Game of Thrones: Who lives, who dies? [SPOILERS]

dokel

Legendary Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
382
Reaction score
635
I think that was true until they went off-book. Since then it seems characters have plot immunity. It's fine, but no longer surprising.
Yeah plus an extra helping of plot immunity for fan favourites it seems. More people really should have died in the zombie apocalypse. To me it felt like it's had this long, long build up and then it started out looking like it was going to be an absolute slaughter and then, in the end, it wasn't really that bad. Mostly everyone we give a shit about survived. They better all die next week! That's all I'm saying.

We need a decent twist over the next couple of weeks - Tyrion turning out to be a Targaryen (as per fan theories) and ending up on the Iron Throne after Daenerys kills Jon and is then assassinated by Arya. Tyrion then marries Sansa and makes Arya his Hand.
 

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
7,059
Reaction score
12,351
Hadn't heard that fan theory (honestly just kinda avoided the fan community overall), but it would be interesting. I feel like though, since last season, they've been wrapping stuff up too nicely (predictably). Circe gets her multitude revenges, Ironborn unich gets his redemption, Sansa teams up with her sister and take out Ferris Bueler's best friend, because the writers don't have any further use for him, etc. etc. Which is why I drearily suspect John "sad puppydog eyes"and Elric's sister are going to get married, unite the kingdoms, usher in a new age of prosperity, blahblahblah. What I desperately want is some pull the rug out from under you event before the end. I can think of a million ways this could be done (OK maybe half a million now that the Night King is dead), but I just want a taste of what made GoT so great in the beginning.

Speaking of the Night King, my GF keeps calling him the Ice King, which makes me think of Adventure Time. And then I'm picturing that old Wizard guy in GoT. Many imaginary lolz were had.

His end felt unsatisfying. Don't get me wrong, it was cool seeing Arya Deathmaster Snikch his ass at the last second. But with every other character in the series we got this in-depth character study (even goddamn Hodor, who spent the early seasons annoying the crap out of me and now is the only character to get me to tears), and NK was just left this two-dimensional Sauron. They could has spent just one episode giving him a backstory, a motivation. I like comicbook films, so I'm content with pretty cartoony villains, but just something besides the vaudeville snidley whiplash-equivalent of an Overlord.
 
Last edited:

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
7,059
Reaction score
12,351
I updated the thread title so we don't have to do those spoiler boxes. I suspect anyone not up to date isn't going to be taking part in this thread anyways.
 

dokel

Legendary Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
382
Reaction score
635
Hadn't heard that fan theory (honestly just kinda avoided the fan community overall), but it would be interesting. I feel like though, since last season, they've been wrapping stuff up too nicely (predictably). Circe gets her multitude revenges, Ironborn unich gets his redemption, Sansa teams up with her sister and take out Ferris Bueler's best friend, because the writers don't have any further use for him, etc. etc. Which is why I drearily suspect John "sad puppydog eyes"and Elric's sister are going to get married, unite the kingdoms, usher in a new age of prosperity, blahblahblah. What I desperately want is some pull the rug out from under you event before the end. I can think of a million ways this could be done (OK maybe half a million now that the Night King is dead), but I just want a taste of what made GoT so great in the beginning.

Speaking of the Night King, my GF keeps calling him the Ice King, which makes me think of Adventure Time. And then I'm picturing that old Wizard guy in GoT. Many imaginary lolz were had.

His end felt unsatisfying. Don't get me wrong, it was cool seeing Arya Deathmaster Snikch his ass at the last second. But with every other character in the series we got this in-depth character study (even goddamn Hodor, who spent the early seasons annoying the crap out of me and now is the only character to get me to tears), and NK was just left this two-dimensional Sauron. They could has spent just one episode giving him a backstory, a motivation. I like comicbook films, so I'm content with pretty cartoony villains, but just something besides the vaudeville snidley whiplash-equivalent of an Overlord.
I agree that the plotting has gotten a lot more predictable of late and that the show could really use another Red Wedding level moment of WTF? or two.

