Game of Thrones: Who lives, who dies? [SPOILERS]

dokel

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My predictions at this point:

* Arya dies. That last "that's not me" felt disturbingly like "there is no place in the world for what I've become." She might take out someone else important (Euron?), but then I think her luck's going to run out.
She's been my favourite character since day one - both in the books and on screen. If she does die then that's gonna be the point where I finally tear up for sure :smile: I think that out of The Hound and Arya only one will survive and that will have a lot to do with The (zombie) Mountain. I'm still convinced we'll see an Arya vs Ser Gregor showdown. Because, y'know... small vs big is cool.
 

Luca

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Last episode was great. The
recoilless repeater giant crossbows
is the most awesome idea for a magic weapon ever.

Who the fuck needs gunpowder with those things...
 

Apparition

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I don't watch Game of Thrones for obvious reason, but I heard that

a Starbucks coffee cup

bit it in this week's episode.
 

Tom B

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The Witch just lights all their swords a few minutes before the forward infantry are all slaughtered? That's why she was kept alive?
Well, she also lit the trenches...but I think she was kept alive to give Arya the nudge right at the end. She did nothing after that, so I think that's why she was there.
 

Edgewise

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...did anybody else get to the end of the last episode thinking 'for the love of dragons, will the show please just end already……'?
I started this thread and hell yes.
 

Baeraad

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No, but then I know precisely when it's ending, and it seems about right. I'd say there's about two more episodes' worth of horrible death and soul-destroying tragedy left before we run out of characters altogether. :tongue:

For what it's worth, I suspect a feeling of, "this should be over. Why isn't it over?" is kind of intended. It's what the characters will be feeling. The last episode, I think, was all about the demoralising realisation that when you save the world... the world remains, and functions exactly the same as before you saved it. Which means that no one gets to retire and live happily ever after, there's always one more disaster to deal with and one more horrific setback right around the corner.
 

TristramEvans

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So. holy crap - that Kickstarter, linked above? Finally suspended, as expected, but not before it got realllllly insane. Like, the KS creator, sick of all the sarcasm in the comments (he'd been doxxed and his history with the BBB linked by that point), did the most bizarre thing I'd EVER seen in an online argument (I thought I had seen it all). He took a picture of himself (yes, actually him as confirmed by earlier videos posted showing his face) wearing a blonde wig, registered under the name "Allessandra" and in this identity tried to convince everyone that the project was legit. I just....wow.
 

Dumarest

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Somebody really needs to make a sitcom set in the world of a poorly conceived and poorly managed Kickstarter, in the vein of The Office. So many hilarious hijinks.
 

Baeraad

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Well.

That was viciously satisfying in many ways. It probably shouldn't have been, but, well...

One of my predictions from last week turned out to be false. The others are still in play.

I don't know about Arya, though - apparently she's decided she does want to live, so maybe she'll make it. I'm sure Sansa can use another bodyguard. Or, y'know, she can just roam the land righting wrongs, if she doesn't want to be cooped up in Winterfell.

I may be slightly peeved if Tyrion doesn't get to do just one thing that works in the last episode. At least he seemed slightly brighter in this one - he was perfectly correct about Cercei's defenses falling apart like a house of cards as soon as Dany took the gloves off.

ETA: Also, I find it kind of hilarious that in this episode, we find out that the sinisterly beautiful scion of a race of decadent conquerors who rides a monstrous beast, leads an army of brutal savages, and whose official colours are black and red... is the bad guy. And it's actually shocking. :tongue:

Oh, and the satisfying part was finally, after eight seasons of Cercei always being able to "NUH-UH!" her way out of everything, seeing her have to face the reality of having been defeated. Not all the burning and terror. Though the burning and terror was disturbingly cool.
 
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Edgewise

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There was one scene this week that I found moving.

The one where Tyrion let Jamie go.

Otherwise, there were a lot of dumb things.

Tyrion only makes poor decisions, now. Jon's failure to effectively deal with his sister or his aunt puts the lie to everyone's claim that he'd be a terrific king - sorry, Varys, you were wrong and you really overplayed your hand. Euron is a watered-down caricature of your agent of anarchy archetype (e.g. The Joker) - he makes me miss Ramsey. Why are all these medieval people acting like peasant-loving humanists? Eight seasons in, and this stuff rocks them to their cores?

The big "twist" actually made sense, but I didn't really care.

