Is Anyone Still Playing Vampire 5th Edition?

[Séadna]

V5 felt absurd in its assumptions of post-Gehenna

I never really play "in canon" but in V5 Gehenna never happened. It's a looser game that doesn't really follow much of the older metaplot.

EDIT: This is totally wrong see Black Leaf below.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I never really play "in canon" but in V5 Gehenna never happened. It's a looser game that doesn't really follow much of the older metaplot.

Technically the events in the Gehenna metaplot still happened, it just fizzled out.

 

[Séadna]

Technically the events in the Gehenna metaplot still happened, it just fizzled out.

Wow! Okay reading up on it now it seems way more complicated than I thought with a long list of what did/didn't happen and what sort of happened but differently to what the old books said. There's even Onyx Path contradicting Paradox (sort of?) for example with the Ravnos antediluvian.

Thanks

 

[AsenRG]

If so, how has the system held up over longterm play?

What new supplements have come out, and how is the game line proceeding with Hite's departure?

"Still"? Some groups I know are playing it exclusively. Obviously works just fine for them, not sure what supplements, if any, they're using.

 

[KrakaJak]

I ran a campaign last year that petered out. I played in the starter demo campaign about a month ago. I really like the game, and I hope I get more opportunities to play. I can't imagine the inconsistent management of the RPG has done a lot to help a community grow for it.

 

[opaopajr]

I always wanted to play a Kiasyd. That's probably the only thing that would entice me to play in a Vampire game of any edition these days

(except Vampire: The Dark Ages. I'd play the hell out of that one any chance)

Paradox publisher has a video game mod for Crusader Kings II integrating Vampire: Dark Ages, just released this year. It is supposed to integrate other splats in the future such as Changeling: Dark Ages. So you will eventually have medieval creatures of the night controlling territory and waging war. A medieval Changeling v. Vampire 4Xstrategy mash-up is ever so close!

... but it's not a ttpg.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Paradox publisher has a video game mod for Crusader Kings II integrating Vampire: Dark Ages, just released this year. It is supposed to integrate other splats in the future such as Changeling: Dark Ages. So you will eventually have medieval creatures of the night controlling territory and waging war. A medieval Changeling v. Vampire 4Xstrategy mash-up is ever so close!

... but it's not a ttpg.

Those games are so mind bendingly complicated, i couldn't even manage the tutorial!

 

[TristramEvans]

Paradox publisher has a video game mod for Crusader Kings II integrating Vampire: Dark Ages, just released this year. It is supposed to integrate other splats in the future such as Changeling: Dark Ages. So you will eventually have medieval creatures of the night controlling territory and waging war. A medieval Changeling v. Vampire 4Xstrategy mash-up is ever so close!

... but it's not a ttpg.

 

[Rogerdee]

I thought V5 was the most recent iteration?
Why would people not use it? What am i missing?

 

[Lessa]

I thought V5 was the most recent iteration?
Why would people not use it? What am i missing?

A part of the game community didn't like the changes in the setting and rules.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

I thought V5 was the most recent iteration?
Why would people not use it? What am i missing?

Why do people play OSR games instead of D&D 5e? Sometimes an older game just speaks to you in a way that a newer game doesn't.

Having just finished Vampyr on PS4, I'm tempted to run a Vampire game of some sort. Not sure if I could sell my group on it (enthusiastically, anyway).

 

[TristramEvans]

I thought V5 was the most recent iteration?
Why would people not use it? What am i missing?

Usually when games are popular, they get quite a bit of discussion, but of all the various outlets concerning RPGs I'm tapped into, theres been complete silence for the last year or so. So, that may be because it's simply being discussed elsewhere, or it could be the game is dead in the water after the original author was fired shortly after release, or it could simply be the game was not enough of a financial success that support has died early, etc. Hence the thread's question.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I do wonder if Vampire's time has passed regardless of edition, a few holdout LARPers not withstanding. It was very much a "lightning in a bottle" moment that's impossible to recapture.

