Grim Dark Future. General discussion.

[Stumpydave]

My friends and I (after much badgering by me) have started playing One Page Rules 40k clone homage, Grim Dark Future.
For someone as rules and maths phobic as me, it's a revelation. It was the first wargame I've played in years that managed to evoke those tentative first games of orginal 40k.
So I didn't know/remember if anyone here had already mentioned it but thought it could be cool to discuss.

Given it's early days, we're only playing/building small lists. 750pts at the moment.
I'm aiming for a Thunder Warrior army using the "I can't believe its not Blood Angel Primaris" list, only swapping out Fearless ( a plus to morale checks) rule for Robot (automatically pass morale but risk wounds instead) to replicate the risk of genemod rejection and sudden organ failure.

 

[Atelerix]

Both the main rules and the Firefight skirmish game are tight. Alternating activation works really well (unsurprisingly) and prevents alpha strikes. With only 4 turns, every game I've played has gone down to the last couple of actions. It's a lot of fun.

It's not perfect - the rulebook can be a little too terse at times. The psychic and vehicle rules seem a little light, but I can live with that. It certainly isn't a simulation game, but nor is it intended to be.

We found the Prime Brothers and not-Custodes chewed through other armies, but focus on the objectives and you can beat them

I think if you treat it as its own thing, rather than another attempt at a 40k ruleset, you'll be happier. With the creator's STL Patreon, it's definitely changing. It does make for a fast, fun game with 40k models though.

Played from 1000pts up to multiplayer 6000 pt battles and it scales without becoming too exhausting.

 

[Stumpydave]

These are my Thunder Warriors for GDF - all 3d printed (whole army probably costs £10 in resin and PLA).

I love the background to the Thunder Warriors, especially the whole 'burns twice as bright' schtick.

This is what should have been introduced instead of Primaris.

 

[David Johansen]

I've always thought Thunder Warriors fighting to unify Earth would be a fantastic concept for a high powered skirmish game using =][=nquisitor (of course).

I even did some sculpts, art, and preliminary writing.

 

[David Johansen]

The problem, of course, is that I don't own the property or the mechanics and by the time I rub off the serial numbers and use different mechanics, it's really lost the selling point of being a game about the Thunder Warriors subduing Holy Mother Terra for the Emperor.

 

[Stumpydave]

The problem, of course, is that I don't own the property or the mechanics and by the time I rub off the serial numbers and use different mechanics, it's really lost the selling point of being a game about the Thunder Warriors subduing Holy Mother Terra for the Emperor.

Have you thought of filing the serial numbers off of Moorcock's 'Hawkmoon'?

 

[CRKrueger]

The Unification Wars would be a great campaign setting. The various geneforged troops like the Udug Hul of the Great King of Akkad, Sorcerer Kings like Kalagann of Ursh and the Priest-King of Maulland Sen, the endless list of tyrants: Cardinal Tang, Uilleam the Red, The Ur-Queen of Atlan, Dalmoth Kyn, The Unspeakable King, and the greatest of them all, Narthan Dume. Hell, throw in Khan Noonian Singh while you’re at it, that description of Earth sounds a lot like the Age of Strife.

It’s a cross between Heavy Metal, 2000AD, Ralph Bakshi’s Wizards & Moorcock.

The Great Crusade wouldn’t be a bad “Alternate Era” setting either.

 

[David Johansen]

Have you thought of filing the serial numbers off of Moorcock's 'Hawkmoon'?

Not really, I think I read one of those once. Long, long ago. There's a point at which that which you are stealing from is sufficiently obscure as to offer no real advantage over doing your own thing. Cool as it probably is, Hawkmoon is probably in that category.

 

[Stumpydave]

So what we need to identify is what makes these particular settings evocative and roll from there.

Is there a name for the melding swords and sorcery with far future, post apocalyptic Earth?

 

[David Johansen]

Vancian?

 

[CRKrueger]

So what we need to identify is what makes these particular settings evocative and roll from there.

Is there a name for the melding swords and sorcery with far future, post apocalyptic Earth?

I’ve heard the terms “Swords and Super-Science” or “Swords, Sorcery and Super-Science.”

”Seventies Science-Fantasy and the works of authors influenced by it” is kind of unwieldy though.

 

[Ladybird]

The Unification Wars would be a great campaign setting. The various geneforged troops like the Udug Hul of the Great King of Akkad, Sorcerer Kings like Kalagann of Ursh and the Priest-King of Maulland Sen, the endless list of tyrants: Cardinal Tang, Uilleam the Red, The Ur-Queen of Atlan, Dalmoth Kyn, The Unspeakable King, and the greatest of them all, Narthan Dume. Hell, throw in Khan Noonian Singh while you’re at it, that description of Earth sounds a lot like the Age of Strife.

