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CRKrueger

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Adoption into a game is always tricky, has to be enough to make it interesting, but not so much to make the players eyes glaze over.

I'm a tech nerd. I can easily be dismissed as a gun bunny but that is simply because weapons are an area that many people will accept large lists. I could just as easily nerd out on flashlights, power tools etc but the vast majority of people are content with "Chainsaw, 1 Ea" completely oblivious that they come in different sizes, styles and chain construction. :dice:




The Soviets introduced a 7.62mm revolver machinegun in the 1930s that had a rate of fire of 1800 rounds per minute. This gun armed many of their fighters in the 1930s at a time most fighters were still armed as they had been in WW1 with two .30 cal machine guns firing 500-600 rounds per minute.

Revolver cannon don't typically have the same impressive rate if fire as the gatling designs (some firing 6000-8000 rounds per minute in sustained fire) but as you say the often overlooked part is it takes a bit to get those barrels turning at speed. During a typical 1/2 second burst the effective rate of fire is much closer.

Weight of fire is another factor when it comes to large automatic guns, particularly regarding aircraft. It isn't just how many bullets but also how big. The debate between lots of rifle caliber machines guns vs a couple of light cannons raged in the years leading up to WW2. In the end the cannon won out, with the exception of the US who as is typical made up their own rules and used the exceptional Browning .50 cal right on into the Korean War.

Anthony Williams has done a number of books on aircraft armament, which are very worthwhile for anybody interested in the subject.
Browning 50.cal? We still use Ma Deuce today.
 

Toadmaster

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Browning 50.cal? We still use Ma Deuce today.

But not as primary aircraft armament, the F86 Sabre was the last US fighter to enter service with a .50 cal armament. Sorry if it wasn't clear I was referring to aircraft guns. As a ground gun the .50 will probably keep chugging along for another 100 years.
 

Nobby-W

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Browning 50.cal? We still use Ma Deuce today.
Apparently the Merkins have M2's still in service with serial numbers dating back to the 1920s - all upgraded to modern spec.

Browning was decades ahead of his time. Quite apart from the M2 (which is about to reach its centennary), most automatic pistols are based on an action designed by Browning, and the M1911 and GP35 are still in production (FN ceased in the mid 2010s but it's still made by third parties). FN was still making his turn-of-the-century pocket pistol designs until the 1980s. Also, several models of Winchester lever action rifles were designed by Browning and are still in production today with only minor changes (120-140 years in continuous production), plus a widely used model of autoloading shotgun.

Fun fact: The GP35 was designed to get around patents on the M1911 that Browning had sold to Colt. Although it only went into production in 1935 the design goes back to the first half of the 1920s.

In terms of historical influence, Browning is up there with Kalashnikov, Stoner or Mauser.
 
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AsenRG

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Apparently the Merkins have M2's still in service with serial numbers dating back to the 1920s - all upgraded to modern spec.

Browning was decades ahead of his time. Quite apart from the M2 (which is about to reach its centennary), most automatic pistols are based on an action designed by Browning, and the M1911 and GP35 are still in production (FN ceased in the mid 2010s but it's still made by third parties). FN was still making his turn-of-the-century pocket pistol designs until the 1980s. Also, several models of Winchester lever action rifles were designed by Browning and are still in production today with only minor changes (120-140 years in continuous production), plus a widely used model of autoloading shotgun.

Fun fact: The GP35 was designed to get around patents on the M1911 that Browning had sold to Colt. Although it only went into production in 1935 the design goes back to the first half of the 1920s.

In terms of historical influence, Browning is up there with Kalashnikov, Stoner or Mauser.
I thought Colt is no longer producing M1911 A1?

And I suspect that you mean Steier in the last paragraph, though certainly the influence of stoners in warfare is not to be underestimated:shade:.
 

Bunch

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I thought Colt is no longer producing M1911 A1?

And I suspect that you mean Steier in the last paragraph, though certainly the influence of stoners in warfare is not to be underestimated:shade:.
Didn't Stoner make the M16?
 

Nobby-W

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I thought Colt is no longer producing M1911 A1?
Not sure if Colt is, but pretty much everybody else and their dog are.
And I suspect that you mean Steier in the last paragraph, though certainly the influence of stoners in warfare is not to be underestimated:shade:.
I was talking about Eugene Stoner, the guy who designed the AR-15.
 

AsenRG

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Didn't Stoner make the M16?
#Learningsomethingnewaboutgunhistoryeveryday

Not sure if Colt is, but pretty much everybody else and their dog are.
...point taken:smile:.
I was talking about Eugene Stoner, the guy who designed the AR-15.
OK, I didn't know that name. So my conclusion was that your post had been written in co-autorship with Autocorrect:wink:!
 

Toadmaster

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Apparently the Merkins have M2's still in service with serial numbers dating back to the 1920s - all upgraded to modern spec.

Browning was decades ahead of his time. Quite apart from the M2 (which is about to reach its centennary), most automatic pistols are based on an action designed by Browning, and the M1911 and GP35 are still in production (FN ceased in the mid 2010s but it's still made by third parties). FN was still making his turn-of-the-century pocket pistol designs until the 1980s. Also, several models of Winchester lever action rifles were designed by Browning and are still in production today with only minor changes (120-140 years in continuous production), plus a widely used model of autoloading shotgun.

Fun fact: The GP35 was designed to get around patents on the M1911 that Browning had sold to Colt. Although it only went into production in 1935 the design goes back to the first half of the 1920s.

In terms of historical influence, Browning is up there with Kalashnikov, Stoner or Mauser.

Another little known fact, John Browning's father Johnathan Browning was a gunsmith who designed an early repeating rifle which he manufactured during the 1830s.

Also I don't think there is any controversy in calling John Browning one of the most significant gun designers in the history of firearms. :thumbsup:
 

tenbones

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Lucky Gunner is good peeps. I buy ammo from him.
 

Toadmaster

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Lucky Gunner is good peeps. I buy ammo from him.


I only follow half a dozen or so gun channels but Lucky Gunner, makes the cut. Unfortunately they can't / won't currently sell in my state for reasons that shouldn't be discussed here so I can not patronize their business. :goof:
 

Toadmaster

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We've talked about guns, and bullets but not much on magazines "aka the thingy what holds the bullets"

But first a bit of pedantry, magazines vs clips...

A clip is a specific piece of hardware that holds cartridges, it may or may not remain with the gun after the ammunition is loaded.

A magazine is the ammunition feeding device that contains the ammunition and is a part of the gun. Magazines may be fixed or detachable, but if the magazine is removed the gun becomes a single shot weapon, and in some cases may be rendered unable to fire. Many modern semi-auto pistols have a magazine safety preventing them from firing without the magazine in place.

All repeating firearms require a feed device, the vast majority use some form of magazine. Clip is a common (but incorrect) slang term for detachable box magazine. This will be explained in more depth below.


