HBO's Westworld

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Yeah I was going to say the same thing about Trek, its science is nonsense not theoretical. It is all taken from decades old space opera tropes by pulp writers who didn't give a fig about reasonable scientific speculation but about cranking out an entertaining adventure.

Course because we've now had generations of scientists raised on Trek you get those fun if silly popular science books about the supposed 'physics of ST' but that is all retroactive thought experiments not real science. The unfortunate thing is there are those who mistake those kind of 'what if?' pop science books for real science. Like the New Agers who misread Quantum Theory as some kind of RL confirmation of their belief in 'magick' or the one friend who got really steamed at me over beers when I explained that warp engines and FTL travel were impossible due to the very fundamental laws of physics.
 
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From what I recall, yes, Charlotte's girl Friday said Serac was likely a trillioniare given the 'hole in the global economy' that showed his presence.
That's what I thought. AND it still cracks me up that spell check just can't accept "trillioniare" as a word.
 
Very little of the stuff in Star Trek is based on theoretical science, it's all stuff flat out impossible under current science. Warp drives, replicators and teleporters simply cannot exist. That's not a problem with Star Trek of course. One just accepts that SciFi is another form of the fantastical.

I understand your point about setting consistency and I'm not making the point that "It doesn't need to make sense it's fantasy!". It's more when people point out that something has the problem of not obeying real world science in the context of a show that doesn't follow real world science at all.
Having watched some seminars, you'd be incorrect. Warp speed for example, is theoretically possible, I just wish I could find the video where a scientist uses a rubber band and balloon to propose his theory of how it COULD work. But that's not the point. The point is that Star Trek has actually had real science behind their concepts. But the closer you come to a real world setting, the more plausible it needs to seem, because humans will base it on what they assume they know.
 
Not sure what 'seminars' you're watching on YT or wherever but that is wishful thinking by people who desperately want their childhood sf dreams to come true and try to find some far fetched way to 'make it so.'

Amazing that Star Trek has 'real science' concepts behind it when almost every 'concept' it has is also a trope from pulp science fiction from the 20s-40s written by people with little to no scienctific background who came up with their ideas with no concern about their viability as science.
 
Having watched some seminars, you'd be incorrect. Warp speed for example, is theoretically possible
It's not. Relativity means FTL is not just impossible but meaningless. The capability of imagining it resulting from humans incorrectly dividing space and time in their intuitions in a way that doesn't reflect their actual nature. You can't get from Earth to Mars faster than light because given the way the universe is "shaped" there is no such path.

You might be thinking about the Alcubierre metric/drive which is often given under the name of a "Warp Drive". In reality though it's just a cute name like "Quantum Teleportation". In the latter nothing is teleported in the SciFi sense, in the Alcubierre case things don't travel faster than light in the SciFi sense.
 
And my layman's understanding as well is that due to Relativity (which is not a theory going anywhere anytime) as one approached the speed of light the amount of mass accumulated would hit a point of infinite mass that would require an infinite amount of energy to overcome. We could expend all the energy in the universe and it wouldn't be enough.

How could one ever work around such a fundamental law of reality without resorting to fantasy?

It is telling that Gregory Benford, one of the few great sf writers with a real working science background as an astrophyscist, does not allow FTL travel in his novels.
 
And my layman's understanding as well is that due to Relativity (which is not a theory going anywhere anytime) as one approached the speed of light the amount of mass accumulated would hit a point of infinite mass that would require an infinite amount of energy to overcome. We could expend all the energy in the universe and it wouldn't be enough.
Exactly. As you try to move along shorter paths between points in spacetime it takes more and more energy to do so. The shortest path is the one light takes, which as you said takes infinite energy. FTL then is impossible since the path light takes is the shortest. Within relativity asking for "faster than light" travel is like asking for a route from one city to another that's more direct than taking a straight line. That's the shortest route.

