Hero to Hero, not Zero to Hero

[Klibbix!]

So I have the opportunity to run a few games for some of my friends. I've run games for these particular friends before, Labyrinth Lord specifically, and while we enjoyed the absolute lethality of B/X dungeon-crawling I can tell the constant death-rate and whiff factor got to them a bit. I'd like to run a fantasy game for them again, but one in which beginning characters are competent and powerful right off the bat. Not earth-shaking, Godbound-style PCs, but ones that could justifiably be called Heroes as soon as they're created.

I fully admit that the lethality of our previous games could be toned down, or we could just play a D&D-related game and start at higher levels, but I'd like to try something new out.

My criteria as I see it:
- competent heroes off the bat
- rules-lite if possible
- fantasy
- maybe classless and level-less

Any suggestions?

 

[David Johansen]

Fantasy Hero or Dungeon Fantasy would work pretty well. Personally, Rolemaster Standard System does a good job of it. That's one of the big debates in the fan community, first level characters can get really good at one or two things right off the bat, some people feel it undermines the whole point of a level based system. Palladium's fantasy system does pretty well at first level. Try and get the first edition if at all possible.

My system, The Arcane Confabulation is easy to set up for mid level play as the templates are all given in points per level so you'd just multiply by five to get a fifth level character.

 

[Stan]

Barbarians of Lemuria, maybe. I think it starts off a bit stronger and it's as simple as B/X. No classes. It has broad skills called careers - suppose you had been a sailor for a long time, then you could do sailor related stuff.

An earlier version of it is available for free.

 

[Klibbix!]

Fantasy Hero or Dungeon Fantasy would work pretty well. Personally, Rolemaster Standard System does a good job of it. That's one of the big debates in the fan community, first level characters can get really good at one or two things right off the bat, some people feel it undermines the whole point of a level based system. Palladium's fantasy system does pretty well at first level. Try and get the first edition if at all possible.

My system, The Arcane Confabulation is easy to set up for mid level play as the templates are all given in points per level so you'd just multiply by five to get a fifth level character.

Palladium is not one I've tried out, I may look into that along with your other suggestions! Thank you.

 

[Klibbix!]

Barbarians of Lemuria, maybe. I think it starts off a bit stronger and it's as simple as B/X. No classes. It has broad skills called careers - suppose you had been a sailor for a long time, then you could do sailor related stuff.

An earlier version of it is available for free.

I actually own the print edition of BoL, I had forgotten about it. Great suggestion.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Savage Worlds is a good fit for this imo.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

Savage Worlds is a good fit for this imo.

It's not bad.

My criteria as I see it:
- competent heroes off the bat
- rules-lite if possible
- fantasy
- maybe classless and level-less

Any suggestions?

- Savage Worlds characters are competent, at least in their major areas of expertise, combined with the Wild die to make sure they are rarely *incompetent*.
- That's...a little subjective. Some people find it overly complicated. Some find it remarkably simple. I'd call it Rules Medium, personally.
- Well, it's open genre...
- No Classes (unless you specifically use Savage Pathfinder) and while it has ranks, they are a little more open and free flowing than D&D classes, but less open than a pure point buy.

Savage Worlds character do get better/stronger/etc as they advance, but in a lot of ways they grow "out" and not "up". Power curve isn't flat, but it's far less steep than the typical D&D 1-20 scale.

 

[Vargold]

Everway? PCs and NPCs have four element scores in place of attributes: Air (intellect, verbal facility), Fire (agility, might), Earth (toughness, resilience), and Water (sensitivity, perception). These scores range from 1 (deficient) to 10 (godlike). An ordinary human is built from 12 points (average scores of 3 in each element), while a starting hero is built from 20 points (and could thus either be a human exemplar with 5s in all elements or opt for some average or above-average scores to make room for mystical powers or magic).

There's a free preview of the Silver Anniversary Edition up at DTRPG, and there's still time to get in on pre-orders.

 

[Silverlion]

High Valor is pretty much highly suitable for this, characters are assumed heroic by default with room to grow. Cheap PDF these days (but not color alas.) or Print Edition

I hope when I do a 2E (someday far away) I can afford watercolor style art.

