Kickstarters Thread

[Necrozius]

So I read the quickstart rules and watched the video posted above.

Regarding stat blocks, I think everyone is getting it wrong.

It appears that the Enemy stat block represents an entire opposing force, not each individual. So a single stat block for Cannon Fodder abstracts a gang of many enemies (when their combed Grit is done, the heroes have defeated this mob). Conversely, for stronger enemies, that same stat block structure abstractly represents fewer, albeit stronger foes. If you have a single stat block for ONE OPPONENT... that's serious business (ie, it takes as long to take that one individual out compared to a dozen mooks).

If this is really how it is intended to work, it makes a lot of sense for the needing to reload on a "miss", because you're taking many shots. There's a bit of abstraction going on, and I really like it (again, if this is true).

It also follows action movie logic. The more enemies the heroes face, the less of a threat each individual foe is. Conversely, the fewer they are, the more dangerous. Like the Ninja rule. 20 ninjas? Everyone, even the bookish scientist can knock a few out. Just 3? Oh crap they're the Three Hell Dragons... better watch out.

After reading the sample scenario, I really think that I'm right. When a gang of thugs attacks the heroes, we're not told how many there are. Also, the stat block is in plural and seems to represent this opposing force.

Edit: combat rules: when an enemy acts during the "Reaction phase" EVERYONE has to roll defence against he enemy stat block. I'm 100% certain that the enemy stat block is an abstraction of a mob.

If I'm right, then this really kicks ass.

 

[Necrozius]

oracular dice interpretation

I dunno it doesn't seem nearly as bad as, say FFG Star Wars or WFRP 3e.

The only symbol that matters is the snake eyes symbol in a very specific context (a gamble, where the player asks the DM for a +1 bonus, but if they get any snake eyes they take damage). Otherwise it's just looking for pairs. Multiple pairs are bonus benefits (perhaps).

I quite like it, personally. I know players who LOVE the gambling side of any games that they play. I don't have any games like this yet (Savage Worlds turned out to be kind of a let down for me, personally).

 

[johnmarron]

Necrozius is right about the enemy grit track representing a mob of enemies, not an individual (unless it's a very powerful individual). I also disagree with the idea that there is any "oracular dice interpretation" of the rolls. It's super straight forward - you look for sets of matching dice. The more dice in the set, the greater the level of success. No interpretation needed. Players also like the "push your luck aspect of the re-rolls.

I've run a good bit of Broken Compass, and have run the demo scenario for Outgunned, and at the table, the system plays very fast and helps me keep up the "action movie" pace as GM.

 

[Necrozius]

HA I was right. I got confirmation from one of the designers on Discord.

Enemy stat blocks represent a group of individuals (narratively, you can describe any number of them for dramatic effect, aka Ninja principle I mentioned earlier). But this makes the "must reload on a miss" rule a lot more understandable.

EDIT:

The Law of Inverse Ninjas: The probability of a group of ninjas winning a battle in a film is inversely proportional to how many of them there are.

 

[CRKrueger]

Yeah...just simple matching...

"If you score a higher success than needed, the Director can grant you an even better outcome than you wanted, or give you an important advantage.

If you score a lower success, you can try to do something to mitigate (partially!) the consequences of your failure.

If you score more successes than needed, you can use them to take extra actions.

If you score a Jackpot! you become the Director for a turn."

Yeah, all the possible results are perfectly straightforward. There's no interpretation here, no having to come up with the narrative results of higher successes, or lower successes...except for the fact, that it's clearly stated in the rules that you do.

Oh, and...

"Three = O, One = Three
1 greater success is worth as much as 3 smaller successes, and 3 smaller successes are worth as much as 1 greater success.
This means you can spend 1 Critical Success like 3 Basic Successes, and 1 Extreme Success like 3 Critical Successes. Conversely, you can combine 3 Basic Successes into 1 Critical Success, and 3 Critical Successes into 1 Extreme Success."

Yeah, simple pattern matching...no figuring out on the fly whether it's better to combine or divide successes so you can get extra actions or get the GM, err Director, to have to come up with a narrative doohickus (exactly like Genesys and WFRP3)... except that's a choice specifically outlined in the QuickStart.

Every roll perfectly straightforward. No additional decision-making as to how you're going to shift up and down the success tree, no additional narrative rationale needed to be created in response to the results, no possibility of the dice granting a player complete GM Fiat authority for one turn. None of that...oh wait...

Actually all of that is in there because that's the whole point of the damn system.

Love the system if you want to, more power to you. It is what it is, however, and does what it does, I hope by design, because that's one helluva mistake if they didn't intend it to be that way.

Traditional? Yeah, it's a Narrative RPG fully in the tradition of CORTEX, Genesys, etc.

 

[Necrozius]

Every roll perfectly straightforward. No additional decision-making as to how you're going to shift up and down the success tree, no additional narrative rationale needed to be created in response to the results, no possibility of the dice granting a player complete GM Fiat authority for one turn. None of that...oh wait...

Actually all of that is in there because that's the whole point of the damn system.

Ok, fair enough.

I know better than to argue with you about... well anything, to be honest.

I still feel that the system "feels" better than Fate or WFRP 3e, but SHRUG.

Edit, not sure why CRKrueger 's post is so abrasive and annoyed. What the hell did I say to trigger THAT?

 

[Acmegamer]

Ok, fair enough.

I know better than to argue with you about... well anything, to be honest.

I still feel that the system "feels" better than Fate or WFRP 3e, but SHRUG.

I'll agree that system feels better than Fate, which is a reason why I did consider it. I won't even consider backing a Fate, PbtA or Genesis mechanics system personally. I'll pick up the occasional book which uses those mechanics, mostly though because the lore/background might have me curious.

 

[CRKrueger]

Ok, fair enough.

