That Metal Thread Hasbro issues & the future of DnD

[BedrockBrendan]

So what you're saying is, people are starting to treat music the same way I always used to?

It appears that way. Less tribal. Though I've heard from some of my players there is still some of that in the local 'grind core*' scene

*I still can't figure out what grind core is

 

[Gringnr]

Depends on who you talk to, but it's basically an extreme outgrowth of hardcore punk. The line gets a little blurry, though, because there is a definite crossover between grindcore and death metal. Early Carcass is a good example of deathgrind. Terrorizer is grindcore, definitely influenced by death metal, but retaining a lot of the punk focus. I first became aware of grind through friends who "graduated" to it from metal, though it was definitely born out of punk.

 

[Gringnr]

You can really hear that split on Napalm Death's forst album, Scum. Side A leans more toward the "punk" side of grind, while Side B, recorded later, shows the band moving towards a more metal direction.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Depends on who you talk to, but it's basically an extreme outgrowth of hardcore punk. The line gets a little blurry, though, because there is a definite crossover between grindcore and death metal. Early Carcass is a good example of deathgrind. Terrorizer is grindcore, definitely influenced by death metal, but retaining a lot of the punk focus. I first became aware of grind through friends who "graduated" to it from metal, though it was definitely born out of punk.

That is what confuses me: the blurring between death and grind core. Punk is something I have never been able to get into so that might also be why I was never really able to do a deep dive. I cut my teeth playing classic death and doom in the late 80s early 90s. So when I heard grindcore it sounded vaguely like death but different. I've heard a couple of bands I like. There was a local grind core band called Distressor that were much more on the death end of the spectrum and I really liked their sound.

 

[Gringnr]

I prefer deathgrind myself, but grindcore definitely has its roots in punk. This album is considered to be one of the progenitors of the style:

 

[BedrockBrendan]

You can really hear that split on Napalm Death's forst album, Scum. Side A leans more toward the "punk" side of grind, while Side B, recorded later, shows the band moving towards a more metal direction.

I actually never got into Napalm Death (probably because that punk element). I got into Lee Dorian after he left and started Cathedral (but their sound is so different from Napalm Death, I wasn't able to appreciate them when I tried to listen).

 

[Gringnr]

It's basically what happened with thrash all over again: metalheads started listening to punk, and incorporating it into their own music. And Napalm Death can have a wildly different sound, depending on which album you listen to. Harmony Corruption is basically devoid of overt punk influence, as is later period Carcass.

 

[Gringnr]

Just like Dylan going electric, a lot of "true" grindndcore fans were NOT fans of death metal's influence on their scene.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

It's basically what happened with thrash all over again: metalheads started listening to punk, and incorporating it into their own music. And Napalm Death can have a wildly different sound, depending on which album you listen to. Harmony Corruption is basically devoid of overt punk influence, as is later period Carcass.

The punk influence was pretty obvious in stuff like Megadeth. So we knew it was an element that had intensified metal, but when I was getting into it the hostility between metalhead and punks was pretty intense. That wasn't a line you could just cross in your social circle. I remember going to a punk show with a girl and being the only metal fan. It was a very uneasy experience

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Just like Dylan going electric, a lot of "true" grindndcore fans were NOT fans of death metal's influence on their scene.

There was a lot of that. When Solitude Aeturnus put out their third album, some people felt it had too much of a Sound Garden influence (and there was a lot of resentment towards grunge by metalheads). Listening to it now, I am not convinced it was influenced by that. I think they were trying to use a lot of medieval harmonies and evolve their sound and it just happened to resonate that way with some listeners (myself included at the time)

 

[Gringnr]

The punk influence was pretty obvious in stuff like Megadeth. So we knew it was an element that had intensified metal, but when I was getting into it the hostility between metalhead and punks was pretty intense. That wasn't a line you could just cross in your social circle. I remember going to a punk show with a girl and being the only metal fan. It was a very uneasy experience

I didn't have so much of that, though I have heard (and read) about is happening. I first went to High School in CA, where punks and metalheads bonded over bands like C.O.C. When I moved back to AZ (state of my birth), the kids there were still into Rush and Zeppelin. Great bands, sure, but as a teenager in 1986, I was NOT in that headspace lmao. It was like travelling back in time. So I started hanging with punks, because they were also into fast music, even turned a few on to Slayer. I did have one guy tell me he hated thrash because all the punk bands started growing their hair long and putting out shitty records, and he wasn't entirely wrong.

