Gaelic

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CRKrueger said:
Anyone know of a game or textbook that properly anglicizes Gaelic as opposed to just using English letters to represent completely different consonant and vowel forms?
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TBH I am not sure what you mean. We use the latin alphabet for Irish (Gaeilge) but the letters have different pronunciations in Irish so they represent it perfectly. Just like French also uses the latin alphabet.

It would be a bit strange to have a book written in Irish but written with English transliterations.
Edit:
PS Also there are at least four major regional variations in pronunciations of Irish so it is not as if there is a single correct way.
 
robb said:
TBH I am not sure what you mean. We use the latin alphabet for Irish (Gaeilge) but the letters have different pronunciations in Irish so they represent it perfectly. Just like French also uses the latin alphabet.

It would be a bit strange to have a book written in Irish but written with English transliterations.
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I'm guessing he means written phonetically?

I have some old letters from my southern relatives from the 1800s. They are unintelligible as written but if you read it aloud you hear what they are saying with the local accent. It's a surreal experience.
 
Dumarest said:
Misread title. Was hoping for tasty new recipes. Very disappointed.
​
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Same!

Or it was a new RPG centred around Vampires. Probably PbtA no doubt. Fuckin' 'ell, now I'm thinking it actually exists.
 
You are talking about phonemic drift amidst a script. Latin alphabetic script is one of the easiest current examples. There's no real solution to anglicization because even that supposed phonemic standard changes over time (old to current) and space (regional accents) both within the target language and the "translating" anglicization.

That's why Linguists came up with the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). If you look for any dictionary work (surprisingly a lot of Wikipedia entries use IPA, which is one of the few things I encourage the use of Wikipedia) look for the IPA to get a closer phonemic approximation. Remember though that an acceptable variation around the IPA exists within a language.*

*(FYI, Phonemes are a grouping of phonetics that approximate to an acceptable version of a sound in the language. This does mean variance is in-built in a phoneme. And while IPA is all currently known human phonetics isolated to an alphabet, giving an excellent 'neutral' (broadly accepted) pronunciation, the language itself must still be looked at phonemically to understand its acceptable range of variance. :thumbsup: ... And yes, I am a 0 SAN cultist. :shade::coffee:)
 
Dumarest said:
Wouldn't be the first game written entirely using IPA, so why not?
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Ahem...

638798b8d16a456693400e8f_0652682034028-glamor-front-2022-11-28t18-13-20-iphone-7-quality-90-1-32-2-user-5d7652c1db2c4b51d4c666ca-ui4o-093356.jpg

Plus, better yet, I just drank one! In fucking California even! ::honkhonk:
 
opaopajr said:
You are talking about phonemic drift amidst a script. Latin alphabetic script is one of the easiest current examples. There's no real solution to anglicization because even that supposed phonemic standard changes over time (old to current) and space (regional accents) both within the target language and the "translating" anglicization.

That's why Linguists came up with the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). If you look for any dictionary work (surprisingly a lot of Wikipedia entries use IPA, which is one of the few things I encourage the use of Wikipedia) look for the IPA to get a closer phonemic approximation. Remember though that an acceptable variation around the IPA exists within a language.*

*(FYI, Phonemes are a grouping of phonetics that approximate to an acceptable version of a sound in the language. This does mean variance is in-built in a phoneme. And while IPA is all currently known human phonetics isolated to an alphabet, giving an excellent 'neutral' (broadly accepted) pronunciation, the language itself must still be looked at phonemically to understand its acceptable range of variance. :thumbsup: ... And yes, I am a 0 SAN cultist. :shade::coffee:)
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I just get pissy whenever I read a Mythic Britain book. :devil: Some symbols are the same, some are "WTF" different and some are "LOL, go fuck yourself" different. I'd rather slog through an Abjad or Abugida language than one using the same alphabet with random switcheroos.

It would be like having a Mythic Greece supplement where all the Greek words are in the Ancient Greek alphabet, that would actually be easier to decipher the pronounciation I think.
 
CRKrueger said:
I just get pissy whenever I read a Mythic Britain book. :devil: Some symbols are the same, some are "WTF" different and some are "LOL, go fuck yourself" different. I'd rather slog through an Abjad or Abugida language than one using the same alphabet with random switcheroos.

It would be like having a Mythic Greece supplement where all the Greek words are in the Ancient Greek alphabet, that would actually be easier to decipher the pronounciation I think.
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I understand. The elves do it to tick off the muggles. :clown: But the real frustration is because you have to unlearn one batch of phonemes to an alphabetic symbol and replace them with another -- so close yet so far. At least in another script you can imagine it is much further to learn, and thus easier to excuse your struggle.

If you want to feel better, try Slavic or Hungarian phonemes! :thumbsup: It'll make the Celtic phonemes feel closer to home. :sun::gooselove: (No. But it's still fun.)
 
