That Metal Thread Hasbro issues & the future of DnD

[BedrockBrendan]

And this is Atheist's latest. If you don't like this, you probably won't like any of their other stuff. The vocals are as much thrash as they are death.

They are definitely a good band. I can hear the talent. But this is certainly a sound I have trouble appreciating (not knocking it though because I do understand how hard it is to achieve what they are doing here). And I will say I love some of the chords they are landing on. At about the 14:30 mark they have a riff that keeps landing on this beautiful distorted chord (if I had my guitar on hand I would try to figure out what it is). So there is probably some stuff here I could appreciate, even though I find this style challenging, if I gave it a few listens.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I'm definitely morea a fan of death vocals, though I do like Maiden, Fates Warning, Judas Priest, King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, etc. My absolute favorite metal vocalist is Rainer Landfermann, who my wife says, "sounds like someone is stabbing him.".

The opening to that song is really cool. I respect the expressiveness of the vocals and the amount of stuff going on in the background to amplify it. Actually once it kicks in, I quite like his vocals. The shift in the middle is a nice contrast to the first half. Overall I like this one. In the second half his screams work really well. Like I said I am a fan of John Tardy and Chuck Schuldiner's death vocals because they cut through, have character, and both seem to have a sense of rhythm that catches my ear (some death vocals just become a blur to my ear). So this works for me because it is expressive and distinct. Expressive is something I am usually looking for in any band

This is Khemmis. They go low and slow but still manage to be melodic:

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I'm not a musician (though I do have a bass I "plonk" on from time to time, but I get what you mean about endless noodling/wanking/showing off. It's its own kind of boring.

When it comes to doom, I like St. Vitus and Candlemass, but I especialy like funeral doom and deathdoom, so my favorite doom bands are Skepticism, Winter, Ras Algethi, Fungoid Stream, and the like.

I'm definitely morea a fan of death vocals, though I do like Maiden, Fates Warning, Judas Priest, King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, etc. My absolute favorite metal vocalist is Rainer Landfermann, who my wife says, "sounds like someone is stabbing him.".

How long have you been playing bass for? That is an instrument I have always been meaning to pick up. I played guitar, mandolin and keyboards growing up (and only really delved fully into the guitar, using the other two instruments occasionally for song writing purposes). I don't play in bands these days. I pretty much play at home and occasionally record something on garage band by layering different parts and vocals. But between hearing loss and loss of sensation in my hands and feet, my playing is a bit rickety and off presently.

 

[Gringnr]

Saint Vitus is an interesting band. Candlemass I feel is the most iconic Doom band (they kind of define the genre for me).

The time frame you are talking about is around when I got off it (when it started dividing into all kinds of doom subgenres). That stuff all went in interesting directions but I have trouble getting into them (I think I like it more when you have a few elements of each one present). The only modern doom bands I've found that I like are Khemmis (who I think are unbelievable) and Mount Salem (because I am a sucker for organ and I like her vocal delivery). Most of the doom bands I enjoy are those older ones: Candlemass, St. Vitus, Trouble, Solitude Aeturnus, Cathedral, Cirith Ungol, etc. My favorite albums are Beyond The Crimson Horizon (this changed how I approached power chords, lyrics, and how my band approached vocals---singer was doing death growls before we found Solitude Aeturnus and Candlemass):
My other favorite would be Forest of Equilibrium by Cathedral, which I've already posted, but this is my favorite song on it:

Trouble and Cirith Ungol are faves. Solitude Aeturnus I'd never listened to before. SInger reminds me of the dude from Fates Warning, which is a compliment. Have to give this some more spins. Cathedral I like.

The opening to that song is really cool. I respect the expressiveness of the vocals and the amount of stuff going on in the background to amplify it. Actually once it kicks in, I quite like his vocals. The shift in the middle is a nice contrast to the first half. Overall I like this one. In the second half his screams work really well. Like I said I am a fan of John Tardy and Chuck Schuldiner's death vocals because they cut through, have character, and both seem to have a sense of rhythm that catches my ear (some death vocals just become a blur to my ear). So this works for me because it is expressive and distinct. Expressive is something I am usually looking for in any band

This is Khemmis. They go low and slow but still manage to be melodic:

This reminds me of a slower Slough Fegh, but with some deathy parts. Not sure how I feel about it.

