Kickstarters Thread

[Mike Myler]

A Touch of Class is getting re-proofed after it received a bunch of revisions and about 5,000 words of new material. It still exists on DriveThruRPG, you just can't see the title because it is deactivated while it gets reproofed (lest someone order a book that's not ready for sale because its alterations haven't been finalized). Anyone who downloaded it should have gotten the revised PDF in an email from DriveThruRPG a few weeks ago (and backers of the last KS can get it via that project's updates).

 

[Voros]

1. Thank you! ♥ I've been toiling on this for well over a year now (planning out the ATMC classes and such)
2. Anyone who offers a KS reward they don't deliver should be held accountable. That said, being owed something is not a license to turn into an unrepentant asshole, nor is it justified motivation to harass the person who owes you. Kickstarter isn't a marketplace. You are not buying anything with a pledge. You are making a charitable contribution with an expected but not at all mandatory return (leastwise that's how it works in Pennsylvania). I'm 100% confident that Morrus has fulfilled tens of thousands of Kickstarter rewards to people who did not go out of their way to be a dick to him. I myself have fulfilled thousands of pledges of my own and thankfully I've never had a toxic backer, but I know Morrus and do not begrudge him for finally choosing to ignore one.

(FYI champ here keeps spamming the project's comments with the exact same message, which is literally the first thing Kickstarter tells people not to do)

I work in the non-profit sector and KS pledge is most definitely NOT a charitable contribution. Only a donation to a non-profit is charitable. Charitable organizations have a special legal status in the US and Canada. That is why they and only they can issue deductible tax receipts. The laws around charitable status are looser in the states (hence televangelists) but any non-profit has a legal duty to ensure that a donation is spent in the manner that the non-profit has told the donor it would be.

A KS pledge is more of an investment with no guarantee of it being fulfilled.

 

[robertsconley]

+1 for would like to know if there are any other backers who pledged at that level and aren't getting rewards. Apparently 176 people pledged at that level or the next higher-up Lifer reward level. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was going by this in the FAQ and thus tallied everything above the lifer level. The multiple rewards was a bit confusing so I doubled check the FAQ. But 179 or 199 is still a question to be answered.

3) At the £100 LIFER or above, you get all that plus the free black EN World d20 AND a sofcover version of either TF&T or Wild Spellcraft.

Any other reward gets the stuff it says plus ANYTHING IN A LOWER TIER. So a £50, £75, £100, £150, £200 reward will automtically include everything in the PDF bundle.

 

[robertsconley]

A Touch of Class is getting re-proofed after it received a bunch of revisions and about 5,000 words of new material. It still exists on DriveThruRPG, you just can't see the title because it is deactivated while it gets reproofed (lest someone order a book that's not ready for sale because its alterations haven't been finalized). Anyone who downloaded it should have gotten the revised PDF in an email from DriveThruRPG a few weeks ago (and backers of the last KS can get it via that project's updates).

Thanks for the explanation. The reason I brought this up is important to establish what is covered by an expansive grant like "All PDF that Enworld produces.". If A touch of Class wasn't a Enworld Publishing release then that would be important to know.

On a personal note, I am well aware asking these questions is going to be unpleasant. There is no way to put this delicately but you need to ask Morrus some hard questions about this issue. This is clear cut as it gets over what was promised, what available, and the means of providing it.

The only uncertainty is whether Justin circumstance of not receiving his rewards is unique, or unfounded. And does it applies to all 176 or 199 backers. .

Both of us seen the various ways how this goes down. I myself am in the midst of dealing with the Judges Guild situation and well aware how pride, feelings, means, and reality intersect. It would be unfair to you get tarred by this if it goes down negatively.

 

[OHT]

Kickstarter isn't a marketplace. You are not buying anything with a pledge. You are making a charitable contribution with an expected but not at all mandatory return (leastwise that's how it works in Pennsylvania).

You were doing fine until your went full Skarka. Never go full Skarka.

 

[Mike Myler]

You are welcome. Morrus tends to be generous (at least with me!) so those people probably did get AToC and To Slay A Dragon and etc., although I am not one of those people so I can't tell you that for sure.