There was a lot of that. When Solitude Aeturnus put out their third album, some people felt it had too much of a Sound Garden influence (and there was a lot of resentment towards grunge by metalheads). Listening to it now, I am not convinced it was influenced by that. I think they were trying to use a lot of medieval harmonies and evolve their sound and it just happened to resonate that way with some listeners (myself included at the time)

Well, the thing with grind and even death is it's so extreme, I think there is a tendency towards burnout. Couple that with the technical prowess required to play it well, and you're going to see these musicians gravitating towards and appreciating other stuff. I've never met a thrash drummer (and I've met a few) who didn't start to appreciate jazz. Few of the extreme grindcore bands stayed in that style. Disharmonic Orchestra experimented like crazy (even with rap!?!), and Xysma seemed to change styles with each album. Their Carcass-meets-Smashing-Pumpkins album, "Yeah," is one of my all-timers:

 

[Gringnr]

Mods plz rename thread to "The Hasb and the Furious: Metalthread Drift"

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Well, the thing with grind and even death is it's so extreme, I think there is a tendency towards burnout. Couple that with the technical prowess required to play it well, and you're going to see these musicians gravitating towards and appreciating other stuff. I've never met a thrash drummer (and I've met a few) who didn't start to appreciate jazz. Few of the extreme grindcore bands stayed in that style. Disharmonic Orchestra experimented like crazy (even with rap!?!), and Xysma seemed to change styles with each album. Their Carcass-meets-Smashing-Pumpkins album, "Yeah," is one of my all-timers:

There was also a huge metal identity crisis in the mid-90s. It was actually kind of interesting because you had people experimenting with very different sounds (that is why you ended up with bands like Paradise Lost, The Gathering and My Dying Bride). I ended up getting more into some of the melodic bands as that happened.

A lot of metal guitarists always had respect for stuff like jazz. The first two Megadeth albums have a lot of jazz influence (punk as well). It was mainly that punk-metal divide that seemed to be a big issue, and later the metal-grunge divide (and I think the beef with grunge was it occupied so much of the same sonic space). But you are right, with extreme genres there is only so far you can take it and you have to start going in other directions. I remember me and my bandmates wondering how things were going to keep getting heavier and heavier, because death seemed to be as heavy as we could imagine, and sure enough, bands started doing things like getting more melodic, more musically diverse in sound, slower, etc.

As a guitar player you were generally listening to a lot of different sounds, especially if you took lessons. I remember for example getting very into classical and baroque through some of the stuff my guitar teacher had me learning (he seemed to see the connection between baroque and metal so steered me towards bach sheet music). I also had to learn stuff like Strange Fruit and Paint it Black. Django Reinhardt was another one I found through my guitar teacher (I had been listening to a lot of eastern european folk music so he found that was a good angle to attract me to jazz). I still can't stand the kind of jazz you hear on NPR and in coffee houses (stuff that just sounds random). But I like some of that older more structured jazz. You almost couldn't write good metal if all you were doing was listening to thrash, or just listening to death. It is sort of like trying to write good fantasy just reading Lord of the Rings and Dragonlance. You needed to bring in other musical perspectives. So there were acceptable pastures to graze on outside metal. It was places deemed in opposition to it that usually got people mad (so pop, punk, and grunge were the big ones I recall). And like you say, the technical skill required naturally led people to

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I didn't have so much of that, though I have heard (and read) about is happening. I first went to High School in CA, where punks and metalheads bonded over bands like C.O.C. When I moved back to AZ (state of my birth), the kids there were still into Rush and Zeppelin. Great bands, sure, but as a teenager in 1986, I was NOT in that headspace lmao. It was like travelling back in time. So I started hanging with punks, because they were also into fast music, even turned a few on to Slayer. I did have one guy tell me he hated thrash because all the punk bands started growing their hair long and putting out shitty records, and he wasn't entirely wrong.