Magazine types


Tubular magazine (1855)
- One of the first successful magazines developed, the cartridges are held in a spring loaded tube. The majority of tubular magazines are mounted under the barrel, but some firearms have mounted the tube above or beside the barrel. Less common some like the 1860 Spencer rifle have the tube located in the butt stock behind the action. A few weapons have used more than one tube for added capacity, but this is rare.

Tubular magazines fell out of favor for military rifles in the 1890s for two primary reasons. The first was the development of box magazines which could use clips to quickly reload the weapon. The second was the adoption of pointed Spitzer bullets which are generally unsafe to use in tubular magazines. Tubular magazines continue to be popular with shotguns and lever action rifles.

Advantages:
Tubular magazines are relatively compact compared to other types since the cartridges are inline with the barrel.

Winchester introduced the side loading gate in 1866, since then most tubular magazines can be reloaded without disabling the magazine or weapon. This helps to offset their slow reload speed since a shooter can top up the magazine whenever they have an opportunity. This also makes them easy to use with special projectiles. Since a cartridge can be loaded into the magazine, and then chambered by running the action it is easy to quickly load and fire different kinds of projectiles as needed, without losing the ability to fire the weapon if an unexpected target appears. This is particularly useful with shotguns since there is a wide range of ammunition available for them.

Disadvantages:
Tubular magazines are relatively slow to reload since most have to be reloaded one round at a time. This was not an issue when most rifles were single shot weapons, but it eventually led to their decline on military weapons. Capacity is also limited by barrel length, since it makes little sense to have a magazine extending beyond the end of the barrel.

Since the cartridges sit nose to tail, with center fire cartridges the tip of one bullet often touches the primer on cartridge in front of it. This was not an issue with rim fire cartridges, and is only a minor issue with center fire cartridges using with flat or round nose bullets. However when used with pointed bullets the recoil of firing can potentially result in a bullet striking a primer hard enough to detonate it which will cause severe damage to the weapon and potentially injure the shooter.
Early tubular magazines as used on the Henry and Spencer rifles required opening the end of the magazine to load. This temporarily disabled the magazine and unlike the later magazines with a side loading gate, the last round loaded will be the last fired, so it is not quick or easy to load a special round for the next shot.

Exceptions:
Spencer rifles used a tubular magazine in the stock of the gun. To load the end cap and spring assembly was removed, and the cartridges inserted. This allowed reloads to be carried in a tube which could then be dumped into the open end of magazine allowing for very rapid rapid reloads. Spencer rifles used rim fire cartridges so this method of loading was safe. Care is recommended reloading this way on modern reproduction Spencer rifles using center fire cartridges, as even with round nose bullets there is a slight risk that a bullet could impact a primer hard enough to cause it to detonate.

The French 1886 Lebel rifle was one of the few military rifles using a tubular magazine to serve during World War 1. Because the 8mm Lebel cartridge has a severe taper to it, the cartridges lay at an angle in the magazine where the pointed tip of Spitzer bullets do not line up with the primer in front of it.


Box magazine (1879) - There are two basic types of box magazine, the fixed or integral box magazine and the now very common detachable box magazine. Box magazines have become the most common feed device used on repeating rifles. In a box magazine the ammunition lays parallel to the action and is stacked vertically. Box magazines usually feed from below although side and top loading magazines exist. Ammunition in a box magazine is generally arranged in a single stack (1 row), or double stack (2 rows) but there are magazines with 3, 4 or even more rows of ammunition. Single stack magazines are the easiest to design / manufacture but they quickly become long and unwieldy at higher capacities. Magazines with two or more columns trade length for width. A 10 round double stack magazine will be approximately the same length but about twice the width of a single stack 5 round magazine.

Magazines with 2 or more columns are described as single feed, double feed (or more). A double stack, single feed magazine narrows at the top to a single column of ammunition which feeds into the weapon. This type makes the design of the weapon easier since the ammo feeds from the same position every time, but it can result in reliability issues for the magazine since the ammunition is essentially squeezed as it approaches the top. This "squeezing" also makes reloading more difficult as the spring tension increases greatly for the last few rounds. Double feed (or greater) means the ammunition feeds right from the column of ammo in it in. This requires a more complex weapon design, but results in more reliable magazines.

Box magazines solve many issues, providing a relatively compact and secure feed mechanism. One draw back caused by the vertically stacked cartridges is the capacity is often limited by the length of magazine extending from the weapon. Many early magazine fed rifles held only a few cartridges because the military wanted the profile of the rifle to closely resemble the single shot weapons being replaced. As ammunition capacity increased magazines were often limited to 10 or 20 rounds to prevent interfering with a soldiers ability to use a weapon from a prone position. Side and top mount box magazines were adopted on some submachineguns and light machine guns to allow larger magazines to be used.

Detachable Box magazine: The first successful box magazine was a detachable type and not much different than the detachable box magazine used by most modern military rifles. The cartridges are contained inside of a stamped metal housing which provides some protection from the elements, although some magazines include holes or even cut away sections to allow a shooter to see how many rounds remain in the magazine. Materials other than metal including Bakelite and fiberglass have been used, and many modern magazines are made of polymers. Some polymer magazines are clear or include clear sections allowing the ammunition inside to be viewed. Most detachable box magazines include a set of feed lips, this is a critical part that interacts with the weapon to control the feeding of ammunition. Many weapon malfunctions are a direct result of damage to this part of the magazine.

Integral box magazine: Similar in function to a detachable box magazine but these are a permanent part of the gun. Since they can rely on parts of the stock and receiver for support there is a saving of materials and weight. Also as they are not a readily removable part of the weapon there is little chance for loss, or damage. Integral magazines are usually built to a higher standard than detachable box magazines which results in greater reliability. Integral box magazines remain very common on modern bolt action sporting rifles.

Even though some of the first box magazines were detachable, the idea of issuing spare magazines for reloading the weapon took decades to develop. As a result non-removable integral magazines were not seen to be a limitation. It was not until the development of light machineguns and submachineguns during WW1 that much thought was given to the idea of issuing spare loaded magazines. Even by the 1960s it was not uncommon for rifles with detachable magazines to be issued with just a few magazines with most of the spare ammunition being carried in clips.


Clips (1886) - Most clips are directly related to the box magazine. A clip (rather than a magazine) holds the ammunition as a small packet of usually 3-10 rounds. As they just hold the ammunition they can be very cheap, simple and lightweight. Most clips can be reused but they are generally considered to be a disposable item.

There are two main types of clips, and they developed at about the same time in the late 1880s. Most clips just consist of a piece of stamped sheet metal, either steel or brass. There are no springs or moving parts involved making them much easier to manufacture than a detachable box magazine. This helps to explain why they remained the standard method of reloading military rifles for more than 60 years.

Stripper clip (aka charger): A simple strip of brass or steel is bent to hold the rim of the cartridges. In use the action is opened (bolt pulled to the rear) and the clip of cartridges is held against a set of grooves cut into the top of the action to ensure the ammunition is lined up with the magazine. The loader then uses their thumb to push the cartridges off of the clip and down into the magazine. The clip is then removed and the action closed leaving the weapon ready to fire.

