Kickstarter sucks.

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Does Kickstarter suck?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 8 11.6%

  • No.

    Votes: 49 71.0%

  • Have a nice day.

    Votes: 12 17.4%
  • Total voters
    69
Annnnd, reading through the story some...familiar...names come up.

I reiterate, I don't trust the RPG industry, it is full of parasites.
 
Chris Brady said:
It's events like that make me leery of crowdfunding. I'm happy people have only good experiences, but things like that are so easy to have happen, and you the customer have little recourse to handle this.
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Oh, I think at this point a class action suit is absolutely possible. The issue is what that will cost, how long it will take, and in the end if there's even going to be a way to get money out of a legal victory. The best scenario would be to find a DA in the area that is willing to take it on as a criminal case.
 
TristramEvans said:
Oh, I think at this point a class action suit is absolutely possible. The issue is what that will cost, how long it will take, and in the end if there's even going to be a way to get money out of a legal victory. The best scenario would be to find a DA in the area that is willing to take it on as a criminal case.
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No one can afford a lawsuit. No one. It costs too much, there's almost no payout, even the lawyers don't make THAT much after all the research. And given the lack of income most RPG makers have, it'll get buried and it'll be another Far West where we all point and laugh at. And no one will learn from the mistake.
 
Chris Brady said:
No one can afford a lawsuit. No one. It costs too much, there's almost no payout, even the lawyers don't make THAT much after all the research. And given the lack of income most RPG makers have, it'll get buried and it'll be another Far West where we all point and laugh at. And no one will learn from the mistake.
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Pretty sure 80k is criminal. Here in Canada it would be fraud over 5k and that means potential and likely jail time.
 
Chris Brady said:
No one can afford a lawsuit. No one. It costs too much, there's almost no payout, even the lawyers don't make THAT much after all the research. And given the lack of income most RPG makers have, it'll get buried and it'll be another Far West where we all point and laugh at. And no one will learn from the mistake.
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Well, hopefully a few people will learn from the mistake, at least. I agree taking legal action is almost pointless in these cases unless you've got money to burn on a moral victory, but criminal proceedings are a possibility at least. GMS is smart enough to be dishonest and not open himself up to such consequences.
 
The update after the one linked above is interesting...

kscam.PNG

Wondering what missing "context" actually accounts for "I spent 80K of the KS funds for my move"...?
 
I say more and more lately... I'm just getting too old for dealing with this kind of crap. ;)
 
Faylar said:
I say more and more lately... I'm just getting too old for dealing with this kind of crap. ;)
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danny-glover.jpg
 
Chris Brady said:
So a friend of mine backed a game on KS, and then they got...
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Here's my way of thinking about it...

It's a bad idea to think of Kickstarter as a pre-order service. The right way to think of it as monetizing fandom into revenue advances. In other words, if you see something you like, you are faced with several options:
  • Go in blind. Back the project because you like what you see, and you want to help it see the light of day. Don't spend too much because you can't assess the risk.
  • You recognize the creators or do your research on them:
    • They are battle-tested crowdfunding vets who have consistently delivered: It might as well be a pre-order, and as a fan, you get to see it in the formative stages.
    • They are first-timers: You're back to going in blind.
    • They have a bad track record: Obviously, don't back these.
I think the site could do better at foregrounding the history of the creator. The side effect is that this reduces the value for people who need it most: first-timers. But realistically, people should understand the element of risk or you'll end up with backers who feel burned. It might even be nice if KS threw a big notification in your face every time you back a project to remind you that this is not a pre-order system.

This kind of transparency is to everyone's benefit, including KS. Because I think that people easily misunderstand its value and get burned or hear stories of getting burned. That can't be in Kickstarter's interest.
TristramEvans said:
The update after the one linked above is interesting...
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I don't even bother to decide what is true, much less who is at fault, in situations like these. The point is that it's a big dramatic mess and I wouldn't get my hopes up that this will turn out for the backers. Is the described behavior here even illegal? I have no idea of the TOS. But this should be the sort of thing that shows up prominently in a creator's history at the very least. What does it take for KS to ban a creator?
 
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The Red Moon Rising kickstarter for BRP RD100 has hit a few snags, and is significantly overdue now.

Two years overdue, with no end in sight, and infrequent updates

Some backers have demanded refunds, but I guess most have quietly given up on it
 
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Ha. I checked my email this morning, read through the Kamigari updates in it, and then immediately thought of this thread. And here we are...

We'll see. My money's mentally written off now though.
 
My first kickstarter was James Wallis’ Alas Vegas. What a train wreck that was.

At the peak of shitty tidal waves, James was admitting that he hated the project and just wanted it out of his life. Also that he’d made a deal with the Skarka’s Far West kickstarter so that we’d get that too when it got completed.

I mean, who starts another kickstarter campaign while another is already YEARS late, with extremely poor and sparse communication, full of blaming the backers for his woes?

I asked and eventually received a guilt-trippy refund. I will never support anything that guy ever does again. Brilliant writer, but he can go to hell, frankly.
 
TristramEvans said:
The update after the one linked above is interesting...

View attachment 12079

Wondering what missing "context" actually accounts for "I spent 80K of the KS funds for my move"...?
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Pfftahahahaha, I love the followup. "I put my foot in my mouth and made it sound worse than it really is." Really? Foot in your mouth? If you're gonna lie, tell better ones, please.
 
My luck has been pretty good. My first and worst Kickstarter has been Judges Guild City State of the Invincible Overlord.

But let's put that in context.

I spent $20 to get the map PDFs, one print and some apparently hex pads. I'm guessing 80+% of those PDFs were delivered promptly. Win! Then the project goes slow. But I get a free PDF of the original CSotIO and I think I got a free PDF of Tarantis or Tegal Manor. I can't recall exactly. Now in my mind I've clearly entered the this is a win category but others backed for the boom and they are piiiisssed. Radio silence for a few years I think. The comments section gets ugly.

robertsconley robertsconley shows up and makes everything even better. He somehow convinces BB2 to complete the project after BB3 drops the ball.
I'm winning in all this but the book backers are still sour.
 
Welp. Guess my "successful KS" percentage is going down... a little bit.

You'll probably call me crazy, but I'm actually still infinitely more annoyed by the Monte Cook one than this. Even though it doesn't make any rational sense since with Monte I still get the product, although misprinted, while with this more than likely I just wasted money.
But there's just... something... in Monte's jumbled KS which rubs me the wrong way.
 
Bunch said:
robertsconley robertsconley shows up and makes everything even better. He somehow convinces BB2 to complete the project after BB3 drops the ball.
I'm winning in all this but the book backers are still sour.
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Appreciate the shout out.

And speaking of the CSIO kickstarter
www.rpgpub.com

Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches Released!

I am pleased to announce the release of Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches. This is the fourth of four products covering the eighteen maps that encompasses the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting. This product covers four of the maps as detailed below. The four sets combined will cover a region...
www.rpgpub.com www.rpgpub.com

Also look for your backer only post for the discounts.

Enjoy!
 
Brock Savage said:
Holy shit, you are the guys who made The Red Prophet Rises? That is one of the best adventures I read last year. Count me in. I would have backed earlier had I known this project existed.

Edit: AND you guys got Del Teigeler to do some of the art. Awesome.
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Thanks Brock! Advertising is one of our weak points (because I hate doing it). RPR was a lot of fun to put together. Not sure if we will meet the stretch goal for Prince on Vermilion, but keep your eyes and ears open for Palace of Unquiet Repose as we are doing a role reversal and putting that adventure together...from what I read so far, I think you will enjoy it if you liked RPR. And Del Teigeler is awesome!

That example above of someone running a KS and stealing the money is horrible. I've only backed about 11 or so and my impression is that most are done by people who are pretty passionate about their work. Mayhaps not the best project manager skills, but passionate which sells me at least that they will do the best they can to finish the project. I usually throw in a dollar for most KS's and follow along and see how they talk to people in the comments and/or updates. If I can see that passion, then Ill usually jump in.
 
So, there's another update on the Kamigakari mess...

Basically the project lead has posted images of the receipt of payments to various actors (Backerkit, the license holders, the printer etc.).
Then she flat-out admitted that, after having paid everyone she believed was due, she took the rest of the money for herself. With the idea of gaining some money back from sales.

Small little problem with that plan: the printer has gone bust. The 5.5K bucks for the book print run are gone. From the way she worded it, she still hopes to get that money back thanks to a lawyer working pro bono. No idea of the laws there, but if they're anything like ours, unsecured creditors won't ever see their money back.

My tl,dr is that, at this point, the best possible outcome is that the pdf might still come out at some unspecified point in the future. Forget about the phyisical print run, though, unless she strikes rich or something.
 
TristramEvans said:
Sooooo ...confirmation of fraud.
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Honest question: does KS stipulate that funding may only be spent on expenses until the project is complete? If not, this sounds more like stupidity than fraud. I for one never assumed that this was the case.
 
Edgewise said:
Honest question: does KS stipulate that funding may only be spent on expenses until the project is complete? If not, this sounds more like stupidity than fraud. I for one never assumed that this was the case.
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Here's the division of funds posted on the KS...

kscam2.PNG

Notice she was allotted 16.7% for Royalties. Even combined withe the "Emergency Funds", that's 27.9%.

Her posted receipts only account for $22, 000 of $79,485 raised.

So she blew 72.5% of the funding
 
I think she is screwed...


4. How Projects Work
Most of our Terms of Use explain your relationship with Kickstarter. This section is different — it explains the relationship between creators and backers of Kickstarter projects, and who’s responsible for what. This is what you’re agreeing to when you create or back a Kickstarter project.
Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.
Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
  • they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
  • they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
  • they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
  • they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
  • they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
 
Luca said:
she took the rest of the money for herself.
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And if you happen to have recently dug around on Something Awful's SCAM section, you find someone claiming to be her best friend who is making the claim that that didn't happen because she's a pathological liar who goes into depressive episodes and makes claims like that.

I... guess that's supposed to be reassuring in some manner?
 
robertsconley said:
Appreciate the shout out.

And speaking of the CSIO kickstarter
www.rpgpub.com

Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches Released!

I am pleased to announce the release of Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches. This is the fourth of four products covering the eighteen maps that encompasses the Judges Guild Wilderlands setting. This product covers four of the maps as detailed below. The four sets combined will cover a region...
www.rpgpub.com www.rpgpub.com

Also look for your backer only post for the discounts.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...
Your welcome! You really saved that project for a lot of backers.
 
kaulesh said:
And if you happen to have recently dug around on Something Awful's SCAM section, you find someone claiming to be her best friend who is making the claim that that didn't happen because she's a pathological liar who goes into depressive episodes and makes claims like that.

I... guess that's supposed to be reassuring in some manner?
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Sooo a bunch of people have money to a seemingly known pathologic liar and it's turning out bad? Shocking I say!

Seriously though I'm assuming that pathological liar portion is not actually well known. I'm sorry to see anyone lose their money on a project.
 
This is different than a lot of other Kickstarter failures as we seem to have an actual confession of embezzling the money rather than ambiguity as to whether it was simply poor business management.
 
kaulesh said:
And if you happen to have recently dug around on Something Awful's SCAM section, you find someone claiming to be her best friend who is making the claim that that didn't happen because she's a pathological liar who goes into depressive episodes and makes claims like that.

I... guess that's supposed to be reassuring in some manner?
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The Whistle blower?
 
‾\_(ツ)_/‾

I don't know who anyone is. Just noted that it sounded like a clusterfuck and people on pretty much every RPG forum I'm on have been talking about it.
 
kaulesh said:
‾\_(ツ)_/‾

I don't know who anyone is. Just noted that it sounded like a clusterfuck and people on pretty much every RPG forum I'm on have been talking about it.
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Me neither, really... just was wondering which "her" you were meaning. :smile:
 
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