Gaelic

Anyone know of a game or textbook that properly anglicizes Gaelic as opposed to just using English letters to represent completely different consonant and vowel forms?
TBH I am not sure what you mean. We use the latin alphabet for Irish (Gaeilge) but the letters have different pronunciations in Irish so they represent it perfectly. Just like French also uses the latin alphabet.

It would be a bit strange to have a book written in Irish but written with English transliterations.
Edit:
PS Also there are at least four major regional variations in pronunciations of Irish so it is not as if there is a single correct way.
 
TBH I am not sure what you mean. We use the latin alphabet for Irish (Gaeilge) but the letters have different pronunciations in Irish so they represent it perfectly. Just like French also uses the latin alphabet.

It would be a bit strange to have a book written in Irish but written with English transliterations.
I'm guessing he means written phonetically?

I have some old letters from my southern relatives from the 1800s. They are unintelligible as written but if you read it aloud you hear what they are saying with the local accent. It's a surreal experience.
 
Misread title. Was hoping for tasty new recipes. Very disappointed.

Same!

Or it was a new RPG centred around Vampires. Probably PbtA no doubt. Fuckin' 'ell, now I'm thinking it actually exists.
 
You are talking about phonemic drift amidst a script. Latin alphabetic script is one of the easiest current examples. There's no real solution to anglicization because even that supposed phonemic standard changes over time (old to current) and space (regional accents) both within the target language and the "translating" anglicization.

That's why Linguists came up with the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). If you look for any dictionary work (surprisingly a lot of Wikipedia entries use IPA, which is one of the few things I encourage the use of Wikipedia) look for the IPA to get a closer phonemic approximation. Remember though that an acceptable variation around the IPA exists within a language.*

*(FYI, Phonemes are a grouping of phonetics that approximate to an acceptable version of a sound in the language. This does mean variance is in-built in a phoneme. And while IPA is all currently known human phonetics isolated to an alphabet, giving an excellent 'neutral' (broadly accepted) pronunciation, the language itself must still be looked at phonemically to understand its acceptable range of variance. :thumbsup: ... And yes, I am a 0 SAN cultist. :shade::coffee:)
 
Wouldn't be the first game written entirely using IPA, so why not?

Ahem...

638798b8d16a456693400e8f_0652682034028-glamor-front-2022-11-28t18-13-20-iphone-7-quality-90-1-32-2-user-5d7652c1db2c4b51d4c666ca-ui4o-093356.jpg

Plus, better yet, I just drank one! In fucking California even! ::honkhonk:
 
You are talking about phonemic drift amidst a script. Latin alphabetic script is one of the easiest current examples. There's no real solution to anglicization because even that supposed phonemic standard changes over time (old to current) and space (regional accents) both within the target language and the "translating" anglicization.

That's why Linguists came up with the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). If you look for any dictionary work (surprisingly a lot of Wikipedia entries use IPA, which is one of the few things I encourage the use of Wikipedia) look for the IPA to get a closer phonemic approximation. Remember though that an acceptable variation around the IPA exists within a language.*

*(FYI, Phonemes are a grouping of phonetics that approximate to an acceptable version of a sound in the language. This does mean variance is in-built in a phoneme. And while IPA is all currently known human phonetics isolated to an alphabet, giving an excellent 'neutral' (broadly accepted) pronunciation, the language itself must still be looked at phonemically to understand its acceptable range of variance. :thumbsup: ... And yes, I am a 0 SAN cultist. :shade::coffee:)
I just get pissy whenever I read a Mythic Britain book. :devil: Some symbols are the same, some are "WTF" different and some are "LOL, go fuck yourself" different. I'd rather slog through an Abjad or Abugida language than one using the same alphabet with random switcheroos.

It would be like having a Mythic Greece supplement where all the Greek words are in the Ancient Greek alphabet, that would actually be easier to decipher the pronounciation I think.
 
I just get pissy whenever I read a Mythic Britain book. :devil: Some symbols are the same, some are "WTF" different and some are "LOL, go fuck yourself" different. I'd rather slog through an Abjad or Abugida language than one using the same alphabet with random switcheroos.

It would be like having a Mythic Greece supplement where all the Greek words are in the Ancient Greek alphabet, that would actually be easier to decipher the pronounciation I think.