Stripper clips are essentially just a speed loader. While slower the magazine can still be loaded with single rounds if no clip is available. Single rounds are also used to top off a magazine since it is impractical to load less than the full capacity of the clip. Some weapons like the Lee Enfield used 5 round stripper clips with a 10 round magazine. This allows a soldier to reload after shooting 5 rounds, leaving 5 rounds in reserve for emergencies. Stripper clips are not universal, but many clips of the same caliber and capacity will work in a variety of weapons. A weapon has to be designed to use a stripper clip, and most that do are military weapons. As detachable box magazines grew in favor, some were designed to allow the magazines to be directly loaded from stripper clips. Most stripper clips hold 5 rounds, but there are some holding as many as 15-20 rounds. Most have no dedicated top or bottom ammunition being fed off the clip equally well in either direction.

Examples of stripper clips

1598830530698.png
1598830568466.png



En bloc clip: Also known as Mannlicher clips after the gun designer who helped to popularize their use. Where stripper clips just grasp the base of the cartridge, en bloc clips typically enclose 1/3 to 3/4 of the cartridge case. To load the weapon, the entire package is pushed into the magazine and the clip remains in the weapon until the last shot is fired. On most weapons that use en bloc clips, the clip drops out the bottom of the rifle when the last round is chambered. A few weapons instead eject the clip out the top of the action when the last round is fired. Like stripper clips En bloc clips can be re-used but they are easily damaged and considered a disposable item.

Unlike a stripper clip, the en bloc clip is required to allow the magazine to function. Without the clip the weapon becomes a single shot weapon. The design also requires that the clip be fully loaded to be inserted into the weapon. Since it is not possible to load single rounds into the magazine, most weapons using en bloc clips can quickly eject the clip and all of the unspent rounds by opening the action and pushing a release lever. The ammunition is usually ejected quite vigorously, so unless the shooter has their hand in place to catch the ammunition, it will be scattered across the ground like an expended cartridge case.

Some en block clips have a distinct top and bottom requiring that they only be loaded one way. Others are universal and designed to be loaded from either end.

Examples of en bloc clips

1598831219566.png

1598831278206.png

1598831336629.png



Half moon and full moon clips (1900) - Unrelated to the above, these are a simple semi or full circular piece of flat metal, with notches cut to hold the base of a cartridge. They were developed for revolvers and somewhat resemble modern speed loaders. Further detail will be provided when revolvers are covered.


Rotary Box magazine (1886) - Similar to the box magazine, but the cartridges are held in a spiral instead of columns. This results in a shorter but wider arrangement for the cartridges. Rotary box magazines have been made in both fixed and detachable forms. They have a reputation for being very reliable, but they are more complex and tend to be heavier than a standard box magazine. Rotary box magazines rarely hold more than 10 rounds. Like other box magazines they can be loaded with clips. Some weapons can use both a rotary and conventional detachable box magazine, often using a rotary magazine to provide a smaller capacity but flush fitting magazine, or a larger capacity conventional magazine that extends below the rifle.


Helical Magazine (1873) - The helical magazine sort of resembles a cross between a rotary box magazine and a tubular magazine. The cartridges are contained in a large tubular housing, but instead of just laying nose to tail as in a tubular magazine, they follow a spiral pattern similar to the rotary box magazine. These magazines can contain a large number of rounds, but have not proven to be a popular choice for weapons designers, although the idea has been revisited many times.


Drum Magazine (1900) - These are large capacity magazines with many holding 50-100 rounds. They somewhat resembles a detachable box magazine with the cartridges stacked parallel a circular pattern around the axis. Many are designed to fit into the magazine well of a detachable box fed weapon allowing the option of a large capacity drum, or smaller box magazine. Many drum magazines use a spring powered clock work mechanism which is wound up after loading, In appearance drum magazines are typically a short, wide cylinder. Drum magazines became popular on automatic weapons due to their high capacity, but they are heavy, bulky and more complex so detachable box magazines are generally preferred. They can also be noisier than a box magazine as the cartridges can often shift and rattle as the weapon is carried.


Pan Magazine (1900) - Very similar to the drum magazine, but instead of the rounds following a circular pattern in the vertical plane, the cartridges lay flat pointing inward towards the axis. This results in a very flat but wide profile. Pan magazines were most commonly used on light machineguns during WW1 and WW2. They are not commonly found on weapons designed after the 1930s.


Hopper (1862) - An open top box which can be filled with cartridges, these are then (usually) gravity fed into the action. First used on the Gatling gun during the American Civil War. A hopper feed is generally limited to large semi-fixed mount weapons. There have been a few examples of weapons using a hopper feed device using a lid and spring pressure to allow the weapon to be more mobile and not reliant on gravity to feed the cartridges into the action. The Japanese Type 11 light machinegun is an example of this, which also made use of standard 5 round rifle stripper clips.

Belt (1886) - Belt fed weapons use a section of flexible material to hold the cartridges. Initially these were a strip of fabric with pockets sewed on to hold the cartridges in place. Fabric was cheap and lightweight, but could be effected by environmental conditions such as water and mud. More durable metal link belts were soon being developed although fabric belts remained in wide use through both World Wars and remained in use until the last of the first generation machineguns left service in the 1960s. Metal link belts were being used by the end of WW1 and continue to be used to the present. Most belts hold 50-250 rounds of ammunition, although there are some holding more and less. Some belts can be linked together providing a theoretically endless supply of ammunition.

Disintegrating link belt (1917) - When machineguns were used on an aircraft, the spent ends of the fabric belts then in use could be an issue flapping in air stream. Belts using links that came apart as the weapon fired were developed as a solution, and were being introduced before the war ended. Although fabric belts remained in wide use, by WW2 the disintegrating link belt was well established and since the 1960s it is the most common type encountered
Most designs of disintegrating link belt come in 50 or 100 round lengths and multiple segments can be linked together to create longer belts. Belts are not universal, although most nations did standardize on one design for their weapons. In the 1960s NATO adopted a standardized belt for 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 12.7mm (.50 cal).

Metal Strip (1895) - An alternative to the fabric belt, these are a strip of metal or even a small tray holding the cartridges together. Much less flexible than a belt, strips tend to hold 20-30 rounds. Although less convenient than a belt, a new strip could be loaded into the gun as the prior strip was expended allowing the gun to maintain a high rate of fire when use with a crew of 2-3 men. Primarily found in use with Hotchkiss machineguns from WW1 and WW2.
 
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tenbones

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I just built this AR15 from scratch (my first) a couple of weeks ago. Optics (SIG Romeo Red Dot), sling and foregrip (Magpul angled) and Laser-Light combo are enroute. Those are standard 30-rd magazines. I plan on getting a 50-rd drum at some point.

Planning on building two more, the next will be an AR15 pistol (9" barrel) the other will be a long range AR10 chambered in 6.5 Creedmore with a Vortex scope, bipod and all the accouterments.

Wife and I are working on handguns - deciding which ones we're going to purchase. Right now Glock19(9mm) and S&W M&P2(9mm) are neck and neck. Price is a factor... but I'm eyeballing those SIG's and HK's.