I kind of get why the Night King isn't really developed as a character - I think it helps to maintain his otherness (in a similar way to how you never get Dracula's pov in the novel). In many ways he's really just a plot device - the means to get all of these characters working together against a common foe. What they need to do now is explore how that alliance holds up now that the immediate threat has passed. Having it fall apart in dramatically interesting ways should really be what drives the story from this point imo. If it's just gonna be that everyone stays pals and they all kick Cersei's ass (with a couple of token deaths) then that's not going to be much of an ending. I actually still have faith that it won't play out like that. I guess we'll see.
 

Stevethulhu

Lord of the Pies
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,419
Reaction score
1,674
I agree that the plotting has gotten a lot more predictable of late and that the show could really use another Red Wedding level moment of WTF? or two.

I kind of get why the Night King isn't really developed as a character - I think it helps to maintain his otherness (in a similar way to how you never get Dracula's pov in the novel). In many ways he's really just a plot device - the means to get all of these characters working together against a common foe. What they need to do now is explore how that alliance holds up now that the immediate threat has passed. Having it fall apart in dramatically interesting ways should really be what drives the story from this point imo. If it's just gonna be that everyone stays pals and they all kick Cersei's ass (with a couple of token deaths) then that's not going to be much of an ending. I actually still have faith that it won't play out like that. I guess we'll see.
I have no faith that it will play out in anything other than the most predictable of ways. Since they went off book, things have got more and more Hollywood in style and tone. To the point where the thing that has been the real threat since literally the opening scene of season 1 episode 1, has been brushed aside in favour of the thing that's most definitely not a Song of Ice and Fire.

For me, from now on it can only really go downhill. Unless there's a massive twist and Brienne of Tarth becomes Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, with Ser Davos as her Hand, all the possible permutations seem to have been well and truly explored already.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
Hadn't heard that fan theory (honestly just kinda avoided the fan community overall), but it would be interesting. I feel like though, since last season, they've been wrapping stuff up too nicely (predictably). Circe gets her multitude revenges, Ironborn unich gets his redemption, Sansa teams up with her sister and take out Ferris Bueler's best friend, because the writers don't have any further use for him, etc. etc. Which is why I drearily suspect John "sad puppydog eyes"and Elric's sister are going to get married, unite the kingdoms, usher in a new age of prosperity, blahblahblah. What I desperately want is some pull the rug out from under you event before the end. I can think of a million ways this could be done (OK maybe half a million now that the Night King is dead), but I just want a taste of what made GoT so great in the beginning.

Speaking of the Night King, my GF keeps calling him the Ice King, which makes me think of Adventure Time. And then I'm picturing that old Wizard guy in GoT. Many imaginary lolz were had.

His end felt unsatisfying. Don't get me wrong, it was cool seeing Arya Deathmaster Snikch his ass at the last second. But with every other character in the series we got this in-depth character study (even goddamn Hodor, who spent the early seasons annoying the crap out of me and now is the only character to get me to tears), and NK was just left this two-dimensional Sauron. They could has spent just one episode giving him a backstory, a motivation. I like comicbook films, so I'm content with pretty cartoony villains, but just something besides the vaudeville snidley whiplash-equivalent of an Overlord.
Both Martin and the showrunners have said the show's ending is 'bittersweet' so I doubt the royal couple will live happily ever after.
 

Supervisor194

Legendary Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2017
Messages
207
Reaction score
264
...
I kind of get why the Night King isn't really developed as a character - I think it helps to maintain his otherness (in a similar way to how you never get Dracula's pov in the novel)...
As an aside, if you want to know Dracula's pov you really should read Fred Saberhagen's The Dracula Tape. It's a fairly long series but I thought some of the books were really, really good.
 

saskganesh

Active Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
29
Reaction score
81
Just to point out the lighting is bad in much of the series. Arguably, it is for artistic effect, but it comes off as murky and clumsy.
 

saskganesh

Active Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
29
Reaction score
81
I'm expecting a happy ending for some people, but the costs of it will be so great, that it will cast a shadow on the sunshine. That's the bittersweet.
 

Stevethulhu

Lord of the Pies
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,419
Reaction score
1,674
Just to point out the lighting is bad in much of the series. Arguably, it is for artistic effect, but it comes off as murky and clumsy.
It's like the whispering in the Lord of the Rings movies. They think it's dramatic, when actually it's just annoying.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
I think the lighting is fine and rather conventional throughout the series. In that area it is one of the least cinematic aspects of the show. If you want to see really dark go back and look at Gordon Willis’ use of underexposure in Godfather II or Roger Deakin’s use of it in The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.
 

saskganesh

Active Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
29
Reaction score
81
Perhaps Voros. Most of my watching has come via illegal streams and downloads, so the image quality could be a result of that.
 

