I can't stand bean counting anymore in my pseudo-medieval games ! What should i do ?

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

That's it !

The last time I made a D&D 5th edition character, I couldn't be arsed to count my beginning gold pieces budget. That bored me to tears !

I decided that my character would don heavy armor - not the full plate armor, mind you: the one one step before that. Because that was the armor that looked cool ! and it was the kind of armor - a kind of brigandine - that made sense for my character.

As usual, the DM shot a glance at my character sheet, and said it was okay. Because, basically, he trusts me (we've been gaming together for 30 years), and he doesn't care about the kind of armor my PC wears - as long as I'm content with it.

But one of the other players (a friend of 25 years) began the game by bitching about the fact that he would have liked to afford a full plate armor for his PC at the very beginning of this new campaign.

But he couldn't - his PC class hadn't enough debutante's dough .

And he bitched, and he moaned, and I didn't really listen because I was too busy enjoying playing my PC with his brigandine armor (among other things), and slicing baddies in half with Lawfuf Goodness fueling my righteous fury. That's what D&D is all about, compradres !

But then, having guessed at my PC class (Him : "So you're playing a Paladin ?" ; Me - "No ! I'm playing Badass Maladjusted Idealist struggling with an unjust world ! [I hate it when my clever attempt at painting a full-fledged character is summarized as "So you're playing Generic Name Class ? Your to hit bonus are SO COOL, dude !"), my friend asked, for the benefit of all at the table :
- How come you're wearing a brigandine ? I can't even afford a full plate armor with my un-optimized PC class !
- Hu ?
- You've not enough gold ! Count it, man !
- [eyes glazing over] you're sure ?
- Count it ! Count it !
- [grabbing the unwieldy rulebook, flippping morosely through it, and finding the right page] Yeah... It appears you're right... [I don't give a frak !]
- You've not enough gold at the beginning ! If everyone could afford the kind of armor he wanted at the beginning of the game, I would have chosen muh full plate, dude !
- [grabbing my eraser, erasing the offending brigandine on my character sheet, and replacing it with CHAINMAIL ARMUR !] There, there ! It's all taken care of, friend. Can we go on playing, now ?

Two hours in table game (real) time later, sure enough, the party of PC found enough gold to buy several chariots of full plate.

But I still kept my chainmail armor, because I found its description aesthetically pleasing.

All that to say, while metaphorically clubbing my dear friend on the head with bag of beans and screaming at the top my lungs: I am fed up of f*** bean counting in my rpgs !

...

Well, that was a bit of a rant .

My question is: which of you gentle Pubbers could point me in a direction of an abstracted system of ressources for a medieval RPG ? It doesn't need to be complex or extensive, it's just that the next time I'm mastering a game I aim not to inflict accounting duties on my hapless gamers, seeing as it [double upper duper] bores me already well enough .

 

[Raleel]

do you want an actual solution?

• "Yes, maybe so. I don't really care. that's not what I'm here for. I don't really do the whole optimization thing"
• "Yo, GM, can we play with the optional rule where we don't need to keep track of magic item bonuses and just have them inherent?"
• "How about a superhero game?"

In this scenario it's the guy insisting and being an asshat. I've been that asshat, sadly.

there are, of course, other options!

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

I see your point, Raleel, I do.

On the other hand, I hadn't seen those dear friends around the table for some years because of the pandemic, and I wanted to be accommodating.

I bear no remaining ill will to my full-plate loving friend... now that I've ranted about it and got it out of my system .

But this little episode really made me curious about abstracted wealth systems for medieval fantasy RPGS.

 

[Gabriel]

My question is: which of you gentle Pubbers could point me in a direction of an abstracted system of ressources for a medieval RPG ? It doesn't need to be complex or extensive, it's just that the next time I'm mastering a game I aim not to inflict accounting duties on my hapless gamers, seeing as it [double upper duper] bores me already well enough .

