Kickstarter sucks.

Does Kickstarter suck?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 8 11.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 49 71.0%
  • Have a nice day.

    Votes: 12 17.4%

  • Total voters
    69

TristramEvans

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Must be something unique to video game KS

Another thing I've never backed
 

Baulderstone

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Kickstarters are kind of just a continuation of current trends to rush something out and make money then polish it later and charge for dlcs.
Most Kickstarters that I have backed had preview PDFs scoured over by backers looking for errors, and many of them have solicited playtest feedback as well. On average, the final results have been more carefully considered than most of the supplement treadmill books we used to get in the '80s and '90s.
 
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Faylar

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Most Kickstarters that I have backed had preview PDFs scoured over by backers looking for errors, and many of them have solicited playtest feedback as well. On average, the final results have been more carefully considered than most of the supplement treadmill books we used to get in the '80s and '90s.
Fair point, you would know more on that than I. :smile:
 

Tommy Brownell

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Evil Hat just publicly announced - in light of the Kickstarter news mentioned earlier - that they are "reassessing how their platform aligns with our own company values".

Much ado about nothing? Or the first sign of the industry attempting to move away from the platform?
 

David Johansen

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Steve Jackson Games ran an Ogre Indigogo campaign earlier this year. Indigogo seems to have a bad reputation with gamers.
 

TristramEvans

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Evil Hat just publicly announced - in light of the Kickstarter news mentioned earlier - that they are "reassessing how their platform aligns with our own company values".

Much ado about nothing? Or the first sign of the industry attempting to move away from the platform?
I don't know Evil Hat, are they trendsetters in the industry or have any sort of clout?
 

TristramEvans

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Indigogo seems to have a bad reputation with gamers.
Well, I personally find them a bit....suspicious. Don't like some of their policies, and the tendency to see rejected Kickstarters end up there. But I don't know if my opinion reflects that of anyone outside myself. I thought a few weeks back someone earlier in the thread said they only had good experiences with them.
 

Tommy Brownell

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Steve Jackson Games ran an Ogre Indigogo campaign earlier this year. Indigogo seems to have a bad reputation with gamers.
IndieGoGo is a bit controversial because a) they tend to use "flex funding", which means they take the money out even if the goal isn't met and b) they are less prone to cancelling, ah, projects deemed "problematic" by some of the more political vocal folks in creative fields.

I don't know Evil Hat, are they trendsetters in the industry or have any sort of clout?
Publishers of Fate Core.

Well, I personally find them a bit....suspicious. Don't like some of their policies, and the tendency to see rejected Kickstarters end up there. But I don't know if my opinion reflects that of anyone outside myself. I thought a few weeks back someone earlier in the thread said they only had good experiences with them.
That would be me.
 

TristramEvans

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Publishers of Fate Core.
Hmm, well known at least, but I'm not sure if it's going to go anywhere. For a lot of indy RPG creators, KS is the most viable way of finding funding. Is this story tending or whipping up twitter mobs at this point?


That would be me.
Were they RPG projects you backed? How was the experience for you overall in comparison to Kickstarter?
 

Tommy Brownell

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Hmm, well known at least, but I'm not sure if it's going to go anywhere. For a lot of indy RPG creators, KS is the most viable way of finding funding. Is this story tending or whipping up twitter mobs at this point?
As a rule, I avoid Twitter, and this is the only forum I visit anymore...and I'm in kind of an RPG bubble over on Facebook...so I can't say for sure. I happen to follow their page, so I saw their announcement.

Were they RPG projects you backed? How was the experience for you overall in comparison to Kickstarter?
Yup. I haven't had a bad experience...but I do my due diligence as with Kickstarter. By the nature of the beast, I've backed fewer IndieGogo campaigns, but I've had a 100% success rate. It's also the popular choice for publishers in countries not allowed to use Kickstarter.
 

Ladybird

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Hmm, well known at least, but I'm not sure if it's going to go anywhere. For a lot of indy RPG creators, KS is the most viable way of finding funding. Is this story tending or whipping up twitter mobs at this point?
I've seen it going around various political circles I'm in. People aren't happy with KS over it, not sure I'd call it a mob though; it's the people you would expect having the opinions you would expect them to. There are no surprises here.