Stevethulhu

Lord of the Pies
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,419
Reaction score
1,674
I think the lighting is fine and rather conventional throughout the series. In that area it is one of the least cinematic aspects of the show. If you want to see really dark go back and look at Gordon Willis’ use of underexposure in Godfather II or Roger Deakin’s use of it in The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.
When I can't see what's going on, the action is confusing and I can't even tell which characters are on screen when it's dark outside and I have the lights off, there's a major lighting issue.
 

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
7,059
Reaction score
12,351
I think budget wise it was a clever choice. But the wargamer in me watched that whole battle thinking " there is no evidence of anything resembling tactics going on here"
 

Stevethulhu

Lord of the Pies
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,419
Reaction score
1,674
I think budget wise it was a clever choice. But the wargamer in me watched that whole battle thinking " there is no evidence of anything resembling tactics going on here"
"We have a perfectly good castle. Let's line up outside it!"

As someone who grew up and went to school next to this, and who through gaming has come to have at least a bit of an understanding of how these places work, the tactics of The Long Night really ground my gears. I mean, put your engines inside the walls, preferably on top of the towers. Use the Unsullied to hold the tops of the walls where their shield wall would be all but impenetrable. And if you do have so many that you feel the need to put the bulk of your army outside your walls, use the staged defenses of the castle as fallback positions.

At least read Legend, by David Gemmel before entering production on any fantasy siege episode. And watch Zulu too.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
When I can't see what's going on, the action is confusing and I can't even tell which characters are on screen when it's dark outside and I have the lights off, there's a major lighting issue.
Yeah its odd as I always switch off the lights if a scene is in the dark and when I did so it looked fine to us. We were watching the legit broadcast and I’ve got the settings on my TV set specifically for watching films with strong blacks so perhaps that makes the difference.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
I think budget wise it was a clever choice. But the wargamer in me watched that whole battle thinking " there is no evidence of anything resembling tactics going on here"
I don’t think you have to be a wargamer, my wife thought the same thing. I also wondered why they didn’t have boiling oil and stones to throw down on the scaling walkers. That is a trope familiar even from old films.

But I figure this isn’t an accurate portrait of medieval swordplay and don’t care because it is wonderful.


GoT is equally stylized just with a patina of ‘gritty realism.’ But then ‘realism’ is just another style isn’t it?
 

Stevethulhu

Lord of the Pies
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,419
Reaction score
1,674
Yeah its odd as I always switch off the lights if a scene is in the dark and when I did so it looked fine to us. We were watching the legit broadcast and I’ve got the settings on my TV set specifically for watching films with strong blacks so perhaps that makes the difference.
I watched the legit broadcast in HD on my 55 inch 1080p tv. At night, with the lights out. And the first half hour was almost unwatchable. Most of the dragon scenes were all but unwatchable. It was basically a screen full of crushed blacks. People wearing black at night isn't going to end well.

I don’t think you have to be a wargamer, my wife thought the same thing. I also wondered why they didn’t have boiling oil and stones to throw down on the scaling walkers. That is a trope familiar even from old films.

But I figure this isn’t an accurate portrait of medieval swordplay and don’t care because it is wonderful.


GoT is equally stylized just with a patina of ‘gritty realism.’ But then ‘realism’ is just another style isn’t it?
Matt Easton explains a very simple way the Army og the Dead could have been wiped out at Winterfell. Naturally, this sort of thing was completely ignored, despite the fact that it would have been amazing to watch.

 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
I watched the legit broadcast in HD on my 55 inch 1080p tv. At night, with the lights out. And the first half hour was almost unwatchable. Most of the dragon scenes were all but unwatchable. It was basically a screen full of crushed blacks. People wearing black at night isn't going to end well.


Matt Easton explains a very simple way the Army og the Dead could have been wiped out at Winterfell. Naturally, this sort of thing was completely ignored, despite the fact that it would have been amazing to watch.

