[Kickstarter] Demon City by Zak Smith aka. Sabbath

[Ulairi]

Being able to make RPGs isn't a fucking right. And you know, he can keep making them. He's just probably blacklisted by almost every publisher, would have to self publish, and deal with all the backlash that his own actions have caused.

But again, making RPGs and selling them for a living isn't a right. He can make a living flipping burgers for all I care.

That’s a dark attitude to have and I don’t hold it. This is an example of why I’m going through a lot in my life to de “internetify” my and my families life. I don’t think the internet has turned into a healthy place because of these sorts of attitudes, at large, not specifically about yours.

And I don’t really think Zak is going to be blacklisted. GMS was allowed to write under a fake name after he has defrauded people and threatened to commit physical violence against a retired police officer. I won’t be shocked that Zak is allowed to do the same and he’s probably smart enough (not a compliment) not to go around telling people about it.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Its a dark attitude to not care if someone who manipulated, abused, and raped someone for over a decade can publish RPGs?

What's a dark attitude is seeming to give more shits about whether he can publish games again than about what he did. And this is based on the fact that you admitted you think he was abusive. But that isn't what you care about in this thread. No, its this idea that some of us don't want him to be able publish RPGs anymore. Apparently that is the real sin.

I mean, really? This is what you want to defend? Again, he can self publish, no one is stopping him. But for some reason you think that publishers should have to deal with him? Why? Who are you to force them to do so? If they don't want to associate with them, then they shouldn't have to.

And I honestly think that if you are still associating with him at this point, your character is in question.

 

[Endless Flight]

The Pub will be OK because less and less people here would post to this thread as time goes on, basically suffocating it. Most people get some thoughts of their chest and move on with their lives. This thread would not destroy this forum. I kept it open because I know the community here wouldn’t let that happen.

As I was getting ready to go to bed last night thinking of the toxicity that topics like this on the internet and social media can cause, one of my favorite quotes came to mind...

 

[Ulairi]

Its a dark attitude to not care if someone who manipulated, abused, and raped someone for over a decade can publish RPGs?

What's a dark attitude is seeming to give more shits about whether he can publish games again than about what he did. And this is based on the fact that you admitted you think he was abusive. But that isn't what you care about in this thread. No, its this idea that some of us don't want him to be able publish RPGs anymore. Apparently that is the real sin.

I mean, really? This is what you want to defend? Again, he can self publish, no one is stopping him. But for some reason you think that publishers should have to deal with him? Why? Who are you to force them to do so? If they don't want to associate with them, then they shouldn't have to.

And I honestly think that if you are still associating with him at this point, your character is in question.

Have I ever associated with Zak? I’d like you to show me where I have. I stated I never purchased his books and wouldn’t purchase his books.

I mean it’s really great you think you can question my character but I was on the mind that do we need to continue to beat the horse that Zak Smith was abusing Mandy? I think everybody agrees on that. And If you think it calls my character into question to say that at some point, Zak Smith should be able to be redeemed and continue to write and release product well....go ahead. Like I asaid, we have a religion that has formed over the last twenty or so years that has no mechanism for redemption.

I understand it is more difficult in cases like this where Zak Smith, unfortunately, won’t be facing the criminal justice system because if somebody serves their time in prison, it can be easier to say “Well they served their time” or whatever.

There isn’t really any debate or discussion on if Zak is a bad guy or not. He is a terrible person. He was abusive both mentally and physically to a woman for years. I think he should be behind bars. If Mandy was my daughter I’d personally beat him to an inch of his life.

My wife grew up in an orphanage in Urumqi China. And when I say grow up I mean lived her entire life until he was lucky enough to get to the United States to go to University. You cannot imagine how horrible it was to be in an orphanage, in Northwest China, let alone to be there as a girl and a young woman. She was sexually abused and raped by caregivers and other boys that were orphans her entire childhood and young adult life.

I am not forgiving or excusing Zak I’m not saying he should be allowed next week to sell a PDF on RPGNow. I am saying that we as a society need to be able to allow horrible people like Zak to be redeemed. I didn’t even say Zak will himself try to seek redemption. Based on his track record he won’t because he’s been an abrasive jerk for years and he is so arrogant that he will rationalize to himself that this is everybody else’s fault and he will hone in on one unclear statement or mistatatement and try use that to discredit everything else somebody said. He’s not a good guy. It’s why I was never interested in his products and will continue not to be interested in his products.

This is why I’m not happy with people using the abuse of a woman to settle political scores. And, I don’t really know what else to add to Zak not being a good person. That is just going to be a circular thread.

