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Gabriel

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Yesterday I discovered GW's Combat Arena existed. I had some cursory interest in Gorechosen, but skipped it because the Age of Sigmar theme didn't resonate with me. But if GW wants to reskin in with 40K, then I'm game. I haven't played it yet, but I spent half an hour last night snapping together miniatures.

I like the GW boardgames. I like Space Hulk. I like Deathwatc: Overkill. I like Space Marine Adventures. I like Warhammer Quest: The Silver Tower. I also have Warhammer Quest: Blackstone Fortress and Warhammer Quest: Shadows of Hammerhal, but I haven't finished (or started in the latter's case) assembling them yet. I also like the 40K push fit miniatures. They're generally easy and actually fun to assemble. The push fit miniatures are generally so well engineered and look so nice that they make me think that maybe I could get back into model building.

But then I purchased a 40K starter set, or I get hold of something that doesn't have the easy assemble miniatures. To be perfectly fair, the models are still generally excellent. Putting together a Deathwatch marine is nowhere near as unpleasant to me as say... assembling some of the Shadows of Brimstone minis. But it's still something that I find unfun. They're good models, but it snaps me out of my enthusiasm for the game.

Plus, I'm simply not a tabletop miniatures wargaming guy. I prefer grids or at least movement zones to a freeform table and measuring tape. For miniatures wargaming, I'm much more about Heroscape and it's hex tiles than moving little figures keeping them about 1" apart while I move them 9" down the table. In short, I'm a boardgamer.

But I like GW's stuff. I'm interested in 40K, and at least a little bit in Sigmar and classic fantasy. And modern GW is realizing that it doesn't hurt to cater a bit to people like me as Combat Arena and the other games I own proves.

What kind of sucks is there's not really anywhere for me to go beyond that. Oh, GW has started realizing there's a market there. The support for Blood Bowl has been pretty good the past few years, and if I was into that then I'm sure I'd feel pretty good. Also, Blackstone Fortress has received some expansions, which gives that game some legs and lets you grow down that track. But that's not really the route GW promotes. Combat Arena introduces some nifty characters, giving them backstories and quests. And when the player is done with Combat arena? Go buy a 40K Space Marine vs Orcs starter to "continue your adventures." How does that continue my adventures? Combat Arena sets up it's lore as the included characters training for an upcoming quest, and then... nothing. Go play spezz merinez!

The catalog doesn't even promote Kill Team, which seems a logical progression. It doesn't mention Blackstone Fortress either, and I understand there are some character cards to use the Combat Arena characters in that game.

I dunno. I just wish there was some interconnectivity between the games for a fan like myself beyond: play full bore 40K.

I would like to get a Deathwatch Corvus Blackstar. That thing looks pretty sweet.
 

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Classic Fantasy was amazing. As a kid I loved it even just for collecting figures to paint and display, and to eat up the amazing art in the rulebooks. I will never understand why they chose to retire it but I guess they are trying to appeal to broader audiences now. Fantasy also had some great videogames based on it; I'm reminded of an RTS where you could hire mercenaries, build and equip armies, field mages, etc. against chaos hordes, skaven and traitors (I think for the original playstation?).

40k I played for a bit but it was prohibitively expensive as a young person, and the rules were less interesting to me. I don't think I'd be inclined to field any of the armies these days, although I have fond memories of my pewter Warp Spiders. I'm not much of a wargamer anyway, less so now with my limited time to invest.
 

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I thought I'd heard mention of them adding some stats that would let you take the Blackstone Fortress setting/figures into Kill Team games?
 

TristramEvans

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Kill Team is one of my favourite skirmish games of all time. The rules are excellent, it's fairly balanced, and I always enjoy it. I really wish I could say the same for Warcry, the AoS equivalent - in fact I really wish they'd simply adapted the same rules to fantasy. Alas, Warcry more often than not just leaves me feeling frustrated.

AoS is fine, I suppose. I don't hate the rules, I don't love them. The only thing I actually hate is the fluff and aesthetics, but it would be easy enough to ignore that. The main problem is that it is a skirmish game, not a rank and file wargame, and honestly I've got better things to do with my time than move a few hundred INDIVIDUAL damn minis every damned turn, so I would never play even a standard tournament-sized game.