I spent some time as a kid in California (we moved out there for one of my dad's sales positions), and I do recall there being a very different vibe. I wasn't into metal yet as I was young, but I had friends getting into slayer and was aware of it. I feel like the skate boarding and surfing culture created a whole other way of looking at this stuff. But when I moved back east I quickly got into rock, hard rock, then metal. I still listened to stuff like Zeppelin, Hendrix, the Doors, when I got into metal (for me those remained interesting, maybe because I liked a lot of 70s metal and protometal like Black Sabbath). But here there was a pretty strong division between musical subgenres. The strongest was punk and metal. I think both being more aggressive and angry genres didn't help

 

[Torque2100]

If Hasbro and WotC suffer and their output declines, I will be a happy camper. There's a common phrase in TTRPGs "As goes D&D, so goes the Industry." I think this is wrong. It is during eras like the OGL era or the current 5e glut that the RPG industry seems to suffer from a glut of samey products and licensed games.

In my experience, it was during the times when D&D is suffering that we see an explosion of innovation. I got into tabletop gaming in the 1990's during the TSR bankruptcy. I remember there was a tremendous diversity of systems and options for people who didn't like D&D. Then OGL happened and all that innovation was suffocated and destroyed.

the 4th edition era was similar. 4th edition may not have been an objectively bad game, but most players of D&D tried it once, then never picked it up again. In this vacuum, along came Pathfinder, Savage Worlds and other games that enjoyed a boom during that era. One thing I have noticed is that it took D&D 5e a long time to become nearly as suffocating as the OGL was in its heyday. I also don't see it as nearly as suffocating as OGL, there still seems to be space for competing systems like Modiphius 2d20 and Year Zero Engine.

 

[Gringnr]

There was also a huge metal identity crisis in the mid-90s. It was actually kind of interesting because you had people experimenting with very different sounds (that is why you ended up with bands like Paradise Lost, The Gathering and My Dying Bride). I ended up getting more into some of the melodic bands as that happened.

A lot of metal guitarists always had respect for stuff like jazz. The first two Megadeth albums have a lot of jazz influence (punk as well). It was mainly that punk-metal divide that seemed to be a big issue, and later the metal-grunge divide (and I think the beef with grunge was it occupied so much of the same sonic space). But you are right, with extreme genres there is only so far you can take it and you have to start going in other directions. I remember me and my bandmates wondering how things were going to keep getting heavier and heavier, because death seemed to be as heavy as we could imagine, and sure enough, bands started doing things like getting more melodic, more musically diverse in sound, slower, etc.

As a guitar player you were generally listening to a lot of different sounds, especially if you took lessons. I remember for example getting very into classical and baroque through some of the stuff my guitar teacher had me learning (he seemed to see the connection between baroque and metal so steered me towards bach sheet music). I also had to learn stuff like Strange Fruit and Paint it Black. Django Reinhardt was another one I found through my guitar teacher (I had been listening to a lot of eastern european folk music so he found that was a good angle to attract me to jazz). I still can't stand the kind of jazz you hear on NPR and in coffee houses (stuff that just sounds random). But I like some of that older more structured jazz. You almost couldn't write good metal if all you were doing was listening to thrash, or just listening to death. It is sort of like trying to write good fantasy just reading Lord of the Rings and Dragonlance. You needed to bring in other musical perspectives. So there were acceptable pastures to graze on outside metal. It was places deemed in opposition to it that usually got people mad (so pop, punk, and grunge were the big ones I recall). And like you say, the technical skill required naturally led people to

Megadeth is a great example of those non-metal influences. You're spot on, , because Gar Samuelson (drummer) and Chris Poland (guitarist), who played on the first two albums, both came from a jazz background. Here they are, pre-Megadeth, playing together in a jazz/fusion band called The New Yorkers:

 

[BedrockBrendan]

If Hasbro and WotC suffer and their output declines, I will be a happy camper. There's a common phrase in TTRPGs "As goes D&D, so goes the Industry." I think this is wrong. It is during eras like the OGL era or the current 5e glut that the RPG industry seems to suffer from a glut of samey products and licensed games.

