How the heck do I build and run a "Braunstein" ???

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TristramEvans

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Welcome to The Pub chirine ba kal chirine ba kal !

Great to have you here, I'll have to think up some questions for you, certain I have many
 

DeadBob

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Heh, I constantly pester Chirine with questions already! :hehe:
 

robertsconley

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Thanks! (I've been here since 2018, but there hasn't been any message traffic for me.) I work better in a Q&A format, as I have some forty-five years in the game hobby and a lot of material to work with.

I still game the way I used to back in the middle 1970's, as you can see from the photo...
How big of a role do miniatures, terrain, and miniature props play in your campaigns? Reading through some of the old accounts it seem use of miniature and associated gear was the norm rather than the exception until D&D became wildly popular in the mid-70s.

Not that I am complaining about its use given my own history. Also welcome to the Pub!
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A Riot within the City-State of the Invincible Overlord.

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chirine ba kal

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How big of a role do miniatures, terrain, and miniature props play in your campaigns? Reading through some of the old accounts it seem use of miniature and associated gear was the norm rather than the exception until D&D became wildly popular in the mid-70s.

Not that I am complaining about its use given my own history. Also welcome to the Pub!
View attachment 48595
A Riot within the City-State of the Invincible Overlord.

View attachment 48596
Well, I've always been a big miniatures guy, because I like building things and then seeing the looks on people's faces when they see the game table. So, yes, a very big role.

We all pretty much came out of board and. miniatures games, so it was a natural thing for us to carry it over into RPGs. However, as the game became more popular, demand vastly exceeded production capacity and people got used to doing without. It's the way the thing went.
 

DeadBob

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Well, I've always been a big miniatures guy, because I like building things and then seeing the looks on people's faces when they see the game table. So, yes, a very big role.

We all pretty much came out of board and. miniatures games, so it was a natural thing for us to carry it over into RPGs. However, as the game became more popular, demand vastly exceeded production capacity and people got used to doing without. It's the way the thing went.
Heh, coming from outside of the miniatures hobby, for me and my friends* it was also a lack of accessibility. We simply didn't have hobby shops on one hand and didn't have a whole lot of cash for minis on the other.

My first minis gaming was with old Airfix 1/72 WW2 minis that were on discount at the local department store and a miniatures wargame book that somehow had ended up in our local library (and which my pals and I treated like an ancient holy text).

Early on, miniatures wargaming was something more rumored to exist, that we'd kind of heard of third or fourth hand (or postulated partially ourselves), than something we knew anyone involved in, save for one kid's dad who'd been military and done some Avalon Hill games and had talked about minis gaming (though never demonstrated it to us).

*small town USA, circa 1980-81-ish.
 

DeadBob

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I mentioned this to Chirine elsewhere, but I feel that the success of both Games Workshop and WotC editions of D&D managed to undermine acceptance of the use miniatures in RPGs.

It's an involved argument, but it comes down to the idea that they set up the way people think about miniatures use (eclipsing other, small company, DIY, or simpler and less expensive versions) and magnified the negatives for people who already had doubts.
 

robertsconley

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I think we are on the cusp of a significant sea-change when it comes to miniatures with the advent of 3D Printers. At some point soon the technology will become ubiquitous and STL files will become the standard way of distributing miniatures. The DIY miniature folks are currently in the midst of this change.

For a Christmas present to my wife, I was able to recreate how our LARP characters were dressed when we first met. Buy the STL file, and have a friend use a resin printer to make them. Then I painted them. From start to finish the project took two months and about four hours of actual work on the part of myself and my friend. There was some time waiting for something to happen like shipping and the actual 3D Print. This would been impossible to do in a reasonable manner in past decades.


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DeadBob

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I have very much been looking forward to that change due to 3D printers coming down in price and going up in quality and ease-of-use.

Part of it is just I hope we see broader choice in art styles. Right now I see a lot of STL files for minis that, how to put it, Out-GW Games Workshop in their Grimdarkitude.

Me, I'd like to see more Henson/Froud type stuff, or even just more humor/cozy oriented stuff, because there's not a whole lot on the market.

I also think that 3D printing could be more beneficial for RPG gaming than for anything but the smallest scale (figure count, not model scale) wargaming.

3D printing seems way more useful for miniatures of distinct individuals or things that come in small groups (say 3-6) than for 28mm scale squad/platoon/company sized formations (although having specific individuals for that paired with more usual methods for the rest of the Rank n File seems useful).
 

Brock Savage

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I mentioned this to Chirine elsewhere, but I feel that the success of both Games Workshop and WotC editions of D&D managed to undermine acceptance of the use miniatures in RPGs.