To be quite honest, I doubt anything will change. KS have very successfully inserted themselves into the hobby games industry as a middleman. If even a big "B tier" publisher like EH is basically reliant on them for pre-production costs, all they can really afford to do is complain about it for a bit before coming back with their next project.
 

TristramEvans

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As a rule, I avoid Twitter, and this is the only forum I visit anymore...and I'm in kind of an RPG bubble over on Facebook...so I can't say for sure.
Same here.

Yup. I haven't had a bad experience...but I do my due diligence as with Kickstarter. By the nature of the beast, I've backed fewer IndieGogo campaigns, but I've had a 100% success rate. It's also the popular choice for publishers in countries not allowed to use Kickstarter.
I didn't know there were countries that couldn't use KS
 

Tommy Brownell

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Yup.

"Project creation is currently available to individuals in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico, and Japan who meet the requirements below.

  • You are 18 years of age or older.*
  • You are a permanent resident of one of the above listed eligible countries.
  • You are creating a project in your own name, or on behalf of a registered legal entity with which you are affiliated.
  • You have an address, bank account, and government-issued ID based in the country that you're creating a project in.**
  • If running your project as an individual, the linked bank account must belong to the person who verified their identity for your project.
  • You have a major credit or debit card.***
*People under the age of 18 can launch projects only in collaboration with an adult or guardian that meets these listed requirements. The adult will need to verify their identity, enter their banking information in project build, and assume the responsibilities for fulfillment of the project, listed in our Terms of Use.

**Citizens of the E.U. are welcome to use a government-issued ID from any E.U. country (such as an E.U. passport, etc.). Note: your project must be run in an E.U. country that is eligible on Kickstarter.

***Citizens of Canada must have a major credit card."
 

TristramEvans

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Yup.

"Project creation is currently available to individuals in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico, and Japan who meet the requirements below.

  • You are 18 years of age or older.*
  • You are a permanent resident of one of the above listed eligible countries.
  • You are creating a project in your own name, or on behalf of a registered legal entity with which you are affiliated.
  • You have an address, bank account, and government-issued ID based in the country that you're creating a project in.**
  • If running your project as an individual, the linked bank account must belong to the person who verified their identity for your project.
  • You have a major credit or debit card.***
*People under the age of 18 can launch projects only in collaboration with an adult or guardian that meets these listed requirements. The adult will need to verify their identity, enter their banking information in project build, and assume the responsibilities for fulfillment of the project, listed in our Terms of Use.

**Citizens of the E.U. are welcome to use a government-issued ID from any E.U. country (such as an E.U. passport, etc.). Note: your project must be run in an E.U. country that is eligible on Kickstarter.

***Citizens of Canada must have a major credit card."
Hmm, too bad no Russia, they've got some great mini casters over there. I've ordered a ton of fan sculpts from Russian guys on Facebook.
 

Trippy

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Most of the problematic Kickstarters I've experienced are nothing to do with the personal rep of the creators. They have everything to do with uncontrolled scaling up of their business model and the difficulties of meeting all demands in a bulk effort. The most well meaning, high integrity creator can still end up flat-footed. In some cases, the extended length of time in the process itself leads to further complications. I've been involved in campaigns where creators have had mental illness, blindness or even died. These are entirely unforseeable events, as are the multitude of mistakes made by the best of people.

Moreover, it is increasingly the case that reputable companies like Evil Hat, Chaosium and others are basically choosing to just not do Kickstarter campaigns for their products.
 

Brock Savage

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In some cases, the extended length of time in the process itself leads to further complications. I've been involved in campaigns where creators have had mental illness, blindness or even died. These are entirely unforseeable events.
I dunno man, at a certain point a person can be so risk-averse that they hinder themselves by missing out on opportunity. Driving is a leading cause of death but you still drive to work every day, right?
 

Tommy Brownell

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Emphasis mine.

Most of the problematic Kickstarters I've experienced are nothing to do with the personal rep of the creators. They have everything to do with uncontrolled scaling up of their business model and the difficulties of meeting all demands in a bulk effort. The most well meaning, high integrity creator can still end up flat-footed. In some cases, the extended length of time in the process itself leads to further complications. I've been involved in campaigns where creators have had mental illness, blindness or even died. These are entirely unforseeable events, as are the multitude of mistakes made by the best of people.