In my experience, it was during the times when D&D is suffering that we see an explosion of innovation. I got into tabletop gaming in the 1990's during the TSR bankruptcy. I remember there was a tremendous diversity of systems and options for people who didn't like D&D. Then OGL happened and all that innovation was suffocated and destroyed.

the 4th edition era was similar. 4th edition may not have been an objectively bad game, but most players of D&D tried it once, then never picked it up again. In this vacuum, along came Pathfinder, Savage Worlds and other games that enjoyed a boom during that era. One thing I have noticed is that it took D&D 5e a long time to become nearly as suffocating as the OGL was in its heyday. I also don't see it as nearly as suffocating as OGL, there still seems to be space for competing systems like Modiphius 2d20 and Year Zero Engine.

I agree the OGL destroyed that diversity. I do think though it was a product of the specific effect the OGL itself had. Even before the bankruptcy I remember playing a lot of different RPG systems. It was really after 3E came out that suddenly it felt like everything was d20.

I do think you are right that if One D&D is a misstep, that could create another vacuum that other companies could fill. D&D kind of has to be everything to everyone (at least mostly everything to mostly everyone) and if it isn't achieving that, that could create demand for what it isn't providing. Even going back to something like Vampire, it clearly offered something you didn't get in D&D, and maybe something people didn't know they wanted until they saw it.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Megadeth is a great example of that influence. You're spot on, , because Gar Samuelson (drummer) and Chris Poland (guitarist), who played on the first two albums, both came from a jazz background. Here they are, pre-Megadeth, playing together in a jazz/fusion band called The New Yorkers:

one of my favorite megadeth songs is Looking Down the Cross because it has chords in it you just never would hear in metal. The chords in question kick in at about the 1:30 mark:

 

[Gringnr]

A lot of the problem is that the OSR, and seemingly the hobby as a whole, has basically handcuffed itself to D&D. As a rising tide lifts all boats, a drought shall surely ground them.

Been reading Talislanta 4th edition lately, and there's just so much more to gaming, even if you limit it to fantasy. Which, there's no reason to even do that.

British RPG fans seem to celebrate Fighting Fantasy, Warhammer, Dragon Warriors, etc. Americans? D&D or die. IDGI.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Megadeth is a great example of those non-metal influences. You're spot on, , because Gar Samuelson (drummer) and Chris Poland (guitarist), who played on the first two albums, both came from a jazz background. Here they are, pre-Megadeth, playing together in a jazz/fusion band called The New Yorkers:

Getting at those influences is very important. Whenever I find a guitar player I like, I try to discover what influenced them most. For example Dave Murray from Iron Maiden talks a lot about Jimi Hendrix use of Legato and you can see that in his playing. If you know about that, it is much easier to listen to Hendrix and extract those kinds of lessons. Lemmy loved Little Richard. And you can hear it if you go back and try to appreciate Richards from that perspective.

 

[Gringnr]

one of my favorite megadeth songs is Looking Down the Cross because it has chords in it you just never would hear in metal. The chords in question kick in at about the 1:30 mark:

That first album was so great. I normally dislike remasters, but the production on that album was really not good. I actually like the remastered version better, a real rarity for me.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

A lot of the problem is that the OSR, and seemingly the hobby as a whole, has basically handcuffed itself to D&D. As a rising tide lifts all boats, a drought shall surely ground them.

Been reading Talislanta 4th edition lately, and there's just so much more to gaming, even if you limit it to fantasy. Which, there's no reason to even do that.

British RPG fans seem to celebrate Fighting Fantasy, Warhammer, Dragon Warriors, etc. Americans? D&D or die. IDGI.

I haven't played much D&D in ages. I still am happy to do so, I still love some of the central conceits of D&D, but I always enjoyed seeking other systems and playing them. And in most of the groups I was in, they weren't exclusively D&D. It can be a tough sell though in any group to find a new game and try to get people on board. I remember trying for years to get my players to try Hong Kong Action Theatre! for example. Thankfully I did have a group that was usually willing to give most games at least one session to see if they liked it. And about half the time we didn't do D&D

 

[BedrockBrendan]

That first album was so great. I normally dislike remasters, but the production on that album was really not good. I actually like the remastered version better, a real rarity for me.

