In-Game Divination and its Consequences

[Fenris-77]

So, lots of games have low-stakes divination, the sort where you ask the GM a question and he says yes or no. Some games have more than that, but the thing many of them have in common is that divination is almost always inquiring about answers from the GMs prep. In a standard D&D game this is easy, most DMs have a ton of prep that will answer the questions a player might ask. More specifically, those DMs have both prep and planning (the plot related bits) which makes the divination mechanics easy-peasy. However, there are lots of games, games like PbtA or what have you, that advocate a somewhat prep-less and certainly plan-less approach to GMing. Those games might reasonably have Divination of course, but how that gets handled is a little bit more complicated. PbtA has it's own answer, usually some version of Ask X questions off this list and the Gm will answer which serves to firm up some previously unfirm things about the narrative. That's very cool, but also not what I really want to talk about.

I want to talk about an idea that's a little more out there. What I'm thinking about here are the mystery mechanics in Brindlewood Bay or The Between. These differ from a lot of games in that they are entirely player driven. The players collect evocatively worded clues and at some point they sit down and have a freewheeling discussion about what those clues might mean, followed by a roll. If they make the roll their theory is correct, and if they don't they have to go back out and investigate more. What matters there is that the 'solution' is entirely player driven, the GM doesn't decide how the mystery plays out or what the solution is. I wonder if this could be expanded to divination.

What I'm really talking about here is framing. If we consider this from a Story Now, or PbtA, sort of approach, where the narrative spins out as a series of action-adjudication-consequence loops where consequences snowball, then we have a very different model of what Divination could be. Lets assume for a second that Divination is some close cousin of the mystery mechanics I mentioned above, by which I mean some sort of mechanic by which the players rationalize the existing play state and the information they have to infer things about the way things might or could be. What would that look like?

As the GM in question I have some stuff. I have (lets just give them some common names) threats, I have factions, I have NPCs, and I have narrative consequence spun out of the diegetic frame. What I don't have is a plan or a plot, because that's on the PCs and the results of their diegetic choices. So what the fuck do I do with divination, where the PCs are asking questions about what comes next or how X is related to Y when I specifically don't know that. Complicated! But not impossible. I'm already framing consequence based on wat the fiction demands and all the divination is really asking me to do is to do that somewhat in advance of when I'd normally do it. So I take the information I do have, those same aforementioned items, and allow the players to weave some elements out the same way, just somewhat in advance. The slippery nature of divination is what makes this possible without being unmanageable. Divination isn't precise, its more like dream speak, so the results don't have to be specific or immediate. All those results really need to do is firm up one or more connections between the various items I have on my possibility table (to coin a phrase). To get granular, lets say a given game has some thieves guild stuff, some guild stuff, a handful of (so far) unaligned NPCs, and some overall intrigue narrative direction. That's a lot of parts that could be connected in many ways. Those parts could be connected in a myriad of ways or not at all, and normally I'd sort that out as the players pluck at diegetic stands. It doesn't cost me much (if anything) to allow divination to firm up a connection or two between elements, that would happen anyway. The connections are still all player driven and the results give the unfolding narrative some additional direction.

Anyway, this isn't a system yet, but I think the idea is something that has some juice.

 

[Nobby-W]

So, lots of games have low-stakes divination, the sort where you ask the GM a question and he says yes or no. Some games have more than that, but the thing many of them have in common is that divination is almost always inquiring about answers from the GMs prep. In a standard D&D game this is easy, most DMs have a ton of prep that will answer the questions a player might ask. More specifically, those DMs have both prep and planning (the plot related bits) which makes the divination mechanics easy-peasy. However, there are lots of games, games like PbtA or what have you, that advocate a somewhat prep-less and certainly plan-less approach to GMing. Those games might reasonably have Divination of course, but how that gets handled is a little bit more complicated. PbtA has it's own answer, usually some version of Ask X questions off this list and the Gm will answer which serves to firm up some previously unfirm things about the narrative. That's very cool, but also not what I really want to talk about.

I want to talk about an idea that's a little more out there. What I'm thinking about here are the mystery mechanics in Brindlewood Bay or The Between. These differ from a lot of games in that they are entirely player driven. The players collect evocatively worded clues and at some point they sit down and have a freewheeling discussion about what those clues might mean, followed by a roll. If they make the roll their theory is correct, and if they don't they have to go back out and investigate more. What matters there is that the 'solution' is entirely player driven, the GM doesn't decide how the mystery plays out or what the solution is. I wonder if this could be expanded to divination.

What I'm really talking about here is framing. If we consider this from a Story Now, or PbtA, sort of approach, where the narrative spins out as a series of action-adjudication-consequence loops where consequences snowball, then we have a very different model of what Divination could be. Lets assume for a second that Divination is some close cousin of the mystery mechanics I mentioned above, by which I mean some sort of mechanic by which the players rationalize the existing play state and the information they have to infer things about the way things might or could be. What would that look like?

As the GM in question I have some stuff. I have (lets just give them some common names) threats, I have factions, I have NPCs, and I have narrative consequence spun out of the diegetic frame. What I don't have is a plan or a plot, because that's on the PCs and the results of their diegetic choices. So what the fuck do I do with divination, where the PCs are asking questions about what comes next or how X is related to Y when I specifically don't know that. Complicated! But not impossible. I'm already framing consequence based on wat the fiction demands and all the divination is really asking me to do is to do that somewhat in advance of when I'd normally do it. So I take the information I do have, those same aforementioned items, and allow the players to weave some elements out the same way, just somewhat in advance. The slippery nature of divination is what makes this possible without being unmanageable. Divination isn't precise, its more like dream speak, so the results don't have to be specific or immediate. All those results really need to do is firm up one or more connections between the various items I have on my possibility table (to coin a phrase). To get granular, lets say a given game has some thieves guild stuff, some guild stuff, a handful of (so far) unaligned NPCs, and some overall intrigue narrative direction. That's a lot of parts that could be connected in many ways. Those parts could be connected in a myriad of ways or not at all, and normally I'd sort that out as the players pluck at diegetic stands. It doesn't cost me much (if anything) to allow divination to firm up a connection or two between elements, that would happen anyway. The connections are still all player driven and the results give the unfolding narrative some additional direction.

Anyway, this isn't a system yet, but I think the idea is something that has some juice.

I once thought you could do something similar to flashbacks with divination. If you have a character with some divination ability that comes as a cost (e.g. a time-consuming ritual or some metacurrency cost) then you give a pass to a flashback-like event where you could have some effect or maybe wind back the game a scene or two.

Diviniation could show you the possibilities as well. Maybe you could get an image of the BBEG using one of their abilities or some obstacle, or something one of the other factions might do.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

What I'm really talking about here is framing. If we consider this from a Story Now, or PbtA, sort of approach, where the narrative spins out as a series of action-adjudication-consequence loops where consequences snowball, then we have a very different model of what Divination could be. Lets assume for a second that Divination is some close cousin of the mystery mechanics I mentioned above, by which I mean some sort of mechanic by which the players rationalize the existing play state and the information they have to infer things about the way things might or could be. What would that look like?

I think I'm following you. What it could look like is this:

A player uses Tarot Cards/Spirit Board/Crystal Ball/Mental Images to get a series of impressions/images. Like 5 or 6? Then they try to assemble those into a possible future. Make the roll and there you have it.

It seems like it could give the player some control over the narrative (which may be good or bad) but it really depends on the clues you give them. The Vessel in my Between game used a divination move on the upcoming night in which two players were going to the 1st trial of the Brimstone Society which was in the form of a fancy ball where the candidate would have to break some major social norm as a part of the initiation. All the players knew about the event is that it was "part of the initiation into the society." The Vessel was successful and I said that he saw the player characters at the ball and they were watched closely by a few guests and the one of the player characters was asked by a member of the Brimstone Society to do something to outrage the guests, and he did.

I could have given the following images:

• The two player characters mingling with high society.
• Dancing in elaborate red gowns.
• Music echoing in a cavern.
• Everyone wears red masks, three men were black ones.
• The guests are shocked and some even outraged by one of the player characters

But I think the outcome would have been about the same, right?

I think the Between mechanic works much better with the supernatural and obscure questions versus the mundane. I'm not as familiar with Brindlewood Bay, but Jason Cordova said in the workshop that those clues were much harder to write than the Between's. For divination, you wouldn't know ahead of time when players would use it so you would have to come up with them on the fly. Some better images for the question, "What happens at the Brimstone Society's initiation?" might be:

• A crowd of people
• The color red
• A cavern
• Dancing figures
• Red masks
• Shock and Outrage

Or maybe they roll first and the better they roll, the more images they get.

 

[xanther]

...

As the GM in question I have some stuff. I have (lets just give them some common names) threats, I have factions, I have NPCs, and I have narrative consequence spun out of the diegetic frame. What I don't have is a plan or a plot, because that's on the PCs and the results of their diegetic choices. So what the fuck do I do with divination, where the PCs are asking questions about what comes next or how X is related to Y when I specifically don't know that. Complicated! But not impossible. I'm already framing consequence based on wat the fiction demands and all the divination is really asking me to do is to do that somewhat in advance of when I'd normally do it. .......Divination isn't precise, its more like dream speak, so the results don't have to be specific or immediate. ...... The connections are still all player driven and the results give the unfolding narrative some additional direction.

Anyway, this isn't a system yet, but I think the idea is something that has some juice.

Interesting, looks like player setting control of unfixed setting material via divination. Kind of like they see the future quantum possibilities and collapse the wave function to one.

Many worlds quantum mechanics is more how I approach divination, that is why is is always a bit imprecise the further it gets in the future and the more moving parts there are. Some things like will this mountain be there in 10 days, very likely but imagine if one is powerful enough they can glimpse enough futures to see one tiny, tiny sliver where a meteor wipes it out. As to more practical questions like will we win if we fight the creatures in the next room...I can only give odds and perhaps if they could glimpse such a battle powerful things the other side may bring to bare.

 

[AsenRG]

So, lots of games have low-stakes divination, the sort where you ask the GM a question and he says yes or no. Some games have more than that, but the thing many of them have in common is that divination is almost always inquiring about answers from the GMs prep. In a standard D&D game this is easy, most DMs have a ton of prep that will answer the questions a player might ask. More specifically, those DMs have both prep and planning (the plot related bits) which makes the divination mechanics easy-peasy. However, there are lots of games, games like PbtA or what have you, that advocate a somewhat prep-less and certainly plan-less approach to GMing. Those games might reasonably have Divination of course, but how that gets handled is a little bit more complicated. PbtA has it's own answer, usually some version of Ask X questions off this list and the Gm will answer which serves to firm up some previously unfirm things about the narrative. That's very cool, but also not what I really want to talk about.

I want to talk about an idea that's a little more out there. What I'm thinking about here are the mystery mechanics in Brindlewood Bay or The Between. These differ from a lot of games in that they are entirely player driven. The players collect evocatively worded clues and at some point they sit down and have a freewheeling discussion about what those clues might mean, followed by a roll. If they make the roll their theory is correct, and if they don't they have to go back out and investigate more. What matters there is that the 'solution' is entirely player driven, the GM doesn't decide how the mystery plays out or what the solution is. I wonder if this could be expanded to divination.

Yeah, I know this "solution", except I find it worse than the "cure"...to nobody's surprise, I'm sure.
Though Legends of the Wulin had tampered that to an acceptable compromise, so look into that!

Now, how do I proceed about the divination? Well, I actually ran a BRP game set in China on TBP, and there were some people who attempted to consult a diviner. I think one of them even commented "I am not going to for OOC reasons", to which I replied "it's not a problem for me, but keep in mind diviners are fallible like everyone else".
I think the player expected me to roll a skill check for the diviner. Yeah, good luck with that, but that ain't how this shit goes down in my games...

So what did I do? Why, I copied the text of his question in an "I Ching oracle online" site and rolled a prediction. Then I copied the text, edited it accordingly to my understanding, and posted it as an IC answer.
One of the easiest posts to write in the game. Best of all, the players loved it!

I've also used the same approach with free Tarot predictions online, just in other games. Tarot didn't fit my idea of Ancient China, and I Ching is easily available.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I've also used the same approach with free Tarot predictions online, just in other games. Tarot didn't fit my idea of Ancient China, and I Ching is easily available.

People here might be interested in looking at the Taroka and Dikesha dice systems and props in the Forbidden Lore Boxed set. They provide several different approaches (and they build off of some rudimentary stuff brought up in the black box). Some of the methods lean heavily into what you are describing, where you let the results guide certain aspects of the adventure.

 

[AsenRG]

People here might be interested in looking at the Taroka and Dikesha dice systems and props in the Forbidden Lore Boxed set. They provide several different approaches (and they build off of some rudimentary stuff brought up in the black box). Some of the methods lean heavily into what you are describing, where you let the results guide certain aspects of the adventure.

Ahem, no, I'm NOT describing that! I already knew what is happening, the divination doesn't change that...it's divining the reality, not editing it!