Dany's actions make a lot more sense in the context of a medieval military leader. She's surrounded by traitors and morons, and everyone she trusted is now dead. Her lover is repulsed by her. Dany's isolated and she's been heavily-provoked. The burning of King's Landing was awful, gratuitous and counterproductive, but it wasn't a shocking turn of events.

But I don't have any stake in these characters anymore. Jon and Dany's romance was unconvincing before they knew about their blood relations. The protagonists aren't awful people, but there's nobody I'm really rooting for. The characters that I care about seem to have run out of dramatic arcs. There's Plot left to happen, but the characters are just riding it out, and so am I.
 

Baeraad

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Jon's failure to effectively deal with his sister or his aunt puts the lie to everyone's claim that he'd be a terrific king - sorry, Varys, you were wrong and you really overplayed your hand.
I suspect that Varys' idea of a good king is one who shuts up, looks pretty in a crown and does what his advisors tell him. Of course he thinks Jon would be ideal. :tongue:

I also think Varys is quite perceptive of the current monarch's failings, but keeps projecting his own hopes on the next candidate. He thought Viserys would make a good king, once. And then it was Dany who was going to fix everything. And now it's Jon. If Jon became king, I expect Varys would, to his great surprise, discover that Jon sucked at being king also.
 

Voros

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I know people are being very critical of pretty much everything regarding this series but I was happy with how everything was resolved here. Jaimie's story didn't resolve how I thought it would but it worked for me. Also loved seeing Cercei's army get wiped out and the Hound's arc was well done.

I thought the last scenes with the ash covered face of Arya were reminscent of the Russian masterpiece on WWII Come and See. The horse imagery also reminded me of similar war imagery in Tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev. I womder if they were references or coincidences.
 
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Baeraad

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I know people are being very critical of pretty much everything regarding this series but I was happy with how everything was resolved here. Jaimie's story didn't resolve how I thought it would but it worked for me. Also loved seeing Cercei's army get wiped out and the Hound's arc was well done.
Sure. I would have done a few things differently, but I can see why they did things this way, and I found it perfectly satisfying. I'm still stoked to see how it all ends.
 

Ghost Whistler

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Goto Menu>Character Select>Danerys Targaryen>Character Options>Inventory>Dragon>Upgrades>Fireblast, Dexterity, Insanity>Load Save point
 

Voros

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Will Danerys kill Tyrion for freeing Jaimie or will he flee? Will Arya kill Danerys? What about Sansa?

I personally think the most thematically appropriate although least fan friendly ending is that Danerys takes the Iron Throne and everyone bends the knee but they don't get the kind of ruler they all were hoping for.
 
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dokel

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I know people are being very critical of pretty much everything regarding this series but I was happy with how everything was resolved here. Jaimie's story didn't resolve how I thought it would but it worked for me. Also loved seeing Cercei's army get wiped out and the Hound's arc was well done.

I thought the last scenes with the ash covered face of Arya were reminscent of the Russian masterpiece on WWII Come and See. The horse imagery also reminded me of similar war imagery in Tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev. I womder if they were references or coincidences.
There does seem to be a lot of "I hate it so much I can barely force myself to keep watching week after week."

I agree that there were some really nice shots in this episode. I really liked it when Sandor first squared of with Gregor on the steps and the dragon flew past in the background. And the whole Arya escape sequence was very striking.

Surely Arya is going to be the one to take out Dany. I can't see any other way of getting rid of her other than via assassination. She's pretty much untouchable on the battlefield. I'm veering back toward Gendry on the throne at this point. I just don't think that Jon is going to make it.
 

Ghost Whistler

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Will Danerys kill Tyrion for freeing Jaimie or will he flee? Will Arya kill Danerys? What about Sansa?

I personally think the most thematically appropriate although least fan friendly ending is that Danerys takes the Iron Throne and everyone bends the knee but they don't get the kind of ruler they all were hoping for.
I think the real question is who won't she kill. Clearly she's gone mad. Though not mad enough to realise having sex with your nephew is grotesque
 

Ghost Whistler

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There does seem to be a lot of "I hate it so much I can barely force myself to keep watching week after week."

I agree that there were some really nice shots in this episode. I really liked it when Sandor first squared of with Gregor on the steps and the dragon flew past in the background. And the whole Arya escape sequence was very striking.