CRKrueger said:
I just get pissy whenever I read a Mythic Britain book. :devil: Some symbols are the same, some are "WTF" different and some are "LOL, go fuck yourself" different. I'd rather slog through an Abjad or Abugida language than one using the same alphabet with random switcheroos.

It would be like having a Mythic Greece supplement where all the Greek words are in the Ancient Greek alphabet, that would actually be easier to decipher the pronounciation I think.
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I have not read that book but part of the issue may be that English is very acquisitive and so some words have "traditional spellings" in English whereas some may use native spellings. There is also the fact that standardised spelling for Irish changed in 1948 and many popular English-language history books for many years would have missed that. Also there is modern/middle/old Irish, just like there is for English so there are choices to be made about historical/mythical names for places and people. Then you have the divergence between Scots Gaelic and Irish and the fact that Welsh is a distinct language. It is complex.

I'd finally suggest that English authors (if that is who wrote this, just going by TDM brand) do not have the best track record of caring for/understanding/being fully acquainted with Gaelic languages and so it is even more likely that there are inconsistencies, especially as this is a RPG text and not an academic study.
 
opaopajr said:
surprisingly a lot of Wikipedia entries use IPA, which is one of the few things I encourage the use of Wikipedia
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I've actually gotten so used to it that I'm almost angry when an entry for a non-English place name or personal name I'm looking up doesn't include it.
 
Dumarest said:
Cool. San Francisco used to be a nice place when I was in college. But you should also visit Southern California sometime.
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I'm a SoCal'er, well mostly. I'm only about an hour north-east of LA, in that area where everyone thinks all the Breaking Bad style meth labs are...

...I mean, they might be, but I haven't seen them...probably because I don't use meth. :grin:
 
Ravenswing said:
Urg, I hate IPA. I find it about as impenetrable as transliterated Celtic orthography.
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IPA should be taught to everyone in primary school, and any English speaker who ever attempts to write out anything phonetically without using the IPA should have their fingers broken with their keyboard. I've never understood how anyone thinks that their own idiosyncratic impression of the default pronounciation of "oo" is going to help someone who doesn't already know the pronunciation their trying to describe.
 
SmallbutVicious said:
IPA should be taught to everyone in primary school, and any English speaker who ever attempts to write out anything phonetically without using the IPA should have their fingers broken with their keyboard. I've never understood how anyone thinks that their own idiosyncratic impression of the default pronounciation of "oo" is going to help someone who doesn't already know the pronunciation their trying to describe.
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Yeah, well, kinda tough when the vast majority of people don't use IPA keyboards, huh?
 
Ravenswing said:
Yeah, well, kinda tough when the vast majority of people don't use IPA keyboards, huh?
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Don't worry, it's hard to find even keyboard stickers for IPA. That and my old textbooks IPA are now out of date due to retired letters (e.g. the clicks) and those now converted into diacritics and prosodic marks. :grin: Yay, with that and the weakening of PEMDAS due to entropy, we shall forever be clawing our way back to square one to stave off intellectual oblivion! :heart: The march of time shall turn all our castles to dust.

:brokenheart: The 0 SAN cultist feels your pain! :gooselove: But goose still loves you. ( :madgoose:Well, more likely still hates us all. But its constancy is like an axis mundi in the greater darkness.)
 
JAMUMU said:
It's a strong IPA infused with grapefruit juice. So it's like licking the Las Vegas Comeback Special leather suit after the show.
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Sounds interesting. Although, I have to admit I was just hoping someone would send me some free beers.
 
The Mad Hatter said:
Sounds interesting. Although, I have to admit I was just hoping someone would send me some free beers.
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Wait, that's an option!?!

I beeseech thee, oh mighty Beer Gods! Sendeth much IPA goodness my way, so I may partake in your glory. Hops in thy name! Amen!
 
CRKrueger said:
Anyone know of a game or textbook that properly anglicizes Gaelic as opposed to just using English letters to represent completely different consonant and vowel forms?
Click to expand...

What are these "English letters" of which you speak? English is written using the Latin alphabet, an alphabet originated for a different language, and eccentrically warped to represent the range of English sounds in an entertainingly inconsistent fashion. Though bough cough. Bow to the man with a bow in his hair, or you'll start a row unless you row back your actions.

Gaelic is represented using the same alphabet but is rather more consistent in how those letters are used to represent sounds.
 
Do you want Irish or Scottish Gaelic?

It can be hard to translate English directly at times, as we have some different ways of saying stuff. For example, in English, we say, "I'm hungry." But in Irish, it's technically "The hunger is on me". Weird, eh? :smile:

I must confess I can no longer speak Irish (or Gaeilge) I used to be able to when I was in school. But I'm sure there are some Irish apps out there, as people are desperate not to let it die out. I can ask around if you want.
 
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