Nostalgia is weird enough. Nostalgia for someone else's youth even more so.

 

[TristramEvans]

Well, I don't think Vampire could ever match the popularity it had in the 90s, it was riding the zeitgeist at that time. But that doesn't necessarily mean it can't still be successful in "normal" hobby terms. I expected the revitalization of Hite's revamp of the system to better model the game's original intentions to garner a bit of attention.

 

[Lessa]

I do wonder if Vampire's time has passed regardless of edition, a few holdout LARPers not withstanding. It was very much a "lightning in a bottle" moment that's impossible to recapture.

Good point. In my circles it kinda did yes. Me and a couple friends liked the new edition and it's ideas but I don't see the enthusiasm to try it, much less the hype we had 2 decades ago.

At the same time, Thousand Year Old Vampire is firmly on my queue to try, and we played a short campaign of Undying last year that was great. So I think I'm just tired of Masquerades and Camarillas and all that White Wolf stuff, but open to new takes on the trope.

 

[Trippy]

Usually when games are popular, they get quite a bit of discussion, but of all the various outlets concerning RPGs I'm tapped into, theres been complete silence for the last year or so. So, that may be because it's simply being discussed elsewhere, or it could be the game is dead in the water after the original author was fired shortly after release, or it could simply be the game was not enough of a financial success that support has died early, etc. Hence the thread's question.

I think the main thing is there has been a re-arrangement at the top in terms of how Paradox wants the game to move forward - and the main upshot is that Modiphius isn’t really going to get involved much after this point. The appointment (re-appointment?) of Justin Achilli (and the rest of the appointments) signifies that the game development will be more in-house, and there is actually a large amount of support still coming from The Onyx Path. Indeed, on their website, there has been a lot of discussion.

In terms of the game ‘passing’, it is still a pretty big license for video games and that will be a major driving force moving forward. It should be noted that Bloodlines 2 (which will probably generate a lot more revenue than the tabletop game) was also delayed this year. V5 was a pretty big hit in RPG retail terms, but the numbers dropped off when supplements failed to materialize quickly. I think that aspect will change in the next year or so - along with the new edition of Werewolf: The Apocalypse - so the train looks back on the track. I’m not sure that White Wolf is really a thing anymore, and certainly not compared to what it was in the 1990s, but I doubt you will see an iconic title like Vampire: The Masquerade disappear anytime soon.

 

[TristramEvans]

OK, can anyone explain the difference/relationship between Paradox, Modiphius, and Onyx Path?

 

[Voros]

Usually when games are popular, they get quite a bit of discussion, but of all the various outlets concerning RPGs I'm tapped into, theres been complete silence for the last year or so. So, that may be because it's simply being discussed elsewhere, or it could be the game is dead in the water after the original author was fired shortly after release, or it could simply be the game was not enough of a financial success that support has died early, etc. Hence the thread's question.

I've seen a fair bit of talk about the Onyx V5 releases among those who are fans of Onyx. There have even been a few threads here on them.

TBP has gone off its advocacy of Onyx and V5 is practically verboten there for a host of reasons that we can't probably discuss here which may give the impression it is more 'dead' than it is in reality.

Really the only places Vampire was particularly discussed online in my experience was TBP and the Onyx forums. There could be a more active community these days on Discord (where Storygamers and the younger OSR are for instance) or the like, I haven't checked.

But I think Onyx is all about catering to the small, dedicated but shrinking WoD fanbase via targeted Kickstarters and the like. As some of us discussed here once V5 was largely handed to Onyx at least in the shorterm there was a clear likelihood the game would return to the sombulent state it was in before V5 was released.

Modiphius' plans for a series of cool-sounding releases seems to have been delayed due to COVID or other reasons, that also has led to some loss in momentum.

I'd wait for those Modiphius releases to come out and tank or be cancelled altogether before I'd write the edition off entirely. As 5e D&D has shown sometimes a slower release schedule in today's rpg market can make sense and lead to a longer tail.

 

[Trippy]

OK, can anyone explain the difference/relationship between Paradox, Modiphius, and Onyx Path?

Paradox Entertainment bought White Wolf which had previously been sold to CCP, and now own all the licenses. They dissolved the previous White Wolf team after controversies, but have since built a new team. There are plans to release new books via licensees as well as through Renegade Studios (who did Kids on Bikes).

Modiphius were a publisher/distributer of Vampire: The Masquerade 5th edition, and took over the license to continue the line when the previous White Wolf team dissolved. They did so, presumably, because V5 was their best selling product at the time - but they didn’t really fulfill their development plan, with only one new book developed (The Fall of London) over the last year or so. They were supposed to produce a Starter Box, but this went straight to PDF which was a signifier that something was stalling a bit at the time, and they were also due to release a Player’s Guide, The Second Inquisition book and also a miniature line - none have happened. I think they are basically ex-licensees at this point, although I’d have to work hard to find an official statement on the matter.

Onyx Path are a company of ex-White Wolf staffers who formed their own company after the White Wolf company was sold on a decade ago. They are licensees to produce V5 material and have actually been quite prolific with Chicago by Night, The Chicago Folios, Let the Streets Run Red, the upcoming Cults of the Blood Gods and several other books in the pipeline.

 

[Rogerdee]

A part of the game community didn't like the changes in the setting and rules.

what were, briefly, the changes in the rules?

 

[Voros]

what were, briefly, the changes in the rules?

Largely streamlined, more modular so you could go lighter or crunchier based on one's preference: e.g. a one roll combat system or a more detailed combat system with initiative etc. (default is no initiative).

The most significant change was the introduction of hunger dice, indicative of one's blood, the more one expends blood to perform certain actions the hunger dice are added to your pool whenever you roll for an action the hunger dice could cause you to lose control and lash out or even go on a bloody rampage.

It was 'controversial' with some because it essentially 'forced' the idea that being a vampire meant you were a dangerous monster. Many others liked it for that exact reason and found it a neat mechanic.

There are some other changes to powers that stirred up some of the hardcores that put me to sleep, like when people go off on extended Feat discussions in 3e and 4e D&D.

Also some lore changes that as always enrage the hardcore and befuddle everyone else.

 

[Trippy]

what were, briefly, the changes in the rules?

This will take a deep breath....

The game was fully redeveloped from the 1st edition premise - including a new look as well, which some fans found jarring.

In terms of the rules, the main thing was that they tried to scale back from the broad urban fantasy that had evolved through a vast amount of supplements and resultant editions over 20-25+ years or so. The game, as with the original edition, sought to present the game as being about playing monsters, not just high powered individuals who happen to drink blood as an aside.

The most iconic rule change, therefore, was the introduction of Hunger Dice. Rather than simply having a pool of Blood Points that could be spent to power Disciplines, vampires would accumulate Hunger Dice which could also be accrued just by rousing. Indeed, various Disciplines makes you make a Rouse check (50/50 chance) to see if you accumulate Hunger. The upshot is that these Hunger Dice are included in every dice-pool your character rolls. For the most part, they are read in the same way as normal dice, but if they roll a critical or botch, you get a 'Messy Critical’ or 'Bestial Failure’ respectively - which can lead to Compulsions. Compulsions are differentiated by situation or type of Vampire. The impact can be interpreted by the ST, but it means the players are constantly reminded of their vampiric condition in gameplay.

In addition to this, a lot of systems were re-polished and redone. The basic mechanic is similar, but each D10 dice has a fixed target (6), while the Difficulty (1-5) is based on how many successes are required. Diceless play is re-emphasised as an option and made to work more seamlessly - you just ’take half’ the number of dice in your pool and compare it to the Difficulty. Depending on your groups style of play, there is no need to roll dice at all with this game. There are some re-jigging/re-organising of Attributes and Skills, and clarifications of uses - although it is still recognisable in some respects. Characters are still organized into Clans, although you also could play Thin-Bloods now.