It's not a question of system. It's that what you want out of the activity does not match what your friend of 25 years wants out of the activity.

You can stop bean counting in just about any system. All it takes is a desire to change the focus away from counting loot and micromanaging inventory. It's not a system thing. It's a player thing. Your friend of 25 years doesn't want to shift away from that gear. He still wants to count score.

 

[Raleel]

But this little episode really made me curious about abstracted wealth systems for medieval fantasy RPGS.

well then, we can talk about this while you pummel your friend with a baguette or something!

• BRP has an abstracted wealth system that recently came up over on the BRP board
• Destined has a somewhat more abstracted equipment system. You get allotments (like 3-10, depending on things) and you assign them to equipment. You can assign them to contacts and a few other things as well. While not technically a medieval fantasy system, I see no reason it couldn't be used that way. The blurb from the book:

It’s rare that you see a comic book where the hero fishes around in their utility belt for loose change for parking, or the dramatic scene where we see them talk to their accountant about allocating money from their holdings to purchase that new turbocharged motorcycle they’ve been wanting. Although it does factor into some stories, comics don’t really concern themselves with where superheroes get all their high-tech gear or go into great detail about their finances. Destined follows this example by using a system called “Allotments” to track what a hero has available to them for a given adventure and how they can switch out equipment if the situation demands it

• WoD games have a rating and you roll against that for your stuff, or can buy stuff at a rating. Similar to the BRP one. Also no reason it can't be used. it'll just feel odd because folks associate medieval fantasy with D&D.

 

[FreeGamer]

d20 Modern had an abstracted wealth system that worked okay. It had some oddities, but nothing too drastic. The one bit of weirdness I do remember is that objects over a certain value level automatically cost you 1 permanent wealth regardless of its current level(you can normally just afford anything with a value less than your wealth level, but only to a point), which meant in such situations you were encouraged when buying X already-expensive item to get the most expensive version of X your wealth score will allow you to.

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

Thanks. I'm checking the BRP stuff right now. The Modern d20 stuff interests me also.

[edited for clarity]

 

[Mankcam]

I don't mind bean-counting in certain settings, like an ancient/medieval inspired setting or post acopolyptic setting ('bean-counting' meaning 'things of currency', such as coinage, equipment, barter goods, etc)

For more broad sweeping settings (like pulp fantasy, modern times etc) I greatly prefer not to get microscopic on accounting

Other options, just from my experiences:

* BRP Status Skill (from Call of Cthulhu's Credit Rating skill)
* Storyteller/Storypath has a Resources trait
* Fate Core just assumes you start with whatever equipment sounds reasonable for the character's High Concept Aspect and other Aspects (descriptors)
* Numenera has an in-setting currency, but it's generic system Cypher has an abstracted Wealth system
* Vaesen has a Resources trait
* D20 Modern had a wealth system, and I suspect its inheritor Everyday Heroes also does.
* Amazing Adventures 5E has a wealth system, and I think the SIEGE version also does.
* True20 (now out-of-print) also had an abstracted wealth system - Green Ronin's more recent system FantasyAGE may have inheritied a version of this

 

[Lofgeornost]

I was going to suggest True20, but I guess its wealth system is just derived from D20 Modern.

There are some medieval-ish games that tone down the bean-counting without eliminating it entirely. The Black Hack, for instance, simply gives players a choice of starting armors & weapons—pick this option or that one.

 

[PolarBlues]

If you are tired of bean counting, how about switching to potato counting? There was a heating discussion about that in another thread just today https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/the-dank-memes.630/post-427950

And while I might be too basic or eccentric for your needs, Polar Fudge Medival Adventures dispenses with tracking money altogether.

 

[Fenris-77]

We do really need to figure out what the footspeed of a fully potato-laden adventurer is.

 

[SJB]

Delta Green has a good system that divides wealth into bands that include money & influence. You might be able to afford satellite time but can you swing access?

