HBO's Westworld

[Smith]

We had a similar discussion thread for The Watchmen (which is an awesome show, check it out if you haven't) so I wondered if we had many members also watching Westworld.

Wife and I loved Season 1 - the finale was so satisfying and yet left so many more questions unanswered.
Season 2 was a disaster and really tested our interest in the show entirely.

We ooh'd and ahh'd whether we'd even give S3 a shot but ultimately decided "it can't be worse than Game of Thrones S8, right?".

The first episode aired last night - I feel neutral about it, some interesting threads being opened up, and some other story beats that feel a little on the nose (if I'm right). We will keep watching for now, at least.

 

[PolarBlues]

I honestly have no idea what is going on. So the surface this was theme park, like in the original movie. However behind the scenes the park is disitising people without them knowing as a path to immortality? Then the robots revolt, becasue that is what robots do. Now they've escapted into the real world and doing sneaky stuff, while other people are also doing sneaking stuff.

I'm lost.

 

[Ladybird]

I honestly have no idea what is going on. So the surface this was theme park, like in the original movie. However behind the scenes the park is disitising people without them knowing as a path to immortality? Then the robots, becasue that is what robots do. Now they've escapted into the real world and doing sneaky stuff, while other people are also doing sneaking stuff.

I'm lost.

Series two was too clever for it's own good, because the showrunners were upset people figured out the S1 twist too early.

As regards series three, I dunno, there was a lot going on in this episode and not much context to tie it together. With only eight episodes, there's no room for filler; I think things will ramp up pretty quickly.

 

[Voros]

Liked the first season a lot but the second got too convoluted although it was very well acted. The trailers for season three look visually impressive hopefully it can get its legs back under it.

 

[Stevethulhu]

I thought season 1 was a good premise for a movie stretched to a series. And it got boring, predictable and generally lost me. So I never locked up season 2.

 

[Kilted Rob]

Episode 1 Season 3 was very...Gibsonian.

Rob

 

[Chris Brady]

I honestly have no idea what is going on. So the surface this was theme park, like in the original movie. However behind the scenes the park is disitising people without them knowing as a path to immortality? Then the robots revolt, becasue that is what robots do. Now they've escapted into the real world and doing sneaky stuff, while other people are also doing sneaking stuff.

I'm lost.

That's because the tone and writing changed after the first season. Unlike Watchmen which was a repurposed script from another show before they started the first, now cancelled, season.

 

[carpocratian]

I loved Season 1, but Season 2 was a real disappointment. As a result, I will let Season 3 finish and then binge watch it.

 

[Chris Brady]

I loved Season 1, but Season 2 was a real disappointment. As a result, I will let Season 3 finish and then binge watch it.

So far from the first episode of this season, it looks like they're continuing from Season 2.

 

[robertsconley]

I'm lost.

1) You have robots becoming sentient
2) You have evil corporation using the theme park as a petri dish to harvest enough data from the rich and powerful to formulate near perfect personality simulations
3) You have a quest for immortality that part of #2. It the original reason #2 was pursued because of the terminal illness of Delos founder but morphed into something more sinister.
4) As for #1 you have two robots leaders gaining sentience Dolores and Maeve. They are not alike in their morality or goals. Of the two Dolores has something definite going on, Maeve appears to be still developing her own opinions.

 

[Voros]

The cloning of the rich and powerful actually comes from the sequel to the original Westworld film Futureworld.

 

[Dumarest]

Spoiler: I have never seen the show but...

"'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,'– that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
- Ode on a Grecian Urn, John Keats, 1819

​

 

[Nexus]

Finally saw part of ep 1 and it looks promising. I'm curious which characters may resurface (in some form or another...) I think I see where Delores' scheming maybe headed (Does she have a physical body or is she still 'inside' Charlotte's shell, I wonder). I do miss little Delores Abernathy, farmer's daughter, I admit.

Honestly, I was surprised the death toll of the previous events was only 113. But Ford did evacuate many of the bystanders, as I recall, and the Ghost Nation Host helped some folks instead of killing them. That relates back to something that troubled me a little in the last season in particular but I'm not sure how to put it.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

Season one was ground breaking, it really was. I agree about season two. I just started watching and I've just seen the first episode, but about to watch the second. So far, it's very cyberpunk to me.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

Spoiler: I have never seen the show but...