It’s a cross between Heavy Metal, 2000AD, Ralph Bakshi’s Wizards & Moorcock.

The Great Crusade wouldn’t be a bad “Alternate Era” setting either.

My knowledge of that era is lacking; were there trained psykers other than the Emperor at the time?

 

[Ben Adams]

So what we need to identify is what makes these particular settings evocative and roll from there.

Is there a name for the melding swords and sorcery with far future, post apocalyptic Earth?

Sword & Bolt?

 

[Ben Adams]

I will say; I've never been a war gamer though I've liked the lore and models. But One Page Rules (and Mechwarrior 5) have really turned me onto it.

 

[Stumpydave]

I've written a fan army book for GDF based on the Genetic Infantry from Rogue Trooper.
I'd appreciate any feedback.

https://army-forge.onepagerules.com/armyBookSelection?gameSystem=gf&armyId=N4VRDZ0ZIjHu0lk9

 

[CRKrueger]

My knowledge of that era is lacking; were there trained psykers other than the Emperor at the time?

Yeah, during reunification, there were Sorcerer Kings, like Narthan Dume, and powerful psykers. I don’t think there was a whole lot of “our platoon has a Sanctioned Psyker“ kind of deal. Malcador was the last of the Sigillites and the most powerful psyker on earth after the Emperor. Of any other organized cults/secret societies, there’s not a major mention.

 

[AppleJax]

We need more alternatives to GW. Monopolies are bad for consumers.

 

[David Johansen]

I've said many, many times that all the guys producing GW knockoffs should get behind a single rule set and setting. Grim Dark Future may well be that.

 

[AppleJax]

I've said many, many times that all the guys producing GW knockoffs should get behind a single rule set and setting. Grim Dark Future may well be that.

I think people should make new IPs rather than ripoffs. Like Moonbreaker.

 

[David Johansen]

I agree but have observed over the years that the knockoffs survive and thrive and the new IPs wither and die on the vine. I've really lost faith in the willingness of people in this hobby to think for themselves.

 

[AppleJax]

I agree but have observed over the years that the knockoffs survive and thrive and the new IPs wither and die on the vine. I've really lost faith in the willingness of people in this hobby to think for themselves.

You and me both.

 

[Ladybird]

We need more alternatives to GW. Monopolies are bad for consumers.

Er... GW don't have a monopoly, though? There are loads of other games and minis manufacturers. They don't even have a walled garden, because once you have figures, there are so many other games you can play with them (Because, let's be blunt here, an Orruk and an Orc - let's say - are close enough to being the same thig) - the minis are still useful outside the official game (Unlike, say, CCG cards). You can even play their games without their models. What you can't do is enter their spaces and events and use models and rules outside of what they publish, but... oh well?

They're also producing a luxury good, rather than a basic necessity, so if they want to price themselves out of their market, that's their problem - customers don't have to follow.

They're really popular and have hit pop culture in a way few other hobby games ever have, yes, but that is not the same thing.

 

[David Johansen]

It's people's head space they have a monopoly on.

 

[Ladybird]

It's people's head space they have a monopoly on.

I'm not fan of capitalism, but putting out products that grab folks' attentions and thus winning at it doesn't make them a monopoly.

 

[David Johansen]

I always find people are dumbfounded that Games Workshop neither invented miniatures nor miniatures wargames.

 

[AppleJax]

They're really popular and have hit pop culture in a way few other hobby games ever have, yes, but that is not the same thing.

I'm not fan of capitalism, but putting out products that grab folks' attentions and thus winning at it doesn't make them a monopoly.

Maybe not legally, but I still don’t consider that healthy. We’re in an age where media is hugely consolidating, resulting in most IPs being owned by a handful of companies. There’s very few IPs still supported, with the rest locked in copyright jail and preventing anyone else from using similar ideas for fear of being sued. There’d no checks and balances in place when these corpos inevitably screw up. The media landscape is bland and homogeneous now. It’s coinciding with a general decrease in the education and creativity of the populace. The indie scene is insanely lopsided and trend-driven.

I’m completely disinterested in 40k because it’s Ultrasmurf wank. What IPs are even remotely viable as competitors to 40k? I haven’t found any.

I’m hoping Moonbreaker might shake things up and break GW’s stranglehold. But I’m not holding my breath.

 

[David Johansen]

Boy, I've sure backed a lot of horses on that hope over the years. Kill Zone,Kryomek, Vor, Void, $tarcorp$, Warpath, Beyond the Gates of Antares. And that's just the sf ones.

The reality is that most people don't have room in their head for more than one object in a category they don't give a shit about and those who are interested are generally frothing fanboyz until they realize GW doesn't love them and then most of those walk away without looking around.

 

[CRKrueger]

Unfortunately Warhammer Fantasy and especially 40k got in on the ground floor of the Skirmish Miniature Zeitgeist both with systems and setting. They're in the mortar of the foundations of the hobby.

I'm sure Antares is a great game, same with Infinity, Warpath, etc. But I'm not looking at getting into Skirmish Wargaming from the side of that hobby. I'm always coming from the RPG side and looking for minis I can use with RPGs. That why I don't really have many tanks and fliers. Mostly infantry with transports, but I do have a Land Raider, Predator, Demolisher, a couple Speeders, some Trukks, Bikes and Koptas etc.

When it comes to Space Hulk games, for example, I'd rather use Deathwatch RPG, Savage Rifts or something with my Termies and Genestealers rather than the boardgame rules.

 

[AppleJax]

Boy, I've sure backed a lot of horses on that hope over the years. Kill Zone,Kryomek, Vor, Void, $tarcorp$, Warpath, Beyond the Gates of Antares. And that's just the sf ones.

The reality is that most people don't have room in their head for more than one object in a category they don't give a shit about and those who are interested are generally frothing fanboyz until they realize GW doesn't love them and then most of those walk away without looking around.

I’ve looked up a number of those but they all blur together in my head. All I remember is space elves who use robot drones, space rat men, virus infected mutants, and something about colonists who contracted alien lycanthropy and became wolfmen.

I have the same problem with fantasy. I’ve seen so many recycled tropes. Everything just blurs together after a while.

 

[David Johansen]

Yeah that would be Warpath / Firefight. Mantic's looking at doing an 'epic' game in their universe but it's probably going to match GW's scale.

Kill Zone is Nick Lund's rules for Mark Copplestone's Future Warriors figures from Grenadier. It's a neat little game that had really low production values and really nice miniatures. Well, okay those early resin vehicles kinda sucked but I love Mark Copplestone's style and sense of humour. I've got a ton of these painted up.

Kryomek is humans verses acid bugs similar to Aliens but with penal troopers with explosive collars. The quality of the figures is mixed but the Talos units and Kryomek Warriors are some damn fine minis. I suspect Kryomek failed because it was too narrow with only two factions. But the rules are complex and there's no point system though I think the activation system probably makes putting everything on the table ineffective. It's still available from Scotia / Grendal.

Vor is FASA/Ral Partha's attempt at a GW beater. The setting is that a giant alien maelstrom named Vor has devoured Earth and lots of other places and everyone's fighting each other instead of it. It's got lots of weird races the core game is Yankees verses Growlers which are hilarously cartoonish elemental ape guys with metal bones and teeth. The neatest race in the game is the Golem who only got two minis but they're basically a whole race of Darksied and Thanos. Vor probably failed because it was to weird/silly and all metal.

VOID is a science fiction game by the people who were left out in the cold when Warzone was abandoned by its parent company. The sculpts are usually decent and the game is essentially a d10 based version of Warhammer. There's some neat factions and it's still around as Urban War. Really it's got a better survival history than Warzone but it's also got a smaller fan base.

Beyond the Gates of Antares is Warlord Games and Rick Priestly's science fiction game which is basically d10 Bolt Action with drones aliens. It's really neat but maybe just a little too weird for people. Lots of nice plastic sets there. It's semi abandoned / spun off to a sub company but it was going to get a second edition right before covid hit.

I really wish Beyond the Gates of Antares and Firefight/Warpath had a bit more support for other company's miniatures like Kings of War and Warlords of Erewhon do.

At present Northstar and Osprey's Stargrave is probably the best option. Lots of nice plastic kits, simple, playable rules, good production values.

 

[AppleJax]

I have some ideas for a setting inspired by 90s scifi. It would feature three species similar to AVP, Halo or Starcraft. Just three, so that I could focus more attention on them.

But I don’t see any point in pursuing it further. Pop culture is stuck in a monopolistic IP death spiral.

 

[David Johansen]

The hard thing is standing out while not being derivative. Games Workshop did it by bringing in fantasy, medieval, and age of reason imagery in a well constructed cockail that hangs together pretty well. It works and makes some sense as a setting. They have a look that is all its own while stealing so rampantly that everything else looks derivative of it. People look at just about anything science fantasy and ask "is this Warhammer?"

For straight up science fiction you've got Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Starship Troopers, Far Scape, Firefly, Red Dwarf and so many others that they start to blur together. You've got aesthetics ranging from industrial to slick to anime. I think Infinity does a pretty good job of the Slick Anime look of things like Akira, Ghost In the Shell, and Gundam.

There is a lot of fantasy in the Age of Reason or Black Powder area, there is a lot of modern fantasy and weird twentith century of all stripes, so the question becomes, "is there a niche or style that isn't already overwhelmingly over represented?" Stargrave manages a nice generic look with plenty of options but lands firmly in the face putty aliens realm.

I've always thought the Space Master Privateers setting would make a good wargame setting. High tech with furries and powered armour and jetbikes isn't really heavily represented in the miniatures gaming field.

But then I've also got a notion for a really dark and gritty cyberpunk world where the result of 100 years of video games is the fur suit's absolute domination of the fashion field. Not furry aliens, furry cyberpunks in nanogel powered mascot style fur suits.

 

[AppleJax]

Firefly is good but dead, Starship Troopers is shit and mostly dead, Star Wars is shit and dying, Star Trek is shit and dying, Babylon 5 is good and dead but will be turned to shit by the reboot, Farscape is dead… none of those IPs you mention have been good or relevant for decades.

 

[AppleJax]

Anyway, I’ll give Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy credit for being inclusive of non-GW army concepts. The space ratmen and shadow stalkers sound interesting.

On the other hand, their lore is nonexistent. Which in a way is a plus, because I’ve grown to hate the concept of lore as a killer of creativity. But it means you lack as much material to invent imaginary scenarios for why your miniatures are fighting. On the other hand, fans have the freedom to invent their own settings.

I’ve sometimes given thought to backgrounds for wargames, miniatures and video games alike. I had this idea for an Age of Fantasy-esque setting where there were multiple planets connected by stargates. Different planets could have different histories, giving more creative diversity than the Old World.

 

[DeadBob]

Thing is, there are absolutely tons on non-GW games in existence.

GW might die of its own accord, but I doubt anything is going to come along and kill it within it’s home turf niche.

If you want to see other games succeed, part of that is knowing what success means to you and whether or not a GW take down is part of you end goals.

Me, I’ve got crap tons of non-GW minis and games. It would be nice to see them get more play, but you really have to think of a different model of interaction, probably like the old-school game club model and how to promote that rather than efforts trying to pry GW from its self-created throne.

 

[K_Peterson]

I've yet to play a game of Grimdark Future but have played a little bit of Age of Fantasy. Cool and intuitive system.

I do have a variety of GF stl's, and have printed a good amount of Saurian Starhost. (And painted a fraction of them).

 

[David Johansen]

Firefly is good but dead, Starship Troopers is shit and mostly dead, Star Wars is shit and dying, Star Trek is shit and dying, Babylon 5 is good and dead but will be turned to shit by the reboot, Farscape is dead… none of those IPs you mention have been good or relevant for decades.

I'll agree with your assessment of the properties as business. but it's the visual image library that takes up space in people's heads and makes them say "oh yeah, I've seen this before".

This isn't necessarilhy a bad thing. GW's bread and butter is combining familiar imagery in a science fantasy milleu. But that only makes them harder to contend with. The imperial guard alone covers a broad swath of themes and renders any space Russian, space Arabs, space Mongols, and many others derivitive of Warhammer in the public mind. It's a neat trick if annoying in its effectiveness.

 

[AppleJax]

I'll agree with your assessment of the properties as business. but it's the visual image library that takes up space in people's heads and makes them say "oh yeah, I've seen this before".

This isn't necessarilhy a bad thing. GW's bread and butter is combining familiar imagery in a science fantasy milleu. But that only makes them harder to contend with. The imperial guard alone covers a broad swath of themes and renders any space Russian, space Arabs, space Mongols, and many others derivitive of Warhammer in the public mind. It's a neat trick if annoying in its effectiveness.

Which is why I opted for the humans in my scifi setting to be space Yankees. Apple pie, cheeseburgers, French fries, crispy tacos, fortune cookies, Russian dressing, pizza, sugary desert foods refined from fossil fuels and seaweed, baseball, gridiron, soccer, cowboys, lumberjacks, coal miners, hillbillies, the Internet, eagles, etc.

 

[Smithnikov]

They're really popular and have hit pop culture in a way few other hobby games ever have, yes, but that is not the same thing.

It almost is. There are people who unironically consider there to be nothing else in the miniatures wargaming scene. Hell, 40k has become synonymous with it.

As for alternate sci settings, especially for wargaming, I've found myself drawn back to that old dog OGRE. Especially since I picked up an entire playable game, complete with minis/board/rules for around 40 bones.

 

[David Johansen]

I've got quite a bit of ogre but sadly current economics mean there won't be a conventional force for the other side in plastic any time soon.

I suppose this would be the place to mention that Mantic is suddenly interested in doing an epic scale Warpath game but it will probably be in resin to take advantage of the GW epic release.