 

[AsenRG]

So I have the opportunity to run a few games for some of my friends. I've run games for these particular friends before, Labyrinth Lord specifically, and while we enjoyed the absolute lethality of B/X dungeon-crawling I can tell the constant death-rate and whiff factor got to them a bit. I'd like to run a fantasy game for them again, but one in which beginning characters are competent and powerful right off the bat. Not earth-shaking, Godbound-style PCs, but ones that could justifiably be called Heroes as soon as they're created.

I fully admit that the lethality of our previous games could be toned down, or we could just play a D&D-related game and start at higher levels, but I'd like to try something new out.

My criteria as I see it:
- competent heroes off the bat
- rules-lite if possible
- fantasy
- maybe classless and level-less

Any suggestions?

Any d100 variant, including Mythras (surprise!), Open Quest, Age of Shadow and many others. Granted, they don't usually offer "health buffers", but Hero points can mitigate that, IME.

 

[Numidius]

Dungeon World? And let your players take a multiclass advancement for free from the start

 

[Ladybird]

So I have the opportunity to run a few games for some of my friends. I've run games for these particular friends before, Labyrinth Lord specifically, and while we enjoyed the absolute lethality of B/X dungeon-crawling I can tell the constant death-rate and whiff factor got to them a bit. I'd like to run a fantasy game for them again, but one in which beginning characters are competent and powerful right off the bat. Not earth-shaking, Godbound-style PCs, but ones that could justifiably be called Heroes as soon as they're created.

I fully admit that the lethality of our previous games could be toned down, or we could just play a D&D-related game and start at higher levels, but I'd like to try something new out.

My criteria as I see it:
- competent heroes off the bat
- rules-lite if possible
- fantasy
- maybe classless and level-less

Any suggestions?

Advanced Fighting Fantasy. Starting PC's tend to be good in their areas of interest and good enough to have a go at things outside of it; it's very simple mechanically, fantasy is literally in the name (Albeit a rather grubby british sort of fantasy world), and it's class/level-less with spend-XP advancement. PC's have enough of a health buffer to realise "oh, this is going badly, we should retreat" without instantly getting squished.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

The Lone Wolf Adventure Game.

While there's other possibilities available in the advanced version, the standard game has you playing Kai Lords:

In the Lone Wolf Adventure Game, you adopt the role of Kai Lords – specially gifted men and women who form an order of warrior-scholar-monks capable of extraordinary feats of body and mind.

So you're very much already playing the elite of the society. (And morally, it's very heroic. In D&D terms, your characters are almost all Lawful Good with perhaps a rare 'Neutral Good rebel')

 

[Mankcam]

My criteria as I see it:
- competent heroes off the bat
- rules-lite if possible
- fantasy
- maybe classless and level-less

Any suggestions?

I would put a plug in for Barbarians of Lemuria / Everyway for meeting all the criteria you outline, however I see you mentioned elsewhere that you already have it!

In that case, perhaps 13th Age might do the trick...
It's D20 based, and came out after D&D 4E, but went down a different path than D&D 5E.
So it is a familar core system, and not much crunch on the character sheet
Characters tend to be reasonably heroic. The only potential drawback for you is that it is Class & Level based.
Reasonable review here.

For a version of BRP that leans towards rules-lite, OpenQuest is pretty good. A version of OpenQuest with a bare bones high fantasy setting is available called Age of Shadow, here's the links on DrivethruRPG: Age of Shadow and Age of Shadow Campaign Guide. I wouldn't say the characters are overly-heroic, but it's easily dialed up by simply increasing the number of Hero Points the player-characters have available, and being very liberal in how they recover them or earn new ones.

If you prefer a more 'narrative' flavour, then the PDQ system is really good and quite simple, everything is based on a bunch of Descriptors.
A sword & sorcery version of the PDQ rules is available as Jaws of the Six Serpents. For a more tongue-in-cheek version of high fantasy with PDQ, there is Questers of the Middle Realms. Both titles are great, the PDQ system is not well known, but you can do almost anything with it. Virtually no crunch.

 

[Klibbix!]

There are all great suggestions, thank you.

I am particularly interested in Everyway, High Valor and The Lone Wolf Adventure Game and am going to check these out. I also own the Big Gold Book for BRP and was thinking about using that. Not entirely sure how deadly the combat is, as I've never played it, but it does seem to make starting character's somewhat competent?

 

[Mankcam]

The core mechanics of BRP makes it pretty simple to play, but overall I wouldn't think it meets your rules-lite request, as most versions of BRP sit somewhere around medium crunch.

Combat in BRP can be pretty deadly. On a basic level, the weapons have damage ranges comparable with D&D, but characters have Hit Points akin to the lower levels of D&D, and this rarely changes. This is the easiest way to explain the threat to new BRP players who have previously played D&D. Once you add in that natural healing is a slow pace in-game (no 'Short Rests'), then it usually sinks how deadly the combat system be, even for proficient characters.

If using the optional Hit Locations rules it can all get pretty gritty.

Combat also feels quite tactile, as there are always opposing rolls in combat which captures the momentum of it all.

The BGB allows you to choose what competence level you want to start characters at, and at the back of the book it has 'build/rules packages' for particular genres, which I would recommend doing.

If you are wanting to make Heroic characters, then you can do it with BRP, but remember they can potentially be dropped like new characters, due to the randomness of combat and how deadly it can be.

I guess the system doesn't model Masters of the Universe well; it is more suited for stuff like Game of Thrones.

The other drawback for some people would be the large range of skills, some of which can be a bit finicky by today's standards. That was why I recommended OpenQuest/Age of Shadow, as the skills have been streamlined somewhat for more contemporary tastes. However this may not be an issue for you, but it did initially sound like you prefer rules-lite, so AQ/AoS may be better than the BGB for this. It's all BRP.

The BRP BGB is one of the books I would never part with, as I can run almost anything with it. I would love to see a new edition of the BGB with contemporary production and art standards

 

[saskganesh]

Start them at 4th level. Run them through a lower level dungeon so they feel awesome. Then start upping the stakes. It really does work

 

[daniel_ream]

Fate Core fulfills your criteria; the sample characters, setting and skill list used in all the examples are bog-standard adventuring fantasy. Plus free.

 

[Mankcam]

Fate Core is one of my favourites, and actually is my 'go-to' for a pulpy games, so 'Pulp Fantasy' is no different. The examples in the core book are pretty much exactly that. The only drawback for newcomers is that Aspects can sometimes take a bit to get your head around.
However once you do, it works really great. But many people do find Aspects a bit of a stumbling block, which was why I thought BoL/Everyway was a bit more approachable. However Fate Core definately is my jam.
Anything pulpy hums really well with Fate Core

 

[Mankcam]

You know, D&D 5E is probably the gorilla sitting in the corner here.
Characters are pretty competent early on, and there are dials which make character death less likely an issue than in TSR/OSR D&D.
You can always start them at Level 2 or Level 3, that way they are pretty compentent out of the gate, yet with room to advance.
An easy port for OSR players who want more heroic gameplay.

 

[Brock Savage]

Another vote for 5e here. The characters are extremely robust compared to B/X and in fact you might even want to tweak it a little to make it more challenging (1 level of exhaustion at 0 hit points is a common houserule). 1st level characters in 5e are not whiffy at all.

 

[Teyrnon]

My criteria as I see it:
- competent heroes off the bat
- rules-lite if possible
- fantasy
- maybe classless and level-less

Any suggestions?

Sword of Cepheus is the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

You know, D&D 5E is probably the gorilla sitting in the corner here.
Characters are pretty competent out of the game, and there are dials which make character death less likely an issue than in TSR/OSR D&D.
You can always start them at Level 2 or Level 3, that way they are pretty compentent out of the gate, yet with room to advance.
An easy port for OSR players who want more heroic gameplay.

Another vote for 5e here. The characters are extremely robust compared to B/X and in fact you might even want to tweak it a little to make it more challenging (1 level of exhaustion at 0 hit points is a common houserule). 1st level characters in 5e are not whiffy at all.

If you do 5e, totally skip to level 3. Levels 1 and 2 are fragile.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

If you do 5e, totally skip to level 3. Levels 1 and 2 are fragile.

To clarify: I love going from level 1...but for the "hero to hero" feel of them still feeling competent and like heroes on some level? Bypass those first two.

 

[Raleel]

For a Mythras thing, you would remove hit locations,w it’s everyone basing hit points off of size and con, ala open quest, and use rabble and underlings a lot more (who also don’t have hit locations. Then you’d remove reach, ala Mythras imperative. Then use the pulp or even the paragon rules from the companion. Truth, it would probably be easier to start with openquest and use the pulp rules.

13th age would work pretty well, though it’s rules medium I think. It definitely does hero to hero well. From the GM side it’s not crunchy at all though, but classes and levels

5e sans feats would be a good fit, except for classes and levels.

cortex prime would be a good fit. It’s relatively light, generic, no classes and levels. Progression is very optional.

 

[Klibbix!]

The core mechanics of BRP makes it pretty simple to play, but overall I wouldn't think it meets your rules-lite request, as most versions of BRP sit somewhere around medium crunch.

Combat in BRP can be pretty deadly. On a basic level, the weapons have damage ranges comparable with D&D, but characters have Hit Points akin to the lower levels of D&D, and this rarely changes. This is the easiest way to explain the threat to new BRP players who have previously played D&D. Once you add in that natural healing is a slow pace in-game (no 'Short Rests'), then it usually sinks how deadly the combat system be, even for proficient characters.

If using the optional Hit Locations rules it can all get pretty gritty.

Combat also feels quite tactile, as there are always opposing rolls in combat which captures the momentum of it all.

The BGB allows you to choose what competence level you want to start characters at, and at the back of the book it has 'build/rules packages' for particular genres, which I would recommend doing.

If you are wanting to make Heroic characters, then you can do it with BRP, but remember they can potentially be dropped like new characters, due to the randomness of combat and how deadly it can be.

I guess the system doesn't model Masters of the Universe well; it is more suited for stuff like Game of Thrones.

The other drawback for some people would be the large range of skills, some of which can be a bit finicky by today's standards. That was why I recommended OpenQuest/Age of Shadow, as the skills have been streamlined somewhat for more contemporary tastes. However this may not be an issue for you, but it did initially sound like you prefer rules-lite, so AQ/AoS may be better than the BGB for this. It's all BRP.

The BRP BGB is one of the books I would never part with, as I can run almost anything with it. I would love to see a new edition of the BGB with contemporary production and art standards

Yeah the BGB is very cool, I do want to run it at some point and I agree that it has just about everything you'd need!

 

[Klibbix!]

Fate Core fulfills your criteria; the sample characters, setting and skill list used in all the examples are bog-standard adventuring fantasy. Plus free.

You know, I've never clicked with FATE. Mind you, I've never played it but there's just something about it that trips me up. I think I'd have to have someone to run it for me before I could run it myself but it has always interested me because there's so many great settings for it.

 

[Klibbix!]

You know, D&D 5E is probably the gorilla sitting in the corner here.
Characters are pretty competent early on, and there are dials which make character death less likely an issue than in TSR/OSR D&D.
You can always start them at Level 2 or Level 3, that way they are pretty compentent out of the gate, yet with room to advance.
An easy port for OSR players who want more heroic gameplay.

Another vote for 5e here. The characters are extremely robust compared to B/X and in fact you might even want to tweak it a little to make it more challenging (1 level of exhaustion at 0 hit points is a common houserule). 1st level characters in 5e are not whiffy at all.

Yeah, I agree with everything you've said. Plus, it's popular and accessible and has the bonus of having Dungeons & Dragons on the cover. I think at the end of the day I'm going with 5e or BoL

 

[Klibbix!]

For a Mythras thing, you would remove hit locations,w it’s everyone basing hit points off of size and con, ala open quest, and use rabble and underlings a lot more (who also don’t have hit locations. Then you’d remove reach, ala Mythras imperative. Then use the pulp or even the paragon rules from the companion. Truth, it would probably be easier to start with openquest and use the pulp rules.

13th age would work pretty well, though it’s rules medium I think. It definitely does hero to hero well. From the GM side it’s not crunchy at all though, but classes and levels

5e sans feats would be a good fit, except for classes and levels.

cortex prime would be a good fit. It’s relatively light, generic, no classes and levels. Progression is very optional.

I was thinking about picking up the 13th Age core book. I like what I've read so far and the addition of more narrative stuff like the One Unique Thing and Icon relations are right up my alley.

 

[Raleel]

I was thinking about picking up the 13th Age core book. I like what I've read so far and the addition of more narrative stuff like the One Unique Thing and Icon relations are right up my alley.

The OUT is pretty solid, but the icon system is often viewed as the weakest part of the system. Might work for you though - my group had a hard time remembering it, but we also had no one who interacted with it outside of the stock usage. I ended up replacing it with a different system, which worked well enough.

it’s background system for skills I’ve stolen for other games - “ran the fastest steeplechase in Hobbiton” +3 gives you athleticism, knowledge of races, hobbit in, the inhabitants, and so on. We have a running joke in our group where one guy was “an assassin” and he would always try to make up stuff using that background… “as an assassin, I would <insert complete bullshit>”. We loved it but I did have to put some hard rails on that

 

[Klibbix!]

The OUT is pretty solid, but the icon system is often viewed as the weakest part of the system. Might work for you though - my group had a hard time remembering it, but we also had no one who interacted with it outside of the stock usage. I ended up replacing it with a different system, which worked well enough.

it’s background system for skills I’ve stolen for other games - “ran the fastest steeplechase in Hobbiton” +3 gives you athleticism, knowledge of races, hobbit in, the inhabitants, and so on. We have a running joke in our group where one guy was “an assassin” and he would always try to make up stuff using that background… “as an assassin, I would <insert complete bullshit>”. We loved it but I did have to put some hard rails on that

That's a shame as I thought the Icon stuff was going to be pretty useful in worldbuilding, but I'm glad to see the OUT works out!

 

[Raleel]

That's a shame as I thought the Icon stuff was going to be pretty useful in worldbuilding, but I'm glad to see the OUT works out!

I think it’s probably fine for the right group. Everyone rolls 3 dice, 6 gets a positive, 5 gets a mixed. If you are comfortable with that sort of improv in your game every night as the basis for stuff it should work.

 

[Klibbix!]

I think it’s probably fine for the right group. Everyone rolls 3 dice, 6 gets a positive, 5 gets a mixed. If you are comfortable with that sort of improv in your game every night as the basis for stuff it should work.

Oh I thought that might actually work for me. Is the system fairly easy to run off the cuff?

 

[Ben Adams]

Yeah, I agree with everything you've said. Plus, it's popular and accessible and has the bonus of having Dungeons & Dragons on the cover. I think at the end of the day I'm going with 5e or BoL

Why not 5e basic? 4 classes, 4 races, no issues w/feats or multi-classing. It would probably be an easier move from BX. I have always wanted to run a game like that w/just the backgrounds added for flavor (having a cleric that can suddenly pick the lock of a door to other player's surprise is fun).

I would definitely also second OpenQuest if you decide to go BRP.

 

[Vargold]

A lot depends on how strong a preference "maybe classless and level-less" is for the OP. As that's my preference, I wouldn't use D&D of any stripe to scratch that itch. (I'd use D&D if I was scratching a different itch.) But if the "maybe" is the key phrase there, that's a different ball of wax.

 

[Klibbix!]

Why not 5e basic? 4 classes, 4 races, no issues w/feats or multi-classing. It would probably be an easier move from BX. I have always wanted to run a game like that w/just the backgrounds added for flavor (having a cleric that can suddenly pick the lock of a door to other player's surprise is fun).

I would definitely also second OpenQuest if you decide to go BRP.

A lot depends on how strong a preference "maybe classless and level-less" is for the OP. As that's my preference, I wouldn't use D&D of any stripe. But if the "maybe" is the key phrase there, that's a different ball of wax.

I was a bit vague about that. I don't have a problem with levels and classes in general, I just find, rightly or wrongly that games that use them tend to have the zero to hero theme somewhat baked in. the game I'm planning to run won't be played frequently so I figured that a system that produced powerful or competent characters off the bat would give my players more enjoyment.

That being said, 5e basic is something i've been meaning to check out. I think there was another hack that brought it more in line with B/X too, I just can't remember it's name.

 

[Raleel]

Oh I thought that might actually work for me. Is the system fairly easy to run off the cuff?

It’s designed for it. I’m not super off the cuff so it was hard for me.

 

[Brock Savage]

That being said, 5e basic is something i've been meaning to check out. I think there was another hack that brought it more in line with B/X too, I just can't remember it's name.

Glad you asked. It is called Into the Unknown and it is excellent.

 

[Klibbix!]

Glad you asked. It is called Into the Unknown and it is excellent.

I am looking at it right now and trying to think of a reason not to get it....it does look right in my wheelhouse

 

[Voros]

Into the Unknown is well designed I think.