I loved WFB. Some editions more than others, and every edition had it's problems, but I love the Oldworld and I love the warhammer fantasy rank and file mass battle games in general. For as much slack as 8th edition gets as the edition that "killed" Warhammer, I think it was a quite well-designed rules set with just a few major problems that stood in the way of it's success. It still has the best magic system I've ever encountered in a miniature wargame - if you just removed or nerfed some of the problem spells, like Purple Sun. Overall my two favourite editions were 6th and 3rd. My primary issue with Middle and NewHammer (4th-8th) is the armybooks, which were inconsistently released, were not playtested, and featured a constant powercreep to sell thew newest models rather than provide a satisfying gameplay experience.

The finest game that GW ever produced, IMO, is Warmaster. It is quick to play while still having incredible tactical depth, it captures the character of the individual armies amazingly well with only a few tweaks, so that the armies all play quite differently while remaining "balanced" against each other. It was extensively playtested, and streamlined. And it scales incredibly well, so that playing a 1000 point game is just as viable as a 6000 pt game. Theres definitely a reason the system is now used for the most popular historical wargames (Black Powder and Hail Caesar).
 

Malleustein

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The new, improved White Dwarf magazine (now featuring actual game content!) has rules for adding factions to Necromunda, Black Stone Fortress, Kill Team, etc.

Warhammer: Underworlds has fast become my favourite specialist game. It is genuinely well-balanced, plays quickly and I only have to assemble and paint a handful of miniatures. It is designed for fast and competitive play.

We played Kill Team a lot last year. I can say my Deathguard went almost unbeaten. I'm not boasting my superior tactical skills, they're tough as old concrete boots. I only lost because I didn't have enough to capture and hold multiple objectives sometimes.
 

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GW needed to make a game like Kill Team for a couple of decades. They assumption that you'd get interested in the games and just get up to speed with people with full-sized, 100+ figure armies did them a lot of harm. And the individual troop boxes have such a wide range of options that it makes sense to build a game around a single-item, £30 buy-in.

Still lots to complain about (prices, so many breakable bits that snap off in transport, prices, rules salad), but they are much better in so many ways than they were 5 years ago. Big boxed sets from GW are always a joy, and the Start Collecting stuff is priced well. They would have been half an army back in 2nd edition!

In the end, the minis are right at the forefront of design in the hobby these days, beauttiful things (and it certainly wasn't true when the ex-CEO claimed they were). Only thing I absolutely loathe though is the proliferation of cards and special abilities and stratagems and gubbins like that, it makes keeping on top of a game line a nightmare.
 

TristramEvans

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As far as "bitz snipping off" at least, I can offer an easy solution - dip your painted minis in wood varnish (or Army Painter "Dip"), shake off the excess, and let dry. Your mini will be encased in a hard transparent shell that will make it nigh-indestructible - at least as tough as an unpainted pvc figurine from a boardgame..
 

Atelerix

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Even the super-thin, long pieces of cable, or wisps of hair or smoke that you get on a lot of modern models? Admech Skitarii, for example?

Will give it a try, sir!
 

TristramEvans

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Even the super-thin, long pieces of cable, or wisps of hair or smoke that you get on a lot of modern models? Admech Skitarii, for example?

Will give it a try, sir!

Indeed, it's a thick casing, leaves them impervious to most abuse.

I don't do it for my really good paint jobs, but for minis intended for play, it's a godsend. When I go to a game, I just chuck them all in a shoebox, don't even have to worry about foam.
 

Voros

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Surprised that Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone never bought back the RPG licenses from GW but I’m assuming they both made a load of cash from the FF books and when they sold their portion of GW (also assuming they did that at some point).
 

TristramEvans

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I thought Squadron UK was done by the creators of Golden Heroes as a follow-up/revision. I'd be surprised if GW owns the rights, since they were just the publisher of the original, it wasn't an in-house creation
 

Malleustein

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GW needed to make a game like Kill Team for a couple of decades. They assumption that you'd get interested in the games and just get up to speed with people with full-sized, 100+ figure armies did them a lot of harm. And the individual troop boxes have such a wide range of options that it makes sense to build a game around a single-item, £30 buy-in.

Still lots to complain about (prices, so many breakable bits that snap off in transport, prices, rules salad), but they are much better in so many ways than they were 5 years ago. Big boxed sets from GW are always a joy, and the Start Collecting stuff is priced well. They would have been half an army back in 2nd edition!

