Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
Ah yes, I knew it would only be a matter of time until the "what about the baby orcs?!" question was raised. If a GM presents humanoids as "people in funny suits," misunderstood noble savages, boyfriend/girlfriend material etc. then clearly it's in poor taste to have PCs slaying non combatants.
Even though I find it childish to use terms like good and evil as objective descriptors it's perfectly fine to present humanoids as unambiguously inimical to mankind. Orcs are the unhallowed progeny of degenerates and swine-daemons. They find amusement in torturing, burning, and eating captives. Gnolls are sadistic man-eaters, each and every one. We all know what deep ones want to do to humanity. There is no peace between man and man-ape, only war. You get the picture.
Again we go back to session zero and managing expectations. It's really important for a GM to describe the tone, tropes, and genre conventions before people commit.
My apologies, you make an excellent point and I stand corrected. I agree that the issue could have been briefly and professionally addressed in a sidebar and am frankly a little surprised it wasn't. I was thinking of it from the perspective of someone who is familiar with the content and not someone who might be completely new to B2 and 80's D&D.Like I said. There should have at minimum been a sidebar on the topic. What is the assumption the module makes as a default? The remaster doesn't even do that. It's just like the module has always been. Suddenly, out of the blue, in a room there are non-combatant females and young. What does that mean in the context of the module?
I'm not saying to censor and retroactively change the original. I'm saying it's a problem point in the original, and in a remaster should have been addressed in some way. It probably isn't a big deal, because the audience for this book will be 40+ somethings who are nostalgic for the original, and will have long ago come to terms with that element, but that doesn't mean the element causing a problem wasn't a long standing thing that needed some commentary and/or tweaking.
I think leaving it unaddressed allows each group to decide for themselves if it's a problem and how to deal with it.Like I said. There should have at minimum been a sidebar on the topic. What is the assumption the module makes as a default? The remaster doesn't even do that. It's just like the module has always been. Suddenly, out of the blue, in a room there are non-combatant females and young. What does that mean in the context of the module?
I'm not saying to censor and retroactively change the original. I'm saying it's a problem point in the original, and in a remaster should have been addressed in some way. It probably isn't a big deal, because the audience for this book will be 40+ somethings who are nostalgic for the original, and will have long ago come to terms with that element, but that doesn't mean the element causing a problem wasn't a long standing thing that needed some commentary and/or tweaking.
I'm fine with either way, as long as the setting makes it clear. Personally, I go for a mix. Orc are near human but gnolls are constantly hungry demons.Ah yes, I knew it would only be a matter of time until the "what about the baby orcs?!" question was raised. If a GM presents humanoids as "people in funny suits," misunderstood noble savages, boyfriend/girlfriend material etc. then clearly it's in poor taste to have PCs slaying non combatants.
Even though I find it childish to use terms like good and evil as objective descriptors it's perfectly fine to present humanoids as unambiguously inimical to mankind. Orcs are the unhallowed progeny of degenerates and swine-daemons. They find amusement in torturing, burning, and eating captives. Gnolls are sadistic man-eaters, each and every one. We all know what deep ones want to do to humanity. There is no peace between man and man-ape, only war. You get the picture.
Again we go back to session zero and managing expectations. It's really important for a GM to describe the tone, tropes, and genre conventions before people commit.
Ah yes, I knew it would only be a matter of time until the "what about the baby orcs?!" question was raised. If a GM presents humanoids as "people in funny suits," misunderstood noble savages, boyfriend/girlfriend material etc. then clearly it's in poor taste to have PCs slaying non combatants.
Even though I find it childish to use terms like good and evil as objective descriptors it's perfectly fine to present humanoids as unambiguously inimical to mankind. Orcs are the unhallowed progeny of degenerates and swine-daemons. They find amusement in torturing, burning, and eating captives. Gnolls are sadistic man-eaters, each and every one. We all know what deep ones want to do to humanity. There is no peace between man and man-ape, only war. You get the picture.
Again we go back to session zero and managing expectations. It's really important for a GM to describe the tone, tropes, and genre conventions before people commit.
Think of it this way. Suppose you were clearing an old house or something and found some roaches, including a nest full of baby roaches. Would you go 'oh can't hurt them, they're just babies!" Now suppose a fantasy world where the roaches had near-human intelligence and weighed 200 lb.
I found this the other day: https://treeofwoe.substack.com/p/when-orcs-were-real
Same, from Homo Flores for Hobbits to Australopithecus for the various "goblins species"I've always imagined the "demi-humans" in my fantasy worlds to be other species of the genus Homo.
...
$$$What the heck is in there that required two books?
In the first game I played ever set in the s module, we saved them and helped them get better lives. Of course, the DM treated monsters as smart enough to surrender, or run away. So even males that surrendered to our characters were taken prisoner for justice. Something about the cave having magic-ed the monsters into their actions in the first place at least most of them, so we helped out. Ended up with an orc tribe farming some lands abandoned by others due to different monster attacks. I can't remember if that was the game where we trained them as local peasant militia or not. *shrugs* I was a /very/ different kid than a lot of other D&D players apparently.Like I said. There should have at minimum been a sidebar on the topic. What is the assumption the module makes as a default? The remaster doesn't even do that. It's just like the module has always been. Suddenly, out of the blue, in a room there are non-combatant females and young. What does that mean in the context of the module?
Well everything 5e requires 150-250+ pages that used to be 32-64. ToEE had lots of room to expand and whole sections left blank so if they filled those in for GMs it could easily bulk up. It's also got a lot of company history around it so I could see pages filled with that. A few people writing about how they experienced it and I can see two books.
What the heck is in there that required two books?
Yeah the 5e conversion for the Village is in the first book. Some people are annoyed the whole conversion isn't in the 2nd book.The original was quite a large module so the 5e version, which are done with larger font, more spacing and new art, is probably quite the tome itself.
I believe they've also included the Village of Hommlet but don't quote me on that one.
As it should be.I think leaving it unaddressed allows each group to decide for themselves if it's a problem and how to deal with it.
I could be mis remembering but I think they are redoing some old judges guilds ip they purchased off JG first and then they plan to come back. The question is what will they be able to license.So, the ToEE reincarnation has been out for a while. Do you think there will be any more of this line of redos? Has Goodman announced something and I've missed it?
I haven't heard anything but I'd love GG forever if they did "The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" (S4) + "The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun" (WG4) together in one volume.So, the ToEE reincarnation has been out for a while. Do you think there will be any more of this line of redos? Has Goodman announced something and I've missed it?
“The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun" (WG4)
How does running them with TFT work out? A lot of work or very little? Have you felt the need to do anything to deal with the generally higher lethality of TFT combat?I've previously been sort of down on this series simply because the books are mostly the same as my original copies but with 10x the page count (literally). But someone gave me a couple of them recently and I started using them in my weekly gaming sessions, and I've come around. I really enjoy the introductory essays that frame the module. I like the expanded artwork and sometimes like the new maps (they aren't always great...), and the additions in content are modest and sensible. I continue to hate it when they include multiple versions of the same original module (as they are nearly indistinguishable) and the 5E conversions are useless to me, as I actually run them all using TFT, and if I did anything else it would be to run them in B/E or 1E. But, overall, a cool line of books.
I find it takes literally zero work to run classic D&D modules and settings with TFT. The stat blocks for creatures are different, but most things you will encounter have official TFT versions, and those that don't can be ad libbed quickly. The stat blocks for NPCs are more problematic if you don't know TFT well, but I find it trivial to assign stat scores, talents and spells that adequately represent the character's strengths and weaknesses.How does running them with TFT work out? A lot of work or very little? Have you felt the need to do anything to deal with the generally higher lethality of TFT combat?
I find it takes literally zero work to run classic D&D modules and settings with TFT. The stat blocks for creatures are different, but most things you will encounter have official TFT versions, and those that don't can be ad libbed quickly. The stat blocks for NPCs are more problematic if you don't know TFT well, but I find it trivial to assign stat scores, talents and spells that adequately represent the character's strengths and weaknesses.
The question of lethality, and, more generally, power level, is obvious but more nuanced than it appears at face value. Yes, TFT characters at all experience levels are always at some level of risk of death in combat against a wide range of foes. And there is never a situation where a TFT character can fight while heavily outnumbered without great risk (so, your favorite fighter can't single handedly slaughter 20 orcs unless there are some major tactical advantages on his or her side). On the other hand, nearly everything in the game is similarly vulnerable. Don't get me wrong; a 14 hex dragon is a really tough monster with an excellent chance of detonating your party. But almost nothing is invulnerable, and, overall, the power level, with respect to close combat, is relatively 'flat'. So that means your characters are exposed to risks if they fight, but they also always have a path to victory as well. Personally, I find that to be much more interesting and exciting than the high level D&D situation, where a bunch of foes are beneath your contempt, a bunch present threats and a bunch are outrageously more powerful than you. It means characters are always deliberating about whether and how to fight a foe, and the exact match ups and situations are more important. That means fighting is closer to roleplaying, which makes it more fun.
A second thing people often point out is the lack of clerical healing in TFT. True, but also misleading. The game has physicker talents that are quite effective, armor (esp. fine and magic armor) that is effective, and healing potions, if your party has an alchemist, or your GM chooses to hand them out as a way of encouraging people to fight more often. And, because your 'hit points' don't scale up with experience in the same way, you need less healing. So, I'd say I agree that you can't use clerical healing to 'reboot' after every fight, and so you are more likely to end up with a real injury that leaves you stove up for a week or two. I sort of prefer that, but if you hate it then its the wrong game for you.
A third thing people don't talk about much but should is how things like traps, secret doors, etc. translate. Here TFT is actually a better system than any standard edition of D&D because it has cooked into it a very well designed system of clear rules governing spotting, avoiding and disarming. It also has a clear, concrete rules governing the navigation of obstacles, such as climbing or jumping over gaps. That means complicated tactical spaces are easier to fit into combat naturally and following rules everyone at the table knows.
In summary: a highly recommended approach to old-school dungeons of all sorts!
Well, more are being published all the time now at least, so maybe we'll see a published TFT version of a real megadungeon. We never played in dungeons at all in my longest running TFT campaign, it was all outside world adventures, and fights were always a big thing when they happened. But long term adventures is the thing. A lot of D&D adventures feature big dungeons that you kind of need to get through in one go. That changes the dynamic when healing is a lot more limited (but not nonexistant). In a megadungeon that you can just enter and leave as you wish, yeah, maybe you need to make more trips than the D&D characters or whatnot, but that's totally doable. But if it's more a "you're stuck here until you get out", how have you dealt with that? I'm genuinely asking here because I'd like to try using some scenarios for D&D in TFT instead.TFT dungeons are generally short because not very many have been published, and the people who published and most of those are short. I have home cooked TFT megadungeons and I'm sure other long term players do as well. The system is awesome for that kind of play; you just need to approach long term adventures a little differently than you might if you were running 20th level D&D demigods.
I think it could be done if the party can establish a base camp (or even a safe room) or make allies. You might need to hint at those options.But if it's more a "you're stuck here until you get out", how have you dealt with that? I'm genuinely asking here because I'd like to try using some scenarios for D&D in TFT instead.