How long have you been playing bass for? That is an instrument I have always been meaning to pick up. I played guitar, mandolin and keyboards growing up (and only really delved fully into the guitar, using the other two instruments occasionally for song writing purposes). I don't play in bands these days. I pretty much play at home and occasionally record something on garage band by layering different parts and vocals. But between hearing loss and loss of sensation in my hands and feet, my playing is a bit rickety and off presently.

I've had the bass for about a year, but I don't "play", really. I have been goofing off with video lessons, but haven't approached it with any real seriousness. I did just get the Dave Ellefson "Metal Bass" DVD lessons, though. So, who knows? It's a 5-string I got for Christmas last year. I had asked for a 4-string, but the extra low string is really cool to have, sounds killer, so it turned out to be a happy accident. really, I'd be happy just to be able to to plonk out some Ramones or Grim Reaper from time to time.

Sounds like you've been playing a good long time. That's really cool. Kinda jelly, ngl.

 

[Gringnr]

This is probably my all-time favorite doom record. It has a lot of clean vocals, you might like it. I don't think the singer is technically very talented, but he's not trying to pull off anything crazy here. Vocals are a bit muddy, though. Still, If I had to pick an all-timer doom album, this'd be it. VERY atmospheric, and, I hesitate to say it, but pretty in places.

 

[chuckdee]

Nah we have permanent company.

I keep telling you that the voices inside don't count!

 

[Bunch]

I keep telling you that the voices inside don't count!

They pay rent so I don't care!

 

[Fenris-77]

I just wanted to say that I love that this is now a 'metal' thread. this changes everything about how I might respond. i'm going to have to think a bit.

 

[Endless Flight]

I just wanted to say that I love that this is now a 'metal' thread. this changes everything about how I might respond. i'm going to have to think a bit.

I had a lightbulb go on over my head when I saw what direction the thread was going. I might make this a thing now on because of the tangents threads take.

 

[Fenris-77]

I had a lightbulb go on over my head when I saw what direction the thread was going. I might make this a thing now on because of the tangents threads take.

At the very least I now have to play a thrash song or two before I respond, which might, spread wide, make for a less aggro thread, perhaps.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Trouble and Cirith Ungol are faves. Solitude Aeturnus I'd never listened to before. SInger reminds me of the dude from Fates Warning, which is a compliment. Have to give this some more spins. Cathedral I like.

I think Cathedral is exceptionally good, especially that first album. One of the big draws to Solitude for me, besides the guitar work was the cleaner vocal style. But it wasn't as over the top as Candlemass (who I also like). It was a bit more natural sounding. And he had some significant power

I've had the bass for about a year, but I don't "play", really. I have been goofing off with video lessons, but haven't approached it with any real seriousness. I did just get the Dave Ellefson "Metal Bass" DVD lessons, though. So, who knows? It's a 5-string I got for Christmas last year. I had asked for a 4-string, but the extra low string is really cool to have, sounds killer, so it turned out to be a happy accident. really, I'd be happy just to be able to to plonk out some Ramones or Grim Reaper from time to time.

Sounds like you've been playing a good long time. That's really cool. Kinda jelly, ngl.

I think I have been playing for over thirty years now. I got my guitar in seventh grade I think, and started seriously playing around 8th grade. But I was surrounded by music as a kid. Well over half of my family played instruments, and we had things like an electric air powered organ that I learned to play things like Silent Night on when I was a little kid. But one thing about having so many relatives who were musicians was, while it made access to music more readily available (my uncle took me to buy my first guitar, and my mom brought me to get a mandolin because she had learned the accordion growing up and wanted me to learn an Italian instrument), you were surrounded by people who were way better than you. I even had cousin who I was very close to who got his guitar about the same time as me. He figured out how to play Powerslave on the ride home from buying his first guitar. It took me months to get anywhere near that good. So I learned to just take my time and develop at my own pace (which was slower than many other people in my family) but I discovered after about a two year hump, that I had a knack for song writing and that I could pick up certain techniques pretty well if I worked on them. I didn't get 'good' until about 10th grade. At that point I was a lot more comfortable with my playing. The key is really to work on fundamental techniques for a bit each day, then reward yourself with more fun stuff like messing around on the fret board.

