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I noticed the following as I was checking to see what I'd need to do in order to run a Destroid Recon style game.

The Tomahawk has a Toughness of 43(25).

A Battle Pod seems extremely unlikely to scratch it, as the twin particle cannons of the Battle Pod do a combined damage of 3d10+2 with 10 points of AP. So the Battle Pod still needs to roll a 33 minimum (37 minimum to actually do damage), which seems unlikely without a raise and at least an Ace or two.

The Spartan also has this same 43(25) toughness. Meanwhile the Defender and Phalanx have much more reasonable values of 23(8). The Monster isn't in the book*, so I can only imagine how completely invulnerable it would be.

I also noticed the Battle Pod gets a +1 to hit because of the twin linked nature of their guns. That means they need a 3 or better on a d6. They'll hit 66% of the time (standard pod pilots have d6 skill). The Tomahawk doesn't care, but the VF-1 sure will.

Also, the VF-1 gets screwed because of the gun pod. The Gun Pod has a RoF of 3. Due to the vehicle weapons rules, any vehicle weapon with an RoF of 3 or more can only be fired at a minimum of Rof 2. This means that recoil penalties come into play. So a VF pilot will need a 6 or better to hit with the gun pod, but at least will have multiple rolls.

* Edit: Missed the Monster because it didn't have a picture and it got a bit lost in the text flow. The Monster has a 57(36) toughness. Not much can scratch one beyond the heaviest missiles in Zent inventory or larger capital ship weapons.
 
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I noticed the following as I was checking to see what I'd need to do in order to run a Destroid Recon style game.

The Tomahawk has a Toughness of 43(25).

A Battle Pod seems extremely unlikely to scratch it, as the twin particle cannons of the Battle Pod do a combined damage of 3d10+2 with 10 points of AP. So the Battle Pod still needs to roll a 33 minimum (37 minimum to actually do damage), which seems unlikely without a raise and at least an Ace or two.

The Spartan also has this same 43(25) toughness. Meanwhile the Defender and Phalanx have much more reasonable values of 23(8). The Monster isn't in the book*, so I can only imagine how completely invulnerable it would be.

I also noticed the Battle Pod gets a +1 to hit because of the twin linked nature of their guns. That means they need a 3 or better on a d6. They'll hit 66% of the time (standard pod pilots have d6 skill). The Tomahawk doesn't care, but the VF-1 sure will.

Also, the VF-1 gets screwed because of the gun pod. The Gun Pod has a RoF of 3. Due to the vehicle weapons rules, any vehicle weapon with an RoF of 3 or more can only be fired at a minimum of Rof 2. This means that recoil penalties come into play. So a VF pilot will need a 6 or better to hit with the gun pod, but at least will have multiple rolls.

* Edit: Missed the Monster because it didn't have a picture and it got a bit lost in the text flow. The Monster has a 57(36) toughness. Not much can scratch one beyond the heaviest missiles in Zent inventory or larger capital ship weapons.
Thanks for posting all this! Do you think that was sloppy design without play testing or on purpose for some other reason?
 
Same here with me as well towards players who refuse to read a table and/or make character concepts that do not fit into a campaign then complain they made a useless character. If it's a D&D campaign where the main enemies are spiders and similar creatures and the endgame enemy is going to be Lolth of some similar creature. Making a character with crippling incurable Arachonophobia is on you.

I am interested in the book and it is at an It every close to me yet at 40$ just not worth it for such a small sized book imo. I expect a full hardcover at that price. That being said I will get the PDF as it is very affordable.

Speaking of the devil and Paladium yet another email advertising yet another aale. It is beginn8ng to reach harasement levels imo. Once, twice threefold or more in a row. I wish they would make as much effort into advertising sales as they would getting book out. The company imo just seems to have thrown away any and all pride to make a quick buck. Don't get me wrong I like money yet their are limits. The company is starting to remind me of the person who whenever they get invited to a family event is always beginning for money. They must REALLY be that desperate for cash at this point. Don't even get me started on their selling unedited manuscripts, for cash.
 
Thanks for posting all this! Do you think that was sloppy design without play testing or on purpose for some other reason?

My initial impression is that the Tomahawk stats were not tested in combat.