On the plate armour front, the late medieval royal armouries were a limited resource. They were as much about political influence as coin. It might be worth noting that it was impossible to don this kit without assistance.

However, I don’t think that’s the issue. I must admit that my own rules allow characters to have whatever armour and weapons they want, sometimes with a tech level cut off.

 

[PolarBlues]

On the subject of potatoes, I remember playing in a little throw-away D&D one shot a friend of my mine was running. My character was some sort of spellcaster, so for a fun I made this background for her in which she was like daughter of a Valkyrie and a potato farmer.

The GM looked at my character sheet, frowned and then told me that potatoes were an anachronism and could I change that.

I looked at the GM and said "Potatoes... that's where you draw the line?"

 

[malc]

My question is: which of you gentle Pubbers could point me in a direction of an abstracted system of ressources for a medieval RPG ? It doesn't need to be complex or extensive, it's just that the next time I'm mastering a game I aim not to inflict accounting duties on my hapless gamers, seeing as it [double upper duper] bores me already well enough .

Greg Stolze’s Reign (I think the first edition is still free in PDF) has some rules for abstract money. They’re quite nice, but a bit over-complex for my taste.

 

[JAMUMU]

I like the Burning Wheel rules for resources, and they aren't that hard to hack into other systems. Your Resources stat tells you how much mullah you have, and the further away from your stamping grounds you go, the harder it becomes to leverage your Resources (owning three manors in your homeland means jack shit 1000 miles away). There's also Cash which are expendable Resource points.

 

[Mangoplum]

I'm firmly on the fence over this sort of thing.

On the one hand, I despise in-game shopping trips and fussing over the loot.

On the other hand, I love it when a setting is expressed through what equipment is rare/expensive and high/low quality. I HATE it when every Podunk trading post carries the entire core equipment list, including magical items! When all swords/rope/food are reliably similar.
I want to struggle to get the coolest armor, giant warhorse, and associated bling. I want the hard choices between what I want and what I can afford, maybe tempting me toward less ethical sources of income.

I haven't been too happy with abstracted 'wealth' systems though, because they end up feeling handwavey/handjobby, and too 'narrative' for my tastes.
I'd rather the 'bean counting' be more interesting, somehow.

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

If you are tired of bean counting, how about switching to potato counting? There was a heating discussion about that in another thread just today https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/the-dank-memes.630/post-427950

And while I might be too basic or eccentric for your needs, Polar Fudge Medival Adventures dispenses with tracking money altogether.

Thanks PolarBlues ; I will check it out.

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

Greg Stolze’s Reign (I think the first edition is still free in PDF) has some rules for abstract money. They’re quite nice, but a bit over-complex for my taste.

I'm a fan of Greg Stolze, and I happen to have the pdf handy somewhere.

I read Reign quite some time ago, and thought it was a great system. I look forward to getting re-acquainted with it.

 

[Mosker]

I'm a fan of Greg Stolze, and I happen to have the pdf handy somewhere.

I read Reign quite some time ago, and thought it was a great system. I look forward to getting re-acquainted with it.

A man who knows how to take advantage of his voice... https://www.ludonarrativedissidents.com/ (I even shelled out for the KS patreonage)

 

[Sharrow]

d20 Modern had an abstracted wealth system that worked okay. It had some oddities, but nothing too drastic. The one bit of weirdness I do remember is that objects over a certain value level automatically cost you 1 permanent wealth regardless of its current level(you can normally just afford anything with a value less than your wealth level, but only to a point), which meant in such situations you were encouraged when buying X already-expensive item to get the most expensive version of X your wealth score will allow you to.

It also meant that the order you bought expensive items in could matter, which was slightly odd.

 

[opaopajr]

Have you considered practicing the counting of beans in your free time? With enough repetition you may learn to love it.

 

[Uferschnepfe]

IMHO if everybody gets everything at the beginning of the game, why play at all?

I'd take the Vorpal Sword and the Witching Cloak (see Fables by Bill Willingham) and snicker, snack...

