Jon Peterson's Game Wizards - The Epic Battle for D&D

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Of course, we could just email Ian Livingstone. He's a friendly chap and once gave me an "official commendation" on social media for not cheating at Fighting Fantasy.

 

[TristramEvans]

I don't think the cover came before Ditko's redesigns. Cover's usually happen after the interior artwork is done.

Well, I'm just going what I heard from people there at the time, the same as Eveniar, and the design sketches I've seen over the year showing the evolution of the costume on the cover image. We have no way to know for certain, especially with every party involve having different stories, and all of them having passed away. But covers were frequently done before the stories in comics, especially anthology comics. This is one of the reasons the comic themselves often contradicted the "hook" that the cover image showed to draw in audiences.

 

[Endless Flight]

I actually would believe that other drawing was one of Kirby’s first passes at the costume. Looks like Captain America and Spider-Man mixed together.

 

[robertsconley]

So I finished the books. Boy 1985 was a shitshow and like the rest of the book the story is nuanced. 1985 was the year of Ambush at Sheridan Spring and Gygax losing control of the company.

Takeaways

• Gygax ignored opportunities to take control although each situation was nuanced. Telling is the fact he felt he could buy out enough of the Blume shares to take control when he became aware of the takeover attempt. But couldn't be bother to do it early in the year when it was offered.
• Lorriane Williams came off better than I think she would have. Basically even if Gygax took control, the banks were breathing down TSR's neck. Lorraine William seemed to be primarily motivated to knock TSR away from it path to bankruptcy. And that she was working with a team of outsiders trying to get TSR out of the hole it was buried in.
• If there a villain in the story it is the Blume. Whatever Gygax excesses did, it was dwarfed by what the Blumes did. Ultimately the debt and the shit show it causes was a legacy of their action. Gygax didn't always help the situation. But it was clear whatever his faults were Gygax was ultimately not interested in running a multi-million dollar corporation. He was basically a creative type and that where he was happiest.

So did Arneson and Gygax get to speak for themselves?
I browsed through the list of sources organized by chapter and I have to say yes. The caveat is that there is obviously more material to be unearthed. Which to his credit Jon Peterson talks about. I was left with the impression he felt this work will be superseded by other in the coming years as more material is available.

The main source of criticism is relying exclusively on written source and not incorporating oral sources. The sources are littered with material taken from personal letters from Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. I didn't do exact count but it is enough that I think any criticism that it doesn't include oral sources it unwarranted. Personal letters are about as close we are going to get to a unvarnished account from either gentlemen as opposed to recollections made decades later.

But again there going to have to be another book because eventually there will be more letters and materials unearthed written by the two to others or perhaps their own notes. When that happen then the picture painted by Game Wizards will have to be revised.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I think the Blumes were responsible for the "assets, not liabilities" stuff with SPI? If so, while legal, that's a really good way to have alienated the wargamers away from D&D. (Especially as it was the sudden calling in of the promissory note that lead to SPI collapsing in the first place. I think evidence there points towards TSR/the Blumes deliberately and dishonestly forcing SPI into bankruptcy)

 

[TristramEvans]

The story I heard is that the Blumes just wanted out, and wanted Gary to buy them out, and he ignored it and procrastinated until they finally had enough. That doesn't really make them villains in my mind.

 

[robertsconley]

I think the Blumes were responsible for the "assets, not liabilities" stuff with SPI? If so, while legal, that's a really good way to have alienated the wargamers away from D&D. (Especially as it was the sudden calling in of the promissory note that lead to SPI collapsing in the first place. I think evidence there points towards TSR/the Blumes deliberately and dishonestly forcing SPI into bankruptcy)

That too is nuanced. Although from the outside it looked like TSR were the villains. What happened is a combination of the Blumes/TSR not doing their due diligence in extend SPI a loan. And SPI understating their liabilities in order to get that loan. So when TSR got in there they found the situation to be very bad and not salvageable. So the only thing they could do to avoid a total loss was to call the loan which was backed by SPI IP and assets.

But if you are going to do that, then don't do what the Blume decided to do after they got SPI's assets.

 

[TristramEvans]

There's a retroclone "Adventures Dark and Deep" that tries to reconstruct Gygax's 2E:

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

heh, I was googling that and found that Jennifer Aniston wrote a review about it.