The only thing I disagree with is killing the dragon with dragonglass arrows, I don’t think they would pierce the dragons armour/hide.

I thought that was a flawed scene when Daenerys’ dragon was swarmed by walkers, if they were that vulnerable to having their hides pierced they wouldn’t be as fierce as they are. That’s why I always liked the very low AC of dragons in 2e. Smaug wiped out armies after all.

I feel they could have had Winterfell use all the proper tactics and still be overwhelmed by the numbers and the dragon destroying the wall, etc.

I’m sure this gives Martin a way to really distinguish the book from the TV series. I suspect he will approach the siege in a different way.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
He didn't account for anyone with a name. Which reminds me, what did Jon Snow actually do? Other than not much of consequence.
He and Daenerys were supposed to kill the NK and his dragon but failed, although Daenerys came close.
 

Baeraad

Delicate Snowflake
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Messages
639
Reaction score
1,012
The original Valyrian was gender neutral
Not sure if we still have to use spoilers for this, but...

Yes, I know, hence Dany. This was not the subject of my astonishment. It was more like, "okay, that came out of nowhere..."

Ignoring the prophesy, it makes more sense - there was a single enemy who would cause the entire enemy army to collapse if he was taken out, and there was one particular protagonist who was really good at taking out individual enemies. Of course there's a natural opportunity there. It just wasn't how the story seemed meant to go...
 

Trippy

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
1,195
Reaction score
1,729
I dunno about any body else, but 'spoilers' have never been a problem for me. If I didn't want to know the outcome of storylines for any given show, then I wouldn't spend an inordinate amount of time scrawling the internet for information in the first place - I think people who complain about spoilers are their own worst enemies.

Beyond that, what is particularly galling about people posting false leaks and speculative theories, is the stories they end up telling are frequently better - more narratively satisfying - than the official story that is given to us by the actual screenwriters.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,119
Beyond that, what is particularly galling about people posting false leaks and speculative theories, is the stories they end up telling are frequently better - more narratively satisfying - than the official story that is given to us by the actual screenwriters.
You think? I find most fan theories too convoluted and full of silly ‘twists.’
 

Trippy

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
1,195
Reaction score
1,729
You think? I find most fan theories too convoluted and full of silly ‘twists.’
Well, there are a lot of stories out there. I’ve just found many of the more recent series’ episodes to be disappointing after the build up. Plot lines in the show have become increasingly Hollywood-ised and formulaic, while some of the theories at least have an element of originality.
 

Ghost Whistler

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
651
I don't really care if this show is spoiled anymore, but it's probably best to err on the side of caution. We can just safely assume Arya will kill everyone anyway.
 

Ghost Whistler

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
651
1. Use crappy sorceress to light swords on fire
2, Send desert horde horse culture to fight in the middle of the winter in the north with no tactics
3. ...
 

dokel

Legendary Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
382
Reaction score
635
Matt Easton explains a very simple way the Army og the Dead could have been wiped out at Winterfell. Naturally, this sort of thing was completely ignored, despite the fact that it would have been amazing to watch.


Okay I'm gonna wade in with my two cents regarding the pretend fantasy battle on a television show. Although it does make me suspect...


I personally think that keeping everyone inside the castle would have been a really, really bad idea. It presupposes no tactical finesse on the part of the enemy - sure they're mostly a mindless undead horde but the Night King seems to know what he's doing. If I was the Night King and I arrived at Winterfell to find the 'closed' sign up and I was leading an army that doesn't need food or water or shelter I would land my dragon on top of a nearby hilltop and I would sit and wait. And when the near-starving Winterfell forces finally emerged from behind the castle walls I would descend upon them and slaughter every last man, woman and child. It's called siege warfare. Game (of Thrones) over.

Also the "use lots of archers" thing - that's great if you happen to have a whole bunch of trained archers available. If, on the other hand, what you happen to have is light cavalry and spearmen then you might well need a different plan.

So, I reckon a pitched battle was the way to go. Having said that. there were a couple of things...

Firstly, cavalry (Dothraki) on the flank! I mean, c'mon. Spearmen (Unsullied) in shield wall formation front and centre. Archers atop the castle walls. Let the enemy come to you so that you get maximum utility from archers and artillery as they cross the open ground. That's how I would have done it :smile:
 
Last edited:

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
7,059
Reaction score
12,351
Picking up spare conversations and a lot of video recommendations I've ignored, I guess a lot of people are really surprised it was Arya instead of John to kill the Night King.

