I want to run D&D, but…

[Ossian]

I want to run D&D fantasy (classic classes, races, monsters, spells, and magic items), but I want it to have:

1. Armor as damage reduction
2. Rolls to cast
3. Magic points
4. Lower hit point totals
5. Saving throws tied to ability scores or some variation of Fortitute/Reflex/Will

it would be nice, but not required, if it also had:
6. Defense rolls/opposed rolls
7. hit locations or called shots or hit locations only on criticals

I am aware of Mythras Classic Fantasy and Hackmaster, but I’m wondering what else is out there and if there’s anything a little lighter.

Is there a rules system like this?

 

[Raleel]

I want to run D&D fantasy (classic classes, races, monsters, spells, and magic items), but I want it to have:

1. Armor as damage reduction
2. Rolls to cast
3. Magic points
4. Lower hit point totals
5. Saving throws tied to ability scores or some variation of Fortitute/Reflex/Will

it would be nice, but not required, if it also had:
6. Defense rolls/opposed rolls
7. hit locations or called shots or hit locations only on criticals

I am aware of Mythras Classic Fantasy and Hackmaster, but I’m wondering what else is out there and if there’s anything a little lighter.

Is there a rules system like this?

OpenQuest has most of that I believe. I think it is only lacking hit locations

 

[Ossian]

OpenQuest has most of that I believe.

Good point. And Mr. Newport is working on OpenQuest for Dungeons, which will help.

 

[TristramEvans]

Chivalry & Sorcery maybe?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Dragon Warriors has all of this apart from hit locations.

 

[Skywalker]

Symbaroum has all of those. 7 is an optional rule and 6 can be achieved by just having the GM roll.

 

[Agemegos]

I want to run D&D fantasy (classic classes, races, monsters, spells, and magic items), but I want it to have:

1. Armor as damage reduction
2. Rolls to cast
3. Magic points
4. Lower hit point totals
5. Saving throws tied to ability scores or some variation of Fortitute/Reflex/Will

it would be nice, but not required, if it also had:
6. Defense rolls/opposed rolls
7. hit locations or called shots or hit locations only on criticals

I am aware of Mythras Classic Fantasy and Hackmaster, but I’m wondering what else is out there and if there’s anything a little lighter.

Is there a rules system like this?

I think GURPS Dungeon Fantasy meets all those requirements except that maybe it does its equivalent of saving throws a bit differently. Might be close enough, though.

 

[SoManyRats]

Advanced Fighting Fantasy (free quickstart here) has races (human, elf, dwarf) but no classes, monsters, spells and magic treasure. Despite "Advanced" in the name it's pretty straightforward, and uses only d6s. It hits most of the targets:
1. armor as damage reduction (not fixed - armor rolls for damage absorbed similar to how weapons roll for damage dealt);
2. rolls to cast magic (with a magical mishap on double 6s);
3. magic points;
4. lower hit points (HP might start out higher, like 14+, but advances slower and involves spending XP that could be spent on other advancements);
5. no specific saves (instead circumstance-specific tests against stats);
6. defense rolls (both combatants make a skill roll, high roll wins and deals damage) and opposed tests; and
7. no hit locations.
It's a pretty light system.

Against The Darkmaster (pay-what-you-want quickstart here) has classic classes and races, monsters, spells, and magic items. It also hits most of the targets:
1. armor as damage reduction (attack roll is compared to armor type on a weapon chart to see the damage done with heavier armor letting less damage through);
2. rolls to cast magic (like all other skill uses);
3. magic points;
4. higher hit points, especially at the start (but with race-based maximums, and increasing HP requires allocating advancements that could otherwise be spent to advance other skills);
5. two saving throws, Toughness and Willpower, that are [relevant stat + race and other bonuses + level bonus];
6. no defense roll in combat but an option each round to shift attack bonus to defense bonus; and
7. Rolemaster-style critical hits that include specific hit locations as flavor text.
The system is not much lighter than D&D but is straightforward: d100+skill, +/- modifiers, beat 100 to succeed or 75 to partially succeed.

 

[David Johansen]

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy delivers much of that but it's not super light. The Fantasy Trip is lighter but might not hit on the classic classes and races. You can do a lot of character customization with talents but there's really no cleric / wizard split.

Middle Earth Roleplaying actually hits a lot of your points. There are more hitpoints but you lose them faster. The hit locations are only on crits though. And you can port in monsters from Rolemaster.

My own The Arcane Confabulation fantasy game covers a lot of it but hit locations are somewhere between optional and manditory, you actually don't need them at all. I've recently come up with a critical table that does hit locations well that I might integrate into The Arcane Confabulation someday. http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/arccon.pdf

I also did a Tunnels and Trolls like game just on a bit of a lark http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/afgfmt.pdf It came out of discussions of where T&T might be improved and what the fans would do if the new owners sucked.