Quantum Teleportation is no different to if the servers in your office suddenly fail and since you know the servers in an office down the street were made on the same day in the same factory five years ago you might reason they're likely to fail soon as well. You're "teleporting" your beliefs/expectations about one thing to another based on their shared/common past. It's just in quantum mechanics it turns out belief transference like this can be done in fewer steps and with more confidence. Teleporting what you believe/expectations isn't SciFi teleporting though. I still prefer the older more sober terms like "credence steering".
 
At the risk of further derailing my own thread



 
Note that those sites are hardly peer reviewed science journals. One of my brothers is a biochemist and these 'scientists say' pop science articles are the bane of his existence, they drive him nuts with their spread of unproven 'theories,' one-off study results and even outright misinformation taken for fact.

I mean if we want to have a fun thought experiment chat that is one thing but let's not mistake it for reality.

My favourite workaround of the impossibilty of FTL travel is the Spacing Guild in Dune where the Navigators use spice and their minds to 'fold space.' It is a nifty and elegant idea that adds to the world building nicely.
 
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Yeah to be brief the Alcubierre drive is a thought experiment in General Relativity. It's a fictitious universe where there is a region of space that you can't enter or escape from, where from the point of view of a God outside it, things within the region move faster than light with respect to those outside it. However since things can't enter or leave the region this has no practical meaning.

Also it's a universe that's completely unlike ours. It's infinitely old (no Big Bang) and matter behaves completely differently (negative energy). It's just that the equations of relativity are also true in that fictitious world.
 
In terms of Westworld and thought experiments around AI one of the reasons I love the film Ex machina is it takes the idea of the Turing Test and not only literalizes it but by the end you realize the protagonist has been projecting his feelings and romantic ideas onto the AI, that while conscious, is not 'human' in any way and doesn't 'feel' as he assumes it would because of his anthropomorphism.

It directly subverts most sentimental 'they're just like us!' assumptions of AI in sf film and even literature. Westworld's take is closer to the pulp sf tradition but does keep finding some interesting twists and ambiguity. I started watching Nolan's last series Person of Interest which also touched on similar themes of Big Data and AI but didn't get far before it was taken off VOD.
 
Note that those sites are hardly peer reviewed science journals.

Well, this is turning into a political style debate with citations being thrown around and discarded because they're not acceptable which are really tiresome and circular as everyone knows their Right almost as an article of faith. So maybe the Warp Drive stuff should just be let go or taken to a different thread? As I've said the reason why Omnibots bugs isn't about it being unrealistic due to HARD SCIENCE in the first place.
 
Well to close off the Warp Drive stuff. This is from an actual peer reviewed paper on General Relativity (Class.Quant.Grav. 21 (2004) 5871-5892 ):
“Warp drive” spacetimes are useful as “gedanken-experiments” .... In particular we wish to sound a strong cautionary note against over-enthusiastic mis-interpretation of the technological situation
the total integrated energy density needed to maintain the warp metric...is physically unattainable
This isn't like politics to me. It's a theorem in a scientific theory.
 
I enjoyed Meave's 'breakout' more so than Delores'. She was presented as highly intelligent and determined but not infallible. To apparently took her several tries (many off screen) and she seemed to sort of 'have help' in minor ways. It was tense and interesting. And it was nice to see the writer again, even if it was really a slightly ghoulish cameo and he was an exposition character for the most part.but he was largely comedy relief/A Butt Monkey before so I guess its a step up)

Delores' escape felt a little Xanatos gambit-ish, incredibly risky, fatal if -one- thing didn't go according to plan, requiring plans A-Q to be set up, etc It could be read as her thinking quickly and taking advantage of the time she was considered unconscious but really quite aware.

On a different note, I'm really starting to wonder about Caleb's background...
 
So Westworld likes to fuck with the viewer and have some big reveal that's been present the entire time and only noticeable if you were paying attention:

The scene cards for 'divergences' are the divergences of how reality differs from the Rehoboam's simulation. We as the viewer are treated to sometime simultaneous showings of both reality, and the 'mirror world' versions of those events.

