Irrational Hatreds in RPGs

TristramEvans

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Well that's an innocent attempt. I know a researcher who got funded to run a mathematical study of relationships and the end result was codifying the relationships as abstract spaces (manifolds). His pithy conclusion was that relationships with 12-dimensional spaces work best long term. When I asked if this makes any sense he said my thinking was too orthodox :trigger:

He's since moved on to modelling long term intimacy as photon-electron baths.

EDIT: Looks like it's actually a field now! https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960077906001652#!

lol, reminds me of my advanced microeconomics course last term, where they presented a calculation on a linegraph to determine "societal happiness" as it relates to the supply-demand equilibrium.
 

Faylar

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I think you mis-read my post. The term I used was Prurient, which means 'having an excessive or inappropriate sexual interest.' Much of the discussion of the topic seemed to come from a point of view that assumed that the primary reasons for being interested in the material were prurient in nature. The original author of Monsterhearts has done several interviews where she described the relationship between the material and her experiences of adolescence and nobody involved in the debate seemed to be aware of this, or at least there was no acknowledgement of it until I pointed it out.
Its a game where you roleplay teenagers having sex.
I dont need reasons beyond that to say that it is not in line with my sensibilities.
Full stop.
 

TristramEvans

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I think you mis-read my post. The term I used was Prurient, which means 'having an excessive or inappropriate sexual interest.'
Oh, wow, I did misread that, LMAO!

Well, I'm not sure I'd even consider that a legitimate criticism of anything. Having an excessive interest in something to the point Normies call it "unhealthy" is practically the definition of a geek. I'd draw the line of good taste when it came to kids or animals, but other than that, anything goes. God bless the perverts of the world, because they ain't the ones out there starting wars.

No, I think my impression, or at least a general truism I've found in life - is that people seek out entertainment that contains experiences they aren't getting in life. So I'd be more inclined to believe the people attracted to a game like Monsterhearts aren't getting any IRL, than I would assume they are sex fiends.
 

AsenRG

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This thread reminds me why the PCs in one of my campaigns all had Ride and Athletics skills pretty much maxed out. I didn't see the point of adding Erotic Art* to a campaign with much less skills than GURPS, so I folded it into the above :tongue:!

So those skills went from "waste of points" to "get them as high as you can" status over the course of the session where I first used this houserule. Who knew that our heroes would want to be heroic in bed, too :grin:?

I was threatining them to add Persuasion to the list of corroborated skills for, ahem, specific situations...but the campaign ended before I could do that :devil:.

*I was wandering lately, does the Erotic Art skill get a -3 when used in a real situation :shade:?


Oh, wow, I did misread that, LMAO!

Well, I'm not sure I'd even consider that a legitimate criticism of anything. Having an excessive interest in something to the point Normies call it "unhealthy" is practically the definition of a geek. I'd draw the line of good taste when it came to kids or animals, but other than that, anything goes. God bless the perverts of the world, because they ain't the ones out there starting wars.

No, I think my impression, or at least a general truism I've found in life - is that people seek out entertainment that contains experiences they aren't getting in life. So I'd be more inclined to believe the people attracted to a game like Monsterhearts aren't getting any IRL, than I would assume they are sex fiends.
Whiile I'd be more inclined to believe that the people that aren't getting any IRL would have a high overlap with those that would run like hell from a game like Monsterhearts:thumbsup:.
 

CRKrueger

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All this talk of Math reminds me what makes the Sex Moves in AW so ridiculous. Monsterhearts is someone working through their own sexual identity troubles, what the hell is AW about?

There is no setting at all before the Players create it, so it's like being dropped In Media Res, in this weird, surrealistic alien world, where things are Not Earth, but still Human. Where do these Post-Apocalyptic archetypes even come from? The Sex Moves are a Playbook specific ability, all Angels have the same, all Hardholders have the same. It's ridiculous. AW takes one of the most complex interactions known to humanity, interpersonal intimate/sexual relationships, and makes it a card you play.

It's like someone having a function they run, the whole concept is just bizarre.
 

Magister

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And? Rogues get an precision/anatomical strike misnamed as Sneak Attack. Just cuz a couple of cute little powers say what people want to think does not make the entire class that. Focusing on a single point and ignoring the rest doesn't work.
Rogues are kinda limp if they don't use Sneak Attack. A lot.

5e bards can do all sorts of things - skills, spells, combat - and they all get "Jack of All Trades". Unlike every other class, they choose skills from the entire list, not choosing some number from a restricted list. They don't have to take persuasion or performance (although they do have to be proficient with some musical instruments), let alone ever use those.

Addressing some other complaints about D&D bards: the original bards in Strategic Review were based on the Celtic bards trained by druids and acting as historians and in other formal roles in their society. They are described as following heroes into battle to accurately record their deeds, so presumably they ought to have some hope of defending themselves; the author comments "I have fashioned the character more after the Celtic and Norse types than anything else, thus he is a character who resembles a fighter more than anything else, but who knows something about the mysterious forces of magic and is well adept with his hands, etc." Overly tying a fantasy archetype to a single real world culture is an irrational hatred for me.