In it she expresses extreme annoyance at games like this and Mazes & Monsters that try to present "alternate history" versions of games because she apparently feels that such games "put on airs" and come across like the author engaged in real scholarship.

I guess that would be threatening to someone who mainly just cut and pastes Wikipedia entries and slaps them onto D&D clones...

 

[Bunch]

I think the Blumes were responsible for the "assets, not liabilities" stuff with SPI? If so, while legal, that's a really good way to have alienated the wargamers away from D&D. (Especially as it was the sudden calling in of the promissory note that lead to SPI collapsing in the first place. I think evidence there points towards TSR/the Blumes deliberately and dishonestly forcing SPI into bankruptcy)

That's a bit nuanced too. They do have a duty to shareholders too. So if the liabilities harm the company to such an extent making those debt holder whole won't add value to the company they have a case that they shouldn't do that. It could be portrayed as TSR being nice and SPI abusing that to get money. Realistically if API was in dire straights they would go under without the loan and none of the liabilities would get paid out anyway.

 

[xanther]

Nuanced? All this is reinforcing my impression that none of the decision makers were very good at business...be it due diligence, accounting, supply chain, market understanding, etc. Really to be expected from a start up that explodes beyond the business abilities of the founders...and like many others the very necessary confidence and ego needed to take something form an idea to a business gets in their way of recognizing their limitations in the business realm.

Also in my view, it was really the explosive wave of D&D growth that allowed and covered up the mismanagement. TSR confused the game selling itself into a market that did not exist prior and thus no competition; with they having some great business acumen.

I still think it was a crappy, even if legal, move on how TSR dropped all of the SPI obligations to customers without delay.

 

[T. Foster]

The story I heard is that the Blumes just wanted out, and wanted Gary to buy them out, and he ignored it and procrastinated until they finally had enough. That doesn't really make them villains in my mind.

That goes back to the rumor I cited early in this thread, that Gygax couldn’t buy the Blumes out because his personal assets were tied up in his divorce proceeding (and that LW knew that which is why she moved when she did). TSR couldn’t buy the stock because their bank wouldn’t approve the expenditure; Gygax wanted to but (if this version of the story is believed) also couldn’t because his assets were tied up. So LW swooped in and outmaneuvered him (including some possibly-shady stuff like approving the stock sale to herself in lieu of Gygax who would normally have had to approve it as President of TSR, although he had delegated to her authority to act on his behalf in other matters).

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Nuanced? All this is reinforcing my impression that none of the decision makers were very good at business...be it due diligence, accounting, supply chain, market understanding, etc. Really to be expected from a start up that explodes beyond the business abilities of the founders...and like many others the very necessary confidence and ego needed to take something form an idea to a business gets in their way of recognizing their limitations in the business realm.

Also in my view, it was really the explosive wave of D&D growth that allowed and covered up the mismanagement. TSR confused the game selling itself into a market that did not exist prior and thus no competition; with they having some great business acumen.

I still think it was a crappy, even if legal, move on how TSR dropped all of the SPI obligations to customers without delay.

I drew the analogy with Steve Jackson (US earlier) and it is interesting to compare.

SJG's diversification was a lot more focused (all game related) and it's notable that they've always been a privately held company. Also interesting to observe that unlike other companies their Kickstarter games seem to go reasonably well.

I dread to think the mess TSR would have made if Kickstarter had been a thing back there. Palladium levels of bad.

 

[Endless Flight]

We don’t do nuanced in the RPG fandom. It’s cut and dried. Good vs Eeeeeeeevil. One must be the hero and the other must be the villain!

 

[Bunch]

We don’t do nuanced in the RPG fandom. It’s cut and dried. Good vs Eeeeeeeevil. One must be the hero and the other must be the villain!

Unacceptable!! Someone get a stake and kindling. We got a burning to attend to!

 

[TristramEvans]

We don’t do nuanced in the RPG fandom. It’s cut and dried. Good vs Eeeeeeeevil. One must be the hero and the other must be the villain!

We're kinda like pro Wrestlers in that regard

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

But what, what's this? It's Lorraine Williams with a steel chair!

 

[Sosthenes]

We're kinda like pro Wrestlers in that regard

We rarely have heel-face turns, though.

 

[TristramEvans]

We rarely have heel-face turns, though.

Probably because we don't record promo videos for The Pub. We should rectify that

 

[Endless Flight]

But what, what's this? It's Lorraine Williams with a steel chair!