But for that matter, Tunnels and Trolls would work just fine. Bullywug MR 25, Death Sladd MR 250 yeah no problem.

 

[Gute]

Dragonbane by Free legue sounds like a good fit overall!!!

 

[robb]

Palladium Fantasy has a lot of that

 

[David Johansen]

Palladium Fantasy Roleplay first edition would be an excellent choice. Don't let their cludgy later system get you down. First edition is a really good rationalization of D&D's core mechanics with some interesting magic-user options.

 

[finarvyn]

I think that others have pretty much arrived at the solution. Looking at your list of changes to D&D, it looks like D&D is not the rules choice for you to make. Finding rules which are already developed with your goals in mind would seem like a better plan than taking D&D and changing everything.

Gute has a great idea with Dragonbane, but it's still in Beta and I'm not sure when it will hit stores.

So, not to be snarky but you have quite a list of changes to make to D&D (mostly those involving combat and spellcasting) so when you say you "want to run D&D" what are you thinking? What is it about D&D that makes you want to run D&D?

 

[AsenRG]

I want to run D&D fantasy (classic classes, races, monsters, spells, and magic items), but I want it to have:

1. Armor as damage reduction
2. Rolls to cast
3. Magic points
4. Lower hit point totals
5. Saving throws tied to ability scores or some variation of Fortitute/Reflex/Will

it would be nice, but not required, if it also had:
6. Defense rolls/opposed rolls
7. hit locations or called shots or hit locations only on criticals

I am aware of Mythras Classic Fantasy and Hackmaster, but I’m wondering what else is out there and if there’s anything a little lighter.

Is there a rules system like this?

1. Mythras Classic Fantasy
2. Maelstrom Classic Fantasy
3. Barebones Fantasy
The last one doesn't require a corrbook and is probably the lightest of the three, so it's worth at least finding a more detailed review.

 

[robertsconley]

I think that others have pretty much arrived at the solution. Looking at your list of changes to D&D, it looks like D&D is not the rules choice for you to make. Finding rules which are already developed with your goals in mind would seem like a better plan than taking D&D and changing everything.

I agree and I think we can help Ossian better if he explains the type of settings he wants to run and what he envisions the characters doing in that setting. I could guess based on various possibilities I ran into but it is better to be specific.

So, not to be snarky but you have quite a list of changes to make to D&D (mostly those involving combat and spellcasting) so when you say you "want to run D&D" what are you thinking? What is it about D&D that makes you want to run D&D?

To this, I would add personal preferences aside what would be gained by adding all those subsystems?

We could be looking at
-Running dungeon adventures with an RPG other than D&D
-Running D&D for personal reasons but doesn't want to and hoping there is a near clone with the list of mechanics implemented.



My advice is to try an edition D&D RAW before worrying about what is missing or needs to be changed. The result may be surprising, especially for the classic editions.

 

[AsenRG]

So, not to be snarky but you have quite a list of changes to make to D&D (mostly those involving combat and spellcasting) so when you say you "want to run D&D" what are you thinking? What is it about D&D that makes you want to run D&D?

I agree and I think we can help Ossian better if he explains the type of settings he wants to run and what he envisions the characters doing in that setting. I could guess based on various possibilities I ran into but it is better to be specific.

Ahem, guys, the OP said he simply wants to run the D&D fantasy!
If I have to make a guess, he means "a setting with elves and dwarves where the D&D tropes are part of the mainstream culture (so you can identify yourself as "fighter/cleric/monk"), dungeons exist and need to be looted, adventurer guilds are a thing that nobody blinks an eye at, and so on, probably including barbarians somewhere in the north and south, and possibly dark elves underground", but he wants to play it with a game that fits the mechanical bill presented.
Which, yes, won't be D&D. In fact, if any game made them, D&D fans would quickly say it's "not D&D anymore"...

Hence my recommendations, which include three d100 systems. Because all of them fit his list to a T.

 

[robertsconley]

Ahem, guys, the OP said he simply wants to run the D&D fantasy!

Come on, we both know the debates that raged around "What is D&D fantasy". Hence the request for specifics beyond the mechanics.

 

[AsenRG]

Come on, we both know the debates that raged around "What is D&D fantasy". Hence the request for specifics beyond the mechanics.

So? That one is resolved, IMO, there's a reason even you just used past tense when talking about the debates!

