levels.


If one finds that fudging is needed more than once, then in my view the adventures are too hard/too easy if they are in the space where you think no fudging is required OR the game mechanics are too swingy. This is purely a personal call, some folks love very swingy mechanics, others next to none (like if you added 4d6 together).
 

AsenRG

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Yeah, I know what you mean, but RD is talking about someone who added the exact right immunities to counter what the party has access to...which is kinda different:thumbsup:! A AsenRG


The reason I asked that is just to be clear because I've often seen posts and have heard people actually mention how bent they get or how others have gotten all bent because a GM/DM didn't run the published adventure as written. This is a newer phenomimom that I've been only seeing in the last twenty years. Sure you might have seen the occasional outlier back in the day but I think it was an odd exception. Some sort of twist on the rules lawyer sort of player who actually was trying to "win" DnD and had either read through or played through the adventure module and was demanding it be run as written.

Now a days I see it enough to think it might be a lot more common, so I ask. Now it feels more akin to the Mercer effect where players have a rigid, narrow point of view as to what they expect and demand a game to be and run. They come across like you as a GM should be running your game campaign like an mmorpg. (shudder) Any deviation from what is written in the published adventure is a high crime and unacceptable.

This is not what game developers were expecting nor desiring when they make these adventure modules and games. Make them yours you'd read repeatedly over the decades from most. Yet, you will see threads with players and GMs raising hell over any deviation. Boggles the mind, so yeah I asked for clarification from him and didn't want to assume.
Yeah, I've seen those threads, too...and laughed at the OPs unmercifully:grin:!
But I've also seen those GMs that have all NPCs developing imminity to fire as soon as the party's mage learns Fireball. And the situation described by Ralph Dula Ralph Dula really sounds like the latter, not the former.
 

Ralph Dula

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Yeah, I've seen those threads, too...and laughed at the OPs unmercifully:grin:!
But I've also seen those GMs that have all NPCs developing imminity to fire as soon as the party's mage learns Fireball. And the situation described by Ralph Dula Ralph Dula really sounds like the latter, not the former.

He seemed to have a formula of:

1. No Spell Resistance? It has it now!
2. You need a magic weapon to damage it. You have those? I meant magic weapon made of [insert substance PCs don’t have]
3. NPCs fail a save? Impossible!
 

TJS

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Honestly, as a GM if there is ever a situation where I go "well that shouldn't have been able to happen", then I made a mistake in calling for a roll to begin with.
Yes. And if that happens then I'll say so and overule the dice. I won't try to hide the roll and then pretend that it was a different number then what it really rolled.
 

EmperorNorton

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Yeah, I know the feeling:thumbsup:. Twenty years ago, I hadn't run three campaigns yet, I think - but other people at the Pub were, back then, marking their first, or even second, decade of playing RPGs (and some might have been marking the quarter century:shade:)!
I always think it is interesting because I've been playing for 30ish years now, but I'm still one of the younger people on the Pub. Like, about the only way for people to have been playing longer than me is to just be older than me :B. (I started playing TTRPGs when I was like 6ish).
 

Black Leaf

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Yes. And if that happens then I'll say so and overule the dice. I won't try to hide the roll and then pretend that it was a different number then what it really rolled.
I think some of this comes from the reluctance of GMs to hold their hands up and say "I messed up".

I'm sure your experience is the same as mine. Players are actually very tolerant of me doing so, even if I only feel the need very rarely these days.
 

Glömmerska

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I think some of this comes from the reluctance of GMs to hold their hands up and say "I messed up".

This is definitely something that shows the value of a good GM or player. Someone who is willing to admit "Hey guys, I messed up, this dragon is definitely going to kill you and I didn't give you nearly enough of a warning" shows a willingness to swallow your pride in the name of making the game more fun.

Of course, this is most GM's nightmare scenario, since you have to break all tension and story momentum to make these statements. Have to deliberately bring the players people out of the game to set it back on track.

Gently correcting a story (and maybe needing to fudge) is generally preferable to halting the game. There are some ways to redirect or lead players in ways you know won't break the game, this is just good GMing, but it's too late to nudge the story when actually throwing down with the Scary Antagonist. At this point, the fudging would be heavy handed and obvious, and this is usually what we think of when we say "fudge". Doing things like making the next chest conveniently have a healing potion is altering the game just as much, but there is something different about scrawling something in your own notes vs. "lying" about a physical object.

If you can't believe in the divine decrees of the dice, then why use them as arbiters at all? Takes us too close to reminding us that the rules are all made up.
 

AsenRG

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I always think it is interesting because I've been playing for 30ish years now, but I'm still one of the younger people on the Pub. Like, about the only way for people to have been playing longer than me is to just be older than me :B. (I started playing TTRPGs when I was like 6ish).
Yeah, I started when I was 18, and I think we're roughly the same age...:grin:
OTOH, it's quite easy to have played more than me, but not for local players: the 90ies are the first time someone in my country might have played a game (unless he was living abroad in the 80ies, or managed to land in a game in 1989, I guess:shade:).

This is definitely something that shows the value of a good GM or player. Someone who is willing to admit "Hey guys, I messed up, this dragon is definitely going to kill you and I didn't give you nearly enough of a warning" shows a willingness to swallow your pride in the name of making the game more fun.
Yup:thumbsup:.

Of course, this is most GM's nightmare scenario, since you have to break all tension and story momentum to make these statements. Have to deliberately bring the players people out of the game to set it back on track.

Gently correcting a story (and maybe needing to fudge) is generally preferable to halting the game. There are some ways to redirect or lead players in ways you know won't break the game, this is just good GMing, but it's too late to nudge the story when actually throwing down with the Scary Antagonist. At this point, the fudging would be heavy handed and obvious, and this is usually what we think of when we say "fudge". Doing things like making the next chest conveniently have a healing potion is altering the game just as much, but there is something different about scrawling something in your own notes vs. "lying" about a physical object.

If you can't believe in the divine decrees of the dice, then why use them as arbiters at all? Takes us too close to reminding us that the rules are all made up.
I don't really imagine why I'd need to add a healing potion, to be honest. If they are low on HP - or, more likely, have someone seriously hurt, which is more likely in my kind of systems...well, ever heard of medevac, guys:devil:?
And if they choose to press up - well, it's a choice and all choices do have consequences:skeleton:.
 
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