The good thing is this is probably one of the best times in history to learn an instrument because you can go on youtube and get lessons on every aspect of playing it. And bass is a good one because the fundamentals of bass are fundamentals that a lot of guitar players gloss over or speed through (it is easy to not pay as much attention to rhythmic structure when you can play a bunch of pretty chords). One thing you might find helpful is playing bass over albums you like (since I don't play with bands anymore, that is pretty much what I do). My cousin, the one who figured out powerslave, plays bass and I noticed that that made his guitar playing that much better because it is so foundational. There are also tons of great music theory channels now too (though I have to admit I still have trouble following that stuff once it gets past a certain level).

 

[BedrockBrendan]

This is probably my all-time favorite doom record. It has a lot of clean vocals, you might like it. I don't think the singer is technically very talented, but he's not trying to pull off anything crazy here. Vocals are a bit muddy, though. Still, If I had to pick an all-timer doom album, this'd be it. VERY atmospheric, and, I hesitate to say it, but pretty in places.

I can see why you like this. I do like the vocals. It is very atmospheric.I even hear almost like a Pink Floyd sound in there at times. I like a lot too the harmonies they are using. I also like guitar tone better from this earlier period. The guitar tone on this album is quite good (I find when I listen to newer metal music the guitar tone is too smooth or something for my tastes).

 

[Fenris-77]

So something I find interesting. When someone's played guitar for 30 years we just assume they're probably really good. But if someone's played RPGs for that same 30 years, people get all manner of shitty about how 'good' they might be.

 

[Endless Flight]

So something I find interesting. When someone's played guitar for 30 years we just assume they're probably really good. But if someone's played RPGs for that same 30 years, people get all manner of shitty about how 'good' they might be.

Well, it depends on how much time you put into it. People can play guitar for 30 years but they might just noodle on it and maybe know a few songs. Then you got guys like my cousin who played in punk bands for years and could take apart and put guitars back together fairly easily.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

So something I find interesting. When someone's played guitar for 30 years we just assume they're probably really good. But if someone's played RPGs for that same 30 years, people get all manner of shitty about how 'good' they might be.

Well, playing guitar for 30 years isn't an upward trajectory unless a person fully commits. I plateau'd long ago and probably have experienced considerable decline (I was taking classes on keyboard composition in the late 90s and able to write sheet music for the class, today I could never do that because I'd get all confused by the key signatures). There is a big difference between playing all the time every day and actively engaging by being in a band or working on some kind of project and just screwing around on the guitar in your live-in room here and there. In fact me and my cousins tried to record the Funeral March of Queen Mary about four years ago (I was going to use it in a promo video) with guitars doing all the brass parts. But both of us forgot how to read the key signature and we were both very slow reading anyways, so like three of the notes kept coming out sour. I had to ask someone who knew more than me to help me figure out the notes (and then our timing on the harmonies was too off so I still couldn't use it). Now I am content to just do it as a hobby

 

[Fenris-77]

Well, playing guitar for 30 years isn't an upward trajectory unless a person fully commits. I plateau'd long ago and probably have experienced considerable decline (I was taking classes on keyboard composition in the late 90s and able to write sheet music for the class, today I could never do that because I'd get all confused by the key signatures). There is a big difference between playing all the time every day and actively engaging by being in a band or working on some kind of project and just screwing around on the guitar in your live-in room here and there. In fact me and my cousins tried to record the Funeral March of Queen Mary about four years ago (I was going to use it in a promo video) with guitars doing all the brass parts. But both of us forgot how to read the key signature and we were both very slow reading anyways, so like three of the notes kept coming out sour. I had to ask someone who knew more than me to help me figure out the notes (and then our timing on the harmonies was too off so I still couldn't use it). Now I am content to just do it as a hobby

I agree with you completely. I was talking about how people tend to treat those two things more than anything that is actually the case.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Well, it depends on how much time you put into it. People can play guitar for 30 years but they might just noodle on it and maybe know a few songs. Then you got guys like my cousin who played in punk bands for years and could take apart and put guitars back together fairly easily.

I was never good at the gear side of things. To this day I am terrified to adjust the action on my guitar (I'm always worried about breaking the neck when I try it). That is an aspect of playing I leave to others. Stringing it is about as far as I go in that department.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm a not-terrible karaoke singer. That's as close as I get to this topic.

 

[dragoner]

Then there are like the orphans of neither hardcore or metal-
pitchshifter too

 

[Gringnr]

So something I find interesting. When someone's played guitar for 30 years we just assume they're probably really good. But if someone's played RPGs for that same 30 years, people get all manner of shitty about how 'good' they might be.

I think older players, especially those with big egos and bad attitudes, tend to view RPGs as some esoteric skill, a calling, or something that not everyone can do. Which is a bunch of horse-pucky.

Anyone can do RPGs. Sure, the hobby was founded by adults. But, in the decades since, roleplaying games have been successfully played and run by countless junior high schoolers the world over. Anyone can play an RPG. Anyone can be a GM.

In my hometown of Phoenix, AZ, there was a school for stand-up comedy. Some local comedians took issue with the idea that people could be "taught" to be funny. The owner of the school, himself a comedian, said, "People teach brain surgery. You can teach people how to tell jokes." I feel the same way about RPGs.

Almost every RPG rulebook I've ever seen has GMing advice. Not once have I seen one of those books caution that you may not be able to figure it out, or instruct you to "get an adult to help you." This whole mystification of RPGs is false and useless.

The whole concept of being "good" at RPGs is malarkey, and it's usually peddled by people who are trying to be a "big deal" in the hobby. What do the boxes say these days? Ages 12 and up? Bragging about being "good" at RPGs is like being 35 and bragging about being good at Pop Warner football. It's literally designed so kids can do it.

 

[TJS]

People do rpgs so differently that skill among players can be difficult to compare.

You may have a player who can spot traps in an old school dungeon like nobody's business, but is completely at sea in a game involving nuanced political intrigue with long conversations in characer.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think older players, especially those with big egos and bad attitudes, tend to view RPGs as some esoteric skill, a calling, or something that not everyone can do. Which is a bunch of horse-pucky.

Anyone can do RPGs. Sure, the hobby was founded by adults. But, in the decades since, roleplaying games have been successfully played and run by countless junior high schoolers the world over. Anyone can play an RPG. Anyone can be a GM.

In my hometown of Phoenix, AZ, there was a school for stand-up comedy. Some local comedians took issue with the idea that people could be "taught" to be funny. The owner of the school, himself a comedian, said, "People teach brain surgery. You can teach people how to tell jokes." I feel the same way about RPGs.

Almost every RPG rulebook I've ever seen has GMing advice. Not once have I seen one of those books caution that you may not be able to figure it out, or instruct you to "get an adult to help you." This whole mystification of RPGs is false and useless.

The whole concept of being "good" at RPGs is malarkey, and it's usually peddled by people who are trying to be a "big deal" in the hobby. What do the boxes say these days? Ages 12 and up? Bragging about being "good" at RPGs is like being 35 and bragging about being good at Pop Warner football. It's literally designed so kids can do it.

Yeah, malarky generally. That said, when I talk about being 'good at RPGs' (which I am) I'm talking about being good as player in a wide variety of groups, I'm talking about the ability to run games for a wide variety of groups in a wide variety of systems, and, perhaps most importantly, I'm talking about a deep understanding of RPG design and what that's supposed to look like in play.

 

[Gringnr]

Then there are like the orphans of neither hardcore or metal-
pitchshifter too

Fun Fact: Godflesh was co-founded by Justin Broadrick, who played guitar on Side A of Napalm Death's seminal debut, Scum.

 

[Fenris-77]

Fun Fact: Godflesh was co-founded by Justin Broadrick, who played guitar on Side A of Napalm Death's seminal debut, Scum.

You, sir, are an agent of thread drift. Congratulations.

 

[Gringnr]

Yeah, malarky generally. That said, when I talk about being 'good at RPGs' (which I am) I'm talking about being good as player in a wide variety of groups, I'm talking about the ability to run games for a wide variety of groups in a wide variety of systems, and, perhaps most importantly, I'm talking about a deep understanding of RPG design and what that's supposed to look like in play.

Understandable. I'm more talking about the kind of person who thinks that playing or running elfgames is something only a select few can really be good at.

 

[Fenris-77]

Understandable. I'm more talking about the kind of person who thinks that playing or running elfgames is something only a select few can really be good at.

Yeah, I know, and those people are insufferable suck holes.

 

[dragoner]

Fun Fact: Godflesh was co-founded by Justin Broadrick, who played guitar on Side A of Napalm Death's seminal debut, Scum.

They were on the same label also earache, which iirc Bolt Thrower were also on and who used to play war hammer -

 

[Gringnr]

There's a really great book called Choosing Death: the Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore that goes into the early history of the music and the labels. It's pretty fascinating, and not too thick.

 

[dragoner]

People do rpgs so differently that skill among players can be difficult to compare.

You may have a player who can spot traps in an old school dungeon like nobody's business, but is completely at sea in a game involving nuanced political intrigue with long conversations in characer.

Some people are really good, naturally spinning a good yarn, though even the best often have a bad day.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

They were on the same label also earache, which iirc Bolt Thrower were also on and who used to play war hammer -

Bolt Thrower got Games Workshop to produce their second album; a really close relationship there.Something gives me a vague clue that Sabbat may have played Warhammer as well.

 

[dragoner]

Bolt Thrower got Games Workshop to produce their second album; a really close relationship there.Something gives me a vague clue that Sabbat may have played Warhammer as well.

The chaos patch was everywhere, I had one on my jeans vest opposite the crass football.

 

[Baragei]

They were on the same label also earache, which iirc Bolt Thrower were also on and who used to play war hammer -

Not only did you absolute maniacs manage to make me scroll through a D&D-thread, but you also got Bolt-Thrower in it! Well done! Well done, indeed.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

In general, I think that "alternative" bands and geek culture crossed over pretty quickly.

This indie classic is pretty much just a summary of late 80's geek culture.

 

[Gringnr]

Buddy of mine worked for Games Workshop in the US around the time Bolt Thrower's "Realms of Chaos" came out, and he said it was on constant rotation there.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

They were on the same label also earache, which iirc Bolt Thrower were also on and who used to play war hammer -

Earache was a good label.

My favorite Bolt Thrower song has always been unleashed (it just got such a big sound):

 

[CRKrueger]

I think the problem now is that the third string games have almost no visability at all. Hell, even the second tier stuff like WoD struggles to get attention.

It's the bitter irony of the modern market. We have a wider variety of RPGs available then ever before, but D&D is also more dominant than ever before.

It's why I don't agree with the argument that D&D doing well has a positive effect on the rest of the hobby. I don't think it does much harm either, but D&D is by this point a separate hobby to RPGs. Same as the rise of Warhammer 40k didn't lead to any kind of boom for miniature wargaming in general

Yeah, it's not a Hobby as much it is a Lifestyle Identity Brand.

You're into 40k, you're probably ALL-IN on 40k, but might not even know WTF Age of Sigmar is. There's gameshops I've seen that only have D&D and Pathfinder. They may have never seen another RPG.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, it's not a Hobby as much it is a Lifestyle Identity Brand.

You're into 40k, you're probably ALL-IN on 40k, but might not even know WTF Age of Sigmar is. There's gameshops I've seen that only have D&D and Pathfinder. They may have never seen another RPG.

I' not sure that D&D is a lifestyle choice in quote the same way that 40K is. I have been exactly that guy, and I've never found D&D to be quite the same level of hardcore. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Voros]

There's a really great book called Choosing Death: the Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore that goes into the early history of the music and the labels. It's pretty fascinating, and not too thick.

Yeah I have that and is really good.

I've never dug the cookie monster vocals in death metal and grindcore even though I'm a big fan of early Napalm Death and Death. For me the music is what I dig moreso than the vocals.

My preference is for more out-there punk-style vocals in heavy music: The Melvins, Jesus Lizard and Doom extremists like Sun0))) and Khanate.

 

[CRKrueger]

A lot of the problem is that the OSR, and seemingly the hobby as a whole, has basically handcuffed itself to D&D. As a rising tide lifts all boats, a drought shall surely ground them.

Been reading Talislanta 4th edition lately, and there's just so much more to gaming, even if you limit it to fantasy. Which, there's no reason to even do that.

British RPG fans seem to celebrate Fighting Fantasy, Warhammer, Dragon Warriors, etc. Americans? D&D or die. IDGI.

If for some reason I could no longer play Mythras, I'd go into Harn, Rolemaster, WFRP, Talislanta/Arcanum, etc. Then there's the OSR/Adjacent. Hell, my group still wants me someday to run Dragon Age.

I could easily spend the rest of my life without WotC affecting me in the slightest.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Yeah I have that and is really good.

I've never dug the cookie monster vocals in death metal and grindcore even though I'm a big fan of early Napalm Death and Death. For me the music is what I dig moreso than the vocals.

My preference is for more out-there punk-style vocals in heavy music: The Melvins, Jesus Lizard and Doom extremists like Sun0))) and Khanate.

That reminds me, there was that heavy metal band Billy Joel was in (most of the heaviness came from the organ I think):