I understand. The elves do it to tick off the muggles. :clown: But the real frustration is because you have to unlearn one batch of phonemes to an alphabetic symbol and replace them with another -- so close yet so far. At least in another script you can imagine it is much further to learn, and thus easier to excuse your struggle.

If you want to feel better, try Slavic or Hungarian phonemes! :thumbsup: It'll make the Celtic phonemes feel closer to home. :sun::gooselove: (No. But it's still fun.)
 
I just get pissy whenever I read a Mythic Britain book. :devil: Some symbols are the same, some are "WTF" different and some are "LOL, go fuck yourself" different. I'd rather slog through an Abjad or Abugida language than one using the same alphabet with random switcheroos.

It would be like having a Mythic Greece supplement where all the Greek words are in the Ancient Greek alphabet, that would actually be easier to decipher the pronounciation I think.
I have not read that book but part of the issue may be that English is very acquisitive and so some words have "traditional spellings" in English whereas some may use native spellings. There is also the fact that standardised spelling for Irish changed in 1948 and many popular English-language history books for many years would have missed that. Also there is modern/middle/old Irish, just like there is for English so there are choices to be made about historical/mythical names for places and people. Then you have the divergence between Scots Gaelic and Irish and the fact that Welsh is a distinct language. It is complex.

I'd finally suggest that English authors (if that is who wrote this, just going by TDM brand) do not have the best track record of caring for/understanding/being fully acquainted with Gaelic languages and so it is even more likely that there are inconsistencies, especially as this is a RPG text and not an academic study.
 
surprisingly a lot of Wikipedia entries use IPA, which is one of the few things I encourage the use of Wikipedia
I've actually gotten so used to it that I'm almost angry when an entry for a non-English place name or personal name I'm looking up doesn't include it.
 
Cool. San Francisco used to be a nice place when I was in college. But you should also visit Southern California sometime.

I'm a SoCal'er, well mostly. I'm only about an hour north-east of LA, in that area where everyone thinks all the Breaking Bad style meth labs are...

...I mean, they might be, but I haven't seen them...probably because I don't use meth. :grin:
 
Urg, I hate IPA. I find it about as impenetrable as transliterated Celtic orthography.
IPA should be taught to everyone in primary school, and any English speaker who ever attempts to write out anything phonetically without using the IPA should have their fingers broken with their keyboard. I've never understood how anyone thinks that their own idiosyncratic impression of the default pronounciation of "oo" is going to help someone who doesn't already know the pronunciation their trying to describe.
 
IPA should be taught to everyone in primary school, and any English speaker who ever attempts to write out anything phonetically without using the IPA should have their fingers broken with their keyboard. I've never understood how anyone thinks that their own idiosyncratic impression of the default pronounciation of "oo" is going to help someone who doesn't already know the pronunciation their trying to describe.

Yeah, well, kinda tough when the vast majority of people don't use IPA keyboards, huh?
 
Yeah, well, kinda tough when the vast majority of people don't use IPA keyboards, huh?

Don't worry, it's hard to find even keyboard stickers for IPA. That and my old textbooks IPA are now out of date due to retired letters (e.g. the clicks) and those now converted into diacritics and prosodic marks. :grin: Yay, with that and the weakening of PEMDAS due to entropy, we shall forever be clawing our way back to square one to stave off intellectual oblivion! :heart: The march of time shall turn all our castles to dust.

:brokenheart: The 0 SAN cultist feels your pain! :gooselove: But goose still loves you. ( :madgoose:Well, more likely still hates us all. But its constancy is like an axis mundi in the greater darkness.)
 
It's a strong IPA infused with grapefruit juice. So it's like licking the Las Vegas Comeback Special leather suit after the show.

Sounds interesting. Although, I have to admit I was just hoping someone would send me some free beers.
 
Sounds interesting. Although, I have to admit I was just hoping someone would send me some free beers.

Wait, that's an option!?!

I beeseech thee, oh mighty Beer Gods! Sendeth much IPA goodness my way, so I may partake in your glory. Hops in thy name! Amen!
 
Anyone know of a game or textbook that properly anglicizes Gaelic as opposed to just using English letters to represent completely different consonant and vowel forms?

What are these "English letters" of which you speak? English is written using the Latin alphabet, an alphabet originated for a different language, and eccentrically warped to represent the range of English sounds in an entertainingly inconsistent fashion. Though bough cough. Bow to the man with a bow in his hair, or you'll start a row unless you row back your actions.