Nature & Demeanor are no longer used. Characters are defined by their Predator type (how they actually go about maintaining their blood diet), and characters have Ambitions and Desires to drive their characters. Characters also have Convictions (values that maintain their humanity) and Touchstones (mortals who maintain their humanity).

Sub-systems like combat are highly streamlined, with options to make them more strategic or detailed, but Social and Mental Conflict are determined at the same degree of complexity and involvement. Disciplines are more consolidated, to avoid rules bloat.

 

[The Butcher]

Somehow gave V5 a miss. Not out of spite or anything, my (increasingly limited) gaming attention was just elsewhere.

I was an enthusiastic convert to the nWoD as it came out, but ended up never running it and only playing a couple of times. When V20, and later the first few second editions of the nWoD (now CoD) game lines came out I looked into them, but again, I was busy running and playing other things and ended up never slotting these games in our rotation.

There is one urban fantasy game I have a pretty good grasp of what I’d like to do and that is Mage: the Awakening, and that’s because the game’s cosmology and themes both appeal to me on several levels. But I never get around to it because the magic system inti

And I am very, very confident of my ability to set up a Vampire (Masquerade or Requiem) urban sandbox. Seriously. Comes to me easier than a D&D dungeon or a CoC monster-of-the-week whodunnit, both fluff and crunch.

But other than Awakening, I don’t see myself running anything urban fantasy these days. Can’t say why but there it is.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Urban Fantasy does seem a bit out of fashion these days. I really liked Urban Armies 3e but it got a lot less attention then I expected.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I think the main thing is there has been a re-arrangement at the top in terms of how Paradox wants the game to move forward - and the main upshot is that Modiphius isn’t really going to get involved much after this point. The appointment (re-appointment?) of Justin Achilli (and the rest of the appointments) signifies that the game development will be more in-house, and there is actually a large amount of support still coming from The Onyx Path. Indeed, on their website, there has been a lot of discussion.

In terms of the game ‘passing’, it is still a pretty big license for video games and that will be a major driving force moving forward. It should be noted that Bloodlines 2 (which will probably generate a lot more revenue than the tabletop game) was also delayed this year. V5 was a pretty big hit in RPG retail terms, but the numbers dropped off when supplements failed to materialize quickly. I think that aspect will change in the next year or so - along with the new edition of Werewolf: The Apocalypse - so the train looks back on the track. I’m not sure that White Wolf is really a thing anymore, and certainly not compared to what it was in the 1990s, but I doubt you will see an iconic title like Vampire: The Masquerade disappear anytime soon.

It'll be interesting to see if the video game has a knock-on effect on the once mighty Vampire LARP scene.

I don't know the US scene so well. But in Europe at least, it's a shadow of what it once was. A handful of stalwarts hold out, but the days of a Vampire game in every university town are long gone. And even the games there are frequently fold due to lack of players. A lot of the old guard have jumped to either one of the more RP focused fest events or freeform/parlour LARP. And there's not much influx of newbies.

I do think that one's partly mismanagement.

Convention of Thorns was great as a spectacular event, but it was never going to be more than that, for reasons of cost alone. White Wolf seemed to not understand that the small local games have always been the backbone of Vampire LARP and failed to give any support or even recognition.

 

[Séadna]

But in Europe at least, it's a shadow of what it once was

Yeah I remember back in the 2000s it was massive in every major university across the continent, especially Germany and the Nordic countries.

For a lot of younger players here who found RPGs via D&D 5E a large enough cohort move on to other games since as their tastes evolve they find it doesn't have exactly what they want. Vampire seems to be the most popular game to settle around after D&D. I don't know how much that's taking place in VtM's old mainstay countries, but with the computer game coming you never know.