But you go ahead and call my character into question. If you’d like, you can add me to the blacklist that folks are floating around of “bad people” that should be banned from the hobby. Should I go ahead an cancel my GaryCon plans now or will you and the mob be doing that for me? Just let me know because I’ve got 5 games scheduled.

Thanks!

 

[EmperorNorton]

1. I wasn't accusing you, I apologize if it came off that way, I meant it in the generic "you" in reference to publishers still associating with him. (I'm still waiting to see what Raggi has to say as he has been extremely no comment to this point).
2. If a person does not seek redemption they aren't worthy of it. If he starts making steps on the path to redemption I'll give it a reconsider, but I just don't see it ever happening.
3. This is not about political scores to me. I hated Zak before this but I never had a problem with him publishing until this came out. This is about him being about the lowest type of low a human being can possibly be and doing untold trauma to Mandy and others.

 

[Luca]

Its a dark attitude to not care if someone who manipulated, abused, and raped someone for over a decade can publish RPGs?

"Deplatforming" is the nice term for "I want to wreck someone's life by completely ruining him financially". It's shitty and untenable. If you want to go that far, then you first need standards of proof similar to those of a court of law because you're verging into the same territory. "I can't jail him" is not going to cut it.

Here's 2 obvious facts you should think about when you talk about this "deplatforming" crap:

A) talk on the internet is cheap. If you unjustly accuse someone of abuse/rape/whatever in real life, an official investigation will start and you can face jail time if it turns out you talked shit. On the internet it's completely different. Sure there's the theoretical possibility of being sued for libel, but in practice it's nearly impossible. In a sense, the internet is the reverse of real life: in real life, accusations are costly and you're innocent until proven guilty. On the internet, accusations are free and you're guilty until proven innocent.

B) internet lynch mobs, just like the goold old lynch mobs of yore, don't really care about "collateral damage". And you can already see how this is happening in this case as well.

 

[Ulairi]

1. I wasn't accusing you, I apologize if it came off that way, I meant it in the generic "you" in reference to publishers still associating with him. (I'm still waiting to see what Raggi has to say as he has been extremely no comment to this point).
2. If a person does not seek redemption they aren't worthy of it. If he starts making steps on the path to redemption I'll give it a reconsider, but I just don't see it ever happening.
3. This is not about political scores to me. I hated Zak before this but I never had a problem with him publishing until this came out. This is about him being about the lowest type of low a human being can possibly be and doing untold trauma to Mandy and others.

No worries. It's hard online to read context sometimes. My apologies to if what I said has seemed personal to you .

It's hard for me because we had somebody come in with an enemies list and he is trying to settle scores.

Anyway I've said my peace. I'm going to (try) to let this thread die.

 

[Ulairi]

"Deplatforming" is the nice term for "I want to wreck someone's life by completely ruining him financially". It's shitty and untenable. If you want to go that far, then you first need standards of proof similar to those of a court of law because you're verging into the same territory. "I can't jail him" is not going to cut it.

Here's 2 obvious facts you should think about when you talk about this "deplatforming" crap:

A) talk on the internet is cheap. If you unjustly accuse someone of abuse/rape/whatever in real life, an official investigation will start and you can face jail time if it turns out you talked shit. On the internet it's completely different. Sure there's the theoretical possibility of being sued for libel, but in practice it's nearly impossible. In a sense, the internet is the reverse of real life: in real life, accusations are costly and you're innocent until proven guilty. On the internet, accusations are free and you're guilty until proven innocent.

B) internet lynch mobs, just like the goold old lynch mobs of yore, don't really care about "collateral damage". And you can already see how this is happening in this case as well.

Last one and I'm out!

I think when abuse has been going on for years it is much harder to have the state investigate because the evidence is harder to collect because time makes memories fuzzy and other things. It's why these sorts of crimes are not always prosecuted.

I don't think the line should always be conviction of a crime when it comes to situations like Zak. Zak has a demonstrable track record of being abrasive. It is not hard for me to see how his manipulation and abrasiveness online could be even worse on real life. I tend to believe women when they speak up about spending years in abusive relationships. That's just me.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

If someone shits on my carpet, I'm not deplatforming them if I stop inviting them to my house. It's not even deplatforming them if I tell someone "hey this person is a carpet shitter" and their response is "hey, thanks, I'm not going to invite them over either".

"Deplatforming" is just a jargony term for something that happens all the time.

At least one person is banned from my gaming group (in general, not just my game) because he's a whiny little fuck who we caught cheating.

Have we "deplatformed" him? Is the act of not letting him play games with us inherently political.

(He's never been found guilty of cheating at RPGs in a court of law).

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

"Deplatforming" is the nice term for "I want to wreck someone's life by completely ruining him financially". It's shitty and untenable. If you want to go that far, then you first need standards of proof similar to those of a court of law because you're verging into the same territory. "I can't jail him" is not going to cut it.

Well, yeah, but in court the burden of proof is actually "beyond reasonable doubt" and I think there's a legitimate argument that benchmark has been reached, depending on your definition of "reasonable".

More importantly, this is entirely theoretical anyway. Nobody is going to be able to ruin Zak financially. Even if they wanted to stop him self publishing (and I'm sure some do) it's not viable. He's not going to be cut off by webhosts or credit card processors over this.

As an aside, there's one obvious indicator why this isn't political. Without going into individuals by names, it's fair to say that people's position on this really don't seem to be predicted on what we know of their overall politics.

 

[Ladybird]

We have a religion right now with a lot of cultural power, and they have no mechanism for redemption in that religion.

No, we do not. We do not have anything like a religion. We have communication.

We have people more open to talk and tell others about what people have done to them, and to take action based on that. This isn't a new thing, these sorts of "this person is like this..." chats have always happened, they're just being held in the open now because it's easier for disparate groups to get together and discuss things. You can't run from your past by hopping between communities any more, because these communities talk to each other now.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

No, we do not. We do not have anything like a religion. We have communication.

We have people more open to talk and tell others about what people have done to them, and to take action based on that. This isn't a new thing, these sorts of "this person is like this..." chats have always happened, they're just being held in the open now because it's easier for disparate groups to get together and discuss things. You can't run from your past by hopping between communities any more, because these communities talk to each other now.

I'm also not really seeing this "cultural power" in my day to day gaming. And my group is full of Gen Zs and Millenials. Don't think I know of any incidents where we've had any issues beyond "I realised this isn't the game for me can I swap to a different one?"

 

[sureshot]

Standing up for people who need help are table stakes where I come from.

Let me be perfectly clear (and this will be my final post on the forum): if you are a supporter of serial harassers online, a cheerleader for violence against women and misogyny, supporter of identitarianism or racism, sexual abusers or rapists, I really don't want or care for your monetary support. And honestly, it's probably better for both of us, because I will never apologize for using my platform to stand against poisonous elements within the tabletop gaming community.

Peace.

Well if were not "woke" enough or bending over backwards your more than welcome to leave this place. No one here is forcing you to stay. You sir are a complete hypocrite. You and others like yourself closed your eyes to what Zack was doing because it benefitted you in some way. Now to divert the Internet mob your suddenly the most virtue signalling, gender and identity politics rpg shilling crusader in the world.

I was thought as a child to thread women with respect. Thst any man who harmed one in anyway was and is a piece of garbage. I also learned on my own that everyone in our society should be given due process and assume guilt. I'm sure that makes me a bad person to you and others in this thread. How dare myself and others think for ourselves. We should be embracing the all mighty narrative and falling in line with the internet mob mentality.

Save your lies about not caring or wanting money because your constant shlling of your rpg proves otherwise. No one promotes their product so much and expects no money. But hey if you don't care or want money go make a sizeable donation to the nearest womem in your area. I'm certain you won't though and claim to morally superior than the rest of us.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

Yes. Everyone agrees about that much.

The discussion of how we, as good people, should deal with horrific crimes - what the burden of proof should be, how harshly the guilty should be punished, all the actual practical details - is, however, political. One might even say that it's one of the fundamental political questions. People on one side worry about scumbags getting away with murder because the system is too lax, people on the other side worry about innocents getting their lives ruined because the system is too harsh, both of them are right to worry because any imaginable system will by necessity result in a certain amount of both those things, and so you get endless yelling and incriminations because no one feels like they can afford, in the name of justice and decency, to back down. Case in point, this thread.

Nailed it in one. The alleged crimes are just that, crimes. But how people deal with that and react to that is, sadly, political. Just discussing the crime will result in political fallout like we've seen here.

 

[sureshot]

I'm not defending Zak. Even before this happened I found his behavior online annoying and in some cases reprehensible. If the accusations against him are true then he is a poor excuse of a man. I'm also a firm believer of a person having due process and will not assume they are guilty. Nor is it about gender, I would feel the same way about this if Zak was female, male or whatever gender they identify with.

I make no apologies to those who embrace the narrative here. Nor all too willing to join the Internet mob.

 

[Baulderstone]

I think just about every possible opinion on the matter had been expressed at this point, and I suspect we already know all we will ever know about this story. I've made up my mind about it, and it seems like everyone else has. Barring another bombshell development, I think this thread is done, so I am locking it for now.

Let's go back to talking about games.