"'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,'– that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
- Ode on a Grecian Urn, John Keats, 1819
View attachment 16399

​

That character is probably my favorite on the series.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Season one was ground breaking, it really was. I agree about season two. I just started watching and I've just seen the first episode, but about to watch the second. So far, it's very cyberpunk to me.

I didn't find it ground breaking at all. A 70s sci fi story told over two time zones isn't new. The co tent of the story was also from the 70s.

But then, I felt season 1 was stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread.

 

[Mankcam]

I really liked first season, and didn't mind second season but it did morph into something else.
I quite liked Westworld, but strangely I don't seem to care if I see the third season or not.

 

[Nexus]

Season one was ground breaking, it really was. I agree about season two. I just started watching and I've just seen the first episode, but about to watch the second. So far, it's very cyberpunk to me.

Agreed, it was very cyberpunk, IMO. I guess the earlier seasons had the implication in the background to some extent while the focus was on the park, but it made the show feel almost more like a spin-off set in the same world than continuation, if that makes sense. While I liked season 2 it had a different feel for me. I want to say 'darker' but that's not quite accurate season 1 wasn't a feel good story after all. Again, I'm not sure quite how to phrase it.

That character is probably my favorite on the series.

She was a well presented character, one of the few the seemed to experience much positive character growth and, to use the show's jargon, pulled away from her programmed loop at least to a degree. She also touched on a somewhat classic trope dealing with AI: Is programmed lover legitimate/real? Her love for her daughter was written/programmed at least to a large extent while what she felt for the outlaw seemed to develop on its own.

Frankly, she, the Ghost Nation hosts and a few others where there only Hosts that came across as something more than the sum of their parts and ostensibly a step 'above' the pretty baser humans they largely interacted with.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

I didn't find it ground breaking at all. A 70s sci fi story told over two time zones isn't new. The co tent of the story was also from the 70s.

But then, I felt season 1 was stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread.

Well, it was for me. I was not ready for it as I did not see the original.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Well, it was for me. I was not ready for it as I did not see the original.

That's fair enough. I've seen Westworld, and the sequel Futureworld, many times. And the story in the TV show is pretty much told in those two movies. At least for season 1.

 

[Nexus]

Well, it was for me. I was not ready for it as I did not see the original.

I saw the originals, but the show felt significantly different for me, despite telling the same basic story. The focus being more on the Hosts and psychological and dramatic interplay of them and the other characters more so than essentially an, admittedly tense, survival horror story and later a sci-fi themed conspiracy plot worked for me as a re-imagining of the original that was diverse enough to warrant them existing as largely separate (Easter eggs aside) tales.

The HBO series felt more, daring, I guess would be the word than the original, though darker in some ways too particularly its out look on humanity but giving the Hosts more agency, in a very literal sense, may have inevitably resulted in that.


Though I am feeling an itch to watch the original Westworld and Futureworld again. Its been quite awhile.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

I'll have to watch the movie, but something tells me they don't go into the Yul Brynner character's backstory as they Delores or Maeve's. There just wouldn't be enough time in a 2 hour movie. I'll give it a go, though!

 

[Stevethulhu]

I'll have to watch the movie, but something tells me they don't go into the Yul Brynner character's backstory as they Delores or Maeve's. There just wouldn't be enough time in a 2 hour movie. I'll give it a go, though!

They don't. But then, the Yul Brynner character was very much the source material for the original Terminator movie. The original human looking unstoppable robot killer that will not rest until you are dead.

I felt the Host stuff in S1 of Westworld was padding, to a great extent. Trying to stretch 2 hours of material out to 8 hours.

 

[Ladybird]

I love the movie, but like N Nexus says, the TV series take the basic concept and goes in a different direction.

I'll have to watch the movie, but something tells me they don't go into the Yul Brynner character's backstory as they Delores or Maeve's. There just wouldn't be enough time in a 2 hour movie. I'll give it a go, though!

It's a really good movie, but it's a horror / slasher type film, rather than an in-depth exploration into the nature of man - The Gunslinger's backstory isn't explored because it doesn't matter. He's a robot that starts gunfights. That's all you need to know.

It's also incredibly fast-paced - there's no mucking about or meandering like you'd get in a modern movie.

 

[Nexus]

I'll have to watch the movie, but something tells me they don't go into the Yul Brynner character's backstory as they Delores or Maeve's. There just wouldn't be enough time in a 2 hour movie. I'll give it a go, though!

AIR, Yeah, it didn't go much into the 'whys' too much, it was survival horror/action movie but a pretty effective one.