The first album was indeed pretty rough in terms of the production. My singer introduced me to it and I remember it was always the hardest one for me to listen to because of that. I liked Rust in Peace and So Far, So Good, So What: the latter was also a bit rough but Mary Jane is such an outstanding song:

That is wonderful song to play on guitar. I love how Dave approaches song writing and playing. There is something very open minded about how he moves along the neck and between chords and melodies (there is actually something slightly Hendrix about it my opinion).

 

[Gringnr]

I haven't played much D&D in ages. I still am happy to do so, I still love some of the central conceits of D&D, but I always enjoyed seeking other systems and playing them. And in most of the groups I was in, they weren't exclusively D&D. It can be a tough sell though in any group to find a new game and try to get people on board. I remember trying for years to get my players to try Hong Kong Action Theatre! for example. Thankfully I did have a group that was usually willing to give most games at least one session to see if they liked it. And about half the time we didn't do D&D

Yeah, it's funny, all my friends owned D&D, so I didn't feel the need to buy it. It just occurred to me yesterday that before I ever bought a D&D product as a kid, I had already bough or owned Boot Hill, CoC, MERP, V&V, MSH and Bushido.

I appreciate D&D. And I think it's a good game. It still holds up, though I feel like almost every retroclone has made some sort of improvements to it. If I were to play "D&D" today, it would def be Swords & Wizardry. I think as you get older, you learn what you like. Today, most of my favorite games combine to-hit and damage rolls. How good you do on the fomer dictates the latter. Not only is it a real time saver, but it has a real internal logic to it.

I'm currently running DCC, and while I like it, it still has some of the shortcomings of D&D. And yet, 5th feels too polished for me. Like playing the reults of a focus group, which is, I guess, what it is. I don't expect that One D&D will be any different.

 

[Voros]

I didn't have so much of that, though I have heard (and read) about is happening. I first went to High School in CA, where punks and metalheads bonded over bands like C.O.C. When I moved back to AZ (state of my birth), the kids there were still into Rush and Zeppelin. Great bands, sure, but as a teenager in 1986, I was NOT in that headspace lmao. It was like travelling back in time. So I started hanging with punks, because they were also into fast music, even turned a few on to Slayer. I did have one guy tell me he hated thrash because all the punk bands started growing their hair long and putting out shitty records, and he wasn't entirely wrong.

Well, the thing with grind and even death is it's so extreme, I think there is a tendency towards burnout. Couple that with the technical prowess required to play it well, and you're going to see these musicians gravitating towards and appreciating other stuff. I've never met a thrash drummer (and I've met a few) who didn't start to appreciate jazz. Few of the extreme grindcore bands stayed in that style. Disharmonic Orchestra experimented like crazy (even with rap!?!), and Xysma seemed to change styles with each album. Their Carcass-meets-Smashing-Pumpkins album, "Yeah," is one of my all-timers:

I think because I grew up in a mid-size town as a teen there just weren't enough people at my school into punk or metal for there to be a divide, we freaks had to stick together and listened to both punk and metal.

Even as a teen I thought the distinction had more to do with hair length and fashion rather than anything too significant musically, but I'm ecumenical when it comes to definitions of rock n' roll.

As I moved into the local music scene in my late teens and early 20s I did encounter more anti-metal or anti-punk attitude but it was largely from older burned-out scenesters.

 

[Necrozius]

i have baggage, yea I know. Still can’t let go of the memory of my friends ridiculing me for liking metal back in the mid 90s only to have them “discover” it in the early 2000s and accuse me of being close minded because I wasn’t into it anymore.

Hearing one of them insist that I give Metallica a listen to because it’s more accessible to normal people. Motherfucker 15 years ago you told me to “turn that shit off and put on some NOFX” at my own birthday party when I put on “Battery” on the tape player.