Things like a good armor have to be earned, not given away.

Seriously, if someone insists on a plate mail for his starting character, the first adventures will be all about stealth and surprise visits in the night (you cannot sleep in plate armor).

For me, bean counting is an essential part of pseudo medieval games.

So my suggestion would be: Play something different, like CoC, where bean counting is usually not part of the system.

 

[thebigh]

I kind of get it. Buying starting equipment is, in a way, part of chargen. Although I wouldn't obsess over every last GP, seeing one character decked out in armour or wielding a fancy shiny sword that I couldn't have afforded would feel a lot like seeing them turn up having "rolled" nothing bu 16+ in every attribute.

 

[GianniVacca]

But I still kept my chainmail armor, because I found its description aesthetically pleasing.

In QuestWorlds irrespective of what armour you're wearing you'll fight the same.

 

[Sharrow]

Note that the armour in question, 'Splint' costs 200gp, and Paladins (and most other classes) get 5d4x10gp starting gold if they choose to roll it. So the armour is not far out of what a 'best roll' would've granted - like 'do a short adventure, upgrade to splint' close. It's really, really not something to get worked up about.

The most I'd do if I realised the GM had been generous like that to one PC would be to ask if I could have that one thing that went just over my character's starting budget, like having a bow and a sword and chain or my Wizard having a spare spellbook stashed at their parents' place (or their mentors') in case they lost their 'adventuring' one.

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

Yeah, like what Sharrow said.

 

[Lychee of the Exchequer]

Have you considered practicing the counting of beans in your free time? With enough repetition you may learn to love it.

After much deliberation, Opaopajr, the only bean that I want to be counting in my medieval fantasy adventures is Jack's* !

*from Jack and the Beanstalk

 

[S'mon]

No one would have complained if you'd taken the +6 AC chainmail the game lets you start with, and reskinned it as +6 AC low quality brigandine (etc). It's not about bean counting, it's about tactical advantage. You just gave yourself +1 AC in a game where that's important. The other players were playing by the rules, you weren't. I'd be pissed too. I've heard of tables where the GM lets the PCs have whatever Attributes the players want - "I have DEX 20" - but obviously it wasn't that kind of a table.

 

[S'mon]

As far as no-bean-counting, there are Narrativist/Storygame games ofc but I'd use Mini Six, which by default doesn't worry about counting coins. There are $ $$ and $$$ signs besides various gear to indicate if it's expensive, but the system is fine with the GM handing out whatever he wants.

 

[Agemegos]

After much deliberation, Opaopajr, the only bean that I want to be counting in my medieval fantasy adventures is Jack's* !

*from Jack and the Beanstalk

Have you considered counting beans in a sci-fi game instead? ;)

 

[Imaginos]

So….you’re a vampire and are tired of people dropping beans for you to count before you can enjoy them? Do you think that’s why so many people switched to rice? Well that and rice being so much smaller and harder get them all (they are the Pokémon of the food pyramid!)


But to the point, if everyone is sitting down to play the game together, I can understand if everyone but player Y followed the same rules and player Y chose to just pick what’s cool. This is no slight on you, but you weren’t taking the same mindset others were. Would it have been cool if the arcane class player had picked Fireball to use as a first level spell because it was more cool? It just begs the question and shows where everyone has to talk it out at the start.

To the point about Paladin starting funds, IIRC, you get either equipment choices or money. And if the character spent all (max possible) 200 gp on a suit of armor, he wouldn’t have funds for weapons and other semi-necessary sundries.

I’m not saying anyone is right, just that you obviously went into it with different mindsets and that’s what happens.