OlPainlessjpg.jpg
 

Toadmaster

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I just built this AR15 from scratch (my first) a couple of weeks ago. Optics (SIG Romeo Red Dot), sling and foregrip (Magpul angled) and Laser-Light combo are enroute. Those are standard 30-rd magazines. I plan on getting a 50-rd drum at some point.

Planning on building two more, the next will be an AR15 pistol (9" barrel) the other will be a long range AR10 chambered in 6.5 Creedmore with a Vortex scope, bipod and all the accouterments.

Wife and I are working on handguns - deciding which ones we're going to purchase. Right now Glock19(9mm) and S&W M&P2(9mm) are neck and neck. Price is a factor... but I'm eyeballing those SIG's and HK's.

View attachment 21873


When you say built, are you talking about milling an 80% lower or you bought all the parts you like and put it together?

Without getting too political, I've gotten tired of trying to navigate all of my states laws just to put holes in paper targets and recently went full retro. I picked up an Italian reproduction Colt 1851 black powder revolver kit. It is functional out of the box, but rough finished so I will have to clean up all the rough edges, polish everything and then blue the steel parts. I jumped in with both feet, ordering a historically correct bullet mold for a Colt pattern conical bullet, and formers to make paper cartridges so I don't have to use loose powder and ball.

If I do it right it should look something like this when I'm done.

1598944051527.png


I'm getting an appreciation for how overlooked percussion guns are for post apocalypse gaming. They are miles ahead of flintlocks, but an order of magnitude easier to produce than cartridge weapons. It would not be that difficult for a dedicated individual to be fully self sufficient making their own black powder, percussion caps and casting their own bullets. Many people reload cartridges, but actually making smokeless powder, brass cases and primers would take a great deal of effort and a large investment in machinery. The guns themselves are also simpler and well within the means of a competent machinist to make from scratch using common scavenged metals. It would be very plausible for a small post apocalypse community of say 1000 people to have a functioning percussion firearms industry.

Many people have this idea that the the cap and ball weapons are under powered which is also often reflected in western games. This is somewhat true when compared to a modern (second half of the 20th century) smokeless powder weapon but most of the black powder handgun cartridges were designed to replicate the performance of the cap and ball revolvers. Many early smokeless powder cartridges continued to follow this trend as well. The .45 ACP (the standard handgun cartridge of the US Army from 1911 to the late 1980s) was meant to duplicate the ballistics of the black powder .45 Colt, and .45 Schofield revolvers which in turn, had tried to duplicate the ballistics of the Civil war era .44 caliber percussion revolvers.
Traditional loads of .38 Special compare pretty closely to the full size .36 caliber percussion revolvers like the Colt 1851, .36 caliber "pocket" revolvers (they must have had bigger pockets in the old west :grin: ) are a bit less powerful since they hold less powder and have shorter barrels. A Civil War era .44 caliber cap and ball revolver actually compares quite well in power to most military service handguns in use through the end of WW2. The late 1840s Colt Walker and Dragoon were among the most powerful handguns in the world until the .357 Magnum came along in the 1930s. They were also huge, weighing about 4 lbs although that is about the same weight as a modern "big" magnum handgun like the Desert Eagle.
 

tenbones

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When you say built, are you talking about milling an 80% lower or you bought all the parts you like and put it together?

Nope! (but that's on my to-do list, I don't own a drill-press... yet). I bought a stripped lower-receiver, upper-receiver, bolt group, barrel, Magpul furniture and all the rest of the parts and put it all together. Was a lot easier than I thought (except for launching my first detent pin into the abyss in my first try), as long as you have the tools.

I purposely built it in order to learn everything about the platform from the inside out. It's been very rewarding.

I'm seriously considering getting one of those Ghostgunner milling machines so I can make my own lower receivers. They're running about $2200, and now capable of milling stainless-steel, and the maker-community has put out some really interesting modifications for AR's, AK's and various pistol models.

Without getting too political, I've gotten tired of trying to navigate all of my states laws just to put holes in paper targets and recently went full retro.

I live in Texas. So the laws are pretty basic here. It's an interesting culture - and very much reminds of "gamer-culture" - everyone debating/arguing over their favorite platforms, calibers, etc. Ballistics debates are *EXACTLY* like debating which Edition systems are better in terms of performance. It's funny... gaming prepared me very well for Firearm culture. HAHAHA.

I picked up an Italian reproduction Colt 1851 black powder revolver kit. It is functional out of the box, but rough finished so I will have to clean up all the rough edges, polish everything and then blue the steel parts. I jumped in with both feet, ordering a historically correct bullet mold for a Colt pattern conical bullet, and formers to make paper cartridges so I don't have to use loose powder and ball.

If I do it right it should look something like this when I'm done.

View attachment 21875

Oh man. My dad was into black-powder. Like you he slid into naturally and then that's all he loved to shoot (outside his M14). My gaming>history interests ***REALLY*** makes black-powder attractive to me. I like the fiddly nature of it. It reminds me of my enjoyment of the ritual of my coffee-making, which I take "seriously".

Is it snobbery? LOL maybe? I just like "good" things. That Colt is BEAUTIFUL. But I must resist. I have too many expensive hobbies as it is. My daughter is collecting balisongs (and already my genes are kicking in and she's looking at swords... and learning to forge them).

I'm getting an appreciation for how overlooked percussion guns are for post apocalypse gaming. They are miles ahead of flintlocks, but an order of magnitude easier to produce than cartridge weapons. It would not be that difficult for a dedicated individual to be fully self sufficient making their own black powder, percussion caps and casting their own bullets. Many people reload cartridges, but actually making smokeless powder, brass cases and primers would take a great deal of effort and a large investment in machinery. The guns themselves are also simpler and well within the means of a competent machinist to make from scratch using common scavenged metals. It would be very plausible for a small post apocalypse community of say 1000 people to have a functioning percussion firearms industry.

This process of learning all the literal nuts-n'-bolts of putting together my AR has *really* made me appreciate the elegant simplicity, yet genius design of modern firearms - which obviously evolved from black-powder designs, which is precisely where my interests in gaming/history/firearms collide in a delicious stew of possibility.

Many people have this idea that the the cap and ball weapons are under powered which is also often reflected in western games. This is somewhat true when compared to a modern (second half of the 20th century) smokeless powder weapon but most of the black powder handgun cartridges were designed to replicate the performance of the cap and ball revolvers. Many early smokeless powder cartridges continued to follow this trend as well. The .45 ACP (the standard handgun cartridge of the US Army from 1911 to the late 1980s) was meant to duplicate the ballistics of the black powder .45 Colt, and .45 Schofield revolvers which in turn, had tried to duplicate the ballistics of the Civil war era .44 caliber percussion revolvers.

Well sure - compared to modern ballistics. But think of how *little* people had in precision ballistics testing "back in the day" - this is why I look at firearms like the one you're putting together like "art". It's aesthetically beautiful - and relative to its time, deadly as hell.