I just tell them the results, no matter what I rolled (OK, it was the site). But when I edit them - because no diviner that wants repeat business would give you just a reading off the page - I edit them in a way that might, possibly, hint at something that's going on behind the scenes.

Let's say my characters had done that in the Delta Green's Lover in the Ice adventure? Example to follow...check the timestamps!

 

[AsenRG]

"Oh Oracle, we were just attacked by a monster, where should we look for the rest of the threat we're tasked to neutralize?"

Original text of the advice:

Wind follows upon wind, wandering the earth, penetrating gently but persistently:
The Superior Person expands his influence by reaffirming his decisions and carrying out his promises."B

Small, persistent, focused effort brings success.
Seek advice from someone you respect.

SITUATION ANALYSIS:

Gentle persuasion is the key in this instance.
Though the words are soft, their speaker must be firm, calm and confident.
Gentle words are worthless if spoken with trepidation.
Wordless influence by example is also effective in this situation.
All persuasion should be almost unfelt, yet consistent and persistent.
Ask for feedback from someone you know to be an effective persuader.

The Divination Master says:
"Persuasion is key, but be firm. It can be wordless as well, and doesn't need to be felt...but the effects are soon to be evident. Decisions already taken and following up on promises is key. Act small, but persistent and focused".
...which actually dovetails nicely with the adventure.
Now whether the players are going to guess it right? No idea. But I can point to them afterwards how it was pertinent. And here's where player skill comes into play.

But, as you can see from the timestamps, I'm fully capable of pulling that in real time...and probably so is anyone!

 

[xanther]

....

Now, how do I proceed about the divination? Well, I actually ran a BRP game set in China on TBP, and there were some people who attempted to consult a diviner. I think one of them even commented "I am not going to for OOC reasons", to which I replied "it's not a problem for me, but keep in mind diviners are fallible like everyone else".
I think the player expected me to roll a skill check for the diviner. Yeah, good luck with that, but that ain't how this shit goes down in my games...

So what did I do? Why, I copied the text of his question in an "I Ching oracle online" site and rolled a prediction. Then I copied the text, edited it accordingly to my understanding, and posted it as an IC answer.
One of the easiest posts to write in the game. Best of all, the players loved it!

....

That is like pure gold! Just love it. I might consult my own Book of Changes, but what have you,

 

[xanther]

One thing I have done on the "will we win the fight" question is to just run the fight to see what happens as a version of the future, fun for all, and win-win.

 

[AsenRG]

That is like pure gold! Just love it. I might consult my own Book of Changes, but what have you,

Thank you!
I would have consulted my Book of Changes as well, but remember, it was PbP...I figured that the online oracle would give me a picture of the hexagram and the text itself, which makes it easier - I just had to edit, not write it all.

But yes, since then, this has become my go-to method for divination!

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Ahem, no, I'm NOT describing that! I already knew what is happening, the divination doesn't change that...it's divining the reality, not editing it!

I just tell them the results, no matter what I rolled (OK, it was the site). But when I edit them - because no diviner that wants repeat business would give you just a reading off the page - I edit them in a way that might, possibly, hint at something that's going on behind the scenes.

Let's say my characters had done that in the Delta Green's Lover in the Ice adventure? Example to follow...check the timestamps!

It did both approaches. They had a bunch of different schools of thought for doing divinations, so you could pick the method that suited your GMing and adventure structure style best

 

[AsenRG]

It did both approaches. They had a bunch of different schools of thought for doing divinations, so you could pick the method that suited your GMing and adventure structure style best

Yeah, I'm just clarifying what it is exactly that I'm doing, and that I found to work well.

 

[xanther]

It did both approaches. They had a bunch of different schools of thought for doing divinations, so you could pick the method that suited your GMing and adventure structure style best

One idea just had is in a game that gives you Fate or Luck type Points, points you can spend to re-roll or change, shift things, perhaps divination could give you one of those for the situation to reflect your fore knowledge.

Then again, to better emulate the consultation of oracles in history, perhaps the PC needs to roll against their Insight, or Wisdom or Riddle Skill etc. to properly understand the prophecy or they get a -1 Luck/Fate Point...

I guess it comes down to do you want divination to be a two edged sword or not.

I tend to make it a positive but also very much curtail and put bounds around it, both mechanically and in setting...that is immortal beings do not like when mere mortals use divination too much.