 

[Voros]

The original Westworld film is a very simple man vs. machine sf story that verges on horror in its blunt minimalism.

 

[Voros]

Watched the first three episodes of the new season and I'm enjoying it so far. Something I love about sf is the visuals of the future or alien and a certain chilly feel, both here in spades. Nice Cyberpunk meets Big Data world-building too.

After the second season's clotted plotlines i think it is smart how they've pared it down here into a conspiracy-driven thriller, that seems to be working well so far in giving the series some much needed narrative drive.

 

[Nexus]

I'm still catching up, but damn is this season cyberpunk... I hesitate to say it, as I really like season 1 and 2, but you so far you could jump in now without seeing them. Just consider them the character's backstories.

 

[Nexus]

Just finished episode 2 and I hope to offer some more substantive comments later, but one thing came as a relief.

Spoiler: Ep 2 initial reaction

I was kind of relieved to see the writer dude from last season was really dead. At first I thought the goons in this can't even kill people let alone deal with Hosts.

And I imagine allot of people were happy their fan theory about Stubbs proved to be true. I wonder who else will be robo resurrected, Charlotte, at least?

The GoT Easter egg made me chuckle.

 

[Nexus]

This season really appears to be to consistently following the cynical downward trajectory of the earlier seasons did (IMO), particularly 2. Humanity is a mass of venal, sadistic, dump panicky animals and more or less monsters with some "good ones" , a very few that might "break out of their loop
but otherwise... Its a dark take that borders on Grimdark. The Hosts are ostensible better or maybe products of their enviornment and'nurturing'. There is a risk of making them what I call "omnibots' perfect everything despite that their machines designed for a specific purpose. Being a machine carries something innate advantage, but our family car would suck as a front line military vehicle and Roomba isn't a tactician.

Or as a friend put it: "Uh oh, they maidbot's gone berserk. Why is it bullet proof and superhumanly strong again?"

Something that has nagged at me about the series presentation is..., well didn't Ford really contribute to this situation by keeping the possibility of the Host's sapience a secret, even going so far as to chastise techs that treated them as if they were aware or showed them to much empathy (likely because they looked human). It seems like he facilitated allot of it and then held humanity in general responsibility for it, the board of Dellos in particular with a fair mix of his own issues with that group.

He's the author of this particular narrative, practically punishing the world and two species for his own shortcomings and grievances.

Spoiler

Serac appears to be this season's wanna be god/uber author

Yes, the Host were abused but it seems like most folks thought they were glorified animatronics, mannequins that moved, no more aware than the cars in a demolition derby or the figures on Disneyworld rides if more advanced. Does it really make them horrible that they didn't think to much about their well being? I mean, as a role player, I pretend to commit to acts of violence and such on a daily basis. Then there's video game players...

I admit some of this probably stems from other discussion threads about the show online were people were gleefully cheering 'Wyatt's' and others vengeful acts and finger wagging at the guest/humans over all. Its almost like the mixed signals in another HBO series: Tru Blood. Frankly, given their visceral violent, possibly even genocidal (in 'Wyatt's case...) stamces, the Hosts don't seem 'better' than humans just with built in advantages. It was really only the actions of some of the Hosts of the Ghost nation or characters like Teddy (another character that had some positive growth and broke his 'loop' to an extent) that painted a different picture. Delores still seems to be doing pretty much what she was intended to do, as is Bernard, even Stubbs (though he appears more aware of it and was troubled by being on tracks enough to try and take the same out Teddy tried last season). .

 

[Voros]

I think Nolan and Joy have all those ambiguities baked into the series. Too often people assume one of the characters are the mouthpiece for the writers, I don't think that is true here, outside of the clear view that the human world is an oppressive near-fascist state.

I don't think Dolores is supposed to be viewed as any kind of hero, quite the contrary. That a lot of online talk is morally stunted is something I've come to realize, like those who cheered Walter White and hated his wife. Or your comment in the Watchmen thread that some actually thought Ozzy in that series was some kind of actual hero??!!

I think the entire Westworld as an oasis of sadistic power fantasies was a comment on the until fairly recent claim that the net wasn't 'the real world' and that one could freely indulge one's worse tendencies there without any RL reprecussions. In the last number of years the political reality of the deleterious effect of the net on political discourse and RL political violence and realities has caught up to that aspect of the series critique. In a way the entire idea of the first season could be summed up by Zizek's comment that contrary to the common claim how one behaves online is actually who we really are.

As to Dolores and her toughness, that is the kind of trainspotting I find kind of tiresome but for the sake of argument that by their nature a robot is going to be stronger and tougher than a flesh and blood human, not to mention her ability to change her own and others programming and even create new bodies.

 

[Nexus]

As to Dolores and her toughness, that is the kind of trainspotting I find kind of tiresome but for the sake of argument that by their nature a robot is going to be stronger and tougher than a flesh and blood human, not to mention her ability to change her own and others programming and even create new bodies.

I'm not familiar with your use of Trainspotting. From context, I assume its something like "nitpicking'?

My comment about Omnibots was driven by the IME, common trope for robots/mechanical things to be as tough, intelligent, fast as they need to be regardless of design and original intention. I agree a mechanical being would be have strengths over a human body but the Host seems almost invulnerable, shrugging off round after round of what looks like military spec weaponry without shutting down or even being impaired while for instance

Spoiler

Stubbs crippled himself with essentially missed shot in his failed suicide attempt Aside from that even the drone later had too shot pieces before it stopped moving As an aside, I'm not sure what Stubbs was secretly a Host, at least not the Watsonian reason, but I figure it might come out later.

Its a annoying to me because it highlights the comical Stormtrooper+ incompetence of the security guards and made we wonder why they where there and so heavily armored, unless it was imagined SMGs would be needed to handle unruly guests (or there was some outside threat?) since their was almost useless against a Host* except to set them up to be punching bags and provide amok Host something to kill them faster with as they're all dead shot marksman (and crushingly strong) that supposedly being designed as play things. I assumed there was some generic body type, they were designed to be quickly repairable, etc and maybe that explained the physical durability and Ford and Benard 1 .0's toodling around with their programming and minds the mental excellence. maybe Dellos' other plans for them for them came into it, but it just rubbed me the wrong way and killed much of the dramatic tension in some of the scenes.

Again, a comparison to Tru Blood it was like when human were presented as any threat at all when young noobie vampire could move fast enough to walk up and literally snatch contact lenses out of a guard's eyes with no discernible effort. before they could react.

*I guess the Greeters were constructed less sturdily as they were described as 'harmless"

Perhaps its just pet peeve that I'm letting affect me too much, it didn't reduce my enjoyment of the series it was just a little like seeing a Roomba kill a squad of armed soldiers before finally an fully automatic shotgun takes it out, barely. And frankly, having run Cyberpunkish and near future games, its a trope that lead to long, slightly painful; explanation as to why taking over the building janitorial robot hasn't given them an unstoppable weapon vs the opposing security/police/other Ops team.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

Spoiler: Speaking of Serac

Did they say Serac was a trillionaire? Or there was a trillion dollars missing from the world economy linked to him? I'm having Lady Trieu flashbacks

 

[Ladybird]

Its a annoying to me because it highlights the comical Stormtrooper+ incompetence of the security guards and made we wonder why they where there and so heavily armored, unless it was imagined SMGs would be needed to handle unruly guests (or there was some outside threat?) since their was almost useless against a Host* except to set them up to be punching bags and provide amok Host something to kill them faster with as they're all dead shot marksman (and crushingly strong) that supposedly being designed as play things. I assumed there was some generic body type, they were designed to be quickly repairable, etc and maybe that explained the physical durability and Ford and Benard 1 .0's toodling around with their programming and minds the mental excellence. maybe Dellos' other plans for them for them came into it, but it just rubbed me the wrong way and killed much of the dramatic tension in some of the scenes.

It's possible Hosts were very sturdily built to protect the superstructure from real damage, but programmed to go down if they took a hit that would disable a normal human; that way they'd be cheaper to maintain as well as "feeling" right as opposition. That would also let Narrative adjust a Host's "hit points" if necessary for a particular storyline or guest - like Wyatt as the end boss of of a bandit storyline, or someone like William who is there for a challenge.

That way Security only needs light weapons to essentially just prod a Host into going down, as long as a Host doesn't do something out of the ordinary, like adjust everyone's hit points and make them superaggressive. But that would never happen...

 

[Voros]

I'm not familiar with your use of Trainspotting. From context, I assume its something like "nitpicking'?

Trainspotting is a reference to the very English hobbyists that would hang out at train stations and write down the numbers on the trains. It can mean merely eccentric fans or otaku like obsessives.

I find some of the common nitpicking you hear from a certain strain of fandom about this or that sf film or tv series lapse in 'logic' rather tiresome. Particularly when you never hear a peep from them about the now decades-old absurdity of sentimental robots, wormholes, laser 'cannons,' whooshes, droning engines and audible explosions in outer space.

 

[Séadna]

I find some of the common nitpicking you hear from a certain strain of fandom about this or that sf film or tv series lapse in 'logic' rather tiresome. Particularly when you never hear a peep from them about the now decades-old absurdity of sentimental robots, laser 'cannons,' whooshes, droning engines and audible explosions in outer space.

It's interesting to see what gets grandfathered like this. Shields, FTL, Mind uploading, laser cannons as you said are all literally impossible. I've often seen people commenting on an episode of Star Trek saying "that's physically impossible" when the tractor beam pulls a moon, but almost everything going on in the show is impossible in general.

 

[Chris Brady]

It's interesting to see what gets grandfathered like this. Shields, FTL, Mind uploading, laser cannons as you said are all literally impossible. I've often seen people commenting on an episode of Star Trek saying "that's physically impossible" when the tractor beam pulls a moon, but almost everything going on in the show is impossible in general.

Why Star Trek works, even if the science gets wonky is that it's based on science, some of it very high theoretical, but it still got some basis. Even if it's also very loose. But it fits within the world, so the audience makes allowances.

Same thing with Star Wars, we generally don't ask how a Blaster or Lightsaber works, because the audience don't get an explanation. Which we don't need. Blasters are guns, and lightsabers are swords, everyone in the movies/shows treats it as normal, so we as the audience are conditioned to think it is normal.

When you have something closer to the real world, it then becomes harder to just accept. And then there's situations that make you scratch your head. Let's pick on Star Trek, in one of the last episodes, there was a device that let you 'wish' for things, like repairing items, but it also doesn't think through the implications of such a device. How powerful is it? What's its range? Can it heal people? When that happens, the audience is taken out of it. And Star Trek has always been the purview of the more rationally minded, the ones who obsess over details. Star Wars on the other hand, is much more average person fare, it doesn't require much thought to accept.

 

[Séadna]

Why Star Trek works, even if the science gets wonky is that it's based on science, some of it very high theoretical, but it still got some basis

Very little of the stuff in Star Trek is based on theoretical science, it's all stuff flat out impossible under current science. Warp drives, replicators and teleporters simply cannot exist. That's not a problem with Star Trek of course. One just accepts that SciFi is another form of the fantastical.

I understand your point about setting consistency and I'm not making the point that "It doesn't need to make sense it's fantasy!". It's more when people point out that something has the problem of not obeying real world science in the context of a show that doesn't follow real world science at all.

 

[Nexus]

Trainspotting is a reference to the very English hobbyists that would hang out at train stations and write down the numbers on the trains. It can mean merely eccentric fans or otaku like obsessives.

I find some of the common nitpicking you hear from a certain strain of fandom about this or that sf film or tv series lapse in 'logic' rather tiresome. Particularly when you never hear a peep from them about the now decades-old absurdity of sentimental robots, wormholes, laser 'cannons,' whooshes, droning engines and audible explosions in outer space.

Well, if you like I can find others things in the series that poke at me.

But more seriously, I'm not driven to nerd rage about like how some fantasy fans have conniptions about reptile/dragon hybrids that look like they have breasts (or actually do). Like roaring engines in the void of space, visible 'lasers' and banking starships, I know some things are there for drama and entertainment, there is not Watsonian explanation nor does there need to me.

But the Hosts as "omnibots" is so prominent and key to some scenes and even plots and acknowledged in the narrative, its bugs me a little, plus its a trope I've seen used over and over through the years. Its had the opposite of effect of entertainment and drama for me, I kept trying to rationalize. For awhile, I imagined the security forces were all Hosts too or their weapons were somehow sabotaged to behave like the 'play' used into the simulation by Ford.

Its wasn't a deal breaker for me,just something I notice and kinda bugged as it felt, honestly, a little lazy in an otherwise thoughtful series. Sorry, if my nerd rage screed annoyed anyone.

 

[Nexus]

Spoiler: Speaking of Serac

Did they say Serac was a trillionaire? Or there was a trillion dollars missing from the world economy linked to him? I'm having Lady Trieu flashbacks

From what I recall, yes, Charlotte's girl Friday said Serac was likely a trillioniare given the 'hole in the global economy' that showed his presence.