A corollary to this that hits right at the gaming table is that period where firearms and armor collide. Which of course is the "sweet" spot for those fantasy games that dabble in firearms. I think most games get a lot of it wrong, but they do so more out of ignorance of how firearm ballistics work, and this carries on into the system design.

Traditional loads of .38 Special compare pretty closely to the full size .36 caliber percussion revolvers like the Colt 1851, .36 caliber "pocket" revolvers (they must have had bigger pockets in the old west :grin: ) are a bit less powerful since they hold less powder and have shorter barrels. A Civil War era .44 caliber cap and ball revolver actually compares quite well in power to most military service handguns in use through the end of WW2. The late 1840s Colt Walker and Dragoon were among the most powerful handguns in the world until the .357 Magnum came along in the 1930s. They were also huge, weighing about 4 lbs although that is about the same weight as a modern "big" magnum handgun like the Desert Eagle.

Yeah I'd need to study the ballistics a bit. I literally know nothing about black-powder rounds in terms of their comparison to modern rounds. I've fired them a bunch for fun (and they're awesome fun... /must resist...) but I imagine, talking out of the side of my neck here, that within a certain range they should be very competitive.

I just did a lookup... Yeah man! That Colt cap-n'-ball has a muzzle velocity of 900ft/sec! That's CRAZY. A standard .45ACP round is about 830ft/sec. Wow, for it's time, that's a super effective for that time-period. Crazy. Beautiful. Fun. Must. Resist.
 

Toadmaster

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A little CNC mill would be neat, I have a small manual lathe and mill which are fun, but my skill is still very much in the development stage with them. I've thought about making a non-firing steam punk-ish monster revolver but currently lack the skills in either machining or metallurgy to even think about making something functional.
CNC and 3D printing has opened the doors for individuals to manufacture so many items, they are becoming a serious game changer. Local manufacture vs transportation costs may see a return to small cottage industries. Instead of going to the appliance store to order a part for your washing machine, Maytag may just email code to a guy down the street who can whip out the part. Definitely going to be giving lawmakers fits for years to come trying to adapt, they are still having a hard time with the internet and it is 25+ years old. :hehe:

I lived in Arizona for a few years, and much if my wife's family lives in AZ and TX. Different world, but I like water and there isn't a lot of it there. :smile: It was very cool for the old west history, I lived about an hour from Tombstone, and in fact got married in the historic tombstone courthouse.

I don't think gamers are unique in debating the finer points of pedantry. 9mm vs .45, Ford vs Chevy, Logan vs Southbend, AD&D vs 3E vs 5E vs OD&D all pretty much the same thing.

I've been readin a lot about this lately and I'm finding that a lot of the reputation with "weak" cap and ball revolvers come from its later use with very light loads. Serious gunfighters moved to cartridge weapons so the older cap and ball weapons tended to be used for more casual use, plinking, hunting small game and varmints, protection from snakes etc. Then the cowboy reenacting of the late 19th Century (continues to the present) where very light loads with their light recoil were very popular (it still makes a nice hole in paper or a clang on steel).

You can load a .36 Colt 1851 with an 80 grain round ball and 10 grains of powder providing something with the power of about .22 LR, or load a conical bullet of 125-147 grains over 20-25 grains of powder which is getting up there with a warm .38 Special or even a mild 9mm Parabellum. Remington revolvers could hold up to 30 grains of powder so could get a little more power. There are also some who say the black powder of the 1800s had a little more oomph than the modern stuff (quite possible since modern black powder is mostly recreational so may have made concessions to ease manufacture / increase safety).
A lot of modern BP shooters also use a felt wad behind the ball or bullet which takes up space for powder, where "back in the day" lube was placed over the bullet (in front of) to seal the chamber protecting from moisture and reducing the chance of chain fire.


In the vein of not helping :gunslinger: , BP is pretty cheap, a pound of BP is about $25 and is good for around 350 shots (assuming 20 grains per shot), 5lbs of lead, $15 (good for 280 bullets) and caps run about $6 / 100, about $0.17 a shot or about 1/2 the price of cheap 9mm and you cant shoot it up very fast.

Of course there is the initial purchase of lead melting pot, bullet molds, paper cartridge forming components etc... :ooh: Honestly all in I've probably spent less than the cost of a single modern handgun like a Glock.
 
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tenbones

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Omg... cost is no comparison.

Especially these days. The price of 5.56 has nearly doubled (or worse) in price in the last year or so. Now just finding any is a bit of a pain in the ass. You'll be lucky to find any in quantity for less than .70 cents/rd.
 

tenbones

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I don't want to derail your thread about historical weaponry either. I love it. I just am not as familiar. But in *gaming* terms - if you don't mind me chipping in with some modern stuff that might pertain to modern/cyberpunk-near future stuff I'd love to contribute more.

Like those low-chambered pistols - the Chiappa 'Rhino' and Laugo 'Alien'

/drool
 

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I don't want to derail your thread about historical weaponry either. I love it. I just am not as familiar. But in *gaming* terms - if you don't mind me chipping in with some modern stuff that might pertain to modern/cyberpunk-near future stuff I'd love to contribute more.

Like those low-chambered pistols - the Chiappa 'Rhino' and Laugo 'Alien'

/drool
The Rhino is what most of the hand cannons in Destiny 2 (I never played 1 long enough to get one) seem to be based off of.
 
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Toadmaster

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I don't want to derail your thread about historical weaponry either. I love it. I just am not as familiar. But in *gaming* terms - if you don't mind me chipping in with some modern stuff that might pertain to modern/cyberpunk-near future stuff I'd love to contribute more.

Like those low-chambered pistols - the Chiappa 'Rhino' and Laugo 'Alien'

/drool

Giganotosaurus started this thread, but this is an interest of mine and I seem to have kind of taken it over. Based on the weapon porn thread that inspired this one, I'd say everything is fair game, I certainly won't be put out if people get into near future, fantasy or sci-fi weapons. I enjoy well thought out future weapons and guns that never were but might have been.

I also think those revolvers that fire from the bottom chamber look interesting as well. The concept of lowering the bore makes sense, I'd be curious to see how they handle. There are a few semi-autos that put the recoil spring above the barrel giving a similar low bore offset appearance.

My only dislike with the current state of firearms is the diminishing variety, seems like everybody these days just issues a Glock or an AR variant.not that I can blame them practical is practical. I was really enjoying the trend in the early 2000s with the big bore AR conversions like the .458 SOCOM, .450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf etc, those just seemed so over the top, totally made for players to use in an RPG. Perfect gun to hunt dinosaurs quietly. :hehe:
 

tenbones

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My favorite review is from Matt Carriker from Demolition Ranch. He's local to San Antonio, very cool guy.

Demolition Ranch is an awesome channel (or was until YouTube started cracking down on firearms). But his "Off the Ranch" channel is awesome too.