Moreover, it is increasingly the case that reputable companies like Evil Hat, Chaosium and others are basically choosing to just not do Kickstarter campaigns for their products.
As I recall, this plus unexpected shipping price increases meant that the wildly successful Fate Core Kickstarter was not a big financial boon for Evil Hat.

But it's also worth noting that, by their own admission, they were about to launch a new Kickstarter as of tonight, before the Kickstarter/Union busting news (which Kickstarter has, of course, denied) came out.
 

CRKrueger

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Hmmm. Nah, Tristam was good.

A broad discussion of Unionization and Labor Law, under the idiotic standards of today’s Internet, would be political.

Among sane adults, it depends on context...you know, like whether jokes about national or ethnic stereotypes are political. :tongue:

In any case, the fact that two Kickstarter employees are claiming they were fired for attempting to organize a union, which is illegal, is not politics. It’s like stating that two workers are accusing the KS CEO of sexual assault or claiming he embezzled money.

Employees are alleging they broke the law, that’s not politics for Christ’s sake, nor is saying that a company that breaks the law sucks.

You talk about the evils of unionbusting, the evils of unions, the psychopathy of corporations, whatever the hell else you want to drag into it, then you’re being political.

No Politics is one thing, an X-card parody is something else.
 

CRKrueger

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I don't know Evil Hat, are they trendsetters in the industry or have any sort of clout?
No, but they are...hmm, how to say this...one of the gaming companies that is very public with their beliefs and values.
They threatened to leave DTRPG if a certain product that didn’t align with those beliefs wasn’t pulled.
Now they are threatening to leave Kickstarter because KS, allegedly, does not align with those beliefs.

As a company, they certainly have the right not to associate with lawbreakers, and they have the right to make sure everyone on earth knows it.
 

CRKrueger

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Most Kickstarters that I have backed had preview PDFs scoured over by backers looking for errors, and many of them have solicited playtest feedback as well. On average, the final results have been more carefully considered than most of the supplement treadmill books we used to get in the '80s and '90s.
Yeah, if you need to make a comparison to the video game industry, a more apt one would be an early access game, which is close to what Baulderstone is describing.

For most creators that aren’t just using it like a pre-order store, the whole point of KS is so they can release the product properly in a well-polished form.
 

Dumarest

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... fired for attempting to organize a union, which is illegal...
That would depend entirely on what state Kickstarter is incorporated in. In many states you can fire an at-will employee for any reason at all, or no reason. In what state is Kickstarter incorporated?

Edit: I got curious and looked it up. They operate out of Brooklyn, NY but are incorporated in Delaware, renowned for its business-friendly laws and lack of taxes.


I'll let someone else look into the appicable labor laws and any relevant case precedents as I need to get ready to run a Superworld PC roll-up session and a simple bank robbery scenario. :thumbsup:
 
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Dumarest

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Just read that Kickstarter's internal reports say 9% of Kickstarter projects fail to deliver rewards and 8% of dollars pledged went to failed projects:


"Project backers should expect a failure rate of around 1-in-10 projects, and to receive a refund 13% of the time."

Those % seem really high to me, but I wouldn't back a Kickstarter anyway on account of I prefer to see and inspect a product before I buy it. Does that seem high to you?
 

Aos

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Just read that Kickstarter's internal reports say 9% of Kickstarter projects fail to deliver rewards and 8% of dollars pledged went to failed projects:


"Project backers should expect a failure rate of around 1-in-10 projects, and to receive a refund 13% of the time."

Those % seem really high to me, but I wouldn't back a Kickstarter anyway on account of I prefer to see and inspect a product before I buy it. Does that seem high to you?
No, I roll the same way.
 

AsenRG

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Just read that Kickstarter's internal reports say 9% of Kickstarter projects fail to deliver rewards and 8% of dollars pledged went to failed projects:


"Project backers should expect a failure rate of around 1-in-10 projects, and to receive a refund 13% of the time."

Those % seem really high to me, but I wouldn't back a Kickstarter anyway on account of I prefer to see and inspect a product before I buy it. Does that seem high to you?
The odds seem about right to me. But then I've joined dozens of KS without any of them failing to deliver:smile:.
 