Having done this kind of thing before, I suspect what happened was the author simply used pre-existing Toughness values of other existing vehicles he felt filled the same niche as the mecha in question. The VF-1 and Battle Pod have the same toughness as the F-15 in the corebook. The Tomahawk/Spartan have the same toughness as the T-72 tank from the corebook. The Monster has the same toughness as the M1 Abrams tank from the corebook. The Defender and Phalanx seem to be using very slightly tweaked values from the M4 Sherman tank. The Comanchero is using the Apache helicopter toughness, and the Glaug Officer's Pod seems to be using a very slightly tweaked version of the same. There's nothing wrong with using that kind of thing as a baseline. But it always needs a bit of tweaking.

I want to like this book. Reading it has genuinely given me the warm fuzzies and want to do some Robotech again.

But the more I read and look at it, the more I'm left with that feeling that this is a second take on the 1986 Palladium Macross book. It's like the author went through that book and remade it. I'm not saying plagiarizing at all. I'm saying they used that old book as a template, and created their own version, not with the same notes, but used the same arrangement to make their own tune. When they encountered things that needed stats, they converted those stats to nearest existing Savage Worlds analogue. It's Palladium Robotech through the lens of the Savage Worlds system.

My completely inexperienced first thought on what to do with the Tomahawk's toughness? Make it a 28 (11). This makes it tougher than the Defender/Phalanx, and a Battle Pod's P-Beams have a pretty solid chance of messing it up.

I'm also making the unsupported leap that there are Wild Card Mecha and Extra Mecha. Wild Card Mecha can sustain multiple wounds (5 wounds in the case of most of the mecha in the book), while Extra Mecha are wrecked by a single wound.
 
I guess if no one has any input, I'll shut up, but I was doing some mock combats this evening, having a VF-1 fight three pods.

I started with the assumption that vehicles can be Wild Cards or Extras. The VF-1 was always a Wild Card. The Pods were always Extras. I assumed the VF-1 had 3 bennies, and the Pods never had any.

With the default rules, the VF-1 with a "default" pilot (the sample Veritech pilot template with no further additions) is TOAST. The VF-1 effectively can't hit anything. Even if he does hit, the 3d8 AP6 gun pod is unlikely to do a wound without a raise on the attack roll. Meanwhile, the Pods hit every single time and end up doing multiple wounds.

What was interesting about this was seeing the interaction of the Soak rules. I was kind of lucky, but as long as the Bennies held out the Veritech pilot could mitigate damage nicely. Since it was keyed off his Vigor stat, this gave a feeling that he was pulling hard Gs to get out of the worst of the attack.

It ultimately didn't help, though. In multiple tries the best the default Veritech did was kill a single pod.

Under the default rules Rick didn't do much better. The Pods cut him to ribbons as well. Rick put up a better fight, though. He had a more reasonable chance of hitting and getting a raise, meaning he could actually kill a pod or two.

So, I decided to start tweaking stuff.

First off, I started doing hit rolls for the Pods to hit the Veritech as a contested check of Gunnery versus Pilot. I handled this as only one Defender check per initiative card. So three Pods rolled their attacks and the Veritech rolled one defensive Pilot check for all three. This immediately and vastly improved the simulating the show aspect. Suddenly the Valkyrie actually had a chance.

(The idea was that a Wild Card defender always got a defense roll while Extras were always static to hit numbers.)

I also eliminated the recoil penalty for the VF-1's gun pod. I assumed the Veritech's advanced computers were compensating and negating the penalty.

After this, Rick could slaughter three basic pods with relative ease. Meanwhile the default VF pilot still had problems and was in danger, but wasn't getting immediately murdered. This made the combat engine somewhat simulate the kind of thing we see in the battle at the end of Reconstruction Blues.
 
I guess if no one has any input, I'll shut up, but I was doing some mock combats this evening, having a VF-1 fight three pods.

I started with the assumption that vehicles can be Wild Cards or Extras. The VF-1 was always a Wild Card. The Pods were always Extras. I assumed the VF-1 had 3 bennies, and the Pods never had any.

With the default rules, the VF-1 with a "default" pilot (the sample Veritech pilot template with no further additions) is TOAST. The VF-1 effectively can't hit anything. Even if he does hit, the 3d8 AP6 gun pod is unlikely to do a wound without a raise on the attack roll. Meanwhile, the Pods hit every single time and end up doing multiple wounds.

What was interesting about this was seeing the interaction of the Soak rules. I was kind of lucky, but as long as the Bennies held out the Veritech pilot could mitigate damage nicely. Since it was keyed off his Vigor stat, this gave a feeling that he was pulling hard Gs to get out of the worst of the attack.