 

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A little CNC mill would be neat, I have a small manual lathe and mill which are fun, but my skill is still very much in the development stage with them. I've thought about making a non-firing steam punk-ish monster revolver but currently lack the skills in either machining or metallurgy to even think about making something functional.
CNC and 3D printing has opened the doors for individuals to manufacture so many items, they are becoming a serious game changer. Local manufacture vs transportation costs may see a return to small cottage industries. Instead of going to the appliance store to order a part for your washing machine, Maytag may just email code to a guy down the street who can whip out the part. Definitely going to be giving lawmakers fits for years to come trying to adapt, they are still having a hard time with the internet and it is 25+ years old. :hehe:

I lived in Arizona for a few years, and much if my wife's family lives in AZ and TX. Different world, but I like water and there isn't a lot of it there. :smile: It was very cool for the old west history, I lived about an hour from Tombstone, and in fact got married in the historic tombstone courthouse.

I don't think gamers are unique in debating the finer points of pedantry. 9mm vs .45, Ford vs Chevy, Logan vs Southbend, AD&D vs 3E vs 5E vs OD&D all pretty much the same thing.

I've been readin a lot about this lately and I'm finding that a lot of the reputation with "weak" cap and ball revolvers come from its later use with very light loads. Serious gunfighters moved to cartridge weapons so the older cap and ball weapons tended to be used for more casual use, plinking, hunting small game and varmints, protection from snakes etc. Then the cowboy reenacting of the late 19th Century (continues to the present) where very light loads with their light recoil were very popular (it still makes a nice hole in paper or a clang on steel).

You can load a .36 Colt 1851 with an 80 grain round ball and 10 grains of powder providing something with the power of about .22 LR, or load a conical bullet of 125-147 grains over 20-25 grains of powder which is getting up there with a warm .38 Special or even a mild 9mm Parabellum. Remington revolvers could hold up to 30 grains of powder so could get a little more power. There are also some who say the black powder of the 1800s had a little more oomph than the modern stuff (quite possible since modern black powder is mostly recreational so may have made concessions to ease manufacture / increase safety).
A lot of modern BP shooters also use a felt wad behind the ball or bullet which takes up space for powder, where "back in the day" lube was placed over the bullet (in front of) to seal the chamber protecting from moisture and reducing the chance of chain fire.


In the vein of not helping :gunslinger: , BP is pretty cheap, a pound of BP is about $25 and is good for around 350 shots (assuming 20 grains per shot), 5lbs of lead, $15 (good for 280 bullets) and caps run about $6 / 100, about $0.17 a shot or about 1/2 the price of cheap 9mm and you cant shoot it up very fast.

Of course there is the initial purchase of lead melting pot, bullet molds, paper cartridge forming components etc... :ooh: Honestly all in I've probably spent less than the cost of a single modern handgun like a Glock.
Get an Uberti Colt Walker and fire a 200 grain conical bullet backed by 60 grains of black powder. Booyah!
 

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My favorite review is from Matt Carriker from Demolition Ranch. He's local to San Antonio, very cool guy.

Demolition Ranch is an awesome channel (or was until YouTube started cracking down on firearms). But his "Off the Ranch" channel is awesome too.

YouTube is cracking down on firearms channels:shock:?
 

tenbones

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YouTube is cracking down on firearms channels:shock:?

It's been happening for years. The whole gun community which shared in talking shop much like we do about gaming here has been gutted over politicization over 2A.

the sad thing is most people that aren't into firearms know nothing about them. Much like RPG's when listening to people that don't play them pontificate about the hobby.
 

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Giganotosaurus started this thread, but this is an interest of mine and I seem to have kind of taken it over. Based on the weapon porn thread that inspired this one, I'd say everything is fair game, I certainly won't be put out if people get into near future, fantasy or sci-fi weapons. I enjoy well thought out future weapons and guns that never were but might have been.
Sci-fi gun porn tends to fall into three different camps - (a) High tech energy weapons based on handwavium, a la Star Wars/Star Trek, (b) tacti-cool projectile weapons as seen in Aliens or Cyberpunk games or (c) Warhammer-Gothic, which is basically (a) or (b) with more rivets. Category B tends to be similar to today's tech and isn't all that interesting in its own right. You can do it in a game but will max out at maybe 15 or 20 generic types before you start repeating yourself mechanically or introducing the dreaded 'slightly better version of X', making X essentially redundant in the game.

If you want to get really reductionist you could chop the niches down to five or so - small pistol, big pistol, handy carbine, big rambo rifle and something powerful at short range. You can add some other niches, for example magnum pistols or sniping or big game rifles. Once you've got the niches, you can add a few other axes - armour piercing vs. more damage, autofire, low recoil for Zero-G, weapons with intrinsically longer or shorter ranges. Depending on your system or dice mechanic you may or may not be able to easily express all of these differences mechanically.

Assuming your combat system can accommodate these, you can come up with whatever technologies you want to provide different benefits. For example, in my 'verse you have lasers and gauss guns, which have better penetration, and differentiated by recoil vs. rate of fire. Blasters are a baseline, doing a bit more damage at the expense of less armour penetration. You've got some old school slug throwers for backward regions, and some niche technologies such as gyrojet style rocket guns firing explosive projectiles (See the Deathworld series), flamers, goober guns etc.

Now, you've got a sort of multidimensional space with tradeoffs along various axes. Populate the points in that space that make sense across game mechanics and setting canon. For example, if space marines with heavy armour are a thing in your 'verse, there should be some weapon that one might arm such troops, or troops expected to face them with.

With five basic technologies (blasters, lasers, gauss guns, rocket guns, slug throwers) and a similar number of exotics (e.g.goober guns), I found about 25 niches or so before things started repeating themselves (30 if you count heavy weapons). In the S&V games I'm running, I found the dice mechanics have trouble expressing all of those niches so I dropped quite a few out.

This is how I fitted various weapon concepts into the space.

Blasters (more damage, less penetration)
  • Blaster - common blaster pistol.
  • Assault Blaster - common blaster carbine, good for arming NPCs with. Rapid fire version also exists.
  • Burner - take an assault blaster and remove the collimator, shortening it. This gives you a nasty short range weapon, sort of the sawn-off shotgun of the 'verse.
  • Blaster Rifle - Big rambo rifle that does lots of damage with fairly decent penetration.

Lasers (better penetration, no recoil, less damage)
  • Laser Pistol - more of a personal defence weapon than a true handgun. Good penetration by handgun standards, poorer damage.
  • Laser Rifle - heavy space marine weapon, high penetration with zero recoil but mediocre damage. You could also add a laser carbine but it spins close to a 'slightly inferior' laser rifle.

Gauss guns (good penetration, high rate of fire, less damage)
  • Gauss pistol - better penetration than a blaster but less damage
  • Tactical pistol - Rapid fire gauss pistol; what collateral damage?
  • Flechette pistol - far more clumsy and random than a blaster. Less powerful but still high rate of fire and small enough to conceal.
  • Gauss gun - personal defence weapon. Good rate of fire but mediocre damage.
  • Gauss rifle - good penetration and rapid fire, mediocre damage.
  • Coilbus - gauss shotgun that can be fed with just about anything ferromagnetic.

Rocket guns (lots of penetration, low accuracy at range, small magazine capacity)
  • Rocket pistol - fires rockets that can have a small shaped charge warhead. Will penetrate space armour but not terribly accurate at range. Large projectiles trade off small magazine capacity.
  • Rocket rifle - carbine firing the same ammunition as the rocket rifle. Autofire capable versions exist. Still not accurate at range, this is an intrinsic limitation of the ammunition. One could add guided ammunition.

Slug throwers (one or two niche items, but mainly low tech and obsolete)
With the exception of the polygun and (to some extent) shotgun, these are outdated items most likely found in remote backwater regions.
  • Polygun - small non-metallic pistol
  • Slug thrower - auto pistol or revolver
  • Rifle - Rifle or assault rifle firing a mid-calibre round
  • Hunting rifle - rifle firing more powerful rounds for large game.
  • Shotgun - what it says on the tin
  • Magnum - like Dirty Harry, what it says on the tin.

Exotics (various one-offs)
  • Stunners - pistol and heavier stun rifles
  • Flamer - flame thrower with a backpack or integral tank
  • Goober gun - sprays sticky foam that entraps the target
  • Ram-Bow - high tech crossbow. Fires a range of payloads.

Heavy weapons (crew served)
  • Gauss cannon - basically a light machinegun.
  • Heavy laser - sniping weapon
  • Rail gun - anti material rifle
  • Micromissile launcher - RPG firing guided or unguided rounds
  • Heavy blaster - Rapid fire or high power blasts
  • Grenade launcher - fires grenades
And that was about the point where I ran out of sensible niches. Most of the slug throwers are essentially redundant and just there to have low-tech weapons in the game. You could add a few such as laser carbines, or machine pistols, maybe some rapid fire blaster pistol - in fact, in the S&V setting, I swizzled the tactical pistol to be a blaster.

This doesn't have as formal a tech level progression as Traveller. It assumes that all of the technologies are widely available commercially.
 
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Toadmaster

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Sci-fi gun porn tends to fall into three different camps - (a) High tech energy weapons based on handwavium, a la Star Wars/Star Trek, (b) tacti-cool projectile weapons as seen in Aliens or Cyberpunk games or (c) Warhammer-Gothic, which is basically (a) or (b) with more rivets. Category B tends to be similar to today's tech and isn't all that interesting in its own right. You can do it in a game but will max out at maybe 15 or 20 generic types before you start repeating yourself mechanically or introducing the dreaded 'slightly better version of X', making X essentially redundant in the game.

If you want to get really reductionist you could chop the niches down to five or so - small pistol, big pistol, handy carbine, big rambo rifle and something powerful at short range. You can add some other niches, for example magnum pistols or sniping or big game rifles. Once you've got the niches, you can add a few other axes - armour piercing vs. more damage, autofire, low recoil for Zero-G, weapons with intrinsically longer or shorter ranges. Depending on your system or dice mechanic you may or may not be able to easily express all of these differences mechanically.

Assuming your combat system can accommodate these, you can come up with whatever technologies you want to provide different benefits. For example, in my 'verse you have lasers and gauss guns, which have better penetration, and differentiated by recoil vs. rate of fire. Blasters are a baseline, doing a bit more damage at the expense of less armour penetration. You've got some old school slug throwers for backward regions, and some niche technologies such as gyrojet style rocket guns firing explosive projectiles (See the Deathworld series), flamers, goober guns etc.

Now, you've got a sort of multidimensional space with tradeoffs along various axes. Populate the points in that space that make sense across game mechanics and setting canon. For example, if space marines with heavy armour are a thing in your 'verse, there should be some weapon that one might arm such troops, or troops expected to face them with.

With five basic technologies (blasters, lasers, gauss guns, rocket guns, slug throwers) and a similar number of exotics (e.g.goober guns), I found about 25 niches or so before things started repeating themselves (30 if you count heavy weapons). In the S&V games I'm running, I found the dice mechanics have trouble expressing all of those niches so I dropped quite a few out.

This is how I fitted various weapon concepts into the space.

Blasters (more damage, less penetration)
  • Blaster - common blaster pistol.
  • Assault Blaster - common blaster carbine, good for arming NPCs with. Rapid fire version also exists.
  • Burner - take an assault blaster and remove the collimator, shortening it. This gives you a nasty short range weapon, sort of the sawn-off shotgun of the 'verse.
  • Blaster Rifle - Big rambo rifle that does lots of damage with fairly decent penetration.

Lasers (better penetration, no recoil, less damage)
  • Laser Pistol - more of a personal defence weapon than a true handgun. Good penetration by handgun standards, poorer damage.
  • Laser Rifle - heavy space marine weapon, high penetration with zero recoil but mediocre damage. You could also add a laser carbine but it spins close to a 'slightly inferior' laser rifle.

Gauss guns (good penetration, high rate of fire)
  • Gauss pistol - better penetration than a blaster but less damage
  • Tactical pistol - Rapid fire gauss pistol; what collateral damage?
  • Flechette pistol - far more clumsy and random than a blaster. Less powerful but still high rate of fire and small enough to conceal.
  • Gauss gun - personal defence weapon. Good rate of fire but mediocre damage.
  • Gauss rifle - good penetration and rapid fire, mediocre damage.
  • Coilbus - gauss shotgun that can be fed with just about anything ferromagnetic.

Rocket guns (lots of penetration, low accuracy at range, small magazine capacity)
  • Rocket pistol - fires rockets that can have a small shaped charge warhead. Will penetrate space armour but not terribly accurate at range. Large projectiles trade off small magazine capacity.
  • Rocket rifle - carbine firing the same ammunition as the rocket rifle. Autofire capable versions exist. Still not accurate at range, this is an intrinsic limitation of the ammunition. One could add guided ammunition.

Slug throwers (one or two niche items, but mainly low tech and obsolete)
With the exception of the polygun and (to some extent) shotgun, these are outdated items most likely found in remote backwater regions.
  • Polygun - small non-metallic pistol
  • Slug thrower - auto pistol
  • Rifle - Rifle or assault rifle firing a mid-calibre round
  • Hunting rifle - rifle firing more powerful rounds for large game.
  • Shotgun - what it says on the tin
  • Magnum - like Dirty Harry, what it says on the tin.

Exotics (various one-offs)
  • Stunners - pistol and heavier stun rifles
  • Flamer - flame thrower with a backpack or integral tank
  • Goober gun - sprays sticky foam that entraps the target
  • Ram-Bow - high tech crossbow. Fires a range of payloads.

Heavy weapons (crew served)
  • Gauss cannon - basically a light machinegun.
  • Heavy laser - sniping weapon
  • Rail gun - anti material rifle
  • Micromissile launcher - RPG firing guided or unguided rounds
  • Heavy blaster - Rapid fire or high power blasts
  • Grenade launcher - fires grenades
And that was about the point where I ran out of sensible niches. Most of the slug throwers are essentially redundant and just there to have low-tech weapons in the game. You could add a few such as laser carbines, or machine pistols, maybe some rapid fire blaster pistol - in fact, in the S&V setting, I swizzled the tactical pistol to be a blaster.