After Williams has sent Gygax reeling from her vicious assault, it now looks like the Blume Brothers are making their way to the ring after hiding backstage! It’s total chaos!

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

"Gygax has tagged in Lorraine to help him against the Blume Brothers. But wait! She's turning on Gygax! This is the event of the season!"

 

[Warthur]

Lorriane Williams came off better than I think she would have. Basically even if Gygax took control, the banks were breathing down TSR's neck. Lorraine William seemed to be primarily motivated to knock TSR away from it path to bankruptcy. And that she was working with a team of outsiders trying to get TSR out of the hole it was buried in.

Finished reading myself (my review is here for those who are interested) but I agree that Williams came off better than she usually does in discussions of TSR history.

In particular, Peterson substantiates how, after a period when TSR were suffering a streak of annual losses and after a period when they were apparently looking for an outside investor, Gary then did some restructuring to recentralise control under himself... and then the main bank TSR was doing business with suddenly reduced TSR's line of credit (slashing it to $5 million when it had been over $10 million). Given that TSR was bleeding money whilst Gary was living it up on a $10,000/month rented ranch on the West Coast trying to court Hollywood, you can see why the bank would be nervous about Gary having more power, and you can also see why other executives would look at that chain of events and interpret it as a vote of no-confidence in Gary from the bank - and if the company needs that line of credit to stay afloat, it then becomes a question of either Gary loses his job, or everyone loses their job.

Pretty much everything people criticise Williams for in her subsequent management of the company is essentially the continuation of trends which were well in place before she showed up, and keeping TSR alive for another 12 years was good going when the company was rapidly going down the toilet when she took over.

(I also thought the situation with Rose Estes was absolutely wild. Apparently, the Endless Quest series was a mega-success for TSR, accounting for a fat chunk of revenue - as in over one in seven dollars TSR earned in 1983 can be attributed directly to Rose's work - but then they stiffed her on her stock options and wouldn't come to terms on any sort of alternate compensation package... so she quit and filed a lawsuit against them. There's killing the goose that laid the golden egg, and then there's pissing off the goose and daring it to do something about it.)

As far as the "only written sources" thing goes - frankly, I don't think that criticism is merited. We are not talking about a situation where the non-written history is necessarily going to be all that much more compelling on an evidentiary basis than the written sources, especially since a lot of the oral history people are upset about Peterson leaving out is stuff done years or even decades after the fact and the written sources were jotted down at the time. And for this business-oriented stuff, you'd expect most of the important things to be written down in some form or other - and if it isn't, the gap in the documentation is notable in its own right.

On top of that, Peterson shows how Arneson's on-the-record statements about the design process of D&D shifted about here and there, depending on what he was trying to accomplish at the time, as indeed Gygax's did later.

Ultimately, even if you take personal agendas out of the equation (which would be a mistake given how many emotive grudges were involved in the story), human memory is in fact far more mutable than ink on paper. If the written record from the time period says one thing and someone's oral recollections say something different, the obvious next question is "Why was it written down incorrectly at the time?" - especially if that written record exists next to a mass of other written records which corroborate it, so you can't just brush it off as a one-off slip of the pen.

Also, as Peterson notes in his acknowledgements section, he has done interviews for this book - tons of them. What he hasn't done, and what he didn't do for Playing At the World, is put much weight in decades-after-the-fact forum posts or the like, and the evidence he's turned up in both books makes it pretty clear he was correct to not do so.

 

[CRKrueger]

He confirms everything except the blow (but we actually have independent confirmation of that via his FBI file that was made public a few years ago - in addition to the time when Lorraine Williams tried to finger him as a dangerous subversive likely associate of the Unabomber he also showed up as a “person of interest” in connection with an investigation into some Lake Geneva drug dealers). Peterson even helpfully provides the name of some other assistant he was sleeping with before hooking up with Gail Carpenter. He doesn’t specifically mention the hot tub parties or name Edy Williams - I had to get that story from Gary first-hand ;)

Edy Williams?

Way to go Gary.

 

[T. Foster]

Edy Williams?
View attachment 37314
Way to go Gary.

Yep. When a nerd from small-town Wisconsin ends up banging someone like that it’s no wonder he lost perspective

 

[CRKrueger]

Yep. When a nerd from small-town Wisconsin ends up banging someone like that it’s no wonder he lost perspective

The song Hollywood Nights comes to mind.

 

[Voros]

Finished reading myself (my review is here for those who are interested) but I agree that Williams came off better than she usually does in discussions of TSR history.

In particular, Peterson substantiates how, after a period when TSR were suffering a streak of annual losses and after a period when they were apparently looking for an outside investor, Gary then did some restructuring to recentralise control under himself... and then the main bank TSR was doing business with suddenly reduced TSR's line of credit (slashing it to $5 million when it had been over $10 million). Given that TSR was bleeding money whilst Gary was living it up on a $10,000/month rented ranch on the West Coast trying to court Hollywood, you can see why the bank would be nervous about Gary having more power, and you can also see why other executives would look at that chain of events and interpret it as a vote of no-confidence in Gary from the bank - and if the company needs that line of credit to stay afloat, it then becomes a question of either Gary loses his job, or everyone loses their job.

Pretty much everything people criticise Williams for in her subsequent management of the company is essentially the continuation of trends which were well in place before she showed up, and keeping TSR alive for another 12 years was good going when the company was rapidly going down the toilet when she took over.

(I also thought the situation with Rose Estes was absolutely wild. Apparently, the Endless Quest series was a mega-success for TSR, accounting for a fat chunk of revenue - as in over one in seven dollars TSR earned in 1983 can be attributed directly to Rose's work - but then they stiffed her on her stock options and wouldn't come to terms on any sort of alternate compensation package... so she quit and filed a lawsuit against them. There's killing the goose that laid the golden egg, and then there's pissing off the goose and daring it to do something about it.)

As far as the "only written sources" thing goes - frankly, I don't think that criticism is merited. We are not talking about a situation where the non-written history is necessarily going to be all that much more compelling on an evidentiary basis than the written sources, especially since a lot of the oral history people are upset about Peterson leaving out is stuff done years or even decades after the fact and the written sources were jotted down at the time. And for this business-oriented stuff, you'd expect most of the important things to be written down in some form or other - and if it isn't, the gap in the documentation is notable in its own right.

On top of that, Peterson shows how Arneson's on-the-record statements about the design process of D&D shifted about here and there, depending on what he was trying to accomplish at the time, as indeed Gygax's did later.

Ultimately, even if you take personal agendas out of the equation (which would be a mistake given how many emotive grudges were involved in the story), human memory is in fact far more mutable than ink on paper. If the written record from the time period says one thing and someone's oral recollections say something different, the obvious next question is "Why was it written down incorrectly at the time?" - especially if that written record exists next to a mass of other written records which corroborate it, so you can't just brush it off as a one-off slip of the pen.

Also, as Peterson notes in his acknowledgements section, he has done interviews for this book - tons of them. What he hasn't done, and what he didn't do for Playing At the World, is put much weight in decades-after-the-fact forum posts or the like, and the evidence he's turned up in both books makes it pretty clear he was correct to not do so.

Thanks for that extensive, thoughtful write-up.

 

[JRT]

My god... I am only 3 pages in to that thread and its amazing. In a car crash kind of way. I always thought that online echo chambers were a politics thing. I never considered that peoples attitudes towards something like DnD could also be subject to the same forces.

We have had a couple of decades now where the "insights" of random posters who "claimed to be there but can't prove it" may have entrenched a lot of false information into the old school gaming scene. Or perhaps made a certain viewpoint the dominant one at the expense of a more realistic and nuanced take. Even when an actual ex-TSR employee pops up and says "that's bollocks" half the forum cries "fake news".

It makes me wonder if what I believe about TSR is actually true or not. Not that I will get angry about it much if I do turn out to know the wrong thing.

From my perspective, I think the online battles in these minor trivial subjects (when you compare to big picture stuff) was more or less foreshadowing the major polarization we have over the bigger issues. The echo chambers started there, and then it branched out once social media started growing into something everybody was using, not just hard core dedicated fans.

As far as entrenched viewpoints go, part of the issues are that the longer you spend you end up creating a shared groupthink over time that can actual blur reality. I remember Mark Evanier writing a series of articles about Scrappy Doo, which shows the perspective of why the character was created and pointed out the facts rather than the weird buzz of the character "ruining the series".

When I think of Zeb Cook, I think of 2E. I like 2E. He did a few other things I like. I don’t get the hatred probably because I don’t worship at the alter of Gary.

I can kind of understand it from a perspective. I actually used to be more of a Gygax zealot myself in younger days. If you really like a creator and they get replaced (especially if it's a work for hire situation), you can end up getting pissed off at the "scab" (the old term for workers who replaced people on strike) worker. And I think for many of the hard core Gygax fans, because Zeb took over, he got the blame. I see similar issues aimed at the new direction TSR was taking in the 80s--people are made that Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms was successful or Dragonlance novels were successful. There's the argument some people might have that people should have been more loyal to the creator than the creation, etc. I remember feeling similar feelings for other people I felt were kicked out. Like I used to be a bit angry that others took over Chris Claremont's X-Men and associated books.

Ultimately though, I think this type of disdain needs to fade over time, and is juvenile. Put it this way--if you are still angry and ranting about the Blumes, Lorraine Williams, Greenwood, Zeb, Hickman, etc., not to mention people who may have once said something dismissive against Gygax 20 years ago after all these years, time to grow up a bit. What good does this type of perspective have? Bitterness and anger doesn't really make sense. At the end of the day, these are real human beings with flaws and virtures...they are not mythic heroes or villains.

Which is also a process that Gary himself must have agreed with otherwise he wouldn't have created AD&D, allowed basic sets by other designers (Holmes, Cook & Menzter) or started to work on ideas for his own "2nd" edition. Had he not lost control of TSR we could have seen a whole series of new editions and variations under his leadership. Even if Gary had at one point wanted AD&D1e to be his "forever rules" the need to make money would have forced his hand.

I think if Gary was never kicked out of TSR, many of the hard core grognards might be saying the same things about him that they say about his replacements. As documented in the book, he was in conflict with a lot of folks, and some of his essays did piss off the fan base. Consider the hindsight years later reactions to Unearthed Arcana, I think the second edition may have turned off some of those same folks if it was published as Gary wanted it to be.

It was this bitterness towards 2nd ed onwards that stopped me going too deep into the OSR scene online.

There are some good folks who focus on the creative sides. I find the OSR enthusiasts span the spectrum of positive creative energy to bitter complaining about the popularity of the past. The problem with the latter attitude is that I feel it tarnishes the whole and then makes it harder to get new blood.

At the beginning of the book I feel for him with a wife and 4-5 kids, losing his job at the insurance company in his 30s and trying to stay afloat by becoming a cobbler (and borrowing $3000 from his Mom for the equipment to do so!).

That must of being scary as shit, in that way D&D blowing up is a remarkable and totally unexpected turnaround. I hope that even after being forced out he made enough that he didn't need to struggle much for the rest of his life.

Trent covered this a bit, but his success was a bit mixed. He wasn't destitute, he owned a home and still was able to create gaming, but in part that was because he did get some money over the years (various non-royalty payments like described before), but some of it was burned through with other investments (the first company Gary had a stake in New Infinities, failed). Gail became an antique dealer and a real estate agent so they were dependent on that for some steady income as well. (I remember distinctly Gary wanted to visit me when he took a vacation and went to the Higgins Armory Museum in Worcester, MA--but they suddenly had to leave home for Gail to seal a major real estate transaction). He was also able to at least create his way--most of the time he owned his work, the stuff he didn't own copyright for was likely to pay certain bills. The downside to that was that he ended up publishing through sort of a "mutual back-scratching" endeavor, which is why some of the Hekaforge/TLG stuff may not have been as polished as major releases.

I do have to wonder though if TSR would have been more under control if the people in control including Gary had been thrifty. You could argue for or against expansion, but there were clearly areas where there was over spending. I think Gary was correct from a business standpoint to look into the Hollywood angle, but probably not spending a ton of money renting mansions and (unfortunately) the other extravagances. And the nepotism was also a problem -- while researching a lawsuit involving Gary Gygax on PACER, I discovered (since bankruptcy is public record) that all three of Gary's daughters declared personal bankruptcy (one was in 2009, but two were 1987 and 1989 from what I remember), which implies a lifestyle suddenly leading up to massive debt. Ernie sort of told his own story in this public facebook post where he talks about his sobriety, which while more of a memoir that a biography it does give insight into at least what kind of life he lead during TSR's reign.

I feel like the TSR story is very similar to what happened with so many companies during the DotCom boom. While the Dot Com era was a combination of a bubble and over expectations, the D&D game was new and had a lot of attention, but I think the similarity was thinking "the sky was the limit" and living like such.

 

[Baulderstone]

I see similar issues aimed at the new direction TSR was taking in the 80s--people are made that Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms was successful or Dragonlance novels were successful.

I find it funny that people act like Gygax was they guy who would have kept the old school purity of D&D when he was the guy greenlighting Saturday morning cartoons. That cartoon did a lot more to D&D seem childish than anything Cook ever did.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I find it funny that people act like Gygax was they guy who would have kept the old school purity of D&D when he was the guy greenlighting Saturday morning cartoons. That cartoon did a lot more to D&D seem childish than anything Cook ever did.

Amusingly, I'm finding that a lot of the hostility towards the cartoon at the time (and people were vehement) is being retconned from history because of the increasing number of "old school" grogs who were young enough to enjoy it back then.

 

[TristramEvans]

It was my introduction to D&D, and I love it

In fact, the game itself was disappointing in comparison

 

[Endless Flight]

I always liked Tiamat and the cool stuff in the show.

 

[Acmegamer]

Amusingly, I'm finding that a lot of the hostility towards the cartoon at the time (and people were vehement) is being retconned from history because of the increasing number of "old school" grogs who were young enough to enjoy it back then.

I just never cared for the kiddie tone nor the look of those cartoons at the time. Speaking of that I'm not fond of all the recent kiddie toned direction that WotC's been doing with their recent Instagram and other media released stuff either.

 

[Endless Flight]

Statue Tiamat Battle - Dungeons And Dragons - Demi Art 1/20 - Iron Studios - Iron Studios Official Store - Action figures, Collectibles &Toys

In the barren and hostile land of a medieval magic world from another dimension called the Realm, six young warriors raise their mystic weapons to face the most fearsome and dangerous creature from this universe. Your leader, Hank, the Ranger, is ready to shoot one of his energetic arrows. By...

ironstudios.com

TristramEvans you should be able to afford this!

 

[Acmegamer]

View attachment 37893

Statue Tiamat Battle - Dungeons And Dragons - Demi Art 1/20 - Iron Studios - Iron Studios Official Store - Action figures, Collectibles &Toys

In the barren and hostile land of a medieval magic world from another dimension called the Realm, six young warriors raise their mystic weapons to face the most fearsome and dangerous creature from this universe. Your leader, Hank, the Ranger, is ready to shoot one of his energetic arrows. By...

ironstudios.com

TristramEvans you should be able to afford this!

Woah, even I flinched at the price of that one. Wow.

 

[EOTB]

I find it funny that people act like Gygax was they guy who would have kept the old school purity of D&D when he was the guy greenlighting Saturday morning cartoons. That cartoon did a lot more to D&D seem childish than anything Cook ever did.

I don't know many people who strongly prefer early AD&D, who also believe that Gygax wasn't drifting from why they like core AD&D.

That doesn't mean we don't roll our eyes at people who post over and over about how Gygax hurt their feelings when they were 11, and this is still a sufficiently open wound four decades later for them to note it at every barely contextual opportunity.

 

[JRT]

I find it funny that people act like Gygax was they guy who would have kept the old school purity of D&D when he was the guy greenlighting Saturday morning cartoons. That cartoon did a lot more to D&D seem childish than anything Cook ever did.

The cartoon was pretty sophisticated for its time, although it was still restricted by what Western cartoons could be at the time.

I don't think the same people who dislike the cartoon are targeting Zeb Cook. Again, the particular take on person arguments involve disliking either the writing style or the direction somebody else took the game.

Amusingly, I'm finding that a lot of the hostility towards the cartoon at the time (and people were vehement) is being retconned from history because of the increasing number of "old school" grogs who were young enough to enjoy it back then.

Probably changing perspective as people look on things with hindsight, like I mentioned regarding Scrappy Doo.

Speaking of Cartoons...the D&D Cartoon was pretty huge in Brazil, it wasn't tied to the game (It was translated to "Cave of the Dragon" I believe), and it's as beloved there as Scooby Doo is here in the US. Not sure if this ever got posted to this forum, but a Brazilian advertiser created a live action "ending" to the story as a car commerical.

 

[JRT]

I used to pop into Dragonsfoot to read the Q/As with the old TSR designers which were fun. I do recall there was a reluctance from them to really go into what happened in the 80s. Maybe they didn't remember or maybe they didn't want to upset their friends by digging up what happened decades ago. Or maybe they just didn't expect to be treated like old rockstars and relentlessly questioned about everything. I wonder if that left the door open for "alternative facts" to gain traction?

I think there are a few reasons for that.

• When it comes to old conflicts and disagreements, some people might feel better not drag up old wounds.
• The fans tend, as many people here do, take everything more seriously than the creators do. For many creators, it's a job and it's only part of their lives. Grudges might exist, but people can start seeing that as Black and White "good vs. evil" statements.
• In some cases, they weren't treated like Rockstars, but like some hecklers treat comics. I've seen a lot of fan vs. creator stuff over time. It can be because the creator is prickly and opinionated. I've noticed a hard-core faction tend to look with disdain on some of the old guard -- and arguments have happened. People think all the bad stuff Gary did was the work of his co-workers like Frank Mentzer or Jim Ward, or the reason why Gygax wasn't as good in his later years was that he was "surrounded by sycophants", etc.

The problem is "alternative facts" will always happen when you have people who invest emotionally in things, and especially when it's chatted amongst like-minded folks.

Would a Gary 2nd ed have been able to fight off the changing times any better?

My own utterly baseless speculation is... Gary somehow gets the Blumes out of TSR. Somehow manages to get Lorraine out. Then discovers that TSR needs money fast. So he rushes his "second edition" for christmas release without enough playtesting and without listening to the other designers in the company. He is, afterall, the Great Game Designer and Father of DnD. The game releases to a mixed reception. Some say its basically 1st edition with some extra bits. Others say its even more broken then before. The game limps on into the early 90s before another financial crunch forces them to need another big release or go bankrupt. This new fangled card game (MtG) has just been released and stolen all their customers...

It's hard to say if so or not. The assumption your making is that a new edition was needed to sell quickly. It could have been more adventures or more novels or maybe something like the purchase of the Forgotten Realms may still have happened.

I do think the second edition as written by Gygax might have had a mixed reaction. Gary was making a few changes some folks didn't feel necessary -- Comliness (Aka Beauty/Uglyness) as a 7th stat, Falling Damage increased. The planned classes we were able to see were in some cases considered overpowered and imbalanced, and some appeared to be akin to what we'd call Prestige Classes or specialty paths today. Classes were going to include things like a Mountebank (con-man who uses hedge magic), Jesters, etc.

It's interesting to note that when 2nd edition came out, pretty much all this other stuff was abandoned for a "back to basics" approach -- with most of the UA stuff surviving were many of the new spells.

 

[JRT]

(I also thought the situation with Rose Estes was absolutely wild. Apparently, the Endless Quest series was a mega-success for TSR, accounting for a fat chunk of revenue - as in over one in seven dollars TSR earned in 1983 can be attributed directly to Rose's work - but then they stiffed her on her stock options and wouldn't come to terms on any sort of alternate compensation package... so she quit and filed a lawsuit against them. There's killing the goose that laid the golden egg, and then there's pissing off the goose and daring it to do something about it.)

This is one of the reasons I like the book. The book showcases a lot of stuff that has been either unknown or forgotten over the years. Things like this, as well as the fact that Lawrence Shick was a key factor behind Star Frontiers and then was screwed on royalties is stuff a lot of folks may not have known. I'm glad we are starting to see this type of detailed research and presentation, since a lot of "recollections" are done in blogs and forums and aren't very objective.

 

[EOTB]

• When it comes to old conflicts and disagreements, some people might feel better not drag up old wounds.

You mean like twelve-and-a-half year old K&KA threads? Referenced a 2nd time three weeks after they first hit the thread and you declined to provide your thoughts on them at that time?

You prosecute the mutual disdain between K&KA and yourself in a manner that's passive aggressive as all hell. Oh wait, I'll reword that. You prosecute the mutual disdain between "a hard core faction" and "some groups" and yourself in a manner that's passive aggressive as all hell.

 

[Bunch]

Only just now listening to the audiobook. Man Dave Arneson is coming off looking bad. Gary doesn't look good either.

 

[Lord Dynel]

I enjoyed it. It was a very informative read. robertsconley referenced 1985. My takeaway from '85 was that - as much as stories make it sound like Gary was swindled out of his company - he really screwed the pooch. It was his to lose, and he lost it. I love Gygax's works, but a businessman he wasn't. Sadly.