[Hero System/Champions] Champions Now?

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I've always thought it was the presentation of the rules that is the biggest hurdle to new players getting into Champions/Hero rather than the rules themselves. They are poorly explained so as to make them seem overly complicated when they really aren't any more complicated than D&D, probably actually less complicated If I run a game for players who have not read the rules and just tell them what to roll and what some game term means at the table, I have no problem. As far as I'm concerned there's no reason to change the basic mechanics--there are other games to use if you don't like Champions' underlying mechanics--but loads of reasons to get someone to write and edit the rules to make them clear and not so front-loaded with jargon. Anyway, it's a moot point as I'm not buying any more of their product since I have enough Hero books on my shelf to last the rest of my gaming days.
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Maybe the critique of Champions/Hero System's failings should be given its own thread?
 
Can you explain the roll over under issues Toadmaster. As Chaosium it was not so much a stat issue for me so much that bad rolls in finding clues could grind a game session to a halt. As well if your going to make the new edition keeping it 90-95% unchanged is not the way to get many sales as their is no need to buy the newer book if the previous edition will do just fine,

There are some who feel very strongly that roll over or roll under are much more intuitive. Some feel that games which combine both roll low and roll high such as HERO does where you want to roll low (roll under your skill) for success, but then want to roll high for damage / degree of success is confusing. Runequest / BRP is another one that often comes up as an offender.

Another common example is Armor Class in AD&D where the lower the number the better, although in that case you want to roll high for both success and damage.

It is so much of a non-issue to me that I never even gave it any thought before I saw people on forums going to war over it. There are some who feel very strongly that one or the other is better and combining them is the worst.
 
It is so much of a non-issue to me that I never even gave it any thought before I saw people on forums going to war over it. There are some who feel very strongly that one or the other is better and combining them is the worst.

Not to get into something largely off topic, but people like vanilla,some chocolate, others like strawberry. None of them are is 'objectively' better flavor. Its a matter of preference. If more people like vanilla, great. I don't think they should stop making Strawberry or Banana splits.
 
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There are some who feel very strongly that roll over or roll under are much more intuitive.

It's been scientifically proven that addition is easier for the human brain than subtraction. Doesn't mean you can't train to prefer one or the other, but adding simply is easier. And like all things, it's a matter of degrees, the gap between some people might be insignificant, for others insurmountable, most somewhere in between.

Until people reminded me, I completely forgot that the HERO system is roll under, simply because one of my first house rules was to make it roll over. And believe me, that took a LOT of work. Bonuses had to be reworked, numbers recalculated...
 
Great! its good to run into someone that enjoys the character creation possibilities, but yeah, you will run into issues with people determined to min/max. Its really part of the fun for some folks and some are great players to be fair, but it can be a PIA sometimes. But I imagine its not a unique issue for Champions.
I had some friends who played a lot of Champions. One of the legendary characters they came up with was Brain on a Stick, a character min-maxed for psionic powers that had no body apart from a stand. Another was Masochist Man, who got all his power from taking damage and had to be punched into combat.
 
Anything more come out about this?
Current status is just about done minus art I believe. The artist ran into issues but had sketches already. Ron thought just the sketches were a good art for a built your own system kind of game. I can see the logic there but backers didn't approve. I believe he's looking for new artist.
 
It takes my friends WEEKS to make a character because they cannot resist shaving those points down ("the power doesn't work in the mornings, so that gives me 10 more points!"). It is definitely the system to min/max with.

I have found memories of playing Champions, just not character generation. :smile:
Exactly how I feel about Champions and Mutants and Masterminds. DC Heroes not so, strangely enough. Maybe it's because the first two games have infinite ways to tweak and min/max but DC Heroes just says "the power does this. It costs this much." and anything you apply after that just makes it slightly cheaper or more expensive rather than changing how it works (costs No End, Armour Piercing etc).
 
Exactly how I feel about Champions and Mutants and Masterminds. DC Heroes not so, strangely enough. Maybe it's because the first two games have infinite ways to tweak and min/max but DC Heroes just says "the power does this. It costs this much." and anything you apply after that just makes it slightly cheaper or more expensive rather than changing how it works (costs No End, Armour Piercing etc).
I used to run into that min/maxing a bit but constant crushing of their dreams eventually gets the message through that it's not going to be tolerated.
 
This is interesting, because back when Champions Complete came out the buzz on the forum I was posting at was exactly opposite: that the core 6e books were indecipherable and Champions Complete was the only thing Hero had done since Sidekick that was accessible to and understandable by newbies.