 

[Trippy]

The 2000s were a couple of decades ago, now, and White Wolf essentially stopped producing retail games at the end of that decade. The Onyx Path was successful in running Kickstarters and maintaining the line, without really expanding their market. V5 came out a couple of years ago - was a retail success - but has had limited supplementary support. Since this point, The Onyx Path has changed its policy regarding actual retail releases and Paradox has restructured the WoD development team - with a plan moving forward. Trends come and go but Vampire: The Masquerade remains an iconic game in gaming communities and WoD is a well recognized brand. Let's see how they do, moving forward into the 2020s.

 

[TristramEvans]

Nature & Demeanor are no longer used.

That's the only change I'm saddened by. I really liked Nature and Demeanor in general as an alignment substitute and succinct way of defining a character's basic personality/motivation. I just think it needed to be tied into the overall system better

 

[Trippy]

That's the only change I'm saddened by. I really liked Nature and Demeanor in general as an alignment substitute and succinct way of defining a character's basic personality/motivation. I just think it needed to be tied into the overall system better

I miss it as well, to be sure - I liked the fact that having a Demeanor to hide one’s inner Nature went along with the theme of a ‘masquerade’.

What is there in it’s place is Convictions, Ambitions and Desires and to a degree, Touchstones although this doesn’t directly correspond. Ambitions (long term goals to boost Will Power) and Desires (short term goals to boost Willpower) are pretty open and freeform, so you could take some Nature/Demeanour concepts and convert them - or possibly just replace them wholesale. You just need to note that your Convictions (belief statements), which are are tied in with Touchstones (people who help retain your Humanity) might conflict with the use of Nature/Demeanor.

 

[Halda]

For me the way they have put the various splats in sourcebooks as turned me off it. As a player and GM from way back I usually ignore a bunch of the WW metaplot, but I do like to be able to play around with the various clans. I was hopeing that the players Guide would put them all in one place, but alas it is just the "missing ones".

The worse case for me was the Lasombra who were pit in Chicago by Night, a book which I only have passing interest at best in (really just to see the changes from the 1st/2nd ed books).

 

[Trippy]

For me the way they have put the various splats in sourcebooks as turned me off it. As a player and GM from way back I usually ignore a bunch of the WW metaplot, but I do like to be able to play around with the various clans. I was hopeing that the players Guide would put them all in one place, but alas it is just the "missing ones".

The worse case for me was the Lasombra who were pit in Chicago by Night, a book which I only have passing interest at best in (really just to see the changes from the 1st/2nd ed books).

I think there was a problem with cross-purposes between Modiphius and The Onyx Path on this, but I am not in the know.

I do know that Modiphius had planned to do a Players Guide for Vampire, which was mooted to detail all the extra Clans in it, but it never was released. In the case of the Lasombra, I think that the writers of Chicago by Night just felt that the Clan detail was essential to the background of the setting. In the case of the Hecate, I actually think they have developed really well within the context of Cults for the Blood Gods, and I’m not sure they could have been done full justice outside of the rest of the material in that book.

Since White Wolf/Paradox took Vampire and the rest of the WoD back in house, they released a free Vampire Companion detailing the remaining Clans. There has been no detail yet to the question about whether these Clans may all yet make some other book so they are all in hardcopy someplace.

I’m not strongly minded that all of the Clans were necessary in the core rules. They weren’t in the first two editions, and I do feel some of them are better served in the game with a cloud of mystery surrounding them. My preference would have been to include the Lasombra in the Camarilla book, and maybe the Tzmisce in the Anarch book, seeing as they have joined those groups apparently (or have they?). There is mooted now to be Sabbat book in the works again, so who knows...

 

[TristramEvans]

Have the Kiasyd showed up again yet?

 

[Trippy]

Have the Kiasyd showed up again yet?

Not yet. Salubri have along with the 13 Clans. Clan Hecate incorporates Giovanni and Cappadocian.

 

[TristramEvans]

Not yet. Salubri have along with the 13 Clans. Clan Hecate incorporates Giovanni and Cappadocian.

Salubri were extinct in the original game weren't they? IIRC they only appeared in the Dark Ages?