It ultimately didn't help, though. In multiple tries the best the default Veritech did was kill a single pod.

Under the default rules Rick didn't do much better. The Pods cut him to ribbons as well. Rick put up a better fight, though. He had a more reasonable chance of hitting and getting a raise, meaning he could actually kill a pod or two.

So, I decided to start tweaking stuff.

First off, I started doing hit rolls for the Pods to hit the Veritech as a contested check of Gunnery versus Pilot. I handled this as only one Defender check per initiative card. So three Pods rolled their attacks and the Veritech rolled one defensive Pilot check for all three. This immediately and vastly improved the simulating the show aspect. Suddenly the Valkyrie actually had a chance.

(The idea was that a Wild Card defender always got a defense roll while Extras were always static to hit numbers.)

I also eliminated the recoil penalty for the VF-1's gun pod. I assumed the Veritech's advanced computers were compensating and negating the penalty.

After this, Rick could slaughter three basic pods with relative ease. Meanwhile the default VF pilot still had problems and was in danger, but wasn't getting immediately murdered. This made the combat engine somewhat simulate the kind of thing we see in the battle at the end of Reconstruction Blues.
I appreciate all your input!!
 
That sounds badly flawed to me. It seems like PCs would be stepping into roles like those of the heroes on the cartoon, and thus should be able to blast numerous Zentraedi out of the sky with one missile hit or machinegun burst apiece, while their Veritech fighters fly rings around the battlepods and seldom get hit. I'm surprised this was published with so many obvious issues.
 
Does Savage Rifts do anything special with mecha? Or does it also assume the basic cover based shooter system for ranged mecha combat? Are there any other mecha oriented Savage Worlds settings?
 
As a fan of both Savage Worlds and Robotech, I don't think the two are suited for each other. Savage Worlds is a fine pulp action RPG but like EmperorNorton EmperorNorton said, simply "scaling up the numbers" doesn't make it a decent mecha combat system.
 
Does Savage Rifts do anything special with mecha? Or does it also assume the basic cover based shooter system for ranged mecha combat? Are there any other mecha oriented Savage Worlds settings?
Savage Rifts doesn't. They're basically just tanks with legs, and their weapons are scaled accordingly. Obviously, the weapons are all Mega Damage (i.e. Heavy) so they're in the same boat. The multitude of dice mean that Acing damage is pretty much how you get past the heavy armor with lighter weapons. Here's the UAR-1 Enforcer for comparison:

Savage Foes of North America said:
Coalition UAR-1 Enforcer: Size 6, Crew 1+1, Strength d12+4, Toughness 33 (15), Pace 10
Notes: M.D.C. Armor
Weapons:
Heavy Grenade Launcher (use WI-GL20 stats) (grenade, ROF 3)
Heavy Rail Gun (4d10+4 AP18 ROF 3)
Light Missile Launchers (two) (6d6 AP8 MBT ROF 1 Pld 8)
Medium Lasers (two turrets) (3d10 AP10 ROF 1)
Medium Missile Launcher (8d6 MBT ROF 1 Pld 4)
Mini-Missile Launcher (turret) (5d6 AP6 ROF 1 Pld 12)
As you can see, it has a Pace (and 2d6 run die) instead of a speed. They can make melee attacks and stomps as well.

I've read that there's some changes in the 2nd Edition, but I'm not part of that playtest; lots of people say they're dissatisfied with an increase in armor levels that make robots too tough.
 
Does Savage Rifts do anything special with mecha? Or does it also assume the basic cover based shooter system for ranged mecha combat? Are there any other mecha oriented Savage Worlds settings?

I've been looking around for anything which could be construed as Savage Mecha, and I haven't been able to find anything.
So far, it looks like for mecha-based RPGs the best bet is either one of the old classics (Mekton Z, Jovian Chronicles) or trying one of the new systems (Battle Century G, the new Lancer as soon as it's done).
 
I have no plans to run Robotech, but I do eventually want to have some mech combat in my Savage Worlds game, so I am interested in this discussion.
 
I had been wondering if the author of Savage Robotech had been assuming the use of some other, pre-existing mecha rules from another book. Looking towards Savage Rifts seemed an obvious direction.