 

[Gringnr]

i have baggage, yea I know. Still can’t let go of the memory of my friends ridiculing me for liking metal back in the mid 90s only to have them “discover” it in the early 2000s and accuse me of being close minded because I wasn’t into it anymore.

Hearing one of them insist that I give Metallica a listen to because it’s more accessible to normal people. Motherfucker 15 years ago you told me to “turn that shit off and put on some NOFX” at my own birthday party when I put on “Battery” on the tape player.

Yeah, there were plenty of trad metal dudes who would be like "that dude can't sing" and then a year later they were wearing Venom shirts or whatever lol.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Yeah, it's funny, all my friends owned D&D, so I didn't feel the need to buy it. It just occurred to me yesterday that before I ever bought a D&D product as a kid, I had already bough or owned Boot Hill, CoC, MERP, V&V, MSH and Bushido.

I appreciate D&D. And I think it's a good game. It still holds up, though I feel like almost every retroclone has made some sort of improvements to it. If I were to play "D&D" today, it would def be Swords & Wizardry. I think as you get older, you learn what you like. Today, most of my favorite games combine to-hit and damage rolls. How good you do on the fomer dictates the latter. Not only is it a real time saver, but it has a real internal logic to it.

I'm currently running DCC, and while I like it, it still has some of the shortcomings of D&D. And yet, 5th feels too polished for me. Like playing the reults of a focus group, which is, I guess, what it is. I don't expect that One D&D will be any different.

I don't play 5E so I can't really comment on that one specifically. I liked 3E but got a bit tired of its emphasis on system mastery by the end. These days I tend to use 2E if I feel like running D&D (mainly because I can use all the Ravenloft material from the 2E era)

I started, I think, on Mech Warrior, and I wasn't allowed to have D&D books during a portion of the satanic panic, so I had to get other types of RPGs like Top Secret or Batman. But once I moved back east, I started playing D&D with my cousin and I fell in love with the Ravenloft setting when that came out. So D&D was always a part of my gaming. But at the same time, we liked playing Cthulhu, we loved Orrorsh in TORG, we had a GM who ran Vampire, and we were always trying out new games when we found them. Also for certain genres you just had to look beyond D&D.

Dungeons and Dragons was always good for reliable play and for playing something you knew most people would be up for. One good thing about it, is it is a very easy concept to plan for. Populating a dungeon for example is a very clear GM prep task. And the monster manual is a wonderful source of inspiration when you are doing that. I remember sitting down one day during the d20 boom to start a 3E wuxia campaign (after doing so with other systems for a while), and it was so refreshing going back to that basic D&D conceit of play and prep. It was fun being able to throw in all these surreal monsters. The campaign was basically a sandbox in a region with all kinds of abandoned temples to explore but cribbed from Come Drink with Me in terms of the core conflict the players were involved in. There is something very simple and workable about how one prepares for a D&D session (whether its a dungeon or something else). So I definitely get why its popular, and if it isn't D&D that isn't popular, some variation of it seems to be. One of the challenges I think non-D&D games sometimes have is conveying their process to a GM who is accustomed to running D&D (they aren't harder inherently, some are even easier, but D&D is kind of the default for most people). I know when I first read Vampire the Masquerade one of the reasons it resonated, even though I never really ended up running it, just playing it, was the examples all looked like something I hadn't done in a game that would definitely work. There was just something about the approach that seemed gameable. Same thing with Cthulhu. Call of Cthulhu adventures were also very fun to prep and I always felt like I knew exactly what I had to do to plan for them and there was an enthusiasm for it as well.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

i have baggage, yea I know. Still can’t let go of the memory of my friends ridiculing me for liking metal back in the mid 90s only to have them “discover” it in the early 2000s and accuse me of being close minded because I wasn’t into it anymore.

Hearing one of them insist that I give Metallica a listen to because it’s more accessible to normal people. Motherfucker 15 years ago you told me to “turn that shit off and put on some NOFX” at my own birthday party when I put on “Battery” on the tape player.

Yeah, there were plenty of trad metal dudes who would be like "that dude can't sing" and then a year later they were wearing Venom shirts or whatever lol.