It's an involved argument
, but it comes down to the idea that they set up the way people think about miniatures use (eclipsing other, small company, DIY, or simpler and less expensive versions) and magnified the negatives for people who already had doubts.
Can you elaborate? One could just as easily claim GW and Wizards have increased awareness and acceptance of minis in combat focused RPGs.
 

robertsconley

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It is my understanding that you are only limited by the surface area of your printer. So you can make a grid pattern to print multiple figures for miniature wargaming.

And Youtube to the rescue

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DeadBob

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Can you elaborate? One could just as easily claim GW and Wizards have increased awareness and acceptance of minis in combat focused RPGs.
Oh I absolutely think they've increased awareness, but within a relatively narrow range of expectation/norms.

ETA:
Sorry, I was going to elaborate earlier with the post you quoted, but I couldn't think of a good TL;DR explanation in one or two lines.

GW increased awareness and acceptance but also came with negatives like high levels of competitiveness (both at the table and out-off-game, including economically), a focus primarily on an individual player's personal "army" and not group stuff, an idea that everything was to be gussied-up to museum quality (which them tended to exclude acceptance of mid-range quality hobby results and create an all-or-nothing mindset WRT the skills needed), and really pushed general hobby prices up ( with a paired expectation that getting into miniatures really had a high upfront dollar/pound/euro cost to even dip your toe in).

With later D&Ds, there was a real effort of systematizing at a really very detailed level the interactions with miniatures and tended to be much more complex than was often seen in miniatures games. From my PoV, that level of systematizing is clunky even within a competitive game type, and largely unnecessary in an RPG, which tends to be about challenge but not head-to-head competition.

And, since both of those companies were/are the dominant players in their respective hobby mind spaces, they tend to set the tone for broad expectation. That then tends to eclipse other possibilities to the extent that often there isn't even an awareness that other approaches are possible or fun or more economical.
 
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DeadBob

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It is my understanding that you are only limited by the surface area of your printer. So you can make a grid pattern to print multiple figures for miniature wargaming.

And Youtube to the rescue

View attachment 48602

Sorry, I didn't mean you couldn't print up an army, but rather that 3D printing was better for printing up unique individuals.

So, for example, you could print up a lot of individualized characters, and print them on an as-needed basis for a given adventure for that week's session, even if 3D printing never particularly sped up its printing time.

While it isn't always true for sure, many times, functionally for RPGs, you don't really need large numbers of a given type of critter or person or baddie (or goodie), but you'll want access to a broad variety of types, and easy access to more. 3D printing could really pair well with that.
 

Brock Savage

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Oh I absolutely think they've increased awareness, but within a relatively narrow range of expectation/norms.
You claimed "the success of both Games Workshop and WotC editions of D&D managed to undermine acceptance of the use miniatures in RPGs." Can you share the line of reasoning that brought you to that conclusion?
 

DeadBob

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You claimed "the success of both Games Workshop and WotC editions of D&D managed to undermine acceptance of the use miniatures in RPGs." Can you share the line of reasoning that brought you to that conclusion?
Apologies Brock, I was ETA'ing the earlier response post to cover some of where my thinking was coming from.

Actually, I can Teal Deer it a little bit:

The Big Dogs set hobby wide expectations. If those expectations include things an individual considers negative, then those negatives will tend to be presumed to be present in all or most other games as well, even if that is not the case.
 

Brock Savage

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The Big Dogs set hobby wide expectations. If those expectations include things an individual considers negative, then those negatives will tend to be presumed to be present in all or most other games as well, even if that is not the case.
Can you elaborate a little and present an example?
 

DeadBob

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Can you elaborate a little and present an example?
Sure, an easy-peasy one WRT GW: Cost

I was looking at the newer Horus Heresy boxed set. Sells for around $250 USD on Amazon. Has lots of lovely stuff in it. I was tempted to pick it up and play an older version of WH40K with a buddy of mine who still has an Ork Army/Collection dating back to 1-3 edition. Heck, may even use older rules set. Yay us!

It's $ 250. From prior experience, even with an army box that is as nice as that one, players are going to want to expand their force for flexibility and a slight PV upgrade at minimum. Let's say that I'm not going wild, but I probably would want at least another $100 of stuff within pretty short order.

So, about $350 to get going.

That's...kind of a chunk of change to drop up front for most people just starting out.

With the visibility and sucess of GW, that sets expectations of cost to get into miniatures gaming, for just your own personal stuff.

GW tends to cast such a long shadow that even when I try to discuss other minis gaming options that don't fall in that price range (or at least not in one upfront chunk, just for your own personal toys), end up doing a lot more explanation than I really feel like doing just to try to explain that other options and possibilities exist.

So, IMO, the success of GW has also set up a more extreme pushback for those who find that (the upfront cost factor) a negative.

If I try to have a convo about minis gaming, in an audience who is mostly imprinted on GW style selling and price points, I end up doing a ton of work just to explain the possibility of gaming with 1/72 WW2 models as an option and on a significantly lower upfront cost.

It has also been my experience that, having even done all of that work in an online convo just to present a different possibility, that I will then inevitably run into a later poster who drops in under the original negative impression ("Miiniatures wargaming has a minimum $350 buy-in just to try it!"), and the whole thing becomes annoyingly circular, and I drop out in frustration.
 

Black Leaf

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Was there any known link between the Banania game and the later Junta boardgame? I'm intrigued by the similarities

(Junta was originally Merlin Southwell/Creative Wargames Workshop if there's any crossover there).
 

DeadBob

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D DeadBob Okay, thanks for clarifying your position!
Yeah, it's a bit like when someone has a negative impression about how long a combat encounter takes to play out, because their experience is with a later version of D&D,

I know from experience that earlier versions/clones/OS(R) games tend to play way quicker.

But, when I try to convey that to them, their head space and experience with Late-D&D edition is so fundamental to their understanding of RPGs (and also negative) that my explanation just gets, at best, politely rejected.

I know you like some of those kinds of rule sets, so perhaps this parallel sort of experience that you may also have had at some point in online discussions may help clarify further where I'm coming from. Maybe? (Comparisons are always a bit fraught, so I hope for the best).

Or, I dunno, maybe someone says that they despise boardgames. You ask why and they start to go off on specific elements they dislike, and you start to realize that how they understand board games is pretty much defined by their unhappy experiences with Monopoly.

You start suggesting other games that one way or another don't have those problems they associate with Monopoly, maybe hitting specific points or offering multiple other options with explanation, but at the end of it...they still hate boardgames because of Monopoly. (I had this actual real-life experience with a someone, but they swore they hated all games and left a social gathering entirely because someone suggested playing Apples to Apples.)
 

DeadBob

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Was there any known link between the Banania game and the later Junta boardgame? I'm intrigued by the similarities

(Junta was originally Merlin Southwell/Creative Wargames Workshop if there's any crossover there).
chirine ba kal chirine ba kal , I wondered about this also, if there was any connection between the two.
 

Brock Savage

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Yes, 4th Edition D&D was actually the first time I ever consistently used miniatures in what was then 30 years of gaming.
I think in many cases that comes down to the local availability of miniatures in the before times and long long ago of the pre-Internet. I am guessing miniatures were not a thing in small town and rural America. I grew up in the Greater Los Angeles Metro and miniatures were available locally from a variety of sources. I don't remember my exact age when I got my first miniatures and battlemat but it was after 8 and before 12
 

Vargold

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I think in many cases that comes down to the local availability of miniatures in the before times and long long ago of the pre-Internet. I am guessing miniatures were not a thing in small town and rural America. I grew up in the Greater Los Angeles Metro and miniatures were available locally from a variety of sources. I don't remember my exact age when I got my first miniatures and battlemat but it was after 8 and before 12

I had 2 boxes of Grenadier AD&D miniatures, but they were honestly hideous to look at. The Cardboard Heroes line from Steve Jackson Games was much more attractive, but we never really used them--just played TotM instead.

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Black Leaf

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I think in many cases that comes down to the local availability of miniatures in the before times and long long ago of the pre-Internet. I am guessing miniatures were not a thing in small town and rural America. I grew up in the Greater Los Angeles Metro and miniatures were available locally from a variety of sources. I don't remember my exact age when I got my first miniatures and battlemat but it was after 8 and before 12
Yeah, same. They were very common in the cities in the UK, along with being advertised widely in White Dwarf.
 

DeadBob

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FWIW, as kid I tended to make do with whatever I could find for miniatures.

When I later heard that owlbears had been a result of one of the early hobby founders using an extremely cheap-o knockoff kaiju monster toy, I felt in very good company.

I only really got interested in using minis in RPGs once I was an adult and only after having an early run with WH40K (RT-3e) miniatures gaming.

I took about ten year hiatus from that, and only really re-interested in my mid 30s, at which point I really wanted to expand away a bit from Big Name gaming and look for more DIY/ cottage industry/ roots minis gaming.
 

sharps54

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Minis have been my bane. I can’t paint for crap so I have a pile of unpainted minis. This is exasperated by the fact I am fine playing with substitute minis from board games or even pogs or paper minis. I will probably sell me pile of lead eventually.
 

DeadBob

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Minis have been my bane. I can’t paint for crap so I have a pile of unpainted minis. This is exasperated by the fact I am fine playing with substitute minis from board games or even pogs or paper minis. I will probably sell me pile of lead eventually.
I love miniatures, but I'm a mediocre painter at best.

These days, unless it's a really special miniature, I use Army Painter/The Dip Method and Dullcote and call it a day.
 
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