Baulderstone

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Just read that Kickstarter's internal reports say 9% of Kickstarter projects fail to deliver rewards and 8% of dollars pledged went to failed projects:


"Project backers should expect a failure rate of around 1-in-10 projects, and to receive a refund 13% of the time."

Those % seem really high to me, but I wouldn't back a Kickstarter anyway on account of I prefer to see and inspect a product before I buy it. Does that seem high to you?
I'm assuming those are the numbers for Kickstarters that actually fund. If you count failure to fund, the numbers are probably a lot higher.

The numbers seem right to me, at least as an RPG backer. Just going anecdotally, failed kickstarters usually get a lot of attention. When you compare that to just how many RPG kickstarters there are overall, it doesn't seem like many of them fail.

I've backed a lot of RPG kickstarters and never had one fail. While I'd like to credit that entirely to my business savvy, I'm also guessing that the odds are strongly in my favor as well.
 

CRKrueger

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IndieGoGo is a bit controversial because a) they tend to use "flex funding", which means they take the money out even if the goal isn't met and b) they are less prone to cancelling, ah, projects deemed "problematic" by some of the more political vocal folks in creative fields.



Publishers of Fate Core.



That would be me.
I’ve never had any problems with Indiegogo.
 

Bunch

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There's a bit of information possibly hidden in the failure to deliver percent. I wonder how many KS projects fail only to deliver certain stretch goals but do succeed at delivering the core product. Of I don't get a set of stretch goals dice but I get three hardcovers and a map it might go down as unfulfilled despite 90% being fulfilled.
 

Belle Sorciere

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And there we go again...:smile:
Yes, they're right to want something for it. But the nature of KS is such that they might not get it, and there might be nobody wrong about that - especially with less-experience designers, where you are taking a risk...possibly because you want a given game to be created.
And if that worst-case scenario happens? Then they must choose whether to act entitled, or not.
It's not entitled to express concerns when something you spent money on hasn't delivered. It is the literal opposite of entitlement. It is in fact quite justified. It doesn't matter whether one can expect all kickstarters one backs to deliver, lack of delivery is still a perfectly good reason to express dissatisfaction. Edit to remove bit that was not appropriate
 
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Faylar

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It's not entitled to express concerns when something you spent money on hasn't delivered. It is the literal opposite of entitlement. It is in fact quite justified. It doesn't matter whether one can expect all kickstarters one backs to deliver, lack of delivery is still a perfectly good reason to express dissatisfaction. Edit to remove bit that was not appropriate
I think it's safe to say that we are not using Entitled to mean people with legitimate complaints... but people who are actually acting entitled. We kind of hashed this a bit already. :smile:
 

Brock Savage

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I don't think anyone here is calling someone with a legit complaint entitled. Entitled behavior is plunking down some $ for a KS project and acting like that makes you a majority shareholder in their company. I think we've all seen people who act like that and it isn't limited to Kickstarter.
 

Dumarest

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Part of the confusion may be that "entitled" now means two mutually contadictory things:
(1) to believe yourself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
(2) to have a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.
 

Faylar

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Part of the confusion may be that "entitled" now means two mutually contadictory things:
(1) to believe yourself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
(2) to have a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.
Good olde English... The language that lurks in dark alleys to club random languages and rummage in their pockets for spare vocabulary....

Being Entitled to something and acting entitled I think are different definitions of that word though. Are they not?
 

Ladybird

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I missed this a few days back, but Olivia Hill posted a great Twitter thread about this fuckup. She gets very... Olivia Hill, as is her brand, but basically this project is pretty fucking dead and she's ended up just as screwed as the rest of us because she was banking on the work.

I've been following the discord chat so you don't have to but frankly it looks about what you'd expect.
 

Bunch

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I missed this a few days back, but Olivia Hill posted a great Twitter thread about this fuckup. She gets very... Olivia Hill, as is her brand, but basically this project is pretty fucking dead and she's ended up just as screwed as the rest of us because she was banking on the work.

I've been following the discord chat so you don't have to but frankly it looks about what you'd expect.
Why did she have to disparage the venerable C64?!?!

What kind of person does that?!
 
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