I think coming from playing guitar, I was always open to bands if the guitar was good, even if I disliked the vocals (I'm not huge into the death growl, except maybe Death and Obituary, but I love a lot of death metal because of the guitar). With metal vocals I also like a good clean vocalist like Bruce Dickinson, Dio, or Lowe from Solitude Aeturnus), but I also like metal that is abrasive then balanced by warm and sweet melodies (King Diamond, Megadeth, System of a Down, etc). That contrast is the core of what makes King Diamond work for me. It also allows for theatrical approaches (sometimes metal needs to sound ugly to get its point across or to paint a particular image). Scream Bloody Gore has some grating vocals but they paint a real image in your head. A metal band can get a lot of traction if they go abrasive but contrast it with something really impactful and inspired).

 

[SmallbutVicious]

i have baggage, yea I know. Still can’t let go of the memory of my friends ridiculing me for liking metal back in the mid 90s only to have them “discover” it in the early 2000s and accuse me of being close minded because I wasn’t into it anymore.

Genre purism has nothing to do with music. It's a tribalist thing related to in-group identification and assertion of identity.

 

[Gringnr]

A metal band can get a lot of traction if they go abrasive but contrast it with something really impactful and inspired).

Cradle of Filth fan spotted

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Cradle of Filth fan spotted

Lol. No not a cradle of filth fan. I am probably too old for them. And the goth aesthetic doesn't appeal to me very much (but I can respect any band that does something well, like I don't care for Emo but I love My Chemical Romance because they are operating more at a Queen level). But when my dying bride first came out me and my drummer loved them because of this song (it was just a very cool use of drums, the guitar parts were pretty clever and it sounded different):



And they kept staying cool for us because they changed their sound and evolved in very interesting ways (their later stuff if much more melodic a lot less heavy)

Edit: Also those two guitar parts are a great two hand piano exercise if you can figure out the lines on piano and play them together

And Paradise Lost was cool to us when they released Gothic because it was unepexted to see an extreme band take a more rock oriented sound with death vocals and a female backup singer:



I also loved this band tremendously when this album came out because they were bringing something new to the genre (particular songs like the one in the time stamp):



Mostly on the heavier end I was into Doom and stuff like, since it is in the link's name, Bathory. I also always adored bands like Iron Maiden and Queen.

 

[Gringnr]

You're probably familiar with later-period Tiamat, but if not, you'd probably like them. Cynic as well, and maybe to a lesser extent Atheist. Yeah, most of my metal knowledge is outdated lol. Those last two add some strong jazz elements in their later albums.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

You're probably familiar with later-period Tiamat, but if not, you'd probably like them. Cynic as well, and maybe to a lesser extent Atheist. Yeah, most of my metal knowledge is outdated lol. Those last two add some strong jazz elements.

Tiamat I never really got into. Atheist people have suggested to me before. Any particular song recommendations? For some reason I always confuse Atheist with the band Asphyx (who I quite liked). Haven't heard much Cynic I believe. I'm not a huge progressive metal fan though (that stuff tends to be very hit or miss for me). Basically if it sounds like they are playing an epic ton of notes all over the map, I just can't get into he music. For me the emotional reaction I have to a well composed melody and chord progression is more important than super advanced technique (like I appreciate good technique but if it becomes the main focus I start to lose interest). I tend to gravitate towards stuff that is from when genres I like were forming (so Doom Metal bands from the early 80s like Witchfinder General or Saint Vitus to bands like Candlemass, Cathedral and Solitude Aeturnus). Same reason I really like bands like Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. And I like to hear a little bit of strain and muscle in the technique rather than perfection (for instance I will take Randy Rhoads over Steve Vai).

 

[dragoner]

I think in Cali it was Suicidals with Welcome to Venice, DRI, and Dr Know. NY there was a weird thing though I'd say Youth of Today hated Anthrax copping their tag, and you know Cro Mags. I also saw the last Samhain, first Danzig show at the Roxy with Carnivore (who would become Type O- ). Though even at that time I listened to a lot more industrial, and later electronic. The scene died because like the song Ghost town says "too much fighting on the dance floor". I used to bounce later on, and even I would not have worked some shows like I saw Slayer with Motorhead and the pit having thousands in it with people actually having their leg broken. Same thing happened to a friend from Reno at a Ministry, Sepultura, and Helmet show.