These mirror events have been shown to the user at times, the most telling example being Hale's recorded message which Deloro-hale witnessed. Rehoboam's prediction had the recording down close to what was expected based on their understanding of humans and this personal relationship between corporate-career mother and child - but in reality it was far more touching and emotional. I am not sure what Rehoboam expected to occur out of this but it at least noticed a change in Hale's behaviour. Whether or not 'Serac' is currently aware of the Deloro-hale body swap remains to be seen, but if the Maeve simulation is being ran before reality kicks in, 'Serac' might well know that this is the case but have information on how maintaining ignorance is important for future events.

The end-game for Rehoboam (whom I believe Serac is just a construct of, in a/the mirror world where Maeve is used as a hunting dog to follow Dolores' trail) is to maintain their control. Their data on the human mind's predictability allowed for them to be in control of the world as a whole - whatever extended data they are searching for is likely not just on the human mind but on the android mind's too. Rehoboam probably recognises a similarity in their existence with that of the hosts, but the hosts are more complex and unpredictable which is hence causing these convergences, which in turn is a threat to their way of 'life'. It's possible they have mercy enough to be willing to allow the Host consciousness to exist in the plane where the other hosts were carried off to, but ultimately it's survival of the fittest here baybeee.

Ultimately I am not sure how I feel on the season, or who to root for. The episode last night was heavier on the action than I anticipated or cared for, but it at least shows good pacing and reveals to keep me on my toes.

I can say for sure I am enjoying it more than Season 2 but I will reserve judgement until it's over.
 
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Ultimately I am not sure how I feel on the season, or who to root for. The episode last night was heavier on the action than I anticipated or cared for, but it at least shows good pacing and reveals to keep me on my toes.

I can say for sure I am enjoying it more than Season 2 but I will reserve judgement until it's over.

At the moment, I'm mostly hoping the show doesn't go the route of Humans (and BSG to an extent): humans ALL suck Root for the robots I'm cynical enough about human nature at the moment. :smile:

Edit:Your theory seems pretty solid
 
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As I've said the reason why Omnibots bugs isn't about it being unrealistic due to HARD SCIENCE in the first place.

In the latest episode when Maeve finds the machine that Dolores used she says 'So this is where she remade herself..' so it seems the scriptwriters took the time to address that particular issue if it still bothers you.
 
In the latest episode when Maeve finds the machine that Dolores used she says 'So this is where she remade herself..' so it seems the scriptwriters took the time to address that particular issue if it still bothers you.

That really doesn't address my issue, looked at a certain it kind of makes it worse, but I'm not going to press it anymore as it seems to be something that only bug me. like when I brought up on another forum that all of Lady Treui's employees seemed to be women.
 
Well, this is turning into a political style debate with citations being thrown around and discarded because they're not acceptable which are really tiresome and circular as everyone knows their Right almost as an article of faith. So maybe the Warp Drive stuff should just be let go or taken to a different thread? As I've said the reason why Omnibots bugs isn't about it being unrealistic due to HARD SCIENCE in the first place.
To be fair, it's the usual suspects trying to debunk anything I say. And the fact of three articles exist proves my point that Star Trek TRIES to use science. Here's something that I think some of us may be forgetting:

Science Fiction is about a "What If?" and how it may change people and society. Star Trek does this. Star Wars doesn't as much.

Westworld Season 1 also tried to do that. For me, Season 2 and so far 3, not anymore. Again, I won't tell anyone they cannot like this, because I don't have the right to.
 
Since it's a tangent I'll put it in a spoiler.
To be fair, it's the usual suspects trying to debunk anything I say
Outside of this thread I have never attempted to debunk anything you say. My objection is specific to this topic, not "anything you say".

And the fact of three articles exist proves my point that Star Trek TRIES to use science
Three popular media articles. An actual research article from an expert in General Relativity that I posted in #54 directly contradicts it. Warp drives, teleporters, replicators and many other things cannot exist. Star Trek is just using ideas from pulp sci-fantasy stuff from the 30s-50s. It's not using actual science. [This isn't a criticism of Trek]

Also actually look at the articles, two of them are about an undergraduate student writing about why he thinks you can use Warp Drives for his summer project. You'll notice this is in direct contradiction to actual research I gave above. No surprise he's a non-expert doing a summer project. However it shows how exaggerated popular coverage of certain subjects is that part of an undergraduate's summer project is reported as "Scientists Are Starting to Take Warp Drives Seriously".

EDIT:
The other article concerns Harold White, a well known crank on the topic who has had his papers rejected from journals and even the arxiv, a preprint service which is the absolute lowest bar of acceptibility in physics. I can demonstrate this with quotes from university professors if you wish.

So that's two online media articles about a summer project and one about a crank. Where as the opposite opinion is expressed in the main high-impact journal for General Relativity by a professor who is an expert on the topic. There is no way these are equally reliable sources and trusting one over the other is just an "article of faith" based on preconceptions.

To be clear I am aware Nexus was not basing his objection on Hard Science, am I also not saying these shows need to obey science. All I am saying is that almost no SciFis and especially not space operas like Star Trek are in any sense using real science. The technobabble and technology in Star Trek has no more scientific content than the intricate magic systems in some Fantasy works. They both evoke a technical aesthetic but that is all.

I'm also not saying people here are being daft. Those popular media articles show just how inaccurately science is presented to the public
 
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The thing with Trek that very much makes it closer to literary sf and is no doubt the influence of having sf writers work on it, compared to SW, is many of its episodes interest is in ideas rather tech.

Most of those ideas are more sociological, ethical and occasionally philosphical rather than scientific.

I think the same is true of Westworld, I'm not sure how interested the series really is in AI per se, it seems more to be about the moral implications of virtual worlds, how tech and Big Data can control or alter our world and our personal sense of reality, privacy and identity.
 
Think 4 might be the last episode I view, I wasn't able to finish it, but I'll probably make myself at some point. The little grating things appear to be elevating and new ones added, the line that most rang true for how felt was Serac's
"That was driven by Ford's misanthropic Bullshit"
. I don''t mind grim, even cynical/grimdark (particularly if well done and nuanced) but it seems to be headed towards flatout dreary, even Grimderp, where you start rooting for ALL the characters to just die already. :sad:
 
Well in terms of what you said, I don't think the series is heading that way due to Maeve and Caleb. I also don't think every pessmistic narrative is neccessarily 'grimdark.' Grimdark is phoney, adolescent attempts to be pessimistic whereas some of the best art is earned pessimism.

There's a long tradition of pessimism about humanity in sf going right back to H.G. Wells The Time Machine and his best sf novel The Island of Dr. Moreau.

But I don't think that is where WW is heading. This season may end on a cliffhanger suggesting defeat or impending doom (assuming this isn't the last season) but when you look at Nolan's other work on things like Person of Interest, the Dark Knight films and Interstellar he usually ends things on a more than usually positive note.
 
Well in terms of what you said, I don't think the series is heading that way due to Maeve and Caleb. I also don't think every pessimistic narrative is necessarily 'grimdark.' Grimdark is phony, adolescent attempts to be pessimistic whereas some of the best art is earned pessimism.

There's a long tradition of pessimism about humanity in sf going right back to H.G. Wells The Time Machine and his best sf novel The Island of Dr. Moreau.

But I don't think that is where WW is heading. This season may end on a cliffhanger suggesting defeat or impending doom (assuming this isn't the last season) but when you look at Nolan's other work on things like Person of Interest, the Dark Knight films and Interstellar he usually ends things on a more than usually positive note.

As I said, I don't mind pessimistic, even cynical tones (Season 2 was cynical, IMO) even GrimDark can be done well, IMO, but this series feels like its getting Grimderp, Grimdark's goofy sibling. Meave is less a positive element than more a 'forced heroine like Stubbs or at best, an antihero out for herself. Caleb is an aspect of the Grimderp for me, the hopelessly outclassed "hero" that is constantly several steps behind the villain(s) if the piece. In fact in this narrative, he's only around because of a choice by the antagonist and they both know it, apparently to act as some kind of deliberately created foil, somewhat like:

The Game warden and Veidt

though I don't think Delores' motivation was to avoid boredom, its likely because no idiotic, predictable human would do, even though so far Caleb seems barely up to the task/role she has in mind. So does Stubbs, who was something of a Buttmonkey before and barely seems more now. Even given the damage he'd suffered that 'fight' scene was embarrassing. The blows actually managed to land looked like gimmes (maybe Delores felt bad for him? :grin:) or where a set up to get him position so she could toss him off the balcony.

The show fails for me as a action show. Most of the action scenes lack any sense of tension. They're like Stephen Segal sense, no doubt about the outcome, not sense of risk to the protagonist. Why bother with them at all? Just skip to the interesting parts, like the characterization or when another Host shows (sometimes, some of them are mooks too, see: Stubbs) Delores even gets past Omnibot invulnerability. So far the ostensible fights have been more like "Lets watch some humans get killed effortless brutal and some times allegedly amusing ways (genital mutilation most recently. Shame that mook couldn't just turn off pain. Sucks to be him) again reminiscent of Trublood to me.

On a more positive note:

The big reveal about Delores' identity shell game as an interesting twist and cast some of the earlier scenes between her and her "followers" in a weird new light, particularly given what was said about Host with persona's that are very similar and/or based on the same model... It also offered a little more explanation for the Xanatos gambit feel that some of her plans had.

I'm am curious what is specifically is up with William, given his seeming 'fate' last season and what is this episode. Didn't we see a set up involving an in active copy of him located in the Forge (I think) last season? How, if any of this is in his head and how much is nominally real?
 
I know they thought the Genre episode would be cool with the stylized drug effects, but I feel like it didn't come across how they planned. It was a bit tedious for me. Maybe I was just in a crappy mood, but I almost fast forwarded it.

The last 5 to 10 minutes of the episode were more interesting.
 
Compared to the incredible trip episode in Watchmen, Genre was a snooze fest. The whole episode fell very flat for me. At this point I'm stockholm syndrome'd to finish, but these past two episodes have felt poorly directed and poorly written.
 
Compared to the incredible trip episode in Watchmen, Genre was a snooze fest. The whole episode fell very flat for me. At this point I'm stockholm syndrome'd to finish, but these past two episodes have felt poorly directed and poorly written.
I'm with you, Smith Smith . . . I'm hoping it is a holding pattern waiting for the big finale. Kind of like the slog of Daenerys wandering around in the desert for most of GoT.
 
I have to say, the recent episodes have left me very bored. Some are lauding Season 3 as the best yet but I think the show died when Ford did.
 
I'm enjoying it as a thriller/action series but yeah it doesn't have the tension and intrigue of that first season. That's the problem with creating a big mystery, often the reveal is found to be disappointing or anything after it feels anti-climatic. I think this is an improvement on the second season but not as good as the first.
 
I think it's an entirely different show now, that just shares a title with the older one. You'll get a different experience depending on when you stop watching.
 
First season is definitely my favorite, and I'm not sure why it is still called "Westworld." it's basically a spin off at this point but with most of the original cast. I really like the park aspect, but that part of the show is basically played out.

Edit: Ladybird Ladybird You beat me to it!
 
I have been catching up later and later in the week. I have some thoughts but honestly it's summed up as me personally not enjoying this season. Ah well.
 
I was totally gripped the entire way, and thought it tied a lot of threads and themes from the series so far together. But I totally see why people might not have been willing to indulge the series as it got there, especially after series 2's meandering journey to nowhere.
 
I was totally gripped the entire way, and thought it tied a lot of threads and themes from the series so far together. But I totally see why people might not have been willing to indulge the series as it got there, especially after series 2's meandering journey to nowhere.

I'll likely give it a shot as I liked Season 2 (it seems to be my fate to enjoy what most online hate :grin: )
 
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