My own image of a bard is more that of Orpheus in Greek mythology, whose songs had spell-like effects.
 

EmperorNorton

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I'm honestly not sure why anyone thinks a Bard has to conform to one specific historical concept rather than being its own thing. I mean D&D isn't representing historical facts here.

Plus magical music is a mythological concept that goes back forever. So objecting to bards having magic seems even more odd to me.
 

silva

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All this talk of Math reminds me what makes the Sex Moves in AW so ridiculous. Monsterhearts is someone working through their own sexual identity troubles, what the hell is AW about?

There is no setting at all before the Players create it, so it's like being dropped In Media Res, in this weird, surrealistic alien world, where things are Not Earth, but still Human. Where do these Post-Apocalyptic archetypes even come from? The Sex Moves are a Playbook specific ability, all Angels have the same, all Hardholders have the same. It's ridiculous. AW takes one of the most complex interactions known to humanity, interpersonal intimate/sexual relationships, and makes it a card you play.

It's like someone having a function they run, the whole concept is just bizarre.
I would guess the queer stuff in AW is a combination of: 1. Vincent edginess (for good or bad), 2. his wife Maguey Baker input in the design, and 3. Story-games penchant for fringe themes.
 

AsenRG

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All this talk of Math reminds me what makes the Sex Moves in AW so ridiculous. Monsterhearts is someone working through their own sexual identity troubles, what the hell is AW about?

There is no setting at all before the Players create it, so it's like being dropped In Media Res, in this weird, surrealistic alien world, where things are Not Earth, but still Human. Where do these Post-Apocalyptic archetypes even come from? The Sex Moves are a Playbook specific ability, all Angels have the same, all Hardholders have the same. It's ridiculous. AW takes one of the most complex interactions known to humanity, interpersonal intimate/sexual relationships, and makes it a card you play.

It's like someone having a function they run, the whole concept is just bizarre.
Except the AW tells you explicitly that there be no "other Angels". That's like saying "All The Neos".
Sure, Battle Medics might exist. Some of them might be called angels by the grateful ones. But they're not using the mechanics of The Angel, sex moves included - they're just NPCs, always to be seen through crosshairs.
 

Necrozius

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OH I have another one: lazy art.

Subjective, you say? If your illustrations are:

1. Obviously Poser models traced over or photshopped (it's really easy to spot). Numenera was guilty of this (glad I bought the book used)

2. Obviously copying Mike Mignola's art style (or other famous artist with super unique technique) (there's a particular Dungeon World game designer who does this and I hate it)

3. Using piles and piles of stock photos/art that I've seen used elsewhere (I know, I know, it is convenient and the art can be of great quality... but when your book is ONLY stock imagery I get annoyed at the price point)

4. Digital paintings that have obvious "copy+paste" or "cloning" of elements. Many artists do this: pay special attention to clouds, trees and rubble. Sometimes it is so obvious it hurts.

These ARE somewhat irrational, in case you disagree, haha
 

Stan

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3. Using piles and piles of stock photos/art that I've seen used elsewhere (I know, I know, it is convenient and the art can be of great quality... but when your book is ONLY stock imagery I get annoyed at the price point)
Some products find appropriate old art. But many just stick something on random pages. Those cases don't deserve to be called illustrations as they are not illustrating anything from the words of the page.
 

EmperorNorton

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I tend to give games passes on art depending on the source.

Is it a small self published indie game by one dude? Yeah, sure, it doesn't have to be great. (Kagegami High is a small indie game with honestly garbage art but it somehow uses it well. There are only a couple of images I have a real problem with)

Is it from a big name company that ran a kickstarter that made nearly a million? Please hire a good artist for fucks sake.

Also, I'd be curious which art from Numenera you disliked. I quite liked the art from that game.
 

silva

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On the point of "gamifying intimacy/sex", I think the Persona series do it fairly well through it's confidante system. You can even date some partners (though I don't think it ever reaches sex?).
 

Gabriel

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On the point of "gamifying intimacy/sex", I think the Persona series do it fairly well through it's confidante system. You can even date some partners (though I don't think it ever reaches sex?).
As I understand it, it is of course never explicit. However, it can be reasonably inferred when you max out the links then cutscenes are triggered which can be interpreted as the characters privately doing the nasty.

I'm told that Persona 5 has a relationship tree where you get your teacher to dress up and play maid, and later maid with benefits. I dunno. I gave up because the endless tutorials and the damn cat prevented me from giving a shit about the game.
 

silva

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Don't tell me. I only kept playing Persona 5 because my son insisted. That cat is horrible. The game eventually opens up more and gets good, very good even, but you must endure 2 or 3 castles / around 15 hours until it does so.

I preferred Persona 3 myself.
 

EmperorNorton

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In Persona 4 it is definitely a fade to black screen thing, but if you max out a social link in the romantic path, and beat the december boss before the 22nd, you will get texts from all the ones you have maxed out social link romantic paths with, you then get to choose one of them to go on a Christmas Eve date with.

You end up in your characters room (your Uncle and Niece are not home for story reasons) and you ask them to stay the night. Then it kind of just fades out.

So yeah, pretty clear that in P4 there is definitely some premarital hanky panky. Not sure about P5, that one just kept on dragging out the plot forever.

P3 I can't remember off the top of my head been a long time since I played it. P4 Golden is my favorite by far.

(Also, iirc, with Naoto's Christmas Eve date, it fades to black, it tells you that the watch she gave you (which always indicates the distance between your watch and hers) reads <1m and then you receive her female school uniform.)
 

Necrozius

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Some products find appropriate old art. But many just stick something on random pages. Those cases don't deserve to be called illustrations as they are not illustrating anything from the words of the page.
True. I love old engravings, for example, but “generic fantasy character art that has no direct context or relevance to the surrounding text” gets on my nerves!
 

CRKrueger

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Except the AW tells you explicitly that there be no "other Angels". That's like saying "All The Neos".
Sure, Battle Medics might exist. Some of them might be called angels by the grateful ones. But they're not using the mechanics of The Angel, sex moves included - they're just NPCs, always to be seen through crosshairs.
Ok, so what about every other Playbook? Even if you only allow one of everything, it still means that archetype (which isn't an archetype) always has the same sex move.

It's like a morality play from a culture/religion that doesn't exist.
 

Smith

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Call me old-school but when I play fantasy RPGs I like to keep it low-fantasy at best. Dwarves, Elves, Halflings are the other standard races. Non of this half-planar godlings stuff. Just doesn't do it for me.

I guess being reared on Tolkien is to blame for this, as that is typically my baseline to build off of.
 

CRKrueger

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Call me old-school but when I play fantasy RPGs I like to keep it low-fantasy at best. Dwarves, Elves, Halflings are the other standard races. Non of this half-planar godlings stuff. Just doesn't do it for me.

I guess being reared on Tolkien is to blame for this, as that is typically my baseline to build off of.
Heh, LotR has 5 half-planar Godlings in it. :grin:
I know what you mean, though.
 

Chris Brady

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Call me old-school but when I play fantasy RPGs I like to keep it low-fantasy at best. Dwarves, Elves, Halflings are the other standard races. Non of this half-planar godlings stuff. Just doesn't do it for me.

I guess being reared on Tolkien is to blame for this, as that is typically my baseline to build off of.
Which is ironic, because Gandalf is at least half-planar Godling. :hehe:
 

Smith

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Heh, LotR has 5 half-planar Godlings in it. :grin:
Which is ironic, because Gandalf is at least half-planar Godling. :hehe:
shh

My point is more that when the godlings are here, there and everywhere, they aren't special anymore. There is little weight in revealing that your BBEG is a godling when half of the party are tieflings etc and already have that in their backstory.

If LotR was an RPG, Gandalf is definitely a GMPC!
 

Chris Brady

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shh

My point is more that when the godlings are here, there and everywhere, they aren't special anymore. There is little weight in revealing that your BBEG is a godling when half of the party are tieflings etc and already have that in their backstory.

If LotR was an RPG, Gandalf is definitely a GMPC!
Given that a lot of RPGs have secret Godlings in the setting, I will have to agree, it is irrational. :grin:
 

Edgewise

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My point is more that when the godlings are here, there and everywhere, they aren't special anymore.
I dunno, I used to feel this way but I was charmed by the approach of the Hill Cantons, where old pagan gods are very incarnate and especially unimpressive. I like the idea of gods of the heath that you can actually meet and, on a good day, beat at arm wrestling. What I don't like is the old Deities and Demigods approach where gods are statted out as the ultimate challenge against classic high-level PCs.
 

silva

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Ok, so what about every other Playbook? Even if you only allow one of everything, it still means that archetype (which isn't an archetype) always has the same sex move.

It's like a morality play from a culture/religion that doesn't exist.
I'm not seeing your point. Every Warlock will have Eldritch Blast too, and every Street Samurai will have reflex enhancers. It's a trait of the archetype created by the author.
 

Ostilio

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Ok, so what about every other Playbook? Even if you only allow one of everything, it still means that archetype (which isn't an archetype) always has the same sex move.

It's like a morality play from a culture/religion that doesn't exist.
There is a new religion in the game, actually, and an according playbook.
The psychic maelstrom... y'know.

Crunch wise, in AW there are instructions on how to make custom moves.
 

Gabriel

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I'm not seeing your point. Every Warlock will have Eldritch Blast too, and every Street Samurai will have reflex enhancers. It's a trait of the archetype created by the author.
That reminds me, this is kind of an irrational peeve of mine. It's when there's no mechanical differentiation between characters.

This is probably the main reason why I never did anything with Feng Shui 2 after I got it. I was excited, and then I started reading it. The game seemed really easy to get into, and there were lots of archetypes to choose from, but it seemed like once you picked your archetype you were largely locked in. Two characters of the same archetype were going to be pretty much the same. And that bugged me.

And it shouldn't bug me. If I run this game it's going to be with just one player. The character created will therefore be unique in the scope of our play. So it shouldn't bother me at all that the character would be the same as another character made with the same archetype, because that situation will never come up in practical play for me.

But it does bug me. Same issue with D&D and other games where you have classes/archetypes and not any real mechanical differentiation.
 
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