Help me get in touch with any of the writers of 4th Edition Legend of the Five Rings?

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Hi folks,

This is a bit weird, but I'm having a rules argument with someone about 4th Edition Legend of the Five Rings and it's reached the point where I can only resolve it by talking to someone who had a hand in writing the game. We've tried everything else. Suffice to say, I'm willing to go to great lengths to resolve this.

I know we're quite a well-connected bunch around here. Does anyone know anybody who worked on 4th edition L5R and would be able to answer a rules-as-intended question?

One of these individuals perhaps?
Shawn Carman, Robert Hobart, Jim Pinto, Brian Yoon, Mason Crawford, Aaron Rubman
 
Not too much help, but Mr. Carmen posts regularly on The Big Purple. Doesn't talk much about L5R 4E much anymore. He works for Catalyst, now.
 
Sean Carmen died? I hadn't heard.

No! At least not as I know.

I was referring to the literary concept of "death of the author". As in, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't consider a game's author to have special right to interpret the rules. The rules are what is written down, not what is written down plus the authors' intent when writing them.

I can't see a bitter rules argument like the one the OP outlines solved by asking one of the authors.

Apologies for being unclear.
 
Out of interest what is the rules dispute? (I'm probably going to resume my 4th edition L5R campaign in next few months).
 
Out of interest what is the rules dispute? (I'm probably going to resume my 4th edition L5R campaign in next few months).

Here, I'll copy paste my writeup of it:

=== Ise zumi tattoos were intended to be limited activation ===

The following argument was had at my table. Can you help us determine who is right?

Position A: Ise zumi tattoos were intended to have limited activations in 4th edition like they had in 3rd edition. That they do not was an editing error, a missing line.

Evidence for position A:
- Why would they include the clause "tattoo effects last a number of rounds equal to twice the character’s School Rank" if tattoos can be activated as a free action as often as needed? All the tattoos listed in the core book either specify no duration or activation limit (in which case you can just keep them active forever at no real cost) or have special durations which make that line pointless.
- Tattoos like the Crane, Ki-Rin, Void and Wolf are written in a way that implies they are not intended to be repeatedly activated all day long for the low cost of a free action, yet there is no line of text specifying that. Crane and Ki-Rin are especially egregious in this regard. Crane effectively gives you handfuls of extra dice on all social rolls without limit since you can simply re-activate it if it ends for some reason. Ki-Rin without limit is many times more powerful than the 9-point Luck advantage.
- Many of the tattoos are as powerful as rank 1 bushi school techniques. Are we to accept that ise zumi can have the equivalent of a school technique AND the ability to switch it for another equivalent of a school technique for a free action when tactically beneficial?
- The 4th edition book, like all L5R books, is unfortunately full of typos and omissions. One more isn't surprising.

Position B: Ise zumi tattoos are intended to work exactly as written and are balanced by the fact that only one can be active at once.

Evidence for position B:
- Neither the official errata, nor the old forum Q&As, nor any threads on reddit have said there was an error. Surely in all this time someone would have heard of the problem and made an official correction?
- Ise zumi are weaker than bushi because they don't wear armor and must use fists, so it's balanced if they can switch between the equivalents of rank 1 bushi techniques. Flexibility is their benefit.
- The "tattoo effects last a number of rounds equal to twice the character’s School Rank" clause was probably included for the sake of future tattoo designs that might appear in future books.
- While 3rd edition L5R had a limit on how many time tattoos could be activated per day, other editions did not.
- The proponent for position B did not have an immediate answer for how the wording of the Crane, Ki-Rin and other mathematically problematic tattoos were supposed to make sense without a limit and suggested asking people on the internet about it.
 
If it's really a sticking point, give them a number of activations per day equal to school rank + associated ring. I'm not certain why this is causing so much friction at your table.
 
If it's really a sticking point, give them a number of activations per day equal to school rank + associated ring. I'm not certain why this is causing so much friction at your table.

Well I know how this is going to sound, and I can already predict some of the responses, but here we go.

The player espousing position B believes I am being unreasonable because of past baggage and an over-attachment to balance. If I force the issue he will lose a great deal of enthusiasm and probably drop out of the campaign. I would much prefer he stayed, but I know my evidence for position A is solid. If I can't make him see it my way on this, I suspect similar arguments will likely keep happening anyway.

I know he takes author intent seriously, so that is the silver bullet I think I need to get out of this impasse and hopefully make him understand we're not kids anymore, it's ok to trust my judgment like all my other players do.
 
Is it really worth fighting over? Just let them have it.
 
If it's really a sticking point, give them a number of activations per day equal to school rank + associated ring. I'm not certain why this is causing so much friction at your table.
A certain kind of player would see this as major issue. Believe me, I know...:thumbsup:

He’s being a whiny little bitch. Tell him to grow up or fuck off.
Basically, this:grin:!
I mean, unless you're married to said player, you're better off with this solution, IME:shade:!

Seems like Mr. B. might be searching for a reason to leave the campaign.
...maybe. In which case, what CRKrueger said, namely the "or else" clause, applies in spades:tongue:!

I mean, I'm usually all for giving stuff to the players. But with some players asking for extra stuff is just the symptom of the problem:gunslinger:!
 
Somehow I knew it would be the Tattooed Monks causing grief!

As much as those Dragon Bastards get on my nerves as a GM, :wink:, I think overall B is correct.

Some of it comes down to the fact that Tattooed Monks should not be treated like regular samurai. Their bonus to social skills via Crane Tattoo are in the context of a monk using social skills. Social skills are not mind control and a samurai, particularly a dishonourable or politically minded one can safetly (but of course politely) ignore what a monk says regardless of what the dice says. Equally a samurai can ignore a challenge from an impertinent monk without loss of face.

If on the other hand the PC insists they are a samurai, that's fine but the tattoos need to be exposed to be used so walking into a party bare chested as a samurai would incur the appropriate penalties etc. And of course in a duel if the combatants can't decide on weapon katana is used. Brawling with fists during an Iaijutsu duel is highly dishonourable and seppuku worthy.

These are just some illustrative examples off the top of my head

The point is ise zumi monks are feared and respected but are also monks. The tattoos and flexibility they provide are a way of balancing that in my opinion.

(BTW I have had to deal with Tattooed Monks in my campaign, they add great flavour but can be a pain in the arse as a GM).
 
I'm also inclined to side with B and partially I would base that on the idea that each edition needs to stand on its own legs as opposed to assuming a new edition requires knowledge of a previous edition to function.

The biggest case in point would be L5R 4th edition vs L5R 5th edition; they have nothing to do with one another. Also, many rules in newer editions were explicitly written to deviate from a previous edition. The second edition reversed the primary function of the rules; the third edition reverted to the 1st edition method of play and added extra wrinkles. 4th edition specifically set out to pull back in players of 1st edition.

It would be best to look at each edition in isolation when trying to determine any given rules' intent.
 
I'm also inclined to side with B and partially I would base that on the idea that each edition needs to stand on its own legs as opposed to assuming a new edition requires knowledge of a previous edition to function.

The biggest case in point would be L5R 4th edition vs L5R 5th edition; they have nothing to do with one another. Also, many rules in newer editions were explicitly written to deviate from a previous edition. The second edition reversed the primary function of the rules; the third edition reverted to the 1st edition method of play and added extra wrinkles. 4th edition specifically set out to pull back in players of 1st edition.

It would be best to look at each edition in isolation when trying to determine any given rules' intent.
Out of curiosity, how do those changes impact the setting?
 
HAH, the setting of L5R! :grin: Internally it blows up every 5 to 10 years, if not more frequently (in real world it blows up every other year). It's Apocalypse World.

Let's just say 4e really couldn't bring back the fans of 1e, and all in all everyone was kinda OK that the CCG & RPG seppuku'ed itself with post-Pearl CCG remake into an LCG & "5e" RPG. The designers lost the thread years ago, and AEG staff was too stoned or navel gazing to care. But like comics, the die-hard fans were harassing the corpse for a few years afterwards, like a pack of terriers until it opened up with guts spilling everywhere.

Bitter? Not me! :irritated:
 
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Between here and reddit, how can so many people back position B!?

It's like people are only reacting to one section of my evidence and not taking them as a total package. Take it as a whole!

Everyone keeps giving me roleplaying methods for kneecapping tattooed monks when the far easier solution is to accept the obvious author error.

I guess we have to go deeper.

Here's the exact rules text for how the tattoos work in general:

Below are a few of the tattoos found upon members of the
Togashi Order. There are countless dozens or even hundreds
in existence, some unique, but those listed below are those
most commonly encountered. Members of the Togashi Order
gain these mystical tattoos in lieu of Techniques at Ranks 1,
3, and 5 (as described above). Tattoos can only be activated
if they are exposed; tattoos covered by cloth or armor cannot
be used. Unless otherwise specified, the following conditions
apply to all tattoos: they can be activated as Free Actions,
only one tattoo may be active at a time, and tattoo effects
last a number of rounds equal to twice the character’s School
Rank.

Notice that clause at the end about tattoo effects lasting a number of rounds. That clause literally does nothing for any of the tattoos in the book IF you can activate them infinite times as a free action. Why is it there? Here is an example of a normal tattoo, most of them are like this, with no special duration notes or restrictions:

Bamboo: The bamboo plant is ubiquitous throughout
the Empire, and is well known not only for the speed
with which it grows, but also its durability. While this
tattoo is active, your Armor TN is increased by an
amount equal to twice your School Rank + 5.

Rules-as-Written, I can keep this up forever. It's not that big of a problem until you consider it's as strong as a rank 1 bushi technique AND the monk gets a second tattoo option as strong or stronger. Yes he can only have one active at a time under the current text, but why should he be that much more flexible?

But that's not important, I could let that slide. Let's take a look at that Crane tattoo in detail:

Crane: The crane is a symbol of luck and beauty.
When you activate this tattoo, you gain a number of
bonus dice equal to your School Rank plus your Air
Ring. These dice may be spent on any Social Skill
Rolls. Each die contributes a bonus of +1k0. If these
bonus dice are not used within an hour, they are lost.
You may not add more bonus dice to a single roll
than your Void Ring. This tattoo is considered active
the entire hour, and if another tattoo is activated,
any unspent dice from this tattoo are lost.

Read that carefully and compare it to the general tattoo rules. REALLY read it. Notice the problem? That's a lot of effortful restriction text that does nothing. If I can activate this tattoo an unlimited number of times per day as a free action, I ALWAYS have a big pile of dice to add to ANY social skill roll. It's significantly better than most courtier school techniques AND the monk still has a second tattoo on top of that.

It's like the tattoo was written assuming a very limited number of uses per day or something, hmm...

But the crown jewel is this one, the Ki-Rin tattoo:

Ki-Rin: There are few omens of good fortune more
signifi cant than that of the sacred ki-rin. Upon activating
this tattoo, you may immediately re-roll any
one roll per round, keeping the higher of the two
results.

A non-monk character can actually get an ability like this that works three times a day. It's called Luck and it costs 9 character points. How much do you think the unlimited rerolls of the Ki-Rin tattoo would be worth in a game with exploding dice and super deadly combat? No rank 1 bushi technique is worth the equivalent of 9 points, let alone whatever this monstrosity is worth, rules-as-written. AND the monk still gets a second tattoo to pair with this one!

These are just some of the issues, I could keep going. So I ask again, which is more likely:

A) A line of text about only being able to use tattoos a limited number of times per day was accidentally omitted in the conversion from 3rd edition to 4th edition.

or

B) All these bizarrely pointless lines about durations and all these busted tattoos that even an amateur wouldn't design are actually intentional?
 
Out of curiosity, how do those changes impact the setting?
The mechanical changes didn't effect the setting because the AEG folks did something kinda ridiculous regarding the setting...
HAH, the setting of L5R! :grin: Internally it blows up every 5 to 10 years, if not more frequently (in real world it blows up every other year). It's Apocalypse World.

Let's just say 4e really couldn't bring back the fans of 1e, and all in all everyone was kinda OK that the CCG & RPG seppuku'ed itself with post-Pearl CCG remake into an LCG & "5e" RPG. The designers lost the thread years ago, and AEG staff was too stoned or navel gazing to care. But like comics, the die-hard fans were harassing the corpse for a few years afterwards, like a pack of terriers until it opened up with guts spilling everywhere.

Bitter? Not me! :irritated:
L5R 1st through 3rd edition had their storylines completely fueled and tied to the Collectible Card Game. The basic idea, touted in a newsletter all those years ago, was to encourage interest in the RPG from the CCG fans and to encourage interest in the CCG by the RPG fans. This was stupid for several reasons; 1)The CCG fans didn't care about the RPG 2) The RPG fans didn't give a rip about the CCG. There was very little overlap.

At first, these changes were at least acceptable. The Scorpion clan coup was interesting and the box set has driven years of gaming for many people. That was the first and last good change.

Every so often, the CCG tournaments would happen and there would be a new book or boxed set that incorporated the changes wrought by the results of the tournament. The major shake-ups would happen when there was a new edition and this was where the problems started.

As the CCG got crazier and crazier, so did the setting changes; the setting went from gritty low fantasy to gonzo stupid; to make matters worse, it had the World of Warcraft issue of uber-NPCs who did things like being actual dragons in human form who were both rank 6 bushi and rank 6 shugenja and had breath weapons, etc, to introducing or eliminating or exiling clans left and right. Or nearly ending the world. Or bringing the Crab off the Wall. Or replacing the entire pantheon until that caused such an outcry they reversed it immediately, but all the Clans lost their founding family heads.

L5R 4th edition did two things that were very well received (and just a good idea in general): it became timeline agnostic and introduced two books chock full of alternative settings. Some were ok, some were awesome, but they were all derivations on previous timelines, with the exception of Rokugan in Spaaace!

The very best thing about L5R 5e is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the CCG AT ALL. However, I think that has more to do with the fact that two different companies own the two different games now.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Between here and reddit, how can so many people back position B!?

It's like people are only reacting to one section of my evidence and not taking them as a total package. Take it as a whole!

Everyone keeps giving me roleplaying methods for kneecapping tattooed monks when the far easier solution is to accept the obvious author error.

I guess we have to go deeper.

Here's the exact rules text for how the tattoos work in general:



Notice that clause at the end about tattoo effects lasting a number of rounds. That clause literally does nothing for any of the tattoos in the book IF you can activate them infinite times as a free action. Why is it there? Here is an example of a normal tattoo, most of them are like this, with no special duration notes or restrictions:



Rules-as-Written, I can keep this up forever. It's not that big of a problem until you consider it's as strong as a rank 1 bushi technique AND the monk gets a second tattoo option as strong or stronger. Yes he can only have one active at a time under the current text, but why should he be that much more flexible?

But that's not important, I could let that slide. Let's take a look at that Crane tattoo in detail:



Read that carefully and compare it to the general tattoo rules. REALLY read it. Notice the problem? That's a lot of effortful restriction text that does nothing. If I can activate this tattoo an unlimited number of times per day as a free action, I ALWAYS have a big pile of dice to add to ANY social skill roll. It's significantly better than most courtier school techniques AND the monk still has a second tattoo on top of that.

It's like the tattoo was written assuming a very limited number of uses per day or something, hmm...

But the crown jewel is this one, the Ki-Rin tattoo:



A non-monk character can actually get an ability like this that works three times a day. It's called Luck and it costs 9 character points. How much do you think the unlimited rerolls of the Ki-Rin tattoo would be worth in a game with exploding dice and super deadly combat? No rank 1 bushi technique is worth the equivalent of 9 points, let alone whatever this monstrosity is worth, rules-as-written. AND the monk still gets a second tattoo to pair with this one!

These are just some of the issues, I could keep going. So I ask again, which is more likely:

A) A line of text about only being able to use tattoos a limited number of times per day was accidentally omitted in the conversion from 3rd edition to 4th edition.

or

B) All these bizarrely pointless lines about durations and all these busted tattoos that even an amateur wouldn't design are actually intentional?
There is...a lot to dig into here, and I am prepping for a game I run this evening. I'll dig into my L5R 4th ed books later and give a full response.
 
I think for me there’s a few things you are discounting a little too easily.

First the is the basic premise that the tattoos are overpowered when they have unlimited uses. I disagree with this premise and so when I have GM’d I haven’t been really digging much deeper into how the rules were written. From my perspective having GM’d a fairly long running game with a Dragon monk (Crane and Dragon Tattoo to start with) I think the tattoos are powerful but they don’t overshadow the other PCs which for me is more important than strict balance.

Not that I think the tattoos are particularly unbalanced either but just to get to the heart of the “why” question; (Why the monks should get this flexibility when other characters don’t?) I think it’s an aesthetic and lore choice as much as a game design choice. Tattooed monks are meant to be these mysterious warriors that are an unknown quantity. The tattoos do that.

Personally my reading of the rules (including after reading them following your posts) is the designers were fairly relaxed about a Player Character just spamming a particular tattoo.

Providing a duration sets a baseline default position that the tattoos last for a short amount of time before they must be consciously reactivated. However, I disagree with the premise that the duration restriction does literally nothing because of the Free Action. It may be a free action but it still must be consciously reactivated.

If the monk is asleep, unconscious, heavily inebriated or his opponent has really good timing (or luck) then the tattoo may not be activated. Arguably in the correct circumstances conditions such as Dazed or even Fatigued may at GMs discretion also prevent activation.

Secondly the tattoo must be exposed, to be activated, by which I take that to mean fully exposed to be activated. Furthermore, these tattoos are pretty massive as shown in the art. The consequence of this is that the monk can either walk around half naked (or at least very obviously as a tattoed monk) with exposed tattoos or they can try and tone down who they are and dress more conservatively.

In the case of the Crane tattoo in particular I believe (and have played it as such) that the monk may activate the tattoo, put on appropriate clothing and then get the benefit of the tattoo for an hour. If they walk into a social situation with their tattoo exposed and probably inappropriately dressed that probably cancels out the 1K0 anyway. (Even worse if they decide to keep stripping off to reactivate it).

That is the social consequences, exposing your tattoo can also have issues depending on environmental conditions such as hiking in snowy mountains and so forth.

To be clear this is not a “solution” to the tattoo problem, this is just roleplaying the Dragon Monk and NPC reactions to it. And that’s a similar case with the other points about the tattoos being balanced by the monk’s being feared and respected but also not being ‘proper’ samurai. Also, Dragon Monks are really really obvious. I am currently playing a city-based game involving criminal gangs and various corrupt officials. It is becoming an issue for the players that the bad guys basically know where they are at all times because they are “The ones with the weird tattooed Dragon monk who breathes fire…”

To me if these character in-game behaviours aren’t considered or roleplayed or if Dragon monks are just seen as a regular samurai, or their tattos are these discreet icons on the wrist, then yes, the tattoos might be too powerful but that’s just your ‘Rokugan May Vary’ territory unique to your game.

Another major area that I think you are discounting is the fact that there has never been a errata or FAQ clarifying this. The Dragon monks are pretty popular and central character, it’s not like a minor clan in a random supplement that perhaps has literally never been played. I think if it was an oversight, it would have been picked up by now.

I think the Kri Kren Tattoo is lazy design and probably the strongest argument that there should be a limit to the number of uses but apart from that for me it’s just not a massive issue.
 
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Thank you for the reply, but I remain thoroughly unconvinced. Your tricks for balancing the abuses are interesting and amusing, but also convoluted and obscure when a simple line-insertion from 3rd edition fixes everything. If the crane tattoo's bizarrely complex, meaningless timer text is meant to be balanced out by a very precise application of setting expectations that a new GM might overlook, shouldn't it have been spelled out? Plus that means it has no restrictions in social situations outside of strict courts, and there are plenty of those.

Then you say, "It may be a free action but it still must be consciously reactivated. If the monk is asleep, unconscious, heavily inebriated or his opponent has really good timing (or luck) then the tattoo may not be activated. Arguably in the correct circumstances conditions such as Dazed or even Fatigued may at GMs discretion also prevent activation."

Why do this with a strange timer when it would be easier to say certain conditions shut off the tattoos?

Tellingly you had no answer for the ki-rin (no one on any forum has so far), calling it "lazy design" (it's much worse than that), but still you are making all this effort to basically say "the designers did nothing wrong". My theory is much more charitable on the designers if that's your concern. One missing line vs several weirdly written/balanced tattoos.

There are plenty of 'spammable' tattoo combinations you can have at level 1 that make other schools laughable. Here's one example, the Shosuro Infiltrator School, rank 1. Remember, this is THE ninja school that most players who want that archetype will be able to access.

The first lesson of an infiltrator is to mask all signs of one’s true nature. You lose no Honor for use of Low Skills or Ninjutsu Weapons in the service of the Scorpion Clan (subject to GM approval). You gain a bonus of +2k0 to the total of all Stealth Skill Rolls.

Meanwhile, your spammable tattoo monk can do this at the same rank.

Scorpion: The scorpion is silent and deadly. While this tattoo is active, you roll additional dice on any Stealth Skill Roll equal to your School Rank. Also, during this time your unarmed attacks automatically Daze your opponent if any dice explode on your damage roll.

PLUS

Spider: The spider is quick and dexterous, escaping predators with its speed and agility. While this tattoo is active, you may move across vertical and inverted surfaces (such as sheer walls or ceilings) while making Move Actions. You move at half your normal rate when doing so.

Surely you can see the problem? Yes they can't be active at the same time and you might rule that the spider effect runs out before you can re-spam it with a free action (6-12 seconds of spider climb used judiciously will still get you past most walls), but that still a much better ninja than the ninja. Or maybe the spider is too subtle for you, so how about spamming this.

Hawk: You may borrow the essence of the hawk, and cover great distances with ease. As a Complex Action, you may leap a distance equal to your Water Ring x 25’.

Damn, that's 50 feet for even an average character! Whenever you want! Ninja's getting real envious right now.

Your best weapon is the correct observation that years of play never resulted in an errata. My best guest for that? Everyone wanted and loved their overpowered tattoo monks and either never read very carefully or chose to never bring it up.
 
Thank you for the reply, but I remain thoroughly unconvinced. Your tricks for balancing the abuses are interesting and amusing, but also convoluted and obscure when a simple line-insertion from 3rd edition fixes everything. If the crane tattoo's bizarrely complex, meaningless timer text is meant to be balanced out by a very precise application of setting expectations that a new GM might overlook, shouldn't it have been spelled out? Plus that means it has no restrictions in social situations outside of strict courts, and there are plenty of those.

Then you say, "It may be a free action but it still must be consciously reactivated. If the monk is asleep, unconscious, heavily inebriated or his opponent has really good timing (or luck) then the tattoo may not be activated. Arguably in the correct circumstances conditions such as Dazed or even Fatigued may at GMs discretion also prevent activation."

Why do this with a strange timer when it would be easier to say certain conditions shut off the tattoos?

Tellingly you had no answer for the ki-rin (no one on any forum has so far), calling it "lazy design" (it's much worse than that), but still you are making all this effort to basically say "the designers did nothing wrong". My theory is much more charitable on the designers if that's your concern. One missing line vs several weirdly written/balanced tattoos.

There are plenty of 'spammable' tattoo combinations you can have at level 1 that make other schools laughable. Here's one example, the Shosuro Infiltrator School, rank 1. Remember, this is THE ninja school that most players who want that archetype will be able to access.



Meanwhile, your spammable tattoo monk can do this at the same rank.



Surely you can see the problem? Yes they can't be active at the same time and you might rule that the spider effect runs out before you can re-spam it with a free action (6-12 seconds of spider climb used judiciously will still get you past most walls), but that still a much better ninja than the ninja. Or maybe the spider is too subtle for you, so how about spamming this.



Damn, that's 50 feet for even an average character! Whenever you want! Ninja's getting real envious right now.

Your best weapon is the correct observation that years of play never resulted in an errata. My best guest for that? Everyone wanted and loved their overpowered tattoo monks and either never read very carefully or chose to never bring it up.
I'm not a L5R player, but you make a compelling argument in my book.

Also, are you running this game or not? If you are, then in your game it works however the fuck you want it to. Even if that's not how it's meant to work, it works like that now:thumbsup:!

And yes, you should have clarified, but you didn't, because you thought it was obvious. Nobody's perfect, alas, and neither are you - so you didn't predict that it there shall be a disagreement. Shame on you, return your prophecy and telepathy diplomas on the bouncer on the way out...:shade:

Ultimately, your player can accept this, or vote with his feet. Because if you vote with your feet instead, nobody else gets to play.

There, it's settled, now someone fetch me a beer so I could stop channeling the Old Geezer:grin:!
 
Also, are you running this game or not? If you are, then in your game it works however the fuck you want it to.

It's going forward. The player decided to make a totally different character (Mirumoto Bushi) and seems fully engaged. Odd, but he's never seemed the type to play 'gotcha!' so I'll take it.
 
Somehow I knew it would be the Tattooed Monks causing grief!

As much as those Dragon Bastards get on my nerves as a GM, :wink:, I think overall B is correct.

Some of it comes down to the fact that Tattooed Monks should not be treated like regular samurai. Their bonus to social skills via Crane Tattoo are in the context of a monk using social skills. Social skills are not mind control and a samurai, particularly a dishonourable or politically minded one can safetly (but of course politely) ignore what a monk says regardless of what the dice says. Equally a samurai can ignore a challenge from an impertinent monk without loss of face.

If on the other hand the PC insists they are a samurai, that's fine but the tattoos need to be exposed to be used so walking into a party bare chested as a samurai would incur the appropriate penalties etc. And of course in a duel if the combatants can't decide on weapon katana is used. Brawling with fists during an Iaijutsu duel is highly dishonourable and seppuku worthy.

These are just some illustrative examples off the top of my head

The point is ise zumi monks are feared and respected but are also monks. The tattoos and flexibility they provide are a way of balancing that in my opinion.

(BTW I have had to deal with Tattooed Monks in my campaign, they add great flavour but can be a pain in the arse as a GM).
TBF in universe there are absolutely Dragon Clan monks who are ALSO Samurai. Comes with being the "Introspective monk clan".

BUT, if they are both they have more social restrictions that they have to follow as well.
 
Thank you for the reply, but I remain thoroughly unconvinced. Your tricks for balancing the abuses are interesting and amusing...

Tellingly you had no answer for the ki-rin (no one on any forum has so far)....

The original question was what was the authors intent?

I think the authors intent was what is written. The fact there hasn't been an errata between publishing and 5th edition essentially proves this.

The explaination you give for this is probably correct. People thought Tattoo monks were fun to play and GM rather than marginal rollplay issues and so why change them?

As for whether they are balanced with every other samurai type I dont know. It's not really how I approach GMing or playing tbh.

But the great thing about GMing is you can put in whatever you want. If you want limited tattoo duration or uses just lay down the law. If you're looking for author intent that agrees with you or GM consensus I think that's a bit of a stretch.
 
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If you're looking for author intent that agrees with you or GM consensus I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Well the original purpose of the post was to see if anyone could put me in touch with one of the authors so the argument would be moot. You'd think it would be easier to reach RPG book authors these days, but oh well.
 
Why can't you meet halfway and compromise?

Find a solution that both are happy with, and the other players, and continue?
 
Why can't you meet halfway and compromise?

Find a solution that both are happy with, and the other players, and continue?
What's the middle ground between "there is a limit to activating those features" vs "there isn't one":grin:?
 
What's the middle ground between "there is a limit to activating those features" vs "there isn't one":grin:?

There is a limit that prevents "abuse" but which lets the player, in practice, use it as much as they want.
 

1 tattoo at a time, free action, so you can only do one activate tattoo a round
there are examples with additional restrictions
agrees
asks the same question, so it's been a known thing for at least 6 years.

your position assumes intent, and not just that the rules are broke stuff :smile:

*shrug* feels like it's just badly designed, or there is something else outside of explicitly tattoos that is being missed. or they are supposed to be powerful
 
What's the middle ground between "there is a limit to activating those features" vs "there isn't one":grin:?
X number of uses a day, but make it high enough that they won't moan - but also not that regular so as to hack off other players.
Or make it cost points to use...not sure if other powers require a cost for use though?
Been so long since I looked at L5R mechanics....
 
X number of uses a day, but make it high enough that they won't moan - but also not that regular so as to hack off other players.
Or make it cost points to use...not sure if other powers require a cost for use though?
Been so long since I looked at L5R mechanics....
That's still "there are limits", so no, it's not a compromise:thumbsup:.
 
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