[Kickstarter] Demon City by Zak Smith aka. Sabbath

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Okay, at this point, people have brought up drama around Zak, Zak has given his side of the story. Rather than attempting to determine the truth of the matter through an Internet discussion, perhaps the least effective justice system conceived of by mankind, lets just stick to talking about the game now.
 
I still need to pick up Frostbitten and Mutilated, I’d prefer a hardcopy though so I’ll have to look for it in a FLGS (buying directly from LotFP’s site is too expensive).
 
Zak Smith said:
It's not "deck building", it's basically mechanically similar to "Roll a handful of d10s and use the highest one only" (which is how the dice version works and how it did work for about the first half of playtesting, the dice version isn't a kludge, it's basically this) but the players get up to 1 extra card per player as "treasure" for defeating monsters or doing other leveling-up-type stuff (the fortune teller reads your tea leaves esentially). There's no way to control what your extra card is and it doesn't change much. You can't "build" your deck in the sense of "seek out some card".
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Well, okay. How does the dice version handle signifiers? How does the dice version handle character gen, and the varying odds there? How does the dice version handle the way that certain numbers are depleted from the card version? All of these systems, in the card-only version, have odds which change every time a card is drawn, and that looks like a very carefully designed-in feature of the system; however, with dice, the odds are the same every roll. Does substituting the cards for dice make the two systems feel different at the table? Are there any other feel differences between the two versions of the system? Do you and / or your players have particular preferences between the two?
 
Ladybird said:
Well, okay. How does the dice version handle signifiers?
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How does the dice version handle the way that certain numbers are depleted from the card version?
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To use it as a reward, you just write it down.
As far as using it in die rolls: you don't. It's just d10s without the 3-5 extra cards (out of a deck of 40 players' cards ranged 1-10. So it's 40 players' cards if nobody has a significator and 45 cards if 5 players all have one active). So the odds are slightly different in the dice game. Maybe that makes it a "kludge"? If so: all the playtesters played that kludge pretty happily too.

It's a bit like the difference between playing D&D with and without miniatures: it's different. But more in a way like "Tarot cards/minis add excitement" and less like "Without them, it's a crippled game". It's like playing every other game on the planet with just dice. The cards add a dimension, but not a dimension that the game fails without. Ymmv.

The major difference with the cards as far as "feel" is less the odds (being a horror system, the game's mostly about trying to stack lots of tactical advantages against a massively overpowered foe and then praying) and more about how everybody flipping over cards at once as opposed to looking at dice at once focuses attention in a nice way (like using miniatures).

I tried it both ways for a reason and I said it's viable both ways because i think it is. We've all played D&D or something far from home without all our preferred gear and...it's still cool. But it's also cool to be able to use all your props and shit.
 
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Oh and I think the character generation dice hack is in the "Character Generation" link above.

If not: I just ran the odds and turned it into percents, one d100 roll per stat.
 
I'll admit it, while Zak does seem to be abrasive at times and is controversial, he actually is a legitimately good artist despite any of my doubts and misgivings I may have had about his current gaming project.

Haven't played his game and I'm not sure if it will be my cup of tea, but I'm with Baulderstone and think we should leave any off-site drama and controversies at the door and I say we just stick to talking about gaming.

That's why I love the Pub as a website, it's about the games first and foremost.

Zak, good luck on your game and welcome to the Pub.
 
Zak Smith said:
It's a bit like the difference between playing D&D with and without miniatures: it's different. But more in a way like "Tarot cards/minis add excitement" and less like "Without them, it's a crippled game". Ymmv.
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Oh, okay, that sounds pretty simple actually. I'm sorry I said it looked like a kludge.

Would the system work just as well with regular playing cards?
 
Ladybird said:
Oh, okay, that sounds pretty simple actually. I'm sorry I said it looked like a kludge.

Would the system work just as well with regular playing cards?
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with regular cards:

-character gen would be the same.

-rewards would be the same (assuming you just wrote down like “the hanged man” instead of hacking it so the only reward cards were the face cards)

-the players deck would be 30 cards (1-10) and the Host’s deck would be 10 cards (1-10) —in standard Demon City the players have 40 cards (approx) and the host has 10.

...so the math would be different but comparable.

essentially think of the extra tarot cards as criticals—removing them removes some critical hits from the game but doesnt make normal play fall apart
 
Consider me interested, because these kind of settings always interest me.
 
This made me curious, since I tend to play on Roll20 exclusively these days, and there's a slew of free tarot decks one can download (image by image) and add to Roll20 as a playable deck if one so chose (for the core mechanic of the game, rather than switching to the dice system).
 
yabaziou said:
Z Zak Smith Why did you kickstarted your Demon City RPG after a rather succesful patreon campaign ?
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Mike--the publisher, who did Hubris for Dungeon Crawl Classics and Gathoxx Vertical Slum--wanted to fund production via Kickstarter.

I already got paid to write and draw earlier, the Kickstarter just pays for graphic design, production, shipping, taking orders, printing, stretch goals, etc.

For comparison: each person on a major property like D&D or Vampire V5 got a full-time salary to do their work on those books. My Patreon paid my salary as writer, designer and artist for a year, the Kickstarter pays everyone else's salary and production costs for the coming year.

Also, by doing the patreon first, I 100% guarantee there is a game and illustrations already, so no chance of vaporware.
 
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It seems like an OSR WoD game. Cool! I like that a lot. Did I mention before that I love (random) tables? The more options the better.
 
I have zero problem with Patreon + Kickstarter funding for indie RPG products. Patreon helps the creator spend less time on other work and more time on the project. Kickstarter helps the creator to determine the quality of the final product, and whether it features just the core or the addon bonuses. Also, going to Kickstarter with the product 90% finished ensures that the creator is far less likely to go vaporware, and Patreon helps with that. Both also serve a second purpose and that's market awareness. No-one will fund the project if they don't know about it. Both are great at getting word out about your creation. Bonus points if there is a free version of the end product made available (such as an artless PDF).
 
Zak Smith said:
. . . [E]ach person on a major property like D&D or Vampire V5 got a full-time salary to do their work on those books. My Patreon paid my salary as writer, designer and artist for a year, the Kickstarter pays everyone else's salary and production costs for the coming year.

Also, by doing the patreon first, I 100% guarantee there is a game and illustrations already, so no chance of vaporware.
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A great model for responsible crowdsourcing.
 
Zak Smith said:
Though it's a 1-10 system it's a lot more like Chill or Call of Cthulhu than WoD.

Though if you want a real OSR take on World of Darkness I recommend Mabel Harper's recent stuff:
https://ablogfullofdemons.blogspot.com/2018/06/lamentations-of-vampire-princess-pt-4.html
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So it really needs to be based on ODnD or DnD B/X to be called OSR? I never really got that definition of the OSR, except for being based on old rpg's, mostly on D&D, having dungeon crawls and being pretty ruleslight.
 
Jan Paparazzi said:
So it really needs to be based on ODnD or DnD B/X to be called OSR? I never really got that definition of the OSR, except for being based on old rpg's, mostly on D&D, having dungeon crawls and being pretty ruleslight.
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It depends on who you ask. Some people are intent on the OSR specifically referring to older editions of D&D, but it's oe of those things where the definition is based entirely on mutual agreement. Looking to the Grognardia blog, at one point the distillation of the movement, he covers numerous games besides D&D.
 
Zak Smith said:
A great way to make this site better than alternatives right now is to not at all have a conversation about what is or isn't OSR right now and instead talk about something more interesting or useful.
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Well now my popcorn is going to go to waste!
 
Zak Smith said:
A great way to make this site better than alternatives right now is to not at all have a conversation about what is or isn't OSR right now and instead talk about something more interesting or useful.
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I don't know if we've had the "what is OSR" thread, but we recently had a "what is an RPG" thread, and it was sooooooooo productive. We're all better gamers, now!
 
Bunch said:
I invoke OSR purity fights any time I get bored of the no politics rule.

:devil:
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Pahh. I'm more for dice rolling purity. Hit rolls must be with your dominant hand and damage rolls with your off hand. You must twist your hand clockwise (counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere) to get the proper spin and randomization when releasing the dice. Anything else is not just wrong but badwrongfun. I shall employ the vaunted debate tactics of deliberate obtuseness, bombast and snide comments until you see the error of your ways. I may also make unsupported generalizations based on my myopic experiences. Now that is a way for an adult to spend their limited amount of free time....next: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. :smile:
 
TristramEvans said:
I didnt even know that was a controversial topic. But I'm sure we could find a way to make it about food
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Ha! Try to start a sandbox vs linear adventure topic and find out the longer the topic last, the more nuclear it becomes what people think is an open world, a sandbox, a linear adventure/dungeon/mystery and railroading. Everyone has different definitions.
 
Jan Paparazzi said:
Ha! Try to start a sandbox vs linear adventure topic and find out the longer the topic last, the more nuclear it becomes what people think is an open world, a sandbox, a linear adventure/dungeon/mystery and railroading. Everyone has different definitions.
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I'm hoping that this is a forum where it will not become nuclear and that the rpgpub has attracted those who can agree to disagree in a reasonable manner. What I've seen of definition threads is really just navel gazing at best. I prefer to gaze at my navel on other rpg topics :smile:

The worst definitional threads are when it's simply virtue/status signaling that if a game falls within/outside a definition it is good/bad and the vehement poster wants to signal that they are the great defender of purity and/or smarter than all others because, you know, they have or know the true definition. Kind of like having the true name of a demon I guess. That's assuming it's not simply trolling.

Wait a second, the worse are people mutating their definition and meanings of words not because they are changing their mind or trying to explain things better, but to present a moving target so rational arguments by others cannot stick....this target often moves in circles from my experience. Frankly when the target is so moved the person is an idiot, troll, or knows that there views are on weak ground so they keep shifting things to avoid being cornered...frankly if you cannot put forth a clear (non-shifting) premise and make clear arguments that can withstand the light of day and reasonable counter arguments, then you are already "cornered" and have "lost."

I often wonder why one needs a definition, what analysis or explication will one use it for?
If a definition is needed, then let's find one that does not abuse the common connotations of a term, that is close enough then explore what it means and identify edge cases and overlaps. We can discuss if games that meet the definition deliver the experience we expect therefrom, or even if such expectations are valid.
 
Having finally looked at the KS, I have to say that's some gorgeous artwork. I really like the use of color. In for the PDF.

I waffled over the hardcover. I'm still kicking myself for not getting Maze in print. Speaking of which, I heard rumors of another print run of MotBM...did I hallucinate that?
 
I think I'll have to back the project at PDF level this time, as I've got a limited budget (split between lots of games, at the moment) and the postage to NZ is a bit of a killer (as always). I like the art though, and should be able to mine the content for campaign ideas I think.

I wonder when White Wolf eventually get round to doing a 5th Edition of Mage: The Ascension, whether a contribution of ideas might be made? I could see a fair amount of this material working in that game also, as the game needs a push in a particular narrative direction from time to time.
 
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