In my previous reading of Savage Worlds a few years ago, one of the things which stuck out to me was the idea of world rules. It seemed there were a wide selection of plug and play world rules which could be used to customize settings. I just sort of figured that actual setting books would have more elaborate world rules when needed to simulate their respective settings. Maybe that's true for others, but it doesn't seem true for Savage Robotech. There are a few world rules, but they don't seem all that impactful. This matches the feeling I got from Adventure Edition that world rules have been de-emphasized. Maybe that's not really the case, but it's the feeling I'm coming away with.

Well, here are my final thoughts on Savage Robotech for a while.

It's standard Savage Worlds with a Robotech: Macross Saga equipment list. It could definitely be used to run Robotech on the Savage Worlds engine, but I feel some tweaks would be required. Mostly they're simple tweaks. I think I'd switch to contested ranged combat rolls. I'd also change the way missiles function (no contested roll on the lock, but allow evasion). Some of the mecha and weapons need some value tweaks, because a few of them are completely unbalanced and unusable otherwise. Of course mecha would be either Wild Cards or Extras (which the book may be indirectly saying by claiming the mecha are like "characters").

It has been interesting for me to have this book while re-learning Savage Worlds. Most of the time when I learn a new system, I'm trying to see how it would handle something I'm familiar with, which leads to me basically doing conversions as I learn. In this case, I had a supplement with pre-made material of something I was very familiar with. I think it made me way more interested in re-learning the system than I ordinarily would have been. It definitely gave me practical applications of what I was learning.

What disappoints me is what I've found searching online for discussion of the material. I haven't found anyone talking about playing Macross with it. I haven't found anything more than the most superficial evaluation. I don't think I've gone very deep, but other analysis elsewhere of the book seems to amount to "yep, there are mecha in it." There's no talk about how it works in play or even any mention of play.

I've been thinking this for the past several posts in this thread, but have resisted saying it. I really don't want to say this, because it seems like something a certain pungent RPG figure would say about an RPG product. In this case, I just can't shake the feeling, though. This book doesn't feel like it's meant to be played or evaluated even on the level I've given it. It very much feels like it's supposed to sit on your shelf next to your other Savage Worlds stuff so you can say you have a Savage Worlds Robotech book. It feels like something you flip through to be nostalgic about Robotech, but not actually play.

There's definitely a chance I'm projecting. Any omnipresent supernatural being knows that my RPGs tend to go on the shelf and collect dust. Maybe I'm just in an uncharitable mood today. But that's where my opinion lies right now.

I don't think I'll be trying to run or play Robotech with Savage Worlds anytime soon. I'm planning on saving my enthusiasm until the print version of the SMG Macross game reaches my hands. I'll see how that one goes. But Savage Worlds may get some use as a system for an X-Com game, and my partner wants to run a Blade Runner game, so I may try to sell him on Savage Worlds for that. I'm enthusiastic about Savage Worlds, just not for Robotech.

If someone else decides to run some Macross with Savage Worlds, definitely post something about it, because I'd be interested to see how it worked for you.
 
From what you've described, it doesn't sound like anyone involved in writing and publishing it ever actually played out some battles using the rules or they would have quickly realized it doesn't emulate the cartoon.
This book doesn't feel like it's meant to be played or evaluated even on the level I've given it. It very much feels like it's supposed to sit on your shelf next to your other Savage Worlds stuff so you can say you have a Savage Worlds Robotech book. It feels like something you flip through to be nostalgic about Robotech, but not actually play.
For better or worse, there are quite a few RPGs that don't seem to have been created with the intention that anyone would actually play them.
 
I've been thinking this for the past several posts in this thread, but have resisted saying it. I really don't want to say this, because it seems like something a certain pungent RPG figure would say about an RPG product. In this case, I just can't shake the feeling, though. This book doesn't feel like it's meant to be played or evaluated even on the level I've given it. It very much feels like it's supposed to sit on your shelf next to your other Savage Worlds stuff so you can say you have a Savage Worlds Robotech book. It feels like something you flip through to be nostalgic about Robotech, but not actually play.
That's exactly what I did with, G Gabriel. I've only ran Savage World once (a pirate game), but I was just so excited to see Robotech in a new RPG that I snagged it.
 
My thoughts as someone that's run a lot of Savage Worlds, did some design-work for it for my table, and currently doing Savage design stuff for publication...

I have *never* run mecha-combat in Savage Worlds. All my experience with it has been with character-level and slight super-human power-levels. But the thing I'm currently working on will most certainly have stuff that stretches into Mecha-powered combat.