 

[AsenRG]

There are a number of systems of doing that, man. But the main thing is...how do you deal them money if they find a treasure?
I mean, you could give them whatever equipment makes sense, and have the PCs be bravos, Alatriste/Traveller-style, using those resources to fulfill missions that don't allow them significant upgrades - but that's a very different style of play to that of most D&D groups. Which seems to be what you've got at your hands.
And honestly, it sounds like you want to play Barbarians of Lemuria: at the end of each adventure, PCs are rich, at the start of the next one, they're penniless and looking for a way to finance their drinking habits, again. But at least they get a bonus for describing how they spent those ill-gotten* money!

*It's BoL, of course the gold was obtained by robbing snake/death-cult temples, pirating and killing snake-bodied gods!
OTOH, you could use them to purchase useful stuff, as long as you also pay it with Advancement points.

I’m not saying anyone is right, just that you obviously went into it with different mindsets and that’s what happens.

That much was obviously true. So the solution is to talk it out...or, when he's running for them next, to just tell them "I ain't counting beans in this game, feel free to if you want, but I'm handling money as a binary Penniless/Filthy Rich state, BoL style".
Remember, the Referee can just tell, the players need to talk it out!

 

[Voros]

Into the Odd has a starting kit system that is simple and obvious I wondered why every fantasy game doesn't have it.

Can't recall at the moment how it otherwise handles wealth though.

 

[Michael Gentry]

I mean... if I found out the GM was letting one guy ignore starting gold limits when I had to adhere to them, I might feel a bit salty, too?

 

[Savage Schemer]

And honestly, it sounds like you want to play Barbarians of Lemuria: at the end of each adventure, PCs are rich, at the start of the next one, they're penniless and looking for a way to finance their drinking habits, again.

This is exactly what I was thinking as well.

Or Jaws of the Six Serpents, which assumes the same thing. Gear you find while adventuring is likely to be a prop in Jaws, which basically means that unless you spend your training points to make it part of your character, it's of limited use (meaning it can only be used so many times) and is eventually assumed to be lost, broken, replaced, etc.

 

[AsenRG]

This is exactly what I was thinking as well.

Or Jaws of the Six Serpents, which assumes the same thing. Gear you find while adventuring is likely to be a prop in Jaws, which basically means that unless you spend your training points to make it part of your character, it's of limited use (meaning it can only be used so many times) and is eventually assumed to be lost, broken, replaced, etc.

I see your JotSS and raise you a Legends of Steel...which, IIRC, assumes the same!

 

[David Johansen]

What you should do is play GURPS and take Inumeracy as a disadvantage and demand your GM reward you bonus points for roleplaying it.

 

[Brock Savage]

Abstract wealth and granular wealth both have their places in RPGs. I don't think one is better than the other but if you put a gun to my head I'd say abstract is probably a better fit for most games.

That being said, when it comes to D&D in its various forms I use XP for gold so granular wealth tracking comes with the territory.

I don't bother tracking silver and copper; I stick with gold pieces or their equivalent (roughly equal to $100 USD). The granularity of copper and silver is not worth the hassle.

By using the Lifestyle Expenses as a rough guide for incidental small purchases you can handwave a lot of the bookeeping; obviously you want to ballpark and 100% accuracy isn't the goal. With a Modest lifestyle PCs have 2sp per day to cover miscellaneous bullshit after food and housing; a Comfortable lifestyle gives 7sp to play with and Wealthy has 12sp.

I don't waste valuable game time asking players to roll for gold and pore over equipment lists for starting characters. 5e already has standard equipment sets for class and background that includes starting gold. I modify these for my specific campaign settings. If someone wants something not on the list they just gotta ask.

 

[Brock Savage]

Into the Odd has a starting kit system that is simple and obvious I wondered why every fantasy game doesn't have it.

Can you provide a screen shot as an example? I have had a strong preference for starting kit systems ever since I saw them in B4 The Lost City.

 

[Mankcam]

Can you provide a screen shot as an example? I have had a strong preference for starting kit systems ever since I saw them in B4 The Lost City.

I'm not sure Voros is online at present, but I think I can help you out.
This is what I think he is referring to from Into The Odd 2E: