I'm looking forward to Blade Runner.

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AsenRG

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I definitely would only want to run this game with people who have watched the movies and actually understood the nuance, ethical dilemmas and dramatic themes beyond "it's a movie about murderous slave catchers". There's a fuck ton more to those movies than that, and if a player thinks otherwise, they're not going to be a good fit at my table.
Yeah, this:thumbsup:.

The movies are about murderous slave catchers who for their own selfish reasons decide that "No, NOW it's wrong"

(I could mention the RPG Reichstar here)
Way to fail the nuance test, bro:grin:!
(Only humans can be slaves. Is a replicant even human:shade:?)

And I have no idea what Reichstar, which I'd never heard about until today, has to do with it. Seems a lot like "The Man in the High Castle" in setting (after searching), except the characters are supposed to be fighting the powers and trying to stage a rebellion?
So, basically, crossing TMitHC with cyberpunk, unless there's more to it than meets the eye. But that's the opposite of "a Nazi game", which is how Necrozius Necrozius seems to have taken the mention.
(Unless you also think that Midnight is a pro-Sauron setting, of course...in which case, yeah, there'd be no point in continuing the discussion).
 

lategamer

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Okay well I disagree and feel that you’ve oversimplified this but I get your stance. Not much more to exchange with you, especially because you’re implying that I’m into Nazism games.
I think it best that I put you on ignore and then I will leave the thread.

If my poor communication implied that, I apologise. But it wasn't about you.

What I meant was Blade Runner suffers from the same problems as Reichstar. That the PCs are in part dragged in from a regime that involves very distasteful practices (in BR, killing escaped slaves; in Reichstar, actual Nazis). The narrative is that they realise that what they've been doing is "wrong".

In BR, the titular characters only give a crap when it affects them (Deckard wants Rachel to live, K thinks he's the Messiah).

In Reichstar, some of the characters just realise ...or fall in love with a verboten person. And then are meant to work with the Resistance though SADLY this isn't even made explicit in the game. It's literally "So, you're in this, you're doing well, you now realise it might be bad....Go"
 

lategamer

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And I have no idea what Reichstar, which I'd never heard about until today, has to do with it. Seems a lot like "The Man in the High Castle" in setting (after searching), except the characters are supposed to be fighting the powers and trying to stage a rebellion?
So, basically, crossing TMitHC with cyberpunk, unless there's more to it than meets the eye. But that's the opposite of "a Nazi game", which is how Necrozius Necrozius seems to have taken the mention.
(Unless you also think that Midnight is a pro-Sauron setting, of course...in which case, yeah, there'd be no point in continuing the discussion).

The PROBLEM with Reichstar is that it's really just setting and isn't specific about what you're meant to do next. I think it over-relies on the hope that players are decent human beings and will act accordingly (Which means they never went to the roleplaying club in my University). But either way, unless you explicitly state you're playing a member of the Redistance, then you're playing someone who's been benefitting all along as has had their realisation moment.

I guess we can add that to Game Design Sins: here's a fabulous setting, now what? Don't rely on the goodness of people who could, in many cases, be describes as murderhobos.

Now there's nothing wrong with playing the baddie. White Wolf made a heap of cash out of that.
And I have nothing against Blade Runner - I'm working my way through Black Lotus after watching both movies in the last week. I just don't like the way they've described the mechanics. I think it will breed bad behaviours.
 

Gringnr

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I'm not really talking about the [stuff we don't discuss here], so much as I am the idea that, as presented, the replicants, especially Roy, were revealed to be fairly sympathetic. Yes, they did terrible things. But, in the end, they just wanted what most of us want - to live. Batty's saving of Deckard is the product of his realization that, in trying to save his own life, he had become no better than those who were trying to take his. Does Deckard then try to save Rachel because he loves her? Probably. But is he also paying back a debt to Batty? To replicant kind in general? Could be.

I dunno, I don't really see the appeal of playing the Deckard in this situation. Just my two cents.

Aside from all that, I don't think Blade Runner can carry anything more than a series of one-shots, like Alien. Imagine playing D&D and fighting the same creature every time. Sure, you could do it for a while, maybe even a campaign, but sooner or later, you're gonna get bored.YMMV, etc.
 

lategamer

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But, in the end, they just wanted what most of us want - to live. Batty's saving of Deckard is the product of his realization that, in trying to save his own life, he had become no better than those who were trying to take his. Does Deckard then try to save Rachel because he loves her? Probably. But is he also paying back a debt to Batty? To replicant kind in general? Could be.

Hmm, maybe. That's a motivation that I hadn't considered. I thought he was just thinking about his loins.

Rewatching the Directors Cut, I'm re-struck at how human they are. Roy's doing what he does. Looking for life, killing people to cover his tracks but he's not on a murder spree. And what a coward Tyrell is. We don't see Zhora murdering people. Just trying to live. It's tremendously well thought out...and you can see why Deckard retired, and why he has a drink problem.
 

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I'm not really talking about the [stuff we don't discuss here], so much as I am the idea that, as presented, the replicants, especially Roy, were revealed to be fairly sympathetic. Yes, they did terrible things. But, in the end, they just wanted what most of us want - to live. Batty's saving of Deckard is the product of his realization that, in trying to save his own life, he had become no better than those who were trying to take his. Does Deckard then try to save Rachel because he loves her? Probably. But is he also paying back a debt to Batty? To replicant kind in general? Could be.

I dunno, I don't really see the appeal of playing the Deckard in this situation. Just my two cents.

Aside from all that, I don't think Blade Runner can carry anything more than a series of one-shots, like Alien. Imagine playing D&D and fighting the same creature every time. Sure, you could do it for a while, maybe even a campaign, but sooner or later, you're gonna get bored.YMMV, etc.

I think playing Replicants carries a lot more possibility for short campaigns. To me playing a BR would just lead to a constant 'are we the baddies?' loop.
 

Imaginos

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I just unbacked it. While I enjoy the IP across the media, I was mainly getting it for completeness. I don’t need it. I’m looking at purging a selection of my shelves anyway, so adding this is just something for me to avoid.
 

3rik

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Shouldn't it be possible to play something else, in the setting of Blade Runner? Like, not a Blade Runner or a Replicant.

I'm having some second thoughts as well...
 

Rich H

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... Second thoughts here too. I love Free League games but this appears far too limited in scope and the mechanics haven't been explained enough to alleviate all my concerns.
 

Rich H

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Take a look at this, some nuggets in there...


Someone has done a nice summary of this...

» Sweat spot at 3 players + GR

» Splitting the party is intended

» No solo mode now, but MAYBE in the future

» archetypes: inspector, city speaker, doxie, skimmer, enforcer, fixer

» You play as Blade Runner, no other concepts. More possible later.

» the game is still developing

» Replicants: other stress effects, stronger, tougher, socially suppressed

» Blade Runners are not necessarily "hunter/killers" like in the films

» key memory and key relation tie PC in the world around them

» "promotion" and "humanity" are needed to progress evenly

» fewer dice for less focus / mind space

» sometimes more or less than two dice

» less crunchy than TW2K / not dice stepping

» many handouts

» nearly no VK machines anymore / Baseline test instead

» base structure like TftL / Vaesen, but more finding clue based.

» structured in Shifts / one location per shift

» larger group = less time

» one downtime shift per day / character

» more player skill than rolling dice

» no "fail the roll » fail the case"

» rolling dice is more a fall-back option

» information could always be found in several places

» time tracker sheet (like overland journey in FL?)

» cases works (systematically) without handouts

» getting gear with dice roll

» not gear»focussed / no vast of gear

» some city sectors in detail

» Case file generator / lots of random tables

» Workshop Support very unlikely
 

lategamer

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I'm going to write a PBTA BR clone as a learning exercise because I have an idea. Collaborators welcome. I'm still learning PBTA.
 

Picaroon Jack

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Someone has done a nice summary of this...

» Sweat spot at 3 players + GR

» Splitting the party is intended

» No solo mode now, but MAYBE in the future

» archetypes: inspector, city speaker, doxie, skimmer, enforcer, fixer

» You play as Blade Runner, no other concepts. More possible later.

» the game is still developing

» Replicants: other stress effects, stronger, tougher, socially suppressed

» Blade Runners are not necessarily "hunter/killers" like in the films

» key memory and key relation tie PC in the world around them

» "promotion" and "humanity" are needed to progress evenly

» fewer dice for less focus / mind space

» sometimes more or less than two dice

» less crunchy than TW2K / not dice stepping

» many handouts

» nearly no VK machines anymore / Baseline test instead

» base structure like TftL / Vaesen, but more finding clue based.

» structured in Shifts / one location per shift

» larger group = less time

» one downtime shift per day / character

» more player skill than rolling dice

» no "fail the roll » fail the case"

» rolling dice is more a fall-back option

» information could always be found in several places

» time tracker sheet (like overland journey in FL?)

» cases works (systematically) without handouts

» getting gear with dice roll

» not gear»focussed / no vast of gear

» some city sectors in detail

» Case file generator / lots of random tables

» Workshop Support very unlikely
Thanks, it's sounding it has a lot of the mechanics from FL, Alien, and TW200K. I've only ran Alien and I am a fan.
 

The Convenient Skill

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Are Replicants human just because they look like us? Can something constructed by humans be slaves?

Would you consider an advanced Alexa or Siri human just because you can have a conversation with it? What if it was in a human shaped body?

What is the BR punishment for killing people, or aiding and abetting murder if human? (Don't forget they killed a shuttle's crew and passengers before the events of the movie - how many people is that likely to be?).

What are you and your players' opinions on killing - Chaos cultists, goblins in their lair, a human tribe that had killed your village? Where is the line drawn, at what point do players get a conscience?

All of these are a shade of grey, with no right or wrong answers and are somewhat central to BR as a setting.
 

Rob Necronomicon

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What are you and your players' opinions on killing - Chaos cultists, goblins in their lair, a human tribe that had killed your village? Where is the line drawn, at what point do players get a conscience?

It depends on the character and what is required for the group as a whole.

But from a purely personal perspective, I'm quite happy to play an evil or anti-hero character that has very little conscience. Killing Cultists or a nest of goblin childer would be fine from a good character's point of view, as it would be seen as cleansing evil (or even self-defense). I played in a vampire Sabbat game and they were total bastards and would kill anyone that got in their way. Some of the players would kill just for fun. Needless to say, they were all really lovely people in real life. But they certainly liked to blow off steam in a game.

Bladerunner on the other hand would create a more personal dilemma (for me anyway). If you're a 'good' cop maybe you're not so happy about shooting a replicant in the back. Maybe it's a whole personal journey. You start out believing the propaganda and kill a few 'robots' but you realize that these are actual beings. So have you been committing murder? How the heck would you deal with that?

And if you're an escaped replicant does your survival really need the killing of innocent humans? Maybe they learn and grow too and realize that killing is wrong. A bit like Roy at the end.
 

Fenris-77

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I'm going to write a PBTA BR clone as a learning exercise because I have an idea. Collaborators welcome. I'm still learning PBTA.
Take a look at some of the PbtA Cyberpunk games (like The Sprawl). That should get you most of the way there in terms of general stuff leaving you to focus on BR specific stuff.
 

Picaroon Jack

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I've run the Sprawl, it was my first PbtA game. They have quite a few supplements and mission books out now. My players say it's one of their favorite games of mine that they have played. I would put it in my top 3 most fun games in the last 5 years.
 

JAMUMU

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I think I have The Sprawl somewhere. One of the PbtA Cyberpunk games is pretty "normal" Cyberpunk, and iirc there's another one that's a bit more out there and OOPS I just saw Picaroon Jack's post and the other one does seem to be The Veil!

It's my guess that there'll be some kind of swing between "bad robots" and "more human than human" with the replicants, to give players moral options and different paths for advancement. Like I said above, I'd be more worried about the system's (possible) gaminess than the morality of it. As a forever GM, I don't know if I could be bothered making up intricate case-after-case for such a narrow setting, and if given a chance to play, I'd be much more interested in one shots than an ongoing game.

Is there anything (other than FL's system, which I've never tried) that would make this different from a Cyberpunk game focused on Cop characters hunting rogue cyborgs?
 

Fenris-77

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I think I have The Sprawl somewhere. One of the PbtA Cyberpunk games is pretty "normal" Cyberpunk, and iirc there's another one that's a bit more out there and OOPS I just saw Picaroon Jack's post and the other one does seem to be The Veil!

It's my guess that there'll be some kind of swing between "bad robots" and "more human than human" with the replicants, to give players moral options and different paths for advancement. Like I said above, I'd be more worried about the system's (possible) gaminess than the morality of it. As a forever GM, I don't know if I could be bothered making up intricate case-after-case for such a narrow setting, and if given a chance to play, I'd be much more interested in one shots than an ongoing game.

Is there anything (other than FL's system, which I've never tried) that would make this different from a Cyberpunk game focused on Cop characters hunting rogue cyborgs?
I'd probably use the mystery mechanic from Brindlewood Bay to handle the cases. They aren't a ton of work of to write and the mechanic is very cool. Not to everyone's taste mind you, but I really like it.
 

3rik

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Also, I imagine not all blade runners have these nagging doubts about doing the right thing. Some may have less empathy, some may regard their job as necessary or useful for whatever reason. It feels kind of heavy-handed to have a whole group of them go through the same existential crises, including esoteric dream sequences, almost like it's part of the job description. Kind of absurd even.

The main thing that I would want from a Blade Runner game is setting lore; old-fashioned timelines, maps, people, places. How much of that is there going to be in the book?
 
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Gringnr

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Are Replicants human just because they look like us? Can something constructed by humans be slaves?

Would you consider an advanced Alexa or Siri human just because you can have a conversation with it? What if it was in a human shaped body?

What is the BR punishment for killing people, or aiding and abetting murder if human? (Don't forget they killed a shuttle's crew and passengers before the events of the movie - how many people is that likely to be?).

What are you and your players' opinions on killing - Chaos cultists, goblins in their lair, a human tribe that had killed your village? Where is the line drawn, at what point do players get a conscience?

All of these are a shade of grey, with no right or wrong answers and are somewhat central to BR as a setting.
Well, I don't believe Roy and co. went on a murderous rampage until they realized that they were slaves who had committed no crime, but were nonetheless created with a built-in execution date. I get that they killed, but weren't they (and countless others) basically being held against their will? Could you call what was happening to Pris (and, again, countless others) rape? Who was responsible for their treatmeant? Anyone who owned or operated one? There are a lot of questions that aren't answered by the movie or the book. I think when the replicants developed emotions (if that is indeed what they were, and assuming that they didn't always have them), they stopped being "machines", and became "beings". This opens up a whole can of worms, ethically. Why treat replicants any better than we do livestock, or aniimals used for medical or cosmetics testing? Because they can play chess? Pris, though, is a clear cut case of sex trafficking, and a lot harder to handwave.

I'm not offended by the idea of anyone playing a Blade Runner, I get the appeal, broadly. There was a time I would have been all for it. Repeated viewings of the film over decades' time has given me a different understanding of what it's trying to say. Or at least, what I think it's trying to say.
 

JAMUMU

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Yeah, I'd need something similar to Brindlewood Bay to support writing the investigations. We're much more loosey-goosey with a side of improv this weather. Also the days of me jumping through hoops and doing lots of prop creation might not be completely over, and this does seem to be part of the attraction. Maybe if someone did an RPG using the Max Headroom IP!!
 

Fenris-77

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Yeah, I'd need something similar to Brindlewood Bay to support writing the investigations. We're much more loosey-goosey with a side of improv this weather. Also the days of me jumping through hoops and doing lots of prop creation might not be completely over, and this does seem to be part of the attraction. Maybe if someone did an RPG using the Max Headroom IP!!
So, given some further thought, I think the version of the BB mechanics from The Between would be better suited to CP type games. There's an additional level of nuance to the investigation mechanics there that allows for multiple and nested questions that need to be answered and i think they'd be better suited to the range of investigations that a BR hack would want to put on the table, as opposed to BB's steady diet of whodunnits.
 

Malakor

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Well, I don't believe Roy and co. went on a murderous rampage until they realized that they were slaves who had committed no crime, but were nonetheless created with a built-in execution date. I get that they killed, but weren't they (and countless others) basically being held against their will? Could you call what was happening to Pris (and, again, countless others) rape? Who was responsible for their treatmeant? Anyone who owned or operated one? There are a lot of questions that aren't answered by the movie or the book. I think when the replicants developed emotions (if that is indeed what they were, and assuming that they didn't always have them), they stopped being "machines", and became "beings". This opens up a whole can of worms, ethically. Why treat replicants any better than we do livestock, or aniimals used for medical or cosmetics testing? Because they can play chess? Pris, though, is a clear cut case of sex trafficking, and a lot harder to handwave.

I'm not offended by the idea of anyone playing a Blade Runner, I get the appeal, broadly. There was a time I would have been all for it. Repeated viewings of the film over decades' time has given me a different understanding of what it's trying to say. Or at least, what I think it's trying to say.
Could be an interesting campaign idea. Build up to a "replicant's rights" social change. Oh, also, some folks were talking about using other systems to do BR style games; Green Ronin released a cyberpunk supplement for Modern AGE recently. I think MAGE could handle this type of game setting quite well.
 

JAMUMU

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I need to look into The Between, I see it name-checked a lot.

I love the Bladerunner movie, in all its forms. I've watched Bladerunner 2049 a few times and it doesn't quite land for me, but I don't think it's a bad film. But the game looks to be too narrowly focused and too crunchy for all that focus. I just can't see the campaign world I'd build out of this, that I didn'd already run in Cyberpunk2020 or whatever back in ze day.

24XX is more my speed for sci-fi these days, and I might just whip something together to offer to my players, if they want to revisit BR territory. I do hope everyone who's salivating for the official game gets everything they want out of it though.
 

lategamer

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Take a look at some of the PbtA Cyberpunk games (like The Sprawl). That should get you most of the way there in terms of general stuff leaving you to focus on BR specific stuff.
I've got The Veil, so I was gonna start on that ....even though I think that Monsterhearts might be a better basis.
 

lategamer

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lol, what hack? "You have a gun and you shoot bad robots" that's the game
Well, here was my pitch for a PBTA Blade Runner clone.

Kick Murder is a Blade Runner RPG with the serial numbers filed off.

The premise of the game deals with the subject matter of both films - the Replicant and their yearning for Humanity.

Replicants are slave labour. Approved for used in the most dangerous environments - in industry, in war, and used as slaves in other capacities. They're stronger and fitter than humans and in some cases smarter with skills programmed into their bodies before they are decanted. They do not need to sleep, they just work. They'll kill when told to, they'll do whatever they're told. They live in the most basic conditions and they don't know any better.

Replicants are tested using a machine that checks for malformed emotional responses. If the target responds coldly, they go back to work as a Replicant. If they respond perfectly warmly it's possibly they're human. The machine checks for hesitation and creative responses to emotional questions. It's checking for compassion first so they can stamp it out; hence the name VOID COMP.

At the game start, the players (Replicants) have just had their Moment. This is the moment they realise they're not automatons. This is when they receive their first Humanity point. Each Humanity Point is associated with an Emotion which they must describe.

From then on the Replicant is in danger. The regular testing with the VC machine will mean they have a real problem in surviving as their malformed emotions leave them easier to spot.

To survive, the Replicant will chase experiences and mementos to remember their experiences. They'll form attachments and solidify their Humanity. Only by escaping the Containment and solidifying their Humanity have they a chance of survival.
 

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In my Alien campaign the synthetic NPC they recovered from a crashed shuttle from 70 years ago freaked them the hell out. The captain had not seen any of the Aliens movies thought, "SCORE!! A free crew member!!" But everyone else's paranoia meters were off the charts. They ended up sending her with the salvaged/repaired shuttle back to the space station they worked out of.

It would have been much more interesting if a player had been playing that Synthetic, and I bet it is the same way with Blade Runner.
 
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