I think Morrus has better things to do than capitulate to a harasser, and I'm of the same opinion--if you decide to be an asshole, you deserve to get treated like one. The terms of use for EN World are pretty simple, Morrus gives people well more than enough rope than they need to hang themselves, and if this guy got himself banned from the website and thus interactions with ENWorld/Morrus/etc. I have no reason to believe he didn't deserve it.

As for the ~200 people who also pledged at that level, it would be amazing to me to find out that they aren't getting their rewards. Especially because there have been multiple Kickstarters since then, including a popular licensed property, and then given his let's go with tenacity if there was anyone else who wasn't getting their rewards I'd bet my hat that Justin would be bringing them up.


Also I don't mean to go full Skarka, but this isn't the same thing as a transaction you make at a store. It's not "the customer is always right" (which is bullshit anyway). You can't treat somebody like crap and then expect them to smile at you. I'm not about condoning that behavior. :/

 

[Mike Myler]

Didn't have to ask! Guess he's prescient?

In case anybody should ask, all the Silver Lifers have access to a downloads folder on EN World where they can download our PDFs. It doesn't include the magazine PDFs simply because they're PWYW anyway, but it has all the WOIN stuff, TSAD and TSAV, 2000AD stuff, Zeitgeist, WotBs, and so on.

 

[robertsconley]

So there we go, question answered. All we need is confirmation by a SILVER Lifer backer that it complete except for the PWYWs and the issue is resolved.

 

[Endless Flight]

I don’t agree that you can just ignore asshole paying customers. You just have to not lower yourself to their level and be professional, ride out their diatribes and complaints (with a smile preferably) and try as hard as you can to alleviate their concerns.

Been in retail for almost 30 years and seen it all (until the next one I haven’t seen shows up).

 

[Bunch]

You are welcome. Morrus tends to be generous (at least with me!) so those people probably did get AToC and To Slay A Dragon and etc., although I am not one of those people so I can't tell you that for sure.

I think Morrus has better things to do than capitulate to a harasser, and I'm of the same opinion--if you decide to be an asshole, you deserve to get treated like one. The terms of use for EN World are pretty simple, Morrus gives people well more than enough rope than they need to hang themselves, and if this guy got himself banned from the website and thus interactions with ENWorld/Morrus/etc. I have no reason to believe he didn't deserve it.

As for the ~200 people who also pledged at that level, it would be amazing to me to find out that they aren't getting their rewards. Especially because there have been multiple Kickstarters since then, including a popular licensed property, and then given his let's go with tenacity if there was anyone else who wasn't getting their rewards I'd bet my hat that Justin would be bringing them up.


Also I don't mean to go full Skarka, but this isn't the same thing as a transaction you make at a store. It's not "the customer is always right" (which is bullshit anyway). You can't treat somebody like crap and then expect them to smile at you. I'm not about condoning that behavior. :/

I know nothing about the drama here but a few points.
Pledgers can reasonablly expect publishers to complete the terms of a contract even if the pledger is an ass. If you don't like dealing with asses don't allow general public contracts. It's not a pick and choose after the fact which pledgers to deliver to.

If someone is harassing you contact the appropriate authorities. If however they are
making it hard to get more money/investors after someone has failed to deliver on a previous KS then deliver.

Personally I expect KS the organization to do much more to protect backers than producers. Pledgers are the ones out real money with on a promise of delivery.

The FTC really needs to decide what exactly KS is. Is it an unregulated investment by non qualified investors? Is it a pre-order system? Is it something in between? Right now it's bad. It's too easy to take the money and not deliver and then run another KS.

 

[robertsconley]

I don’t agree that you can just ignore asshole paying customers. You just have to not lower yourself to their level and be professional, ride out their diatribes and complaints (with a smile preferably) and try as hard as you can to alleviate their concerns.

Been in retail for almost 30 years and seen it all (until the next one I haven’t seen shows up).

I agree

I develop metal cutting software to support the machines that the company I work for sells. I been doing this since the late 80s. And I agree with you 100%. We are small and I am on the 2nd tier of support fielding a fair amount of calls each week on thorny problem. Some customers are great to deal with, other are not. In the end we have to fix the issue they are calling about.