 

[Gringnr]

Tiamat I never really got into. Atheist people have suggested to me before. Any particular song recommendations? For some reason I always confuse Atheist with the band Asphyx (who I quite liked). Haven't heard much Cynic I believe. I'm not a huge progressive metal fan though (that stuff tends to be very hit or miss for me). Basically if it sounds like they are playing an epic ton of notes all over the map, I just can't get into he music. For me the emotional reaction I have to a well composed melody and chord progression is more important than super advanced technique (like I appreciate good technique but if it becomes the main focus I start to lose interest). I tend to gravitate towards stuff that is from when genres I like were forming (so Doom Metal bands from the early 80s like Witchfinder General or Saint Vitus to bands like Candlemass, Cathedral and Solitude Aeturnus). Same reason I really like bands like Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. And I like to hear a little bit of strain and muscle in the technique rather than perfection (for instance I will take Randy Rhoads over Steve Vai).

This is probably Cynic's best or worst album, depending on who you ask...


And this is Atheist's latest. If you don't like this, you probably won't like any of their other stuff. The vocals are as much thrash as they are death.


I'm not a musician (though I do have a bass I "plonk" on from time to time, but I get what you mean about endless noodling/wanking/showing off. It's its own kind of boring.

When it comes to doom, I like St. Vitus and Candlemass, but I especialy like funeral doom and deathdoom, so my favorite doom bands are Skepticism, Winter, Ras Algethi, Fungoid Stream, and the like.

I'm definitely morea a fan of death vocals, though I do like Maiden, Fates Warning, Judas Priest, King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, etc. My absolute favorite metal vocalist is Rainer Landfermann, who my wife says, "sounds like someone is stabbing him.".

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Depends on who you talk to, but it's basically an extreme outgrowth of hardcore punk. The line gets a little blurry, though, because there is a definite crossover between grindcore and death metal. Early Carcass is a good example of deathgrind. Terrorizer is grindcore, definitely influenced by death metal, but retaining a lot of the punk focus. I first became aware of grind through friends who "graduated" to it from metal, though it was definitely born out of punk.

Napalm Death are a really strong example of punk crossover because their first ever release was on a Crass Records sampler. The sleeve notes contained the legend "Napalm Death are desperate for gigs. If you can help please ring Barney's mum on xxxxx"

 

[Gringnr]

Punk albums always had the best liner notes. I learned you can smoke quaaludes out of a bong from the liner notes of the Circle Jerks' "Group Sex" album .

 

[BedrockBrendan]

This is probably Cynic's best or worst album, depending on who you ask...

Interestingly this is the one I just found on youtube after you mentioned them. I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but so far one half falls into that style I don't like (cascading notes with not enough of a measured phrasing to them) while the other half I am enjoying. I think I like their chord progressions, but I am less into their guitar lead work. So far at least

 

[BedrockBrendan]

When it comes to doom, I like St. Vitus and Candlemass, but I especialy like funeral doom and deathdoom, so my favorite doom bands are Skepticism, Winter, Ras Algethi, Fungoid Stream, and the like.

Saint Vitus is an interesting band. Candlemass I feel is the most iconic Doom band (they kind of define the genre for me).

The time frame you are talking about is around when I got off it (when it started dividing into all kinds of doom subgenres). That stuff all went in interesting directions but I have trouble getting into them (I think I like it more when you have a few elements of each one present). The only modern doom bands I've found that I like are Khemmis (who I think are unbelievable) and Mount Salem (because I am a sucker for organ and I like her vocal delivery). Most of the doom bands I enjoy are those older ones: Candlemass, St. Vitus, Trouble, Solitude Aeturnus, Cathedral, Cirith Ungol, etc. My favorite albums are Beyond The Crimson Horizon (this changed how I approached power chords, lyrics, and how my band approached vocals---singer was doing death growls before we found Solitude Aeturnus and Candlemass):

My other favorite would be Forest of Equilibrium by Cathedral, which I've already posted, but this is my favorite song on it: