I'm Not that into Mythras

[gruagach]

I too like 2D20 games. And I liked the Star Wars iteration, and Genesys iteration of the system that powered 3E WFRP. I played 3E WFRP for a short ~4 session "campaign" - but the set up and management of the game pieces was too crunchy for me.

I need to see if I can find a copy of Legend. Heroic Abilities sound interesting.

Mankcam's made several references to simplified character sheets being an attraction. I think, eleseforum, praising Black Sword Hack.

What we need is for Kobayashi to do for Mythras what they did for OSR with Black Sword Hack and what they did for WFRP with Fleaux.

 

[Spellslinging Sellsword]

I need to see if I can find a copy of Legend. Heroic Abilities sound interesting.

PDF is only $1.

 

[Acmegamer]

What we need is for Kobayashi to do for Mythras what they did for OSR with Black Sword Hack and what they did for WFRP with Fleaux.

Yes, very much this. I'll second this request! Kobayashi

 

[Acmegamer]

PDF is only $1.

OMG! As one of my daughters would say. Since it was only a dollar, I snagged it. The %#%@%# font type and style are so readable! WTF Lawrence and Pete. (sigh) I should have snagged a copy of this years ago. The main stopping point before had been the fact that the quality of Mongoose printed materials I had found to always be really shitty. The new Traveller stuff is getting increasingly better, but books they had printed in the 2000's were bad. I'm pondering using lulu to print up the Legends book now. Lol

 

[bleys21]

If you guys don't recant your Legend heresy, you're going to get kicked out of the Mythras cult...

 

[gruagach]

If you guys don't recant your Legend heresy, you're going to get kicked out of the Mythras cult...

D'oh! I'll do my penance now...

 

[Mankcam]

 

[bleys21]

View attachment 61583

Look, don't make me call...

 

[Mankcam]

OMG! As one of my daughters would say. Since it was only a dollar, I snagged it. The %#%@%# font type and style are so readable! WTF Lawrence and Pete. (sigh) I should have snagged a copy of this years ago. The main stopping point before had been the fact that the quality of Mongoose printed materials I had found to always be really shitty. The new Traveller stuff is getting increasingly better, but books they had printed in the 2000's were bad. I'm pondering using lulu to print up the Legends book now. Lol

I'ld consider collecting all the Legend books again if they could be printed up as digest-sized hardcovers

 

[AsenRG]

I need to see if I can find a copy of Legend. Heroic Abilities sound interesting.

...and someone still needs to explain to me how they differ from Gifts!

If you guys don't recant your Legend heresy, you're going to get kicked out of the Mythras cult...

Nah, we don't kick living souls out, don't you worry! But hey, the way in is easy, guys, you should totally come!

 

[Simlasa]

I've got most if not all of the Legend stuff... mostly with the intent of it being additional material for Mythras. That, despite generally having little confidence in Mongoose... and my suspicion that some of the Legend stuff, like Blood Magic, was truncated to fit the little digest format (Blood Magic is missing parts that are mentioned in its introduction).

 

[Kobayashi]

What we need is for Kobayashi to do for Mythras what they did for OSR with Black Sword Hack and what they did for WFRP with Fleaux.

Thanks for the vote of confidence But I'm not sure I'm qualified for the job: though I like Mythras Imperative, I would change so many things that it would'nt be Mythras anymore.

What setting would fit a Mythras-MK (made by Kobayashi )? In my mind d100-based rules are associated to gritty settings (YMMV of course, I've run two Pulp Cthulhu campaigns after all), so I don't know: spies but John le Carré-style? a Sci-fi dystopia? the Korean resistance against Japanese occupation? Monster hunting in 1925 Soviet Union?

First I would make them player facing rules (resolving a lot of issues I have with most d100 games combat), I would seriously consider Troubleshooters' idea of dropping attributes, rework skills (turn them into jobs? I'd have to check Barebones fantasy/Covert Ops again), Adrenaline points or something along those lines but whose use is restricted to your job/specialties, the lethality of Unknown Armies and/or Delta Green, I would need to re-read Gangbusters (and maybe Amazing Engine), just to see how to apply those rules in a wide variety of situations.

And then I would have to go outside RPGs to find more design ideas (boardgames, video games...) that could fit the setting and, of course, all media related to the setting I picked.

So yeah, I would end with something that wouldn't look like Mythras in any way, shape or form.

But damn you, I started taking notes anyway

 

[Arcane_Avatar]

I have a copy of original Legend and several of the other books in hard copy and Lulu'd several of the pdf's into a single volume for the least used ones. Bear in ind that the editing is well down to Mongooose's usual low standard and the later books have chunks missing.

 

[AsenRG]

So yeah, I would end with something that wouldn't look like Mythras in any way, shape or form.

But damn you, I started taking notes anyway

Tagging a designer seldom hurts the fan...

 

[SmallbutVicious]

I do like Mythras, but I still don't feel like I fit in here, as I find the rulebook's font entirely unobjectionable.

 

[GianniVacca]

the Korean resistance against Japanese occupation? Monster hunting in 1925 Soviet Union?

I'd play both!!!

 

[Triumvir]

I do like Mythras, but I still don't feel like I fit in here, as I find the rulebook's font entirely unobjectionable.

Thankyou for this, I don't get it either

What is this "troubleshooters" that has been spoken of?

One of the issues with my beloved RQ3 is that it takes characteristics, and converts them into skill category attribute bonuses. Feels clunky.

 

[AsenRG]

I do like Mythras, but I still don't feel like I fit in here, as I find the rulebook's font entirely unobjectionable.

I can also read it, obviously, and had no idea about potential issue's...but have you seen Mythras Imperative under Abyssinica font?

 

[gruagach]

Thanks for the vote of confidence But I'm not sure I'm qualified for the job: though I like Mythras Imperative, I would change so many things that it would'nt be Mythras anymore.

What setting would fit a Mythras-MK (made by Kobayashi )? In my mind d100-based rules are associated to gritty settings (YMMV of course, I've run two Pulp Cthulhu campaigns after all), so I don't know: spies but John le Carré-style? a Sci-fi dystopia? the Korean resistance against Japanese occupation? Monster hunting in 1925 Soviet Union?

First I would make them player facing rules (resolving a lot of issues I have with most d100 games combat), I would seriously consider Troubleshooters' idea of dropping attributes, rework skills (turn them into jobs? I'd have to check Barebones fantasy/Covert Ops again), Adrenaline points or something along those lines but whose use is restricted to your job/specialties, the lethality of Unknown Armies and/or Delta Green, I would need to re-read Gangbusters (and maybe Amazing Engine), just to see how to apply those rules in a wide variety of situations.

And then I would have to go outside RPGs to find more design ideas (boardgames, video games...) that could fit the setting and, of course, all media related to the setting I picked.

So yeah, I would end with something that wouldn't look like Mythras in any way, shape or form.

But damn you, I started taking notes anyway

At this point, I'd likely buy any game you developed on the strength of Black Sword Hack and Fleaux. And, I'd personally love a John le Carré-style espionage game.

Those ideas for game mechanics all sound like a good start!

 

[gruagach]

...and someone still needs to explain to me how they differ from Gifts!

Well, until I read about them from Legend, that's kinda hard to do...

 

[Kobayashi]

What is this "troubleshooters" that has been spoken of?

A Swedish game based on Franco-Belgian bandes dessinées (well, comics kinda). You'll find quick-start rules and adventures to run with them in this section.
Overall I find it pretty cool (and proves once again that my feeling of d100 = gritty is pretty inaccurate)

And the character sheet can be folded to look like a passport, what more do you need?

 

[Acmegamer]

Thanks for the vote of confidence But I'm not sure I'm qualified for the job: though I like Mythras Imperative, I would change so many things that it would'nt be Mythras anymore.

What setting would fit a Mythras-MK (made by Kobayashi )? In my mind d100-based rules are associated to gritty settings (YMMV of course, I've run two Pulp Cthulhu campaigns after all), so I don't know: spies but John le Carré-style? a Sci-fi dystopia? the Korean resistance against Japanese occupation? Monster hunting in 1925 Soviet Union?

First I would make them player facing rules (resolving a lot of issues I have with most d100 games combat), I would seriously consider Troubleshooters' idea of dropping attributes, rework skills (turn them into jobs? I'd have to check Barebones fantasy/Covert Ops again), Adrenaline points or something along those lines but whose use is restricted to your job/specialties, the lethality of Unknown Armies and/or Delta Green, I would need to re-read Gangbusters (and maybe Amazing Engine), just to see how to apply those rules in a wide variety of situations.

And then I would have to go outside RPGs to find more design ideas (boardgames, video games...) that could fit the setting and, of course, all media related to the setting I picked.

So yeah, I would end with something that wouldn't look like Mythras in any way, shape or form.

But damn you, I started taking notes anyway

On a more serious note, we just appreciate what you do and how you do it. Totally understandable though on your points.

 

[Acmegamer]

I do like Mythras, but I still don't feel like I fit in here, as I find the rulebook's font entirely unobjectionable.

 

[robertsconley]

Just a reminder that Legends and all of the ... of Legends books are 100% open content under the OGL.

 

[Sharrow]

I do like Mythras, but I still don't feel like I fit in here, as I find the rulebook's font entirely unobjectionable.

A decade ago I probably would have found the font unobjectionable, too. But it's not a decade ago, and today I find the font excessively fine, making it hard for me to read with a page set full height on a 32" monitor. I do not find this of GURPS or Pathfinder 2 to choose two examples, one with a dense serifed font, the other with a mixture of serif and sans serif fonts and coloured (i.e. lower contrast) page backgrounds.

 

[CRKrueger]

Can you believe that I was a playtester for WFRP 3e? My friends all loved it at the time, the dice mechanic, having all the rules on cards.

Got huge discounts on the game, hence why I have 99% of it. We played through most of the scenarios in their draft form and had a blast. The Enemy Within campaign was pretty cool too. If I ever sell my collection (which is tempting but fruitless) I'd have a hard time parting with some of it.

I know that it's blasphemy to say it, but it was a decent game and precursor to that immensely popular Star Wars game. The latter wouldn't have existed without the former.

But yeah, all the pieces made it feel more like a board game at times. The simplicity of a single sheet of paper and 2d10s vs. literally HUNDREDS of game pieces on the table...

To be honest, I kind of liked all the widgets, cards and doohickeys of WFRP3, as mostly they were just different ways of keeping information. A lot of people didn’t like it, but the criticism I’m fairly certain was misplaced. For example, D&D 4e was panned similarly as WFRP3 as a boardgame, wargame, etc. but didn’t have any widgets.

The real reason I think for the criticism was it was a different form of game than the previous 30 years. It wasn’t the widgets that sunk WFRP3, hell it wasn’t even the funky dice (although they tried like hell). It was the Jay Little narrative stuff. Minions and worse - mobs that functioned as one entity, zones worthless as ranges and as weird abstract holders of effects. Literal defined Acts and Scenes, not metaphorical, mechanics were attached to these, leading to weird rules interactions, like once you drop out of combat, a priest could heal eternally because the spell cards worked off the narrative structure. People knew this wasn’t anything like the previous RPGs, looked at what was right in front of them - the pile of widgets on the table - and focused blame accordingly.

It’s a shame really. There were some seriously solid and thematic mechanics for races and classes in that game. I can’t remember a system I first read that I was going “This is cool”, more than WFRP3.

Unfortunately for every “Holy Shit this is cool” mechanic, were three to five “You gotta be fucking kidding me” mechanics. I gave up and shoved the whole thing in a storage box and tossed it in the storage area. Funny thing is, I still have it. Now all my RPG storage is in the garage, and I see it sometimes and hear the whispers…’We’re not all bad…take the best of us…merge us into WFRP4…set the Wardancer free… I immediately go back into the house and fire up a Warhammer computer game so I can smite the unholy and purge the unclean thoughts from my mind.

I don’t hate WFRP3 with the fury of a thousand thousand suns.
I only hate the core system of WFRP3 with the fury of a thousand thousand suns.
The rest of the mechanics that were lost, I enter into the Tome of Grudges so that they may be avenged.

 

[CRKrueger]

View attachment 61583

 

[Necrozius]

All this talk about font and book sizes is really giving me the urge to make my own copy of Mythras in InDesign (with whatever artwork I want).

Others do this. So shall I.

 

[Mankcam]

In terms of game mechanics, Legend is Mythras, more or less.
There's a few changes in terminology, but it all ports 99.9% between the games. The Heroic Abilities are more prominent than Gifts are in Mythras (which makes it feel a bit more pulpy), but thats about it.

Mythras is definately the more realised version of the rules, and I'm not actually saying Legend is better than Mythras. It isn't, Legend is the poor cousin of Mythras, but I can certainly see some merits in Legend as well.

What I do like about Legend is that it tends to feel lighter, likely on account of the character sheet feeling slightly simplier, and the rules being presented in digest book format.
I also like Mythras Imperative's less cluttered character sheet, so I guess these days I am leaning back towards more simple character sheets, and that is some of the attraction to Legend.

Having all the rules in digest book format is also a lot more handy for myself, so there's that as well.

Legend is Mythras, heh heh

 

[AsenRG]

And, I'd personally love a John le Carré-style espionage game.

...let me add a voice for that!

 

[Raleel]

But it's not a decade ago, and today I find the font excessively fine, making it hard for me to read with a page set full height on a 32" monitor.

While I support a bigger font and a new layout (really, I do, though it doesn’t bother me overly), I feel like this might be a bit of a stretch, or you need glasses badly. In fairness, it came out nearly a decade ago.

This is on a 32” screen at reading distance. The landscape isn’t even full height due to the ribbon.

 

[CRKrueger]

In terms of game mechanics, Legend is Mythras, more or less.
There's a few changes in terminology, but it all ports 99.9% between the games. The Heroic Abilities are more prominent than Gifts are in Mythras (which makes it feel a bit more pulpy), but thats about it.

Mythras is definately the more realised version of the rules, and I'm not actually saying Legend is better than Mythras. It isn't, Legend is the poor cousin of Mythras, but I can certainly see some merits in Legend as well.

What I do like about Legend is that it tends to feel lighter, likely on account of the character sheet feeling slightly simplier, and the rules being presented in digest book format.
I also like Mythras Imperative's less cluttered character sheet, so I guess these days I am leaning back towards more simple character sheets, and that is some of the attraction to Legend.

Having all the rules in digest book format is also a lot more handy for myself, so there's that as well.

Legend is Mythras, heh heh

Well, seriously though, no.
Legend is MRQII, which was refined by the same authors into RQ6 and the refined again by the same authors into Mythras.
If we called all of the games the Loz & Pete System (L&P) they’d definitely be L&P1e, 2e, and then 2.5 or 3e. Even from RQ6 to Mythras there’s more changes than most Pre7th CoC editions. Legend has a significant number of differences that require GM modification. Sure, not as much as a whole ‘nother BRP Fork, like Revolution, but you can’t just paper over MRQII and Mythras, you gotta put some work in.

 

[Mankcam]

Well, seriously though, no.
Legend is MRQII, which was refined by the same authors into RQ6 and the refined again by the same authors into Mythras.
If we called all of the games the Loz & Pete System (L&P) they’d definitely be L&P1e, 2e, and then 2.5 or 3e. Even from RQ6 to Mythras there’s more changes than most Pre7th CoC editions. Legend has a significant number of differences that require GM modification. Sure, not as much as a whole ‘nother BRP Fork, like Revolution, but you can’t just paper over MRQII and Mythras, you gotta put some work in.

I don't entirely disagree

In fact, I 'mostly' agree (using the Princess Bride definition of 'mostly', heh heh)

Mythras is the most refined version of these rules.
There is a very different product identity going on with MRQ2/Legend and Mythras, but I guess in practical terms it is more or less the same system regarding game mechanics

I think there is a much bigger fork in the road between CoC 7E and classic CoC, which is saying a lot before that's quite interchangable as well

The differences between MRQ2/Legend/Mythras feels much less to me.
I think once we push the emphasis of Heroic Abilities and Gifts to one side, then the only differences that immediately come to my mind is that some skills have different names for exactly the samething, and the Mythras Intitiative score is the MRQ2/Legend Strike Rank score

There may be other changes here and there, but nothing prominent

All BRP is pretty interchangeable, and my 'Legend is Mythras' cry is just a joke statement - but its not really far off track.

I think we could run a MRQ2 or Legend scenario with Mythras and find it's 99.9% compatible on the fly, any minor discrepancies would only be splitting hairs

However, being an internet forum, I fully understand that "Hairs Must Be Split", heh heh

 

[CRKrueger]

I don't entirely disagree

In fact, I 'mostly' agree (using the Princess Bride definition of 'mostly', heh heh)

Mythras is the most refined version of these rules.
There is a very different product identity going on with MRQ2/Legend and Mythras, but I guess in practical terms it is more or less the same system regarding game mechanics

I think there is a much bigger fork in the road between CoC 7E and classic CoC, which is saying a lot before that's quite interchangable as well

The differences between MRQ2/Legend/Mythras feels much less to me.
I think once we push the emphasis of Heroic Abilities and Gifts to one side, then the only differences that immediately come to my mind is that some skills have different names for exactly the samething, and the Mythras Intitiative score is the MRQ2/Legend Strike Rank score

There may be other changes here and there, but nothing prominent

All BRP is pretty interchangeable, and my 'Legend is Mythras' cry is just a joke statement - but its not really far off track.

I think we could run a MRQ2 or Legend scenario with Mythras and find it's 99.9% compatable on the fly, any minor discrepancies would only be splitting hairs

However, being an internet forum, I fully understand that "Hairs Must Be Split", heh heh

Reread the Mysticism/Shaman chapters.

 

[Mankcam]

Reread the Mysticism/Shaman chapters.

Yeah fair call, you totally got me there Kruegs

 

[CRKrueger]

However, being an internet forum, I fully understand that "Hairs Must Be Split", heh heh

It's more than hairs must be split, it's "let's erroneously tell people that Legend is Mythras inferring that anything they want out of Mythras they can just get from this other game the same authors wrote for only $1" (from which I'm sure they get nothing at this point).

Sure, Mythras Imperative is free, but at least it sends eyes their way as opposed to Mongoose's.

You really, REALLY like a stripped down character sheet, NOTED. Now can you stop kicking the authors of these games in the nuts?

Between...

• Everyone patting themselves on the back over how ruffled they were over Mythic Polynesia, to...
• The font choice. You realize they did that so they could actually afford a traditional print run, and more importantly, so we could, right? - I mean it's not comfortable for me to read on paper either, but it can be read and it's 300 pages not 600. People are sounding sometimes like it's a blunder the size of 4e. To...
• "Just buy the Free or 1$ version, it's the same thing or better" mantra.

...I'd be thinking about how much free time I'd have if I just stuck to the day job like I'm sure must have gone through Loz and Pete's head at least once the last year or so.

Sure, I'm going aggro, but DAMN, if I were Loz and Pete I'd be like...

 

[gruagach]

To be clear, I own Mythras. Paid full fare for it too. I own Destined. I own the Mythras Companion.

I heard "hey, this game, Legend, has some maybe Mythras compatible kewl-powerz type things" and I'm like, "I like kewl-powerz. I've been looking for more kewl-powerz for some Mythras adjacent / BRP things I'm brewing. Oh, neat, Legend is only $1."

For anyone wanting to try a BRP game, I highly recommend Mythras. And once I find a game I like, I tend to put my (limited these days) RPG budget towards shoveling as much money to the creators as I can.

In short, Loz & Pete already got all my money

(And I totally think they should do a simpler character sheet!)

EDITED to add: actually, my next budgeted purchase (when I've saved the money) is either going to be Fioracitta or Lyonesse, so technically Pete & Loz don't have all my money yet, but it's slowly making its way to them.

 

[Acmegamer]

It's more than hairs must be split, it's "let's erroneously tell people that Legend is Mythras inferring that anything they want out of Mythras they can just get from this other game the same authors wrote for only $1" (from which I'm sure they get nothing at this point).

Sure, Mythras Imperative is free, but at least it sends eyes their way as opposed to Mongoose's.

You really, REALLY like a stripped down character sheet, NOTED. Now can you stop kicking the authors of these games in the nuts?

Between...

• Everyone patting themselves on the back over how ruffled they were over Mythic Polynesia, to...
• The font choice. You realize they did that so they could actually afford a traditional print run, and more importantly, so we could, right? - I mean it's not comfortable for me to read on paper either, but it can be read and it's 300 pages not 600. People are sounding sometimes like it's a blunder the size of 4e. To...
• "Just buy the Free or 1$ version, it's the same thing or better" mantra.

...I'd be thinking about how much free time I'd have if I just stuck to the day job like I'm sure must have gone through Loz and Pete's head at least once the last year or so.

Sure, I'm going aggro, but DAMN, if I were Loz and Pete I'd be like...
View attachment 61624

The difference, a usable, playable book. My personal grudge is that they are experienced and knew better and yet still did it. Not only that but when it was pointed out both are rather stubborn about not recognizing the poor choice that font was, which doubles down on doing something contrary to what they should have done. Like others I've bought most of their products pd/print, I like to support systems that are different from DnD because I tend to view them as better systems. So yeah, whatever.

 

[Mankcam]

It's more than hairs must be split, it's "let's erroneously tell people that Legend is Mythras inferring that anything they want out of Mythras they can just get from this other game the same authors wrote for only $1" (from which I'm sure they get nothing at this point).

Sure, Mythras Imperative is free, but at least it sends eyes their way as opposed to Mongoose's.

You really, REALLY like a stripped down character sheet, NOTED. Now can you stop kicking the authors of these games in the nuts?

Between...

• Everyone patting themselves on the back over how ruffled they were over Mythic Polynesia, to...
• The font choice. You realize they did that so they could actually afford a traditional print run, and more importantly, so we could, right? - I mean it's not comfortable for me to read on paper either, but it can be read and it's 300 pages not 600. People are sounding sometimes like it's a blunder the size of 4e. To...
• "Just buy the Free or 1$ version, it's the same thing or better" mantra.

...I'd be thinking about how much free time I'd have if I just stuck to the day job like I'm sure must have gone through Loz and Pete's head at least once the last year or so.

Sure, I'm going aggro, but DAMN, if I were Loz and Pete I'd be like...
View attachment 61624

Whoaa slow down big fella, you'll fall off your horse, you're galloping a bit fast

None of this is about defending the honour of TDM or if Mythras is better or not than Legend

If you track it back I was just saying that sometimes there are things I prefered with Legend, thats all.

The whole 'Legend is Mythras' was a joke meme in response to an offhand comment about a few of us handing our Mythras 'memberships' in.

There's no factions emerging here

I'm not gearing up for a freakin critical analysis, nor do I even need to

Legend and Mythras are similar enough to be viewed as almost interchangable to the average gamer.
The sky is also blue most days.

That's it. It's not an edition war, or an attempt to defame my favourite game writers or whateva this last post of your just exploded about, its like a grenade going off in an empty room Kruegs

There's no point putting any more effort into this one, I'll just say you're possibly right in an argument I never knew existed

There will be other stuff to engage and direct your efforts today, because I'm at work now

 

[Spartan]

Look, don't make me call...

Wow, I did NOT see that coming!