I've *never* quite trusted Savage Worlds at high-power levels. On paper I know what they're going for. But I also know that it requires a lot of abstract adjudication to capture the "feel" of it. I own all the Savage Rifts stuff - and I'm dying to run it for the purposes of this very discussion and to give myself that experience to objectively see it in action. One of the big criticisms I have of Savage Worlds is not the system, but the "re-use" of material when the setting calls for a more specific touch.

I *get* that there are space concerns, and theyr'e scared of "power-bloat" - but the fact is by adhering to what's been done before and erring on the most common approximation of abstraction - for example Heavy Weapons = Megadamage - loses some of the fidelity of the intent of that particular quality.

For instance - in Rifts Megadamage is accurately Heavy Weapons - but what Megadamage means in Rifts mechanically expressed is different on paper than what the Heavy quality means in Savage Worlds as expressed. MD weapons will *obliterate* a non MD armored target on contact *usually*. Heavy quality weapons do nothing but affect any armor with the Heavy quality. They don't do anything extra damage-wise. The *problem* is that while Heavy weapons tend to do more damage than non-heavy weapons... it's pretty small by comparison.

Example:

JA-11 Energy Rifle Range: 30/60/120 DMG - 3d6 ROF:1 AP: 2 Ammo: 60 Weight:7
Notes: Can be adjusted as an action to fire an ion beam (use stats for NG-57 above) or Mega Damage
mode; each shot expends 10 ammo, and is made with the Snapfire penalty. Integrated scope with night vision and laser targeting (offset two points of Range and/or Darkness penalties).

Wheras the standard infantry model stats that is Non-Mega Damage is actually better against non-Mega Damage opponents for no particular reason other than they didn't want to make the Heavy quality more powerful (like ignoring non-Heavy armor - or hell even giving it +1AP per die). Even the AP on the non-Mega Damage rifle has more AP!

JA-9 Variable Laser Range: 40/80/160 Damage: 3d6+1 ROF:1 AP:3 Ammo:30 Weight: 6
Notes: Integrated scope with night vision and laser targeting (offset two points of Range and/or darkness penalties).

When you get to actual Mecha... it's a little better because they increase the damage values of the weapons.

Triax X- 535 Hunter: Size 4, Crew 1,
Strength d12+4, Toughness 25 (8), Pace 34
Notes: M.D.C. Armor
TX-843P Part icle Beam Cannon (shoulder platform mount). A short-range, anti-armor infantry weapon
(Range 150/300/600, Damage 3d10, RoF 1, AP 4, Mega Damage)
TX-862FC Anti-Aircraft Flak Gun (alternate shoulder platform mount). A double-barreled, rapid-fire cannon for long-range infantry support and
static defense (Range 200/400/800, Damage 7d6, RoF 2, AP 6, Mega Damage, SBT)
TX-884I Ion Cannon & Missile Launcher (alternate shoulder platform mount). This weapon system combines a Medium Ion Cannon with a Medium Missile Launcher

So you can see the damage is higher... as it should be. But if it were going up against the UAR Enforcer... it would be a very tough fight. I''m not saying the values are too low. The abstraction curve of Savage Worlds is not linear, the values beyond a certain point get very destructive, so I totally get why they cap it. I can *see* how it should play out on paper.

I think for non-Mega Damage it should be uglier (not sure this is pertinent to the discussion - but I'm saying it because the abstraction of Heavy weapons is maintained *because* of their need to uphold the simplicity of the Heavy quality - without giving Mega Damage any more consideration. Which for the purposes of Mecha-combat I think should be modified on a setting-level rule.

But again - I need to run and play this out a bit to really feel comfortable making the claim. I'm doing it only because I think it might help.
 
Looking at Miniature Market today, I see there are three new Battlefield Press Robotech books for Savage Worlds upcoming.

Two (Return to Earth and Into the Void) seem to be adventure books? Return to Earth seems to be Macross Reconstruction Era RPGing. Into the Void seems to be Sentinels? The third is listed as a Revised version of the Battlefield Press Savage Worlds Robotech Macross book.

I wonder what will be revised? My opinion is that many of the mecha need a careful look and restats. In addition, there need to be some custom rules created for mecha combat.

I have to admit I'm disappointed. When I saw the listings, I thought the other two were going to be further material from SMG for their version of the Robotech RPG. Initially, SMG said they would be releasing a single book covering Sothern Cross/Mospeada, but there has been no word about that for a very long time. In the updates I get from them since ordering, it doesn't seem there is any further development going on for their Robotech RPG.
 
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