This doesn't have as formal a tech level progression as Traveller. It assumes that all of the technologies are widely available commercially.

Yep just like past and current weapons it is 80% story 20% stats.

That is something I liked about Traveller 2300 / 2300AD. it had interesting and plausible future tech, and offered some reasoning for why you could find a couple of different types of slug thrower (caseless solid propellant, binary liquid or gas propellants and conventional cased rounds) and a couple of different energy weapon technologies. Cost, purpose, practicality all were a factor, colonists on a frontier world were more likely to stick to conservative, tried and true weapons, high tech spec ops could opt for the cutting edge because they had the funding and logistical support to keep it working.
The individual weapons also tried to offer some flavor beyond small, medium and large.

Cyberpunk 2020 also tried to offer more flavor and had entire books of weapon porn, with at least one in the format of a gun magazine (of the reading variety, not ammo holding variety).

Agree long lists totally not needed from a mechanics point of view, but a lot of player like to be able to say they have a Rimsky Korsikov 40W phased plasma rifle, rather than just putting down medium blaster rifle. Does D&D really need 6 kinds of elf?
 

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Yep just like past and current weapons it is 80% story 20% stats.

That is something I liked about Traveller 2300 / 2300AD. it had interesting and plausible future tech, and offered some reasoning for why you could find a couple of different types of slug thrower (caseless solid propellant, binary liquid or gas propellants and conventional cased rounds) and a couple of different energy weapon technologies. Cost, purpose, practicality all were a factor, colonists on a frontier world were more likely to stick to conservative, tried and true weapons, high tech spec ops could opt for the cutting edge because they had the funding and logistical support to keep it working.
The individual weapons also tried to offer some flavor beyond small, medium and large.

Cyberpunk 2020 also tried to offer more flavor and had entire books of weapon porn, with at least one in the format of a gun magazine (of the reading variety, not ammo holding variety).

Agree long lists totally not needed from a mechanics point of view, but a lot of player like to be able to say they have a Rimsky Korsikov 40W phased plasma rifle, rather than just putting down medium blaster rifle. Does D&D really need 6 kinds of elf?
35 years ago I did write a pretty comprehensive gun porn book for a moderns game but now I've gone away from being completist with this. I've gotten to like a sort of Miyazaki-ish approach to it - drop makes and models in as they support the story but hint at a wider universe. Actually coming up with a whole load of names and model numbers at once without them coming across as sterile and boring isn't so easy, and I think Cyberpunk and 2300 actually failed at that, although 2300 did a passable job of the tech. The illustrations weren't bad but were fairly obviously done on a drafting program, although one can forgive them for the 1990 vintage tech in 1990.
 
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Bourbonjack

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Neat thread! Here’s my percussion lock blackpowder rifle. Muzzleloader season opens Saturday so it will be seeing some woods time. 92F52B54-59D6-4097-BAF9-9F17A6FB7836.jpeg
 

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Neat thread! Here’s my percussion lock blackpowder rifle. Muzzleloader season opens Saturday so it will be seeing some woods time.
Nice looking weapon. Reminds me of the time we went out to watch some of the re-enactment of April 19 1775 and a colonist was positioned right next to us. In a lull in the action, he showed us his gun up close and shared a bit about it's operation. I think that was in 1976 which featured a much more significant re-enactment that typical. Most years back then, at least some town militia units would actually march to Concord to join the parade and there would be one or two re-enactment events during the day. In 1976 they had re-enactment events throughout the day, I think starting with the morning confrontation in Lexington (well, actually starting in the wee hours with Paul Revere's ride). There was almost always a re-enactment of the Concord Bridge confrontation, and I think we did attend that once or twice.
 

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I have one of these. Just to elaborate, this is the Keltec RDB .223/5.56mm. It is a bullpup design, which means the action is behind the trigger. So overall it is only about 27" long, but is a full size rifle. It feels louder because your ear is right by the action if you are shooting from the shoulder.
9E00E4D1-D45A-4337-9D73-3BBFAE44ECD3.jpeg
I want one of these. Simple 45/70 long colt. Henry listed it as suitable for hunting T. Rex.
7B780920-3B99-49FB-9E6A-D5ECEBC89391.jpeg
 
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Toadmaster

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I have one of these. Just to elaborate, this is the Keltec RDB .223/5.56mm. It is a bullpup design, which means the action is behind the trigger. So overall it is only about 27" long, but is a full size rifle. It feels louder because your ear is right by the action if you are shooting from the shoulder.
View attachment 23880
I want one of these. Simple 45/70 long colt. Henry listed it as suitable for hunting T. Rex.
View attachment 23881

I like traditional, but think it is neat that some makers are starting to offer modernized lever action rifles.
 

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My favorite review is from Matt Carriker from Demolition Ranch. He's local to San Antonio, very cool guy.

Demolition Ranch is an awesome channel (or was until YouTube started cracking down on firearms). But his "Off the Ranch" channel is awesome too.

Is it just me or does he look like Will Smith?
 

Giganotosaurus

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I got a gun question for y'all. How long would bullets stay useable sitting on a shelf?
 

Toadmaster

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I got a gun question for y'all. How long would bullets stay useable sitting on a shelf?

Stored under favorable conditions, so moderately dry, room temp, basically forever. As long as the brass or steel casing remains intact the powder and primer will likely remain viable. Sure over time the rate of misfires may increase compared to factory fresh, but even that is probably not significant. You can still buy WW2 vintage ammo that works just fine.
I have some ammo that I bought 20 years ago, just stored in the factory cardboard boxes, inside metal ammo cans. Any of it could be put on a store shelf without raising any suspicion other than the 20 year old prices on the tag. That is of course stored in an air conditioned house, in a mild climate so it has had a very easy existence.

Even loaded black powder firearms are pretty durable. I know of a couple cases where people have loaded a black powder gun and left it loaded for a couple of years. They primed them and they fired just fine. Of course black powder requires even more favorable storage conditions because the primer hole provides access for moisture to get in.

Moist or humid conditions could be an issue. Like ammo submerged for years might technically be functional but if the casing is corroded it probably won't fit into the chamber.

If you are thinking about a post apocalypse situation, then assuming it isn't directly exposed to the weather and not in a really extreme wet climate, then civilian ammo stored in unprepared and as abandoned condition (no functioning HVAC in the building, maybe some partial collapse in other parts of the building, ammo in the gun, box of ammo in the closet etc), is probably good for a minimum of 10-20 years. Ammo in a gun safe with some precautions, like being stored in water proof metal or plastic ammo boxes with desiccant packs, I would think 50 years + would be no issue at all. Military ammo, sealed in pouches, stored in metal ammo cans, in a crate probably indefinitely except in the most extreme cases.
 

Nobby-W

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I got a gun question for y'all. How long would bullets stay useable sitting on a shelf?
Decades. There's plenty of WWII and cold-war era surplus ammunition still circulating on the market. The WWII-era stuff is getting more into being collectible now (more due to rarity than age), but cold-war vintage stuff made in the '50s or '60s is still kicking around in quantity and perfectly viable.
 
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