Surely Arya is going to be the one to take out Dany. I can't see any other way of getting rid of her other than via assassination. She's pretty much untouchable on the battlefield. I'm veering back toward Gendry on the throne at this point. I just don't think that Jon is going to make it.
Dany for the chop
Jon will fuck off north to live with his grubby mates and drink giants milk
Sansa gets the throne

Crowning Tyrion just seems lame tbh.

I watch it because we're that close to the end and it's a fantasy show on TV, a sadly underrepresented genre (by some margin) on tv. But it isn't really a very good story and the last couple of seasons inclduing this have been a huge rush job, not very well written.
 

dbm

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I also think Varys is quite perceptive of the current monarch's failings, but keeps projecting his own hopes on the next candidate.
I think there are strong parallels to Melisandre, here. She predicted ‘prince‘ after ‘prince’ and got every single one wrong until she ended up with Arya and got it right. A pure numbers game! Varys is similar, backing pretender after pretender until (who knows... we’ll see next week).
Surely Arya is going to be the one to take out Dany. I can't see any other way of getting rid of her other than via assassination.
My narrative sense says the character who offs the Night King can’t also off the Dragon Queen (or any other major character) though perhaps the prophesy from Melisandre will come into force (oh no, not the world’s worst prophet again!).

I think something to keep in mind is that the story is being wrapped up so naturally things are coming together in ways that they never did in the earlier series. It was always going to happen that way from a story arc perspective.
 

Voros

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I think there are strong parallels to Melisandre, here. She predicted ‘prince‘ after ‘prince’ and got every single one wrong until she ended up with Arya and got it right. A pure numbers game! Varys is similar, backing pretender after pretender until (who knows... we’ll see next week).

My narrative sense says the character who offs the Night King can’t also off the Dragon Queen (or any other major character) though perhaps the prophesy from Melisandre will come into force (oh no, not the world’s worst prophet again!).

I think something to keep in mind is that the story is being wrapped up so naturally things are coming together in ways that they never did in the earlier series. It was always going to happen that way from a story arc perspective.
I agree, Arya can't kill the Night King and Dany, doesn't feel right. I really think Dany shouldn't die and should become the new tyrant. To me it feels right and it will piss off more people than the last scene of The Sopranos.
 

dokel

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I think there are strong parallels to Melisandre, here. She predicted ‘prince‘ after ‘prince’ and got every single one wrong until she ended up with Arya and got it right. A pure numbers game! Varys is similar, backing pretender after pretender until (who knows... we’ll see next week).

My narrative sense says the character who offs the Night King can’t also off the Dragon Queen (or any other major character) though perhaps the prophesy from Melisandre will come into force (oh no, not the world’s worst prophet again!).

I think something to keep in mind is that the story is being wrapped up so naturally things are coming together in ways that they never did in the earlier series. It was always going to happen that way from a story arc perspective.
Well I think that there's been this constant idea that in the 'game of thrones' if you're not someone who is actually going to make a bid for the throne yourself then you're going to have to pick someone to back. And that someone is going to be the person who you believe 'should' be on the throne for whatever reason, be it prophecy or the future prosperity of the kingdom or whatever. This has been a big part of Tyrion's arc and it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out in the final episode.

As far as 'everyone gets killed by Arya' I think it's 99.9% certain that Arya will go after Dany. And then there seem to be only two real possible outcomes - either she will succeed in killing her or she will fail. And I can't imagine her surviving a failed assassination attempt.
 
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Stevethulhu

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I agree, Arya can't kill the Night King and Dany, doesn't feel right. I really think Dany shouldn't die and should become the new tyrant. To me it feels right and it will piss off more people than the last scene of The Sopranos.
Arya dead taking out Danaerys. Jon Snow dead taking out Drogon. Tirion and Sansa left to rule the ashes of the Seven Kingdoms from Winterfell. It's not like the Iron Throne is there anymore. The Red Keep is a pile of rubble, Kings Landing a ruin. Where else can you rule from?
 

Baeraad

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Here's a thought I had while reading about people freaking out about Dany's fall to fiery madness: Dany and Cercei have one very important thing in common. They both know privilege, and they both know abuse, and neither one of them knows anything whatsoever in between the two.

As far as either one of them knows from her own life experience, you either assert yourself and take everything you want. Then all is well and people tell you how great you are all day. Or you fail to assert yourself and you get reduced to a bauble to be traded off at best, a complete non-entity that should preferably go away and drop dead at worst. The idea that you might accept an inferior position and still be seen as having human worth may be all but impossible for them to wrap their heads around.

Compare Jon Snow, whose formative experiences all took the form of, "get over yourself. No one cares about your feelings. But there is work that needs to be done, and we want you to buckle up and do it." Jon always had a place in the world. It was a shitty place, but it was a place, and he rarely had to worry about anyone trying to rob him of it.

This doesn't excuse Dany, mind you, because if that's how she thinks, then she's a hypocrite - she would definitely say that her followers have freedom and dignity despite being submissive to her, after all. And she did have at least a brief period of being elevated but not supreme and seeming quite content with that, back in the mid-first season. Also, Tyrion, for one, has the exact same experience of being ignored and despised except when capable of brutalising people into respecting him, and he's somehow turned into one of the nicer characters on the show.

I think, though, that it shows that contrary to what the wailing Internet would claim, this development didn't come out of nowhere. It was part of Dany's character pretty much from day one.
 

Voros

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It seems these days that people ask for strong women characters with complex motivations who can be as much a mess of contradictions equal to Tony Soprano and Walter White and then flinch when given them (I heard similar complaints about Amy Adams in Sharp Objects).
 

dokel

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It seems these days that people ask for strong women characters with complex motivations who can be as much a mess of contradictions equal to Tony Soprano and Walter White and then flinch when given them (I heard similar complaints about Amy Adams in Sharp Objects).
Also: damned if you do go for the Hollywood ending and damned if you don't.
 

Baeraad

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Also: damned if you do go for the Hollywood ending and damned if you don't.
Oh God, yes. The sheer speed by which the refrain turned from, "boo, they're going to make it end happily! That's a betrayal of all the show stands for!" to "boo, they're going to make it end unhappily! What's the point of watching now?" is just astonishing.
 

dokel

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Oh God, yes. The sheer speed by which the refrain turned from, "boo, they're going to make it end happily! That's a betrayal of all the show stands for!" to "boo, they're going to make it end unhappily! What's the point of watching now?" is just astonishing.

I did wonder if the Drogon rampage was maybe the writers acting out some fantasy they have about the fandom :tongue: "Yeah, burn you whiny bunch of fucks!"
 

Séadna

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I agree, Arya can't kill the Night King and Dany, doesn't feel right. I really think Dany shouldn't die and should become the new tyrant. To me it feels right and it will piss off more people than the last scene of The Sopranos.
This is what I would like to see. Also if she went further and instigated genuine social reform or showed evidence of clearly changing the social system. So she would be a tyrant who burned a city to then do exactly what she promised. I wouldn't like some sort of romantic tragic ending where Jon Snow kills the women he loves because she turned cruel, etc.
 

Luca

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If they're going to end it with a shitty "good guys wins, evil guys lose, and we also get to pick who's good and who's bad in a oh-so-convenient way in the second to last episode" I'm going to personally start a "Drakarys" online campaign to forever torch the screenwriters' names off the Hollywood roster...

The way it should end is that the main characters stop all playing different versions of the idiot's ball and start actually using their fucking brains; i.e.
Arya goes for Daenerys while Jon broods on the side, Tyrion stops her, slaps all three of them and says "ok now you can stop acting like children, there's a fucking kingdom to run. So Jon, stop freaking out and start fucking your aunt whom you love anyway; Daenerys, get off your high horse and marry the one who will strenghten your claim, forever secure the North, and will let you actually run the kingdom since he doesn't have the balls to do it; and Arya, you're now Daenerys' personal bodyguard and you'll defend her with your life if you actually want this fucking continent to finally be ruled adequately". And they for once engage their brains and listen to him.

Here's hoping they have the balls to have the main characters act realistically at least in the last episode.
 

Baeraad

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If they're going to end it with a shitty "good guys wins, evil guys lose, and we also get to pick who's good and who's bad in a oh-so-convenient way in the second to last episode" I'm going to personally start a "Drakarys" online campaign to forever torch the screenwriters' names off the Hollywood roster...

The way it should end is that the main characters stop all playing different versions of the idiot's ball and start actually using their fucking brains; i.e.
Arya goes for Daenerys while Jon broods on the side, Tyrion stops her, slaps all three of them and says "ok now you can stop acting like children, there's a fucking kingdom to run. So Jon, stop freaking out and start fucking your aunt whom you love anyway; Daenerys, get off your high horse and marry the one who will strenghten your claim, forever secure the North, and will let you actually run the kingdom since he doesn't have the balls to do it; and Arya, you're now Daenerys' personal bodyguard and you'll defend her with your life if you actually want this fucking continent to finally be ruled adequately". And they for once engage their brains and listen to him.

Here's hoping they have the balls to have the main characters act realistically at least in the last episode.
Yeah, good luck with that one... Have you noticed, in the eight years the series has run, that the characters are almost universally not very clever? :tongue: If people suddenly start acting like rational adults in the very last episode, then I am going to be the one crying copout!
 

dokel

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The way it should end is that the main characters stop all playing different versions of the idiot's ball and start actually using their fucking brains; i.e.
Arya goes for Daenerys while Jon broods on the side, Tyrion stops her, slaps all three of them and says "ok now you can stop acting like children, there's a fucking kingdom to run. So Jon, stop freaking out and start fucking your aunt whom you love anyway; Daenerys, get off your high horse and marry the one who will strenghten your claim, forever secure the North, and will let you actually run the kingdom since he doesn't have the balls to do it; and Arya, you're now Daenerys' personal bodyguard and you'll defend her with your life if you actually want this fucking continent to finally be ruled adequately". And they for once engage their brains and listen to him.

Here's hoping they have the balls to have the main characters act realistically at least in the last episode.
Well it's an interesting notion to suggest that the 'realistic' way for human beings to act is in a coldly logical Mr Spock kind of way. Especially since human beings seem capable of knee-jerk emotional responses to just about anything, including shows on the telly not being exactly the way that they would like them to be.

Also I don't think you need to worry about putting spoiler tags around personal speculation.
 
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Trippy

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I must say I was taken aback by the last episode, as I think a lot of people were if they were being honest. I think some of the criticism of the episode is as much shock as anything else. The 'Mad Queen' plotline has been building for a while, although there is an issue of pacing towards it. Dany's turn to the 'dark side' appeared to happen quite abrubtly. The implication I got was that Dany and Greyworm had already determined to lead a slaughter on the sound of 'the bells' almost as a means to provoke Tyrion who had called for mercy at this notice. The same is true of her mention of Jamie to him, and it may have been a clue to her that the bells signified that Tyrion had betrayed her by letting Jamie go free in order to sound them. If the guards reported that he had done that, then the bells may have been the triggering point. She may also be plotting against Jon - who jilted her and who she previously suggested was a 'traitor as well' - notice how Greyworm kept looking back at Jon in the conflict. My feeling is that all of them may be targets now, and she intends to kill them all.

Some inconsistencies were a notable, for example the giant crossbows appearing to be Dragon-killing super weapon last week, only to be utterly inneffective this week. Other things didn't really get a pay off - The Golden Company were practically irrelevant, and Cercei/Jamie's deaths seemed unsatisfying. But it was better than last week - and I guess the real payoff will be how the last episode ends.

The final conflict, in terms of who is left standing is mainly between the Starks and Dany now, with Tyrion as one other protagonist. Aria could attempt to assasinate, although again this would possibly feel a little unsatisfying. Jon may be a strange case - maybe resistant to Dragon's fire? Who knows? What about the influence of Sansa or Bran back in Winterfell too?

So, obviously, wanting to know how it ends - although it will still be a case of being glad it's all over when it is.
 
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Luca

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Well it's an interesting notion to suggest that the 'realistic' way for human beings to act is in an coldly logical Mr Spock kind of way. Especially since human beings seem capable of knee-jerk emotional responses to just about anything, including shows on the telly not being exactly the way that they would like them to be.

Also I don't think you need to worry about putting spoiler tags around personal speculation.
The issue here is one of degrees.
Daenerys has one of two alternatives in the last episode:

A) Get the capital intact, basically for free, since they just surrendered
B) Torch it for the lulz, so what is going to be your kingdom half an hour from now starts with no capital and will go into a colossal multi-decades deficit just to rebuild it

IMO, you don't need to be Spock to pick A. In fact, you need to be a completely deranged psychopath to pick B. Any other personality will just default to A as a matter of fact.

Now if they had built Daenerys as a deranged pscyho since season 1 then yeah, I could see it. But they showed her as a competent leader. And even a barely decent one would pick A every day of the week.

Same goes for most of the latest episodes and most of the characters. They have an obvious win-win solution, everyone knows (and talks!) about it, but no one of them picks it for... reasons.

If you need all your main characters to start behaving like dumbasses in order to keep the tension, you should have a long hard think about whether you overextended your plot lines...
 
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