The only caveat is that it is an issue we can deal with it. For example we can't deal with problems with the building's electrical supply. But we to take it upon ourselves to pinpoint problem even if it doesn't lie totally on our equipment. An attitude that allows to fight for #1 in sales for our industry despite being way smaller than our competitors.

 

[Bunch]

I don’t agree that you can just ignore asshole paying customers. You just have to not lower yourself to their level and be professional, ride out their diatribes and complaints (with a smile preferably) and try as hard as you can to alleviate their concerns.

Been in retail for almost 30 years and seen it all (until the next one I haven’t seen shows up).

Which by the way is what robertsconley is doing with someone else's KS. You're a peach dude!

 

[robertsconley]

Which by the way is what robertsconley is doing with someone else's KS. You're a peach dude!

Thanks but it isn't done yet.
The guidebook to the Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches being written and once that done we will see where rest of the KS is at.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I mean, there is a point at which firing a customer is a reasonable response, but it is usually super egregious, and your company has to have no fault in the situation.

I work for a video game publisher that also publishes a easy to use entry level video game engine. We also sell resources (art/music/etc.) for said engine.

There was one guy who would buy stuff every week or two and then immediately email us for a refund a couple of days later like clockwork. And while we could tell him he no longer had a license to use the stuff, we couldn't know for sure that he deleted the ogg/png files that made up the resources.

He did this for nearly a year. We were juggling a lot of responsibilities, so a lot of different people were handling the support emails. Eventually, I caught the pattern, and I went through his stuff, and found that he had had EVERY SINGLE PURCHASE HE EVER MADE REFUNDED.

When the next email came in, claiming that the thing he bought didn't match his standards, I informed him that while we were going to refund this purchase, it was clear that he was not happy with our services, and that he should look elsewhere, and that any further purchases would be made at his own risk.

Then again, this is a situation where the guy literally wasn't a paying customer at all. But it is why I hate the whole "customer is always right" mantra. The customer should always be treated with respect (and even here there are things they can do that break this, if a customer sexually harasses a waitress, I do not believe the restaurant needs to be respectful to that), but the customer is not always right.

 

[Bunch]

Thanks but it isn't done yet.
The guidebook to the Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches being written and once that done we will see where rest of the KS is at.

It was moribund until you picked it up and revived it.

In a similar league are the folks who completed Talislanta the Savage Lands after the project lead passed away suddenly. Thanks tenbones I believe you were part of that crew.

 

[tenbones]

Yeah having been through that tragic state - the best thing and only thing, imo, to do is soldier on.

I wish you guys all the patience and love in the world!

 

[Dumarest]

So first off, I am not trying to bash or say your ideas or concepts are wrong. It's just that I don't get the need to do so. To be fair, though, D&D does share some of the blame. It has broad archetypes right beside hyper focused classes that have almost no wiggle room for customization.

Take the simple fighter, fighting style choices can help determine the type of fighter you can be. Two Weapon? City-based swashbuckler or homestead frontiersman. Archery? Village Yeoman, or a sportsman who did the contest circuit and wants more. Two Handed Weapon? Mercenary or Errant Knight. And that's still nothing but a Fighter, not even touching the subclasses.

The Wizard? Even beyond the nine Schools which have their own archetypes within them, like the Enchantress/Seductress, you pick other schools and within some of them you can have multiple archetypes. Divination, a village Oracle who speaks to spirits, a medieval detective or a sage who seeks knowledge because it's there. Transmuters can also be scientists like Alchemists.

Even Clerics, each Domain can either make a gentle village healer, to a traditional Western Monk or Nun, a fire and brimstone avenger and more. And the Rogue? As many types as there are skills. It is literally the Everyman of adventuring.

That's something I thought 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons more or less "fixed" with its spheres and domains for magic-users and clerics. Even then, all a Dungeon Master using the prior editions ever had to do was make or not make certain spells available to magic-users/clerics to achieve the same result. I never really cared for the proliferation of classes.

Mike Myler seems like a cool guy providing all kinds of content, even if it's not a game I'll ever buy or play--but some of it can be used as inspiration for other games so it's all worth looking at.

 

[Jetstream]

You are making a charitable contribution with an expected but not at all mandatory return (leastwise that's how it works in Pennsylvania).

No sir. it's not a store in that the product doesn't exist yet. It is however mandatory that the project creator actually provide the rewards if they are able to. Excerpt, Kickstarter TOS: https://www.kickstarter.com/section4?ref=faq-basics_creatoroblig

4. How Projects Work

Most of our Terms of Use explain your relationship with Kickstarter. This section is different — it explains the relationship between creators and backers of Kickstarter projects, and who’s responsible for what. This is what you’re agreeing to when you create or back a Kickstarter project.

Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.
Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

• they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
• they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
• they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
• they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
• they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.

The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

The only charitable contributions are contributions to actual charity.

 

[Bunch]

Mike Myler I actually like your kinds of products. I have no issues with more classes. Each GM can decide if they are right for their world.

 

[Justin Alexander]

2. Anyone who offers a KS reward they don't deliver should be held accountable. That said, being owed something is not a license to turn into an unrepentant asshole, nor is it justified motivation to harass the person who owes you. Kickstarter isn't a marketplace. You are not buying anything with a pledge. You are making a charitable contribution with an expected but not at all mandatory return (leastwise that's how it works in Pennsylvania). I'm 100% confident that Morrus has fulfilled tens of thousands of Kickstarter rewards to people who did not go out of their way to be a dick to him. I myself have fulfilled thousands of pledges of my own and thankfully I've never had a toxic backer, but I know Morrus and do not begrudge him for finally choosing to ignore one.

Mike says that EN World reserves the right to not give you the promised rewards from their Kickstarters if you become "toxic" as a result of them not giving you the promised rewards.

Like I said: Back EN World's Kickstarters at your own risk.

And if you think that's me being a "dick"... Well, Mike just said the same thing: EN World will not deliver the rewards they promise not because they are unable to do so, but because they are making the choice to scam you; to take your money and then not deliver was promised.

 

[robertsconley]

Justin Alexander are you able to access your rewards or not? If you are able to do does this include everything that EnWorld Publishing as released except for the PWYW products?

 

[Justin Alexander]

Justin Alexander are you able to access your rewards or not? If you are able to do does this include everything that EnWorld Publishing as released except for the PWYW products?

I am absolutely unable to do so.

 

[robertsconley]

Justin Alexander Morrus referenced a folder off of the enworld site in the message that was shared. How were the backers given access in a general sense. Via email, via post, were individual accounts given? If so were you given this information?

Where I am going with this is to determine precisely what the issues are.

 

[Jetstream]

Justin Alexander Morrus referenced a folder off of the enworld site in the message that was shared. How were the backers given access in a general sense. Via email, via post, were individual accounts given? If so were you given this information?

Where I am going with this is to determine precisely what the issues are.

I'd imagine there are links or instructions in the 10/26/2015 backer only update. No way for me to know tho.

 

[Justin Alexander]

I'd imagine there are links or instructions in the 10/26/2015 backer only update. No way for me to know tho.

I get y'all are trying to help, but I am not confused about how I would access the material if Morrus were, in fact, to give me access to the material.

The first 10/26/2015 update contained RPGNow coupon links to products promised to all backers.

The second 10/26/2015 update ("Latest Silver Lifetime Subscriber Rewards") was a mistake: Morrus attempted to message all Silver Lifetime backers with links to newly released products, but accidentally posted it as an update accessible to all backers instead.

Here's a screenshot of the comments:



This IS when I became aware that he was fulfilling Silver Lifetime Subscription rewards through e-mail, which means that, in addition to not having access to the downloads on EN World's site I was ALSO not on the e-mail distribution list for lifetime subscribers.

Long before these updates, back in May 2013, having not been given access to the lifetime subscription downloads, I messaged Morrus and asked for help. This was his response:



Note that he's claiming he doesn't have to fulfill the Lifetime Subscription because I've already downloaded a bunch of content that was made available to all backers (including those who weren't lifetime subscribers) through Kickstarter Updates (like the first 10/26/2015 update mentioned above).

I had assumed that a simple mistake had been made and he hadn't realized I was a Silver Lifetime Subscriber. I replied. I also sent e-mails. I messaged him on EN World. I got no response. I gave up for several months. In September 2013, I decided that enough was enough:



His response:



"Wait a minute," you say. "What about these relevant info and links?" They're the same all-backer coupon links referenced above, along with a couple of links to redeem badges on EN World's site and other ancillary rewards that aren't particularly relevant to the failure to deliver the lifetime subscription. As I've said before, I have received some of the promised rewards.

All subsequent attempts at communication have, in fact, been ignored or blocked by Morrus.

In case anyone is like "maybe Justin is lying about being a Silver Lifetime Subscriber":



So, like I say, I appreciate that y'all are just trying to help, but this is not "Justin doesn't know what he's doing, LOL." If it was as easy as "here's the link you need," Morrus has had ample opportunities to provide that link over the last 6 years. Or he could provide a refund.

Morrus made a conscious choice to defraud. Myler has endorsed and confirmed that choice right here in this thread.

The facts of what happened here are not in dispute. The only difference is that Morrus and Myler feel that they're justified in choosing to deliberately scam their backers and I, obviously, do not. How anyone reading this thread feels about it is a matter for their own conscience and ethics.

So, like I said: Back EN World's Kickstarters at your own risk.

 

[Endless Flight]

 

[robertsconley]

So, like I say, I appreciate that y'all are just trying to help, but this is not "Justin doesn't know what he's doing, LOL." If it was as easy as "here's the link you need," Morrus has had ample opportunities to provide that link over the last 6 years. Or he could provide a refund.

So did the same thing happen to the other backers at your level or above? Is any of them willing to provide details on the rewards they been given to date?

I with Endless Flight. This is not adding up on Morrus end. However to get to the bottom of this we need to know whether the other backer getting regular updates. If so why you are the exception as early as May 2013. In either case an explanation is warranted.

 

[Jetstream]

I get y'all are trying to help, but I am not confused about how I would access the material if Morrus were, in fact, to give me access to the material.

The first 10/26/2015 update contained RPGNow coupon links to products promised to all backers.

The second 10/26/2015 update ("Latest Silver Lifetime Subscriber Rewards") was a mistake: Morrus attempted to message all Silver Lifetime backers with links to newly released products, but accidentally posted it as an update accessible to all backers instead.

Here's a screenshot of the comments:

View attachment 10118

This IS when I became aware that he was fulfilling Silver Lifetime Subscription rewards through e-mail, which means that, in addition to not having access to the downloads on EN World's site I was ALSO not on the e-mail distribution list for lifetime subscribers.

Long before these updates, back in May 2013, having not been given access to the lifetime subscription downloads, I messaged Morrus and asked for help. This was his response:

View attachment 10121

Note that he's claiming he doesn't have to fulfill the Lifetime Subscription because I've already downloaded a bunch of content that was made available to all backers (including those who weren't lifetime subscribers) through Kickstarter Updates (like the first 10/26/2015 update mentioned above).

I had assumed that a simple mistake had been made and he hadn't realized I was a Silver Lifetime Subscriber. I replied. I also sent e-mails. I messaged him on EN World. I got no response. I gave up for several months. In September 2013, I decided that enough was enough:

View attachment 10122

His response:

View attachment 10123

"Wait a minute," you say. "What about these relevant info and links?" They're the same all-backer coupon links referenced above, along with a couple of links to redeem badges on EN World's site and other ancillary rewards that aren't particularly relevant to the failure to deliver the lifetime subscription. As I've said before, I have received some of the promised rewards.

All subsequent attempts at communication have, in fact, been ignored or blocked by Morrus.

In case anyone is like "maybe Justin is lying about being a Silver Lifetime Subscriber":

View attachment 10119

So, like I say, I appreciate that y'all are just trying to help, but this is not "Justin doesn't know what he's doing, LOL." If it was as easy as "here's the link you need," Morrus has had ample opportunities to provide that link over the last 6 years. Or he could provide a refund.

Morrus made a conscious choice to defraud. Myler has endorsed and confirmed that choice right here in this thread.

The facts of what happened here are not in dispute. The only difference is that Morrus and Myler feel that they're justified in choosing to deliberately scam their backers and I, obviously, do not. How anyone reading this thread feels about it is a matter for their own conscience and ethics.

So, like I said: Back EN World's Kickstarters at your own risk.

See, here's the thing. You're the only one complaining. There are over a hundred people who should be getting the same thing as you, and they're not in the comments, talking about how they never got their shit. If he'd been defrauding people, there'd be several people with the same issue. It appears to be just you.

I really doubt Morrus is out to defraud you in particular. That wouldn't make sense, unless you two know each other personally I guess. So yeah, probably a bunch of us think that you might've missed something in there.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I don't really care whether people think Justin's a dick or not. From what I can tell here, he's completely in the right.

I don't know Mike from Adam and have no personal issue with him.

But a representative of this Kickstarter suggesting that Kickstarter is a "charitable contribution" and that fufilling pledges is "not at all mandatory" sets off major warning bells. I'm guessing you didn''t put that on your Kickstarter page.

And while the customer is not always right (and if fact sometimes the customer is a prick) that doesn't in fact mean you can decide that you're going to keep their money and not send them what they're owed. At most, you can refund the money and tell them to go fuck themselves. (I've occasionally done that with especially annoying clients). In fact, I'd really suggest talking to a lawyer before making public statements that imply that's what you're doing because it strikes me as a bad idea for so many reasons.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I really doubt Morrus is out to defraud you in particular. That wouldn't make sense, unless you two know each other personally I guess. So yeah, probably a bunch of us think that you might've missed something in there.

Myler has sad the opposite:

"I'm 100% confident that Morrus has fulfilled tens of thousands of Kickstarter rewards to people who did not go out of their way to be a dick to him. "

There's a pretty strong implication at the very least that Morrus is going out of his way to not fufil the pledge of Justin, specifically, because he doesn't like the way Justin has handled the issue.

Which is a totally separate issue from what people think of Justin's behaviour. I doubt it meets the legal definition of harrassment from what we've seen on here, but IANAL and Morrus should probably consult with one if he thinks he's being harrassed.

 

[Jetstream]

Myler has sad the opposite:



There's a pretty strong implication at the very least that Morrus is going out of his way to not fufil the pledge of Justin, specifically, because he doesn't like the way Justin has handled the issue.

Which is a totally separate issue from what people think of Justin's behaviour. I doubt it meets the legal definition of harrassment from what we've seen on here, but IANAL and Morrus should probably consult with one if he thinks he's being harrassed.

No, Myler is just bitching at him because he's annoyed that Justin came in the thread and derailed it. The only comments I care about are the ones upstream, where Morrus said "Your primary reward was fulfilled on Saturday, April 6th as per the emails below this."

It's later that Morrus said that he wasn't going to help anymore because he didn't like Justin's attitude. Anyhoo, it's irrelevant, because we'll never be able to find out one way or another. The only people here who have any information are Morrus and Justin. And they're both gonna say they're in the right.

 

[Skywalker]

Just to chime in my support for Justin. A backer’s behaviour is not a reason to refuse to fulfil a KS, especially when that behaviour relates to the backer’s reaction to the failure to fulfil the KS. I won’t back any EN World KS whilst such behaviour continues.

If Morrus wanted to wipe his hands on Justin he should pay a refund. Even a complete fraud like Gareth M Skarka has managed that on occassion.

 

[TristramEvans]

Am I reading the situation correctly, that Justin getting the "lifetime" of continued awards promised by his backer level is somehow contingent on the backer having access to ENWorld, and something happened 6 years ago that got Justin banned from EW, thus unable to access the promised material? (I'm reading between the lines here to understand why every other backer has apparently gotten their rewards, and Justin did not). This assumedly means this is materials published in pdf form that backers access through ENWorld exclusively in some way?

Or is the reward a "Silver Membership" to ENWorld itself (presumably meaning access to certain benefits of being on the Forum)?

If the former, yeah, I'd agree that Morrus is obligated, on a basic level, to provide those materials to backers regardless of whether they actually are on ENworld or not. However, if it's the latter, I think there is an argument to be made that the reward includes the contingent that the person abides by the rules of the forum, and a banning (assuming such a thing took place) would void the so-called "Silver membership".

To put it another way, if I ran a KS and promised automatic access to all gaming materials I produced pertaining to said KS (say, for Phaserip), which I then relayed to backers via posting links here on ThePub, even if a backer was banned from ThePub, I would still be obligated to forward said material to that person, or refund at least part of their pledge. However, if the Kickstarter reward instead promised "Silver Membership" to ThePub itself, conferring some sort of benefit (access to invite only forums or ad-free viewing, or something), then the backer would still be obligated to adhere to the Pub's rules, and if they started spamming the boards with political content (fr'ex) and caught a ban, then I would see that as them throwing away their membership, not something I personally am responsible for (however, I personally would probably offer a partial refund, regardless, just because that's the sort of person I am, not because I would feel a legal obligation to do so).

If neither of those situations are a correct reading of what has occurred, then I think I'd need a lot more information to go on to form a judgement than what's been posted here in this thread.

If either of those readings are correct, however, regardless of whether I think Justin is owed something or not, I don't see any reason to conclude that Morrus is thus a "scam artist". Neither situation fits the definition of a scam to me, it's more like a legal dispute between individuals.

Anyways, I don't see any possible way this can be resolved here and now at The Pub, whatever the case, especially as this Morrus person (I assume) is not a poster here. That Mr. Myler here works with Morrus doesn't mean he has any obligation to take responsibility for what Morrus may or may not owe.

 

[Chris Brady]

Just want to add something: The Customer IS always right. But not in the way everyone seems to imply. The Customer (The term is PLURAL in this case) gets to decide whether or not a product is worth their money. And they get to dictate yes, or no.

If it's not, then it doesn't get bought and the company has to try something else to sell. If it is, then it behooves the company to keep making said product.

This is what it means when they say 'The Customer is Always Right'. A bit of a bugbear I have.

Oh, and if Mr. Alexander is banned from EnWorld and Morrus does not want to reinstate him as per the reward in the Kickstarter pledge, then it's up to Morrus refund the money or provide an equivalent service, which ever is cheaper to Morrus. That's as far as it should go.

 

[TristramEvans]

Just want to add something: The Customer IS always right. But not in the way everyone seems to imply. The Customer (The term is PLURAL in this case) gets to decide whether or not a product is worth their money. And they get to dictate yes, or no.

If it's not, then it doesn't get bought and the company has to try something else to sell. If it is, then it behooves the company to keep making said product.

This is what it means when they say 'The Customer is Always Right'. A bit of a bugbear I have.

If it was actually used that way in real life, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, honestly.

 

[Dumarest]

Maybe we can we have an "Accusations & Recriminations" thread stickied in the "Site & Community" section.

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[Bunch]

No, Myler is just bitching at him because he's annoyed that Justin came in the thread and derailed it. The only comments I care about are the ones upstream, where Morrus said "Your primary reward was fulfilled on Saturday, April 6th as per the emails below this."

It's later that Morrus said that he wasn't going to help anymore because he didn't like Justin's attitude. Anyhoo, it's irrelevant, because we'll never be able to find out one way or another. The only people here who have any information are Morrus and Justin. And they're both gonna say they're in the right.

But the primary reward is lifetime access to all products now and into the future. Unless they cease releasing product that can't be marked as fulfilled.

Maybe we can we have an "Accusations & Recriminations" thread stickied in the "Site & Community" section.

I can't see how that's going to add to happiness.

 

[AsenRG]

But the primary reward is lifetime access to all products now and into the future. Unless they cease releasing product that can't be marked as fulfilled.

Indeed. I must take Justin Alexander 's side as well.
I mean, I've had issues with not receiving a backer reward...more than once. Never had an issue receiving a replacement. And my contribution was well below his.

I can't see how that's going to add to happiness.

The rest of us could just not open it.

 

[Bunch]

Indeed. I must take Justin Alexander 's side as well.
I mean, I've had issues with not receiving a backer reward...more than once. Never had an issue receiving a replacement. And my contribution was well below his.


The rest of us could just not open it.

I'm not taking sides. I don't know the whole facts and I don't know either person well enough to trust them just on their word.