 

[Halda]

Salubri were extinct in the original game weren't they? IIRC they only appeared in the Dark Ages?

There were meant to be 7 left over, when they sire and after they have passed their knowledge on they allow their child to devour them. Then a bunch appeared in the Sabbat.

 

[CRKrueger]

This will take a deep breath....

The game was fully redeveloped from the 1st edition premise - including a new look as well, which some fans found jarring.

In terms of the rules, the main thing was that they tried to scale back from the broad urban fantasy that had evolved through a vast amount of supplements and resultant editions over 20-25+ years or so. The game, as with the original edition, sought to present the game as being about playing monsters, not just high powered individuals who happen to drink blood as an aside.

The most iconic rule change, therefore, was the introduction of Hunger Dice. Rather than simply having a pool of Blood Points that could be spent to power Disciplines, vampires would accumulate Hunger Dice which could also be accrued just by rousing. Indeed, various Disciplines makes you make a Rouse check (50/50 chance) to see if you accumulate Hunger. The upshot is that these Hunger Dice are included in every dice-pool your character rolls. For the most part, they are read in the same way as normal dice, but if they roll a critical or botch, you get a 'Messy Critical’ or 'Bestial Failure’ respectively - which can lead to Compulsions. Compulsions are differentiated by situation or type of Vampire. The impact can be interpreted by the ST, but it means the players are constantly reminded of their vampiric condition in gameplay.

In addition to this, a lot of systems were re-polished and redone. The basic mechanic is similar, but each D10 dice has a fixed target (6), while the Difficulty (1-5) is based on how many successes are required. Diceless play is re-emphasised as an option and made to work more seamlessly - you just ’take half’ the number of dice in your pool and compare it to the Difficulty. Depending on your groups style of play, there is no need to roll dice at all with this game. There are some re-jigging/re-organising of Attributes and Skills, and clarifications of uses - although it is still recognisable in some respects. Characters are still organized into Clans, although you also could play Thin-Bloods now.

Nature & Demeanor are no longer used. Characters are defined by their Predator type (how they actually go about maintaining their blood diet), and characters have Ambitions and Desires to drive their characters. Characters also have Convictions (values that maintain their humanity) and Touchstones (mortals who maintain their humanity).

Sub-systems like combat are highly streamlined, with options to make them more strategic or detailed, but Social and Mental Conflict are determined at the same degree of complexity and involvement. Disciplines are more consolidated, to avoid rules bloat.

So how do you play Sabbat in V5, who have no interest in keeping their Humanity?

 

[Trippy]

Salubri were extinct in the original game weren't they? IIRC they only appeared in the Dark Ages?

They have, mythically, seven members hidden somewhere - but yes, after some clarification, they are still basically an ex-Clan, conquered by the Tremere.

Although, they make an excellent plot hook - I am working on a scenario, akin to Children of Men, where the PCs are charged with smuggling a vulnerable Salubri across a road trip chronicle in order to deliver the hope of some sort of Golconda for a patreon. They make an excellent macguffin because, essentially everybody wants a piece of them (literally).

 

[Trippy]

So how do you play Sabbat in V5, who have no interest in keeping their Humanity?

Currently, the Sabbat are just in the background without much detail. The main associated Clans - Lasombra and Tzmisce - have been detailed, but are still assumed to be rated on their Humanity, even if their scores may potentially be quite low. Technically, Lasombra are now mostly part of the Camarilla, while Tzmisce are partially linked to the Anarchs. Not all vampires care about hanging on to their Humanity, of course - its just low Humanity makes their (un)lives a bit more complicated when trying to exist among mortal society. When they eventually get round to a nw Sabbat book, which has been mooted now, they may also start detailing alternative paths again, I guess.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

I always wanted to play a Kiasyd. That's probably the only thing that would entice me to play in a Vampire game of any edition these days

Out of curiosity, what would this character be like?

 

[Trippy]

Out of curiosity, what would this character be like?

Seven foot tall, albino - very polite and sedate.