That was my thought. Derek Hiemforth did a really good job of taking a smaller book and getting the same amount of info out of it with text that was easier to read than Steve's. It probably helped that there weren't all those extra Powers examples filling the margins.

This is the kind of thing that I'm sure an existing Hero fan will immediately understand (and I do understand enough to see the utility), but for a newbie, it's saying "Each player gets six cards, except the player on the dealer's right, who gets seven. Two jacks are a half-fizzbin. A third jack is a sralk and results in a disqualification, so you want a king and a deuce, except at night, when you want a queen and a four."

"Now you're ready to move on to Triple Cranko."
 
The biggest problem I run into trying to introduce new players to the HERO system, is many want to push the do anything aspect. Making an Elf archer for a fantasy game isn't good enough, no they want a 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Orc Fighter/Mage/Thief with daddy issues, who BTW also happens to be the heir to the throne.

Player: Ok, now help me make that.
GM: How about we start with something simple, maybe a nice wizard.
Player: No you said this game can do anything, show me.
GM: :weep:

Simple. Look up Fantasy HERO (the supplemental version, or even Surbrook's Fantasy Hero Complete), take the Elf package. Then add the parts of the Orc package that don't duplicate. Then give him the skills for a Light Fighter/Archer or Ranger, add Rogue Package. "Daddy Issues" is a Psychological Complication that's worth points. The hard part is the magic, but that's because every Fantasy setting tends to have different "rules of magic." But then, that's why HERO is so useful. It doesn't do "Vancian Gygax" D&D magic perfectly, but it's a lot better at simulating that than D&D is at simulating Stormbringer/Elric/Call of Cthulhu type magic.


Exactly my issue, it seems to me it claims to make things easier, but all I see is exceptions.

I had a similar response to the decoupling of figured stats. That was done supposedly to make things easier, but I see it strictly as a power gamer move. It only makes things easier if you want to min/max the "figured" stats.
When they were truly figured stats, there was no reason for a player to futz around with them. They were figured from their primary stats and by default gave you secondary characteristics appropriate to your primary stats. A character with high STR, CON and Body would have pretty good Stun, REC and End. There wasn't much need to spend points on the figured stats unless you wanted something atypical. A wizard with poor physical stats might want to buy up End for spell casting purposes.
It also provided feed back, the wizard player might look at the need to buy up END to be effective and decide you know what maybe he isn't frail and sickly, weak (low STR) sure, but maybe wizarding requires a body in good health, with a lot of resilience (high CON), thank you for pointing that out figured stats.

Decoupling the figured stats requires an even better understanding of the rules. It doesn't make the game easier it just removes a safety net.

And yes, that's a great way to describe the problem with 6E "simplifying" the Characteristic math. All that stuff that was built in and assumed now has to be deliberately factored. As I keep saying, the problem was that Hero 6 did not sufficiently improve on Hero 5 for us grognards to convert, while it also wasn't simple or useful enough to convert people who never tried Hero or had a phobia to it.

JG
 
As I keep saying, the problem was that Hero 6 did not sufficiently improve on Hero 5 for us grognards to convert, while it also wasn't simple or useful enough to convert people who never tried Hero or had a phobia to it.

JG

Agreed and seconded. I don't particularly dislike the HS except that 6E did nothing to make it easier to run. Nor try to appeal to anyone beyond the player segment that wanted nothing to change. While re-releasing all the same material over again converted to 6E. The ex-HS player who switched over to Savage Worlds because the previous version was too complex and crunchy was sure as hell not coming back with 6E.
 
Well, for me Hero 6e came at a particularly bad time. I was a bit consumed with the D&D 4e release schedule, but I was also considering quitting RPGs altogether. Sometime around there was my big purge where I unceremoniously dumped about half of my considerable library.

Plus, I had no idea Hero 6e had been released until it was already out of print and hard to get.
 
As I keep saying, the problem was that Hero 6 did not sufficiently improve on Hero 5 for us grognards to convert, while it also wasn't simple or useful enough to convert people who never tried Hero or had a phobia to it.

As an old hero grognard I concur with this. There are two problems afflicting HERO (and GURPS for that matter). One is using the core toolkit as your primary form of presentation. Second when it is narrowed it down to something specific, it is done in a way that misses the point of what the rest of the hobby is doing like Fantasy Hero Complete (or Dungeon Fantasy RPG).

For instance if I had a crack at it, what I do is write a decent clone of D&D. With lists of character types, spells, monsters, and magic items. Mechanically I would not duplicate D&D but still keep everything bog standard HERO. I would just be emulating D&D structurally. Mechanically I would use packages incessantly and focus on making a easy to understand arrangement of packages all built with bog standard Hero System mechanics.

Write up a small but interesting setting, along with a nice adventure that relatable to D&D players. Then finally at the end in an appendix tersely explain the core system, where to find the toolkit references (the current 2 core books), and how the packages of this books break down.

The point is to get them used to the core Hero System mechanics (combat, doing stuff, etc) and feed the novice a small dose of a point based system while remaining compatible with the larger system.

The thing designers often forget with point based systems is that different items can be grouped together into larger chunks (templates, lenses, packages, etc) that form an element of a coherent whole.

But you have to develop a coherent whole and too often designers have a disdain for D&D and its trope so what is produced an uninteresting tangent. You don't have to emulate D&D but you do need to provide what it has. An understandable magic system, a list of monsters comprehensive to keep a campaign going, a list of magic items to use for treasures, and the knowledge of how to create the same type of characters they like to play in D&D.

Then hit them with the full force of the system in the rest of the line.
 
Actually, Robert, they forget that some players picking up their book are new, or haven't master the intricacies of the system yet.
 
Actually, Robert, they forget that some players picking up their book are new, or haven't master the intricacies of the system yet.
Hero Games thought they addressed it by doing the two X Complete books. It not a case of forgetting it is a case of they don't know how.

It been an ongoing issue with various generic RPGs not specific to Hero System itself. A shared blindspot even though different designers and publishers are involved.
 
Hero Games thought they addressed it by doing the two X Complete books. It not a case of forgetting it is a case of they don't know how.

It been an ongoing issue with various generic RPGs not specific to Hero System itself. A shared blindspot even though different designers and publishers are involved.

This is another reason I think M&M has surpassed Hero. Prebuilt Archetypes and example villains in the main book. Books of prebuilt powers, books of prebuilt supervillains and superheroes. It's easy to get started without having to immediately engage the minutia of the point buy itself.
 
Simple. Look up Fantasy HERO (the supplemental version, or even Surbrook's Fantasy Hero Complete), take the Elf package. Then add the parts of the Orc package that don't duplicate. Then give him the skills for a Light Fighter/Archer or Ranger, add Rogue Package. "Daddy Issues" is a Psychological Complication that's worth points. The hard part is the magic, but that's because every Fantasy setting tends to have different "rules of magic." But then, that's why HERO is so useful. It doesn't do "Vancian Gygax" D&D magic perfectly, but it's a lot better at simulating that than D&D is at simulating Stormbringer/Elric/Call of Cthulhu type magic.


Sure it can be done, and for an experienced player not really an issue. The problem is you get players who want to push the "it can do anything" aspect but then when you show them how to do their wackadoodle concept they complain that the game is too complicated. It is complicated because they made it complicated. If they had stuck with something easier to start with. something they might have had in their other games, not so complicated.

Hero Games thought they addressed it by doing the two X Complete books. It not a case of forgetting it is a case of they don't know how.

It been an ongoing issue with various generic RPGs not specific to Hero System itself. A shared blindspot even though different designers and publishers are involved.

Agree, HERO is far from the only one with this issue, it is a problem for most generic rule sets. It is like when they made the move to a covers everything generic core book they signed a pact that they would never again publish a tight genre / setting book. The Complete books are still setting generic which still leaves them extremely broad.

I look at it like Legos, imagine if Lego only offered huge generic sets instead of their generic sets and the sets to build something specific like Harry Potter's X-wing. Generic Legos are cool but the specific sets seem to bring in a lot of money for Lego.

The thing that really baffles me is how so many seem to feel it is us or them. A good narrow focus game using the system is likely to appeal to both current and new players.

This is another reason I think M&M has surpassed Hero. Prebuilt Archetypes and example villains in the main book. Books of prebuilt powers, books of prebuilt supervillains and superheroes. It's easy to get started without having to immediately engage the minutia of the point buy itself.

HERO has tons of books with pre-built stuff, always has, and the 5th ed era saw the number increase dramatically..
 
HERO has tons of books with pre-built stuff, always has, and the 5th ed era saw the number increase dramatically..

And absolutely none of it was in the core book. I was a huge fan of 5e Hero when it came out. I think I still have my dented cover copy of revised (A player said something so stupid I facedesked into the book, I wish I could still remember what was so stupid but having slammed my head into the monstrosity that was 5e revised it seems to have left my brain). I had a bunch of the books for it.

But it never had a plan for showing new players how it was supposed to work in the actual first book you would buy.
 
Sure it can be done, and for an experienced player not really an issue. The problem is you get players who want to push the "it can do anything" aspect but then when you show them how to do their wackadoodle concept they complain that the game is too complicated. It is complicated because they made it complicated. If they had stuck with something easier to start with. something they might have had in their other games, not so complicated.

It's like I say with Mekton.

Yes, you CAN build a 3432.7 CP mech with tons of multipliers, space efficiency on every component down to the tenth, and tons of special features. That might take you a few days and a spreadsheet.

But most of the time you're just building a simple humanoid bipedal thing with a flight system, a couple of guns, and a missile rack. That will probably take you about 30 minutes and a piece of scrap paper, assuming you don't know what you're doing.

Every time I work on Hero characters, I find myself falling into the trap of looking for one more special feature/modifier to apply to match the concept, forgetting I don't need that kind of thing right away.

I think there's also a culture thing. Personally, for point build stuff I'm always game to let players tweak or respec to get what they want. But there are people out there who insist that once play starts, everything is locked in. So that contributes to analysis paralysis.
 
And absolutely none of it was in the core book. I was a huge fan of 5e Hero when it came out. I think I still have my dented cover copy of revised (A player said something so stupid I facedesked into the book, I wish I could still remember what was so stupid but having slammed my head into the monstrosity that was 5e revised it seems to have left my brain). I had a bunch of the books for it.

But it never had a plan for showing new players how it was supposed to work in the actual first book you would buy.

Interesting, having played Hero from 1st ed, that wasn't something I needed / noticed. If they failed to include example characters in the hundreds of additional pages of explanations then yes, that is a major omission.

I liked the idea GURPS had of including a solo adventure with the 1E core rules. I don't recall if that carried over into the unboxed versions or just became a stand alone product.
 
Interesting, having played Hero from 1st ed, that wasn't something I needed / noticed. If they failed to include example characters in the hundreds of additional pages of explanations then yes, that is a major omission.

I liked the idea GURPS had of including a solo adventure with the 1E core rules. I don't recall if that carried over into the unboxed versions or just became a stand alone product.
1e was a smaller collection of powers, advantages, modifiers etc. It included examples and sample heroes and Villains/heroes with point costs.

I think that smaller package with incremental additions was a great way to introduce people to the game. It's not entirely unlike the D&D 5e starter box not including chargen.

That's actually an interesting idea. Make a starter set with pregens and a good city to explore in. If people enjoy the game then they can delve into the system mastery that is chargen.
 
1e was a smaller collection of powers, advantages, modifiers etc. It included examples and sample heroes and Villains/heroes with point costs.

I think that smaller package with incremental additions was a great way to introduce people to the game. It's not entirely unlike the D&D 5e starter box not including chargen.

That's actually an interesting idea. Make a starter set with pregens and a good city to explore in. If people enjoy the game then they can delve into the system mastery that is chargen.

I think this is a huge part of why so much of the HERO fan base has been around from earlier editions. Those early games were fairly small, and rather focused making them much easier to absorb. Many didn't even inlude the power construction system, a GM just went back to Champions if they needed to build something with powers.

Champions 2E (super heroes, 68 pages) + Champions II (Champions rules supplement, 84 pages) + Champions III (Champions rules supplement, 84 pages) (Total of 236 pages in 3 books).
Espionage (spies / action ,64 pages)
Champions 3E (revision of 2E, CII and CIII, 146 pages)
Justice Inc (pulp action, 96 pages)
Fantasy Hero 3E (fantasy,160 pages)
Danger International (spies, action 174 pages)

All complete games in less than 200 pages and they kept the scope relatively narrow. Even the 4E Hero core rules which expanded Hero into a full blown generic game system comes in at only 220 pages.

Then you get 5E at 375 pages and 5E revised at 592 pages, and then 6E with 2 volumes and how many additional pages?

Each expansion has perhaps not made the game more complex, but it has made it a lot harder to grasp because there is so much to absorb.
 
Champions Now is finalized and sent to backers.

Reading through it now. Not blown away yet.
 
Yeah. It's been a slog to get through his prose and just get to the rules. I just got 68 pages in and I'm finally getting to a semi concise recap of the rules for building a character
 
Yeah. It's been a slog to get through his prose and just get to the rules. I just got 68 pages in and I'm finally getting to a semi concise recap of the rules for building a character
That's a sincere pity, I wanted to get this, but if it's unpleasant to read, I'm going to have to save the pennies for something else.
 
That's a sincere pity, I wanted to get this, but if it's unpleasant to read, I'm going to have to save the pennies for something else.
He has a very conversational style and he's in my opinion trying to educate you too much about corporate history of both the comic Industry and superhero RPG industry. His conversational style is not for me. If all this information was in the back of the book it might not be an issue for me. But having random crap about all this right in front is an obstacle for me. Once you get past it to the concise rules starting on page 68ish it looks much more like 1-3rd edition Champions.
 
It's been a slog to get through his prose and just get to the rules
Sadly, that has been my experience of Ron Edwards' games in the past. I had a friend who was an enormous fan of Sorcerer, almost obsessively so, and even he admitted that it took a huge amount of additional reading and experimentation to reach a point where he felt he understood what Edwards was saying.

Lots of fascinating ideas, but sadly very poor at writing clear, concise rules.
 
Sadly, that has been my experience of Ron Edwards' games in the past. I had a friend who was an enormous fan of Sorcerer, almost obsessively so, and even he admitted that it took a huge amount of additional reading and experimentation to reach a point where he felt he understood what Edwards was saying.

Lots of fascinating ideas, but sadly very poor at writing clear, concise rules.
It's as rambling and disordered as the 1st edition DMG without as much useful content in my opinion.
 
Which is kind pf sad and probably kills any chance of buying it for myself most likely.


Given we are in 2020 that kind of style of writing may have worked in the 1980s not so ,uch know imo. Or it ignores the target audience in favor a much smaller demographic which is hughe preventable mistake.

When one is competing with M&M it just I don't know why it would be written that way. More importantly why write it that way. Unless like 1E D&D their is a huge fanbase who wants 3E style Champions writing
 
Yeah. It's been a slog to get through his prose and just get to the rules. I just got 68 pages in and I'm finally getting to a semi concise recap of the rules for building a character

So 68 pages in and just getting to the end of Chargen? The whole of Champions 2E was 68 pages, I don't understand why so many game designers these days follow the Dickens school of game writing.


This seems very appropriate to modern game writing

get to it.jpg

Fron Effin' Birds A Field Guide to Identification - The Peevish Ringneck

BTW my favorite new book. :smile:
 
So 68 pages in and just getting to the end of Chargen? The whole of Champions 2E was 68 pages, I don't understand why so many game designers these days follow the Dickens school of game writing.
I object. Charles Dickens was entertaining and often hilarious or poignant. He also wrote far better RPGs.

(Actually this verbosity without meaning seems to have infected almost all writing I encounter nowadays: RPGs, wannabe "literary fiction," genre fiction, technical manuals, even comic books can't tell a story in a single issue anymore.)
 
So 68 pages in and just getting to the end of Chargen? The whole of Champions 2E was 68 pages, I don't understand why so many game designers these days follow the Dickens school of game writing.


This seems very appropriate to modern game writing

View attachment 15807

Fron Effin' Birds A Field Guide to Identification - The Peevish Ringneck

BTW my favorite new book. :smile:
No no.68 pages in and just getting started on the actual combined numerical explanation of chargen. Up until now it's a dribble of info here on disadvantages, stats, powers, skills but not in a cohesive manner. If he had instead presented a character sheet and said let's go through each section one by one his prose might be more useful.

First 15 pages. History of comics, supers RPGs and Hero games.
The we have the basics tackled in this order: disadvantages (situations), characteristics,skills,powers,speed chart, fighting,oddballs, reference (12 pages)
Then GM setting, campaign advice (17pages)

Technically hero making starts at page 51. But it's got a lot of intro. really it starts on page57.
This lasts to page 106 and covers the details of all powers skills etc.
 
I just picked up the PDF of Champions Now. I have never heard of Ron Edwards before. I bought it simply because I played Champions (2nd, 3rd and 4th edition) back in the day and have looked at the latest (6th) with little interest. I figured I’d check this new game that the author claims to be his tweaked version of 3rd, as I prefer older Champions editions.

I’ve just started reading and indeed the author is wordy and somewhat difficult to read, although probably no more so than Gygax. Gygax was probably more entertaining, although that might be nostalgia talking.

There is definitely a game in here, it just takes some effort to get to it. Specific differences to 3rd edition Champions will probably become apparent the more I read.

I will point out though that while the introduction is indeed 50ish pages long and covers comics and superhero game history among other things, the book is actually digest or A5 in size and the text isn’t particularly dense. As I recall, 2nd and 3rd edition Champions were normal 8.5x11 sized with two column text in a small font. While those books had much smaller page counts, the text was dense. I think the first 50 pages of the Champions Now book would compress down into 20-25 pages in a normal sized book or one with a small font.

I’m gonna continue checking this out. I’ll see if I can parse the actual game mechanics from the author’s wordiness.
 
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