Gaelic is represented using the same alphabet but is rather more consistent in how those letters are used to represent sounds.
 
Do you want Irish or Scottish Gaelic?

It can be hard to translate English directly at times, as we have some different ways of saying stuff. For example, in English, we say, "I'm hungry." But in Irish, it's technically "The hunger is on me". Weird, eh? :smile:

I must confess I can no longer speak Irish (or Gaeilge) I used to be able to when I was in school. But I'm sure there are some Irish apps out there, as people are desperate not to let it die out. I can ask around if you want.
 
How appropriate, since the most famous Gaelic bar is Tigh Krugers!

Kruger.jpg

I'm going to tie in a post from Lofgeornost Lofgeornost in answering this.

For anybody who finds this stuff confusing the living Celtic languages are Gaelic, Welsh and Breton. All evolved from the original Celtic language. Gaelic separated off in around the 5th century BC and Welsh and Breton separated from each other around 10th century AD. There used to be far more Celtic languages in Spain and France before Roman expansion.

Gaelic has several dialects, the ones located on Ireland being called Irish or Irish Gaelic and the ones on Scotland being called Scottish Gaelic or Gallic. They're mutually comprehensible so it's still one language.

The non-English words in Mythic Britain are in the majority Gaelic I think, although there is plenty of Welsh.

There is in fact a way of writing Gaelic fully where the letters have values closer to their English version. It was created in the 1900s. I can use it, but very few people have learned it and the number of books in it is quite small. It petered out in the 40s.

If you want to know what is going on in Gaelic the main principles are actually operating already in English (they both got it from Koine Greek via Latin).

If you think of English th, this is not a t and then a h, but a separate sound "similar" to t but rather than totally stopping the air its produced with friction.
Same with how ph is not p+h, but simply f.
If we go to Traveller and other fantasy and scifi spellings you often see ZH, e.g. Zhodani in Traveller. Most English speakers intuit this to be the z sound in "azure". So not z, but a frictional sound closely related to it.

English doesn't have many of these stop/fricitive pairs, so it doesn't make use of this "h" much. It used to have more, which is why you have "gh" in words like "light, through, plough".

Gaelic just has a fricitive twin for every one of its consonants, so you get bh, mh, gh, dh, th, ch, fh, ph.
So for example the name "Niamh" is not "Neev", in my experience even tourists with no experience with the language can tell the difference between "mh" and "v" when I say the name.

If you want a quick way to read Gaelic in any letter + h combo I would pretend any h is not there unless it's a combo you know from English (th, ph) and whenever you see a pair of vowels, e.g. io, ea, just use the second one. This will get you pretty close to Medieval Gaelic pronunciation. Other features like the accent mark being used for vowel length (like Ancient Greek and Latin) and not stress (like Spanish) require training and are best to just ignore.

I will say if I were writing an RPG, I would just translate the terms within the main text and have a glossary at the back of the original Gaelic for those interested.

Ireland in the 15th-16th Century, focusing on the interaction between the Gaelic and English parts of the island.
If it's useful one of the ways the language itself would show up is that it's very hard for people who've learned the language to pronounce the word for "mouse", they'll say the word for "lake" instead. The phrase "his flock" is very very difficult to say for a non-native. So consider these as Shibboleths for spies.
In the other direction Gaelic speakers had a very hard time saying English "Wh", such as "Why, What, When", saying "Fy, Fat, Fen".
In-character Gaelic makes less use of metaphor than English and has no real curse words. The Bardic class are difficult for others to understand, purposefully speaking an older form of the language for class distinction, which in-game could be replicated as somebody speaking Elizabethan or even Chaucerian English constantly.
 
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..wait, you guys intuited Zhodani to be pronounced like the z in azure:shock:? I'd always assumed it to be akin to the Portuguese j*, or like the zho in pinyin. But for simplicity I default to the former and not the latter:grin:!

*Distinctly harder than the French j, and totally unlike the way j is pronounced in Spanish.
 
wait, you guys intuited Zhodani to be pronounced like the z in azure:shock:? I'd always assumed it to be akin to the Portuguese j*
That's a good point actually. Some dialects of English do use the Portuguese j, /ʒ/, in azure, but not all do.
The s in "Vision" is probably a better example.
 
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