I thought it was going to be Arya since that prophecy of the different coloured eyes came up. That just screamed "Foreshadowing!" to me I expected John and some of the other characters to have to face the other White Walkers at some point, though, but they really didn't do anything.

The only thing that really bothered me about the episode was that certain characters had been brought back to life (and it's implied the Scarlet Witch's life was greatly extended) by the Fire God, with the implication they were alive to fulfill a specific purpose. I think that's why John is inevitably dying before the end. But most of these revenents were present and died at the battle, but they aren't shown accomplishing any important specific thing before death. They specifically don't affect the outcome of the battle overall. The Witch just lights all their swords a few minutes before the forward infantry are all slaughtered? That's why she was kept alive? I could try to excuse this as, she accomplished numerous things for the God to put the pieces of this battle in place and was allowed, almost in reward, to see out the fruits of her designs. However, going back through many of her major schemes throughout the series that just doesn't line up. And it's worse for the other fellows in that "Fire God superteam of outlaw adventurers" (I don't recall their names, the one guy had an eyepatch), they just fight some skeletons in the dark and then die.

I guess what I'm saying is, I think to be narratively satisfying, they all needed a "Hodor" moment. I really found Hodor annoying through most of the first few seasons, but when in that one moment there's this collision of destiny so strong that it echoes back through time, impairing his speech? In that moment I suddenly loved that character, right before he died. If this was intentional on Martin's part, he's a genius. Because the emotional weight that added to that scene for me was incredible. And I think that other characters whose lives were clearly dominated by a specific destiny so strong that it wouldn't let them die before accomplishing it, that there should have been those moments, a specific event where their presence is what affected the battle's outcome.

Tangently, just typing that out made me consider one possible ending where John's secret gets out, and his followers end up assassinating Elric''s sister to ensure his rule and then he immediately dies as his actual destiny was to effect the death of the Dragon Queen? (probably not, but I like to speculate what I would do for a twist ending)

But that's me overthinking things, it doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it.

And I didn't even notice that apparently there was a Starbuck's coffee in one scene:

 

dokel

Legendary Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
382
Reaction score
635
I'm glad to see that it looks as though we're not going to get 'happily ever after' and that the cracks are already starting to appear in the Team Alive alliance. It looks like Daenerys is going to go full Mad Queen (perhaps more really pissed off than truly bonkers) on Cersei with no regard for collateral damage. And that's not going to go down well with Tyrion, Varys or, for that matter, Jon. At this point I have no bloody idea who is going to end up on the Iron Throne and that's the way I like it. I'm pretty damn sure it ain't gonna be Mr and Mrs Targaryen though.

Also... Jaime and Brienne finally got a room - 'bout time :smile: And Arya and The Hound are back on the road together :smile:
 

Ghost Whistler

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
651
Presumably Arya got to King's Landing in the same time as the army (about five minutes....time distortion 4)
 

Baeraad

Delicate Snowflake
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Messages
639
Reaction score
1,012
My predictions at this point:

* Arya dies. That last "that's not me" felt disturbingly like "there is no place in the world for what I've become." She might take out someone else important (Euron?), but then I think her luck's going to run out.
* Tyrion does something horribly underhanded but terribly effective. His drop in intelligence seems to correspond perfectly to his having gotten ideals - he keeps trying to win nicely, and that's just not working for him. He'll reclaim his brilliance, but only at the cost of realising that the world is exactly as shitty a place as he always thought it was.
* Jaime kills Cercei (possibly to stop her from burning down King's Landing at the moment of her defeat), then lets himself be killed.
* Jon and Dany end up killing each other due to a combination of tragic misunderstandings, tragic fatal flaws and tragic circumstances beyond both of their control. The throne goes to someone horribly boring and inoffensive and not so damn tragic - possibly Gendry, conveniently recently legitimised son of the last uncontested king. Sansa becomes the Queen in the North.

Keep in mind that I'm horrible at making predictions, so I'm probably wrong about all of it. :tongue:
 
Last edited:
Top