These days, it's not even controversial for most people. Most of them would default to what I outlined above upon hearing it, and the term is clearly understandable for most gamers I've communicated with in the last few months (which should be around 30-50 people, thanks to Discord and FLGSs).

So I'm willing to guess that Ossian means "a setting with elves and dwarves where the D&D tropes are part of the mainstream culture (so you can identify yourself as "fighter/cleric/monk"), dungeons exist and need to be looted, adventurer guilds are a thing that nobody blinks an eye at, and so on, probably including barbarians somewhere in the north and south, and possibly dark elves underground". He can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm tagging him for a reason!

 

[robertsconley]

So? That one is resolved, IMO, there's a reason even you just used past tense when talking about the debates!

Unless you want to start up the latest iteration then past tense is appropriate for us two.

These days, it's not even controversial for most people. Most of them would default to what I outlined above upon hearing it, and the term is clearly understandable for most gamers I've communicated with in the last few months (which should be around 30-50 people, thanks to Discord and FLGSs).

Not my experience. It is split between several closely related possibilities. One of which is what you said. But is only one of the possibilities.

So I'm willing to guess that Ossian means "a setting with elves and dwarves where the D&D tropes are part of the mainstream culture (so you can identify yourself as "fighter/cleric/monk"), dungeons exist and need to be looted, adventurer guilds are a thing that nobody blinks an eye at, and so on, probably including barbarians somewhere in the north and south, and possibly dark elves underground". He can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm tagging him for a reason!

The thing we don't have to guess is that we can ask the OP to clarify which I did a few posts earlier.

 

[Mankcam]

Often I hear the term 'D&D' used when people are referring to the entire trpg hobby, but rarely on an rpg forum, so that's why this is confusing.

If Ossian was discussing this in-person at a game shop, I would probably interpret the term 'D&D Fantasy' as a broad reference to Classic Fantasy rpgs.
Ossian is discussing this on an actual rpg forum, so one may surmise that this may not be a reference to fantasy rpgs in general, and that it is a query regarding if there is any D20 OGL or OSR rpg that meets the criteria.

However when reading the initial post, it certainly does make more sense if the term 'Classic Fantasy' rpg replaces 'D&D Fantasy' rpg

 

[AsenRG]

If Ossian was discussing this in-person at a game shop, I would probably interpret the term 'D&D Fantasy' as a reference to Classic Fantasy rpgs.

As a matter of fact, I consider Classic Fantasy to mean something very different...

But as robertsconley said, we can just ask the OP. In fact we did, now he can clarify...and if my guess was correct, my suggestions are already given.

 

[Mankcam]

As a matter of fact, I consider Classic Fantasy to mean something very different...

Well...then we are going into territory regarding if 'D&D Fantasy' means 'mechanics' (ie: D20 roll over TN, D20 roll under, levels, etc) or 'flavour' (ie: 'heroic high fantasy cinematics' like WotC D&D; 'hex crawling dungeoneering with a sword & sorcery undercurrent' like TSR D&D, etc) or something in-between.

It starts getting all very wonkety-wonk academic wonk if we follow the white rabbit down the rabbit hole

But as robertsconley said, we can just ask the OP. In fact we did, now he can clarify...and if my guess was correct, my suggestions are already given.

I guess Ossian will put us all out of our misery soon.

I vote that we settle this in true RPG Pub style with a betting poll to determine what is being referenced with the term 'D&D Fantasy', and Ossian can reveal at the end which posters correctly identified what the term is actually pertaining to, heh heh

 

[Chris Brady]

I want to run D&D fantasy (classic classes, races, monsters, spells, and magic items), but I want it to have:

1. Armor as damage reduction
2. Rolls to cast
3. Magic points
4. Lower hit point totals
5. Saving throws tied to ability scores or some variation of Fortitute/Reflex/Will

it would be nice, but not required, if it also had:
6. Defense rolls/opposed rolls
7. hit locations or called shots or hit locations only on criticals

I am aware of Mythras Classic Fantasy and Hackmaster, but I’m wondering what else is out there and if there’s anything a little lighter.

Is there a rules system like this?

I've done most of that with 5e. But that depends if that's too complex for what you want or not.

 

[Ossian]

I guess @

Ossian will put us all out of our misery soon.

My clarification is going through a final editing pass and will be released…. soon…

 

[Ossian]

By D&D fantasy I mean the classic D&D races, classes, monsters, spells, and magic items. I mean dwarves, clerics, owl bears, magic missiles, and bags of holding. I mean the default fantasy of TSR era D&D. I mean all this, but with the mechanical changes I mentioned in the original post.

I would just use Mythras Classic Fantasy, but my players prefer something lighter. They love D&D 5e, but I don’t enjoy the mechanics. If we kept the D&D fantasy they enjoy, but with mechanics that I enjoy more, I think that would be a compromise that would work for my group. So, I’m looking into what else is out there.

Additionally, I would like to find a way to emulate B/X D&D with the mechanical changes I listed (though probably not all of them if I want to keep it more simple). Here I mean not only the D&D fantasy I mentioned above, but also procedural dungeon crawling, quick character creation, strongholds, and hexcrawling. I think I have that covered with OpenQuest and OpenQuest Dungeons and some conversion work from Mythras Classic Fantasy, but wondered if there’s already something out there.

 

[robertsconley]

That system doesn't exist at the desired level of complexity. That space is occupied by D&D variants or systems that omit various D&D elements like classes like The Fantasy Trip or Openquest. Savage World Pathfinder, Against the Darkmaster, Harnmaster, etc all sit at or just a tad below Mythra Classic Fantasy level of complexity.

Your best bet is to go on DriveThruRPG and comb through the list of fantasy RPGs and see if you find some obscure system that meets your requirements.

I would recommend GURPS 2nd edition as being just right but the lack of a formal "monster manual" and magic items and the fact it is a collectors item now puts a bit of a damper on things.

 

[Mankcam]

By D&D fantasy I mean the classic D&D races, classes, monsters, spells, and magic items. I mean dwarves, clerics, owl bears, magic missiles, and bags of holding. I mean the default fantasy of TSR era D&D. I mean all this, but with the mechanical changes I mentioned in the original post.

I would just use Mythras Classic Fantasy, Hackmaster, or Dungeon Fantasy, but my players prefer something lighter than those games. They love D&D 5e, but I don’t enjoy the mechanics. If we kept the D&D fantasy they enjoy, but with mechanics that I enjoy more than 5e, I think that would be a compromise that would work for my group.

Well if crunchy systems like Mythras Classic Fantasy or Against The Darkmaster are off the list, then I will have to recommend a simple indie version of D&D, Shadowdark, which you may have seen is currently being crowd-funded on kickstarter:
Shadowdark kickstarter project

Despite the full book being some time away, you can download the pdf basic rules for free:
Shadowdark Quickstart

Bear in mind those quickstart rules are reasonably comphrehensive (about 120-130 pages between two booklets) - they are a basic ruleset that can easily be run as it is. Definately download them to check it out, you will be surprised how big it is for a free set of rules.
(and, if you like it, back the full version of the rules on Kickstarter)

Shadowdark is like D&D 5E meets TSR Basic D&D old school, it sounds perfect for what you are after (except it has no hit locations)
Here's the character sheet:

Possibly as good as compromise as you're likely to find

 

[robertsconley]

Shadowdark is like D&D 5E meets TSR Basic D&D old school, it sounds perfect for what you are after (except it has no hit locations)

And no Armor as Damage Reduction. But it does do magic more like what he wants.

But other than that I recommend Shadowdark as well. It plays very well as a minimalist system. It's the integration of ability checks for saving and skills check is pretty clever and lends itself for nuanced rulings as needed.

There is a whole raft of OSR systems that are not 5e with varying levels of complexity like my Majestic Fantasy RPG. But they don't do combat the way Ossian wants. Or does magic the way he wants.

 

[Mankcam]

And no Armor as Damage Reduction.

ah yes I forgot Armour Reduction was on the list

But other than that I recommend Shadowdark as well. It plays very well as a minimalist system. It's the integration of ability checks for saving and skills check is pretty clever and lends itself for nuanced rulings as needed.

There is a whole raft of OSR systems that are not 5e with varying levels of complexity like my Majestic Fantasy RPG. But they don't do combat the way Ossian wants. Or does magic the way he wants.

Yeah it's pretty hard to meet every target on Ossian's list without going into house rule mode

 

[Mankcam]

Possibly another option is Cypher System. It's a universal/generic system (neutral genre) which can easily portray Fantasy with just the core book, although I would recommend the Forsaken book to save a lot of time hacking it into Fantasy. Only meets half of those points on the checklist though.
I quite enjoy running Cypher System, but it's not to everyone's tastes.
Cypher System Core Book review
Cypher System Forsaken review
Cypher System how-to-play review
Just an option

 

[Brock Savage]

1. Armor as damage reduction
2. Rolls to cast
3. Magic points
4. Lower hit point totals
5. Saving throws tied to ability scores or some variation of Fortitute/Reflex/Will

it would be nice, but not required, if it also had:
6. Defense rolls/opposed rolls
7. hit locations or called shots or hit locations only on criticals

Most of these are covered by optional rules in official 5e material or can be easily kludged together. Hit locations are the notable exception.

 

[ffilz]

Seeing all the options, take a look at Cold Iron. It doesn’t do classes quite like D&D but it could come closer. It doesn’t have lower hit points but it has open ended critical hits that can run through the hit points quickly. It doesn’t have all the D&D spells but it has plenty of similarities. It doesn’t have a huge bestiary but creatures are easy to stat up and I could share more of my creature stats. If doesn’t have D&D style magic items but you could import some (but some will not compare well to Cold Iron magic spells of items).

Importantly it has the spell points and casting rolls you’re looking for and the system has stood the test of time.

Cold Iron Overview

COLD IRON OVERVIEW This document is a point of entry to my thoughts and presentation of Cold Iron, a friend’s game I ran a lot in college in the 1980s. It offers some background on the game, pointers to my developing thoughts, pointers to previous iterations of the game, and pointers to my curren...

docs.google.com

 

[AsenRG]

By D&D fantasy I mean the classic D&D races, classes, monsters, spells, and magic items. I mean dwarves, clerics, owl bears, magic missiles, and bags of holding. I mean the default fantasy of TSR era D&D. I mean all this, but with the mechanical changes I mentioned in the original post.

I would just use Mythras Classic Fantasy, but my players prefer something lighter. They love D&D 5e, but I don’t enjoy the mechanics. If we kept the D&D fantasy they enjoy, but with mechanics that I enjoy more, I think that would be a compromise that would work for my group. So, I’m looking into what else is out there.

Additionally, I would like to find a way to emulate B/X D&D with the mechanical changes I listed (though probably not all of them if I want to keep it more simple). Here I mean not only the D&D fantasy I mentioned above, but also procedural dungeon crawling, quick character creation, strongholds, and hexcrawling. I think I have that covered with OpenQuest and OpenQuest Dungeons and some conversion work from Mythras Classic Fantasy, but wondered if there’s already something out there.

I think your best bet is Barebones Fantasy and adding some procedural content from Kevin Crawford's games.

 

[Moonglum]

You might get there by adopting one of the non-D&D systems suggested above, but I feel like most gamers who are picky about their mechanics are never entirely satisfied with any published system until they've house ruled it to their tastes. You might do best just going with the game that provides the creative content you really want (monsters, dungeons, etc.) - maybe a 'clean' edition of D&D itself (these days I recommend OSE above all others) - and then house rule it as you desire. I feel like I could meet all items on the OP's wish list with 2-3 pages of house rules. Although, I'd try to talk him out of the 'armor as damage reduction' item - I don't think it ever works out as well as people think it will.

 

[Brock Savage]

Although, I'd try to talk him out of the 'armor as damage reduction' item - I don't think it ever works out as well as people think it will.

Armor as DR works well in grittier games where combat is entered into lightly and every blow counts. It works well enough in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Mongoose's Conan (which was basically a heavily houseruled 3x).

In bog standard D&D, DR tends to be powerful at the lower levels but does not scale well against monsters who can reliably deal high damage to a low AC character every round. DR 4 plate mail is terrific against goblins, bandits, and dungeon vermin but not so much against say, a hill giant or giant crocodile.

 

[Chris Brady]

Although, I'd try to talk him out of the 'armor as damage reduction' item - I don't think it ever works out as well as people think it will.

Never had any issues.

 

[Mankcam]

In simple systems, just providing a higher target number in order to hurt an opponent is fine for a quick resolution method.
However I find that the armour reduction model is much more ideal for most realistic/gritty systems, where it feels very logical and visceral.

 

[CRKrueger]

You're the GM, just run Mythras.

 

[Ravenswing]

I would recommend GURPS 2nd edition as being just right but the lack of a formal "monster manual" and magic items and the fact it is a collectors item now puts a bit of a damper on things.

Well, the lack of an official, published monster manual. I've seen, and expect you have as well, more than one fan-created D&D-ish monster list for GURPS.

 

[AsenRG]

Armor as DR works well in grittier games where combat is entered into lightly and every blow counts. It works well enough in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Mongoose's Conan (which was basically a heavily houseruled 3x).

In bog standard D&D, DR tends to be powerful at the lower levels but does not scale well against monsters who can reliably deal high damage to a low AC character every round. DR 4 plate mail is terrific against goblins, bandits, and dungeon vermin but not so much against say, a hill giant or giant crocodile.

Which is really as it should be. The knight facing the dragon is protected by his shield, not his armour. That's why Beowulf died, at the end, his shield got aflame!

And it also makes sense that from a game mechanics point of view, the same approach might not work equally well against all enemies!

Never had any issues.

Me neither!