In the end, the minis are right at the forefront of design in the hobby these days, beauttiful things (and it certainly wasn't true when the ex-CEO claimed they were). Only thing I absolutely loathe though is the proliferation of cards and special abilities and stratagems and gubbins like that, it makes keeping on top of a game line a nightmare.

Spot on about the change between Games Workshop now and the early 2010's. The CEO at the time (his name escapes me) killed everything that wasn't a top seller. I'm surprised he didn't rename the company SPACE MARINES, selling only Space Marines for the game Space Marine.

Hang on, I do actually have the epic scale game Space Marine...

He had no idea about the popularity of the specialist games, which the company now supports very well.

It took me a long time to warm to Age of Sigmar, and I am still not entirely there. I have a fondness for The Old World and the launch was badly handled, which the staff admit in the Stormcast podcasts on the Games Workshop youtube channel. There was far less backlash for Warhammer 40,000's Dark Imperium timeline bump, people accept it was just to establish the Primaris Space Marines and the return of Primarchs/Daemon Princes.

They brought back Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Warhammer Quest as well as a focus on small scale play in Kill Team and Skirmish. Even the old Lost and the Damned books are back on sale at Warhammer World.
 

David Johansen

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I loved WFB. Some editions more than others, and every edition had it's problems, but I love the Oldworld and I love the warhammer fantasy rank and file mass battle games in general. For as much slack as 8th edition gets as the edition that "killed" Warhammer, I think it was a quite well-designed rules set with just a few major problems that stood in the way of it's success. It still has the best magic system I've ever encountered in a miniature wargame - if you just removed or nerfed some of the problem spells, like Purple Sun. Overall my two favourite editions were 6th and 3rd. My primary issue with Middle and NewHammer (4th-8th) is the armybooks, which were inconsistently released, were not playtested, and featured a constant powercreep to sell thew newest models rather than provide a satisfying gameplay experience.

I think you're right about eighth. But I'll add that it pushed the model counts up to absurd levels. Especially if you wanted to win. I also hated the random terrain effects, what do you mean my men can't tell the river is lava? The game just got too busy too much extra stuff going on all over the table. There were things I liked (magic was okay but sixth was better and cleaner) The 25% Heroes, 25% Lords did a much better job of reigning in excessive characters than the fixed numbers of characters from sixth and seventh that guaranteed that Undead an Chaos Warriors would dominate. The old 50% characters from 4th and 5th allowed too many megalords on monsters at too low of a points total. I also liked the movement rules with marching not being allowed in terrain rather than the half move rule. I do miss some of the formation stuff but then I miss unit interpenetration from first edition.

In the end though eighth made the cardinal error that many games make, the edition that mainly appealed to long term players and was too hard to get into for new players.
 

Malleustein

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That Games Workshop no longer insists a battle must take a full day and involve hundreds of miniatures can only be a good thing.

Kill Team is very popular in my area, War Cry is growing as more warbands become available. Both games rely on a handful of miniatures, which might tempt people to experiment. You can make a good Kill Team for £20, which makes it very easy to bring new players or to dabble in armies you wouldn't otherwise bother with.

Of course, if you want to expand your game with Elite troopers, psychic powers, etc. then Games Workshop will be happy to sell you the supplement books and card decks.
 

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I tried out Kill Team last year. Painted up some tyranids; met up with some players at a LGS; and tried a few skirmishes.

It didn't really grab me. The rules we OK - nothing special for me; the players weren't really that interested in bringing newcomers on-board; and the scenario(s) we played were really just 2 forces meeting in the middle of the board and duking it out. Kill Team may be a great game, but the experience was flat to me. I felt like I was wasting my time, and stopped showing up to the LGS on Thursdays. I still have the (weak) tyranid warband, but I sold off other models I bought to build another warband (Death Guard).

In my neck of the woods, it seems like 40k rules the roost. Based on the LGS' schedule, and posts in a local Facebook group, it seems tough to find other games being played.
 
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K_Peterson

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Oh, another thought:

If there was a GW game with the potential to hook me, it would be Necromunda. I own a number of the books; bought the starter box; bought a couple of other gang boxes; even got some GW terrain around. The combination of skirmish play, and campaigns and lots of terrain is really intriguing to me. The whole concept of gangs fighting in the bowels of an arcology makes me a little giddy.

But, it would take some initiative to dredge up some players and give it a go. I'd like to get around to painting what I've got at least.
 

Gringnr

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I thought Squadron UK was done by the creators of Golden Heroes as a follow-up/revision. I'd be surprised if GW owns the rights, since they were just the publisher of the original, it wasn't an in-house creation


It's a bit more complex than that. Simon Burley published Squadron UK in the early aughts, believing that the rights to Golden Heroes had reverted back to him after I think two decades. He had apparently sent GW a letter stating his intention to publish a revised version of GH under the SqUK name. Getting no response, he proceeded, believing himself to be on the right side of the law. Squadron UK and several supplements were published and/or sold on drivethrurpg. Eventually, Burley attracted the attention of a publisher who wanted to produce the game, but wanted the retro caché of the original Golden Heroes name. Burley again wrote to GW, asking for permission to use the name. This time, however, he received a response, in the form of a "cease and desist" letter from GW. They informed him that they still owned GH, and would pursue legal action if he persisted.

Burley has dropped a few teasers about the current state of GH, saying that he knows for a fact that GW would like to produce a new version with his involvement. He has also teased other stuff, but I can't remember what at the moment. He has also stated that he grew bored with GH. So I don't know how motivated he is to resurrect it, even if it were possible.

I'd like to see a new edition, it would be an instant buy for me. But, who knows if it will ever happen. I get the impression that he'd like to be known for his other design work, and maybe feels a bit shackled to GH. Reminds me of Scott Burns, a music producer who became so inextricably linked to the early death metal scene that he was unable to get work in other genres. He now works in IT.

In summation, GW can still suck my ass.

Edit: there is a newer version of Squadron UK, which is similar to GH in several respects, but different in several others. I find it to be a bit of a mixed bag. To be sure, there are certain improvements over GH, but on the whole I still prefer the original.
 

Gabriel

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And today I learned about Aeronautical Imperialis. I had initially written this off as yet another flight path system or other freeform tabletop movement game. But I was looking at it today and... hexes? Interest immediately increased tenfold. I also liked how the bases were shown to have dials to keep track of game information.

I dunno if I'll bite, tho. The plane miniatures don't exactly thrill me. Plus the base set strikes me as extremely limited for the $80 I'd be paying for it. Only 4 different kinds of planes? More planes will cost $40 per pack? For the price being asked, I could probably score a decent copy of FASA's Crimson Skies. Maybe I'll wait until I see a set on ebay of the rules and all the tokens and stuff for $20 or something.
 

David Johansen

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I've played the new version of Aeronautica Imperialis. It does a pretty good job of a World War II air combat game without getting too complex. The models are really nice.
 

TristramEvans

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And today I learned about Aeronautical Imperialis. I had initially written this off as yet another flight path system or other freeform tabletop movement game. But I was looking at it today and... hexes? Interest immediately increased tenfold. I also liked how the bases were shown to have dials to keep track of game information.

I dunno if I'll bite, tho. The plane miniatures don't exactly thrill me. Plus the base set strikes me as extremely limited for the $80 I'd be paying for it. Only 4 different kinds of planes? More planes will cost $40 per pack? For the price being asked, I could probably score a decent copy of FASA's Crimson Skies. Maybe I'll wait until I see a set on ebay of the rules and all the tokens and stuff for $20 or something.

 

David Johansen

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Blood Red Skies is fun but not particularly detailed. It's good for multiple squadrons. I did play with Sabres and Migs from the Korean War Mig Alley set a couple weeks ago. Man are they fast!
 

Malleustein

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And today I learned about Aeronautical Imperialis. I had initially written this off as yet another flight path system or other freeform tabletop movement game. But I was looking at it today and... hexes? Interest immediately increased tenfold. I also liked how the bases were shown to have dials to keep track of game information.

I dunno if I'll bite, tho. The plane miniatures don't exactly thrill me. Plus the base set strikes me as extremely limited for the $80 I'd be paying for it. Only 4 different kinds of planes? More planes will cost $40 per pack? For the price being asked, I could probably score a decent copy of FASA's Crimson Skies. Maybe I'll wait until I see a set on ebay of the rules and all the tokens and stuff for $20 or something.

It is like X-Wing. But it's on hexes. Oh, and it doesn't have you chasing overpriced collectible cards to win competitively.

Currently the game has fighters and bombers for the Orks and Imperial Navy. Coming soon is Tau and Imperial Guard. There are supposed to be at least six factions, so I expect Eldar and perhaps Necrons later.

It was rewritten from the older Forge World game, with hexes to speed up movement and maneuvering. It is very easy to learn how to play, and the two factions are interestingly different in ways that make replaying battles fun. The Rynn's War expansion book, map and ground targets add a lot! But the core game works well.

It is a hefty price tag though.
 

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I'm reminded of an RTS where you could hire mercenaries, build and equip armies, field mages, etc. against chaos hordes, skaven and traitors (I think for the original playstation?).
Dark Omen.
ps1_warhammer_dark_omen_p_88zq8o.jpg


893513846.jpg
 

Gabriel

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I picked up Shadow of the Horned Rat for the PS1 back in the day. I liked the concept but I didn't like the game. I don't recall specifics, but the interface was really bad. Most of the time I didn't feel like I could even control my units and they just did whatever they wanted. I think I got stuck on the third mission or something, and simply could not get past it after many tries. I kept the game for a few years, occasionally booting it up to see if I could figure out what I was doing wrong in order to get past that one mission. Nothing ever worked, and I think I dumped the game at a pawn shop.

I liked Space Hulk on the 3DO. I have most of the GW games available on the PS4. I need to get back to my Space Hulk and Deathwatch games.

Just remembered that I have a 40K game for the PSP. I think I also have one for the N-Gage somewhere! Probably need to play those someday.
 

Antiquation!

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Dark Omen.
ps1_warhammer_dark_omen_p_88zq8o.jpg


893513846.jpg
That's the one, thanks! Overall it was mostly too difficult for me, though I did enjoy it. On PS1 I generally played much more of the lighter/more accessible fare such as Tomba!, Einhander, MGS, *WAY* too much Hogs of War with my brother along with Rampage, MDK, Legend of Legaia, Legacy of Kain, Nightmare Creatures 1 and 2, etc. As well as PaRappa the Rapper which basically gave me an extremely minor form of PTSD due to an experience that left me particularly sour and distrustful of family, lol. I never got into Final Fantasy except for some of 8 but I understand a lot of people spent time with those as well.
I picked up Shadow of the Horned Rat for the PS1 back in the day. I liked the concept but I didn't like the game. I don't recall specifics, but the interface was really bad. Most of the time I didn't feel like I could even control my units and they just did whatever they wanted. I think I got stuck on the third mission or something, and simply could not get past it after many tries. I kept the game for a few years, occasionally booting it up to see if I could figure out what I was doing wrong in order to get past that one mission. Nothing ever worked, and I think I dumped the game at a pawn shop.

I liked Space Hulk on the 3DO. I have most of the GW games available on the PS4. I need to get back to my Space Hulk and Deathwatch games.

Just remembered that I have a 40K game for the PSP. I think I also have one for the N-Gage somewhere! Probably need to play those someday.
I played Shadow of the Horned Rat, and I failed miserably at it as well. The timed missions in particular were pure suffering as you wasted so much time simply trying to maneuver and face your regiments. :irritated: Space Hulk on 3DO was great! I got similar vibes from, and very much enjoyed, Alien VS Predator on the Jaguar. I think my favorite game on the 3DO was Return Fire though, which I played for a shameful number of hours with my brother. The skull laughing upon death is still seared into my brain, "AH-HA-HA-HO-HA-HOOOAAA". Base destruction was so much fun and the music was great. One of our favorites was going out into the ocean in the jeeps with the inflatable tires or helicopters and seeing which person would fail to dodge the missiles of the "you can't leave the map" submarines first.

Edit: Sorry, that was a hell of a drift. Just reminiscing I guess. :cry:
 

Baulderstone

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That's the one, thanks! Overall it was mostly too difficult for me, though I did enjoy it.
It was certainly hard. I only made it through a small number of the battles myself. Still, it was exciting enough at the time to be playing a real-time game in the Warhammer universe that I got my money's worth through playing the early stages or the game repeatedly.
 

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I wanted to like Horned Rat and Dark Omen, but I didn't think the controls really worked on console - this being the era where developers were still doing quite straight ports, not really taking into account the difference between M+KB and controller. If I'd had a PC at the time, I'd probably have liked it a lot more.

---

I always wanted a Warhammer-themed version of the Dynasty Warriors series.
 

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I wanted to like Horned Rat and Dark Omen, but I didn't think the controls really worked on console - this being the era where developers were still doing quite straight ports, not really taking into account the difference between M+KB and controller. If I'd had a PC at the time, I'd probably have liked it a lot more.

That was a big part of why the game was so damn hard for me. I didn't have an up-to-date, gaming-friendly PC at the time.


I always wanted a Warhammer-themed version of the Dynasty Warriors series.
That would be pretty cool.
 

TristramEvans

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I will say Total War Warhammer is probably one of the best videogames I've ever played, but I don't play a lot of videogames.
 

Gabriel

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I immediately looked for Corsairs and Pappy Boyington. Yep.

Sadly, not really the game for me. But I'm still going to keep it in mind. I've long wanted some Corsair minis.
 

Antiquation!

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I played the new Space Hulk on PC. It is a pretty decent recreation of the board game with some nice visuals but I got bored of it pretty quickly.
 

TristramEvans

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I immediately looked for Corsairs and Pappy Boyington. Yep.

Sadly, not really the game for me. But I'm still going to keep it in mind. I've long wanted some Corsair minis.


My uncle, an old school military man, used to play an airplane based wargame when I was a kid, where each opponent had their own "book" and depending on the maneuver or whatever you did, it directed the other player to a specific page in their book. Wish I knew what that game was, but I was like 8 at the time, and he passed long before I thought to ask anyone in my family about it, and of course, they had no idea.

But years later I would encounter something very similar (but much much simpler) with the short-lived "Battlebooks" trend of the late 80s/early 90s.

Anyways, I've never played any vehicle-based wargame*, besides BattleTech. And, I don't really recommend Aerotech - I mean, it's OK, but nothing special. But I wouldn't mind playing one based on Star Frontiers' Knighthawks system.

Edit: just remembered, I played a bunch of that old submarine one, whose name escapes me at the moment.
 
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Baulderstone

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My uncle, an old school military man, used to play an airplane based wargame when I was a kid, where each opponent had their own "book" and depending on the maneuver or whatever you did, it directed the other player to a specific page in their book. Wish I knew what that game was, but I was like 8 at the time, and he passed long before I thought to ask anyone in my family about it, and of course, they had no idea.
I had that. It was called Ace of Aces.
800px-AceOfAces-Game.png
 

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I think Flying Buffalo has Ace of Aces. They have Lost Worlds anyhow.
 

Gabriel

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After 15 months, I finally finished assembling Blackstone Fortress. No, I haven't painted them or anything like that. When I got the game all those months ago, I assembled the hero characters, but saw all the enemies I'd have to assemble and said "later." Last night, I finally decided it was "later" and started putting the rest together.

I'll state again that I really like the 40K push fit minis. They're super well made.

Now I just need to learn the game and play. But this weekend is either Interceptor, Silent Death, or Star Trek: STCS.

I've had a few plays of Combat Arena. I was expecting something vaguely like Star Wars Epic Duels, and that's pretty close to how it works. Actions are moderated by cardplay, only unlike Epic Duels the cards aren't specific to characters. The game is a little bit heavier than Epic Duels, which is good for those times when Epic Duels feels a little bit too light and quick for the mood.

Still, the game would be better with 3 or 4 players. We'll probably have to toss in some of the variant rules for our two player games, or play two warriors each.

My copies of Blood Bowl and WQ: Shadows of Hammerhal still sit unassembled. I know from assembling the Blitz Bowl figures that the Blood Bowl ones aren't truly push fit, and will require me to sit around with superglue, so I'm in no hurry to mess with that. Hammerhal has standard glue figures, which means I'm not looking forward to assembling it either. If Blackstone Fortress works out and is as cool as Silver Tower, hopefully the expansions will have nicely made push fit miniatures.
 

TristramEvans

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lol, sounds like you'd prefer metal minis - no assembly, just paint n play

I do have to say, I think WH has gone a bit overboard with the complexity of their minis. Ultimately these are for pushing around on a board, not a display cabinet.
 
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