I know better than to argue with you about... well anything, to be honest.

I still feel that the system "feels" better than Fate or WFRP 3e, but SHRUG.

Edit, not sure why CRKrueger 's post is so abrasive and annoyed. What the hell did I say to trigger THAT?

Not really you, more the other poster, should have quoted. The “totally traditional” argument for such an obviously deliberate and painstakingly put together narrative mechanical structure was annoying 15 years ago. Now it’s more like…

At this point, if it was on purple or brown, I’d assume a trolling attempt, but since it’s here, Tenser’s Glasses of Enthusiasm is probably the culprit.

How a mechanic feels is important, it can make the difference between bouncing off a game or digging in. It doesn’t change what a mechanic does though.

 

[3rik]

 

[Silverlion]

HA I was right. I got confirmation from one of the designers on Discord.

Enemy stat blocks represent a group of individuals (narratively, you can describe any number of them for dramatic effect, aka Ninja principle I mentioned earlier). But this makes the "must reload on a miss" rule a lot more understandable.

EDIT:

I quite literally used this rule to represent BESM2E Stormtroopers for a Star Wars game some 20 years ago. It worked well!

 

[rumble]

I'm struggling to NOT back this one. Other than Knave 2.0, it's the only game to catch my eye in the last month.

 

[TardisCaptain]

OK, this kickstarter sounded really interesting. A guy designed an adventure back in 1983 and recently came across it again. He's releasing it and also doing an update to it that could include 5E and DCC versions. I love seeing creativity like this. It is stuff I was doing back then as well.

 

[NeonNecromancer]

Forgive a bit of shameless self-promotion...


The Action! System™ was the second commercially-supported set of tabletop RPG rules ever to be published under the first edition of the Open Game License (OGL). It was originally released by Gold Rush Games in 2001 and used by multiple publishers between the years 2001 and 2005. It is a generic system that was designed to be incredibly similar to a variety of late-90s RPGs, specifically to ones that were used in anime RPGs.

Now, 20 years later, we're putting out a new release for this OGL pioneer.

The Action! System does not mimic any single game system. It is not a "clone" or a drop-in replacement for most games. However, the game systems the Action! System most closely resembles are: Fuzion (Bubblegum Crisis/VOTOMS/DBZ/etc.), Interlock (Cyberpunk/Mekton/etc.), HERO (Champions), and Tri-Stat (Big Eyes, Small Mouth)

 

[Gabriel]

I'm still looking this one over. Whether I'd go in on this or not would depend on the stretch goals.

The regular limited version doesn't really catch my eye, but I'm sure that one will be available at retail. The super mega deluxe limited doesn't do anything for me either and the $700 price tag isn't enticing.

At the moment, I'm thinking this one is one I'll just wait for retail, but maybe they'll sweeten the pot.

 

[Stan]

I'm still looking this one over. Whether I'd go in on this or not would depend on the stretch goals.

The regular limited version doesn't really catch my eye, but I'm sure that one will be available at retail. The super mega deluxe limited doesn't do anything for me either and the $700 price tag isn't enticing.

At the moment, I'm thinking this one is one I'll just wait for retail, but maybe they'll sweeten the pot.

Yea, $48 for all the pdfs ($79 if you want the vtt files) or $59 + shipping for just the phb hardcover feels like too much for something that will be 90% the same as 5e. But they've got a quarter a million dollars on day one so there must be a market for people who want to feel like they're sticking it to WOTC.

I'll wait and see if there are any bits worth adopting into my game and zoink those.

 

[Rogerdee]

For those that hate the 5e Spelljammer stuff, here are a few alternative


Now I know not everyone is a keen 5e fan, but now we have Savage Pathfinder, converting to SWADE should be a cinch.

 

[Acmegamer]

I'm still looking this one over. Whether I'd go in on this or not would depend on the stretch goals.

The regular limited version doesn't really catch my eye, but I'm sure that one will be available at retail. The super mega deluxe limited doesn't do anything for me either and the $700 price tag isn't enticing.

At the moment, I'm thinking this one is one I'll just wait for retail, but maybe they'll sweeten the pot.

Happy to see Kobold Press continuing to do well and expand on what they do. That said, I just don't really care to get more DnD related (related meaning any DnD variant) material even from them.

 

[Acmegamer]

Yea, $48 for all the pdfs ($79 if you want the vtt files) or $59 + shipping for just the phb hardcover feels like too much for something that will be 90% the same as 5e. But they've got a quarter a million dollars on day one so there must be a market for people who want to feel like they're sticking it to WOTC.

I'll wait and see if there are any bits worth adopting into my game and zoink those.

Good point. That's how I tend to feel about most of these DnD variants myself. I ended falling within the same frame of mind with the EN World recent DnD material as well.

 

[Allen Varney]

For those that hate the 5e Spelljammer stuff, here are a few alternative

Kelfecil is the guy who pays freelancers two cents a word and boasts about it.

 

[Imaginos]

And now Outgunned has a superhero action flick as a stretch goal. That makes it harder for me to back out of it.

And I decided to drop it. Do I really need more RPGs to fill a shelf that won’t get played? Nay, I say thee, nay!

Instead I will invest in plastic models that I have to build and paint so they can sit in their box untouched until collectibility overwhelms their intrinsic dust collecting value.

 

[CRKrueger]

Instead I will invest in plastic models that I have to build and paint so they can sit in their box untouched until collectibility overwhelms their intrinsic dust collecting value.

This is the Way.

 

[chuckdee]

And I decided to drop it. Do I really need more RPGs to fill a shelf that won’t get played? Nay, I say thee, nay!

Instead I will invest in plastic models that I have to build and paint so they can sit in their box untouched until collectibility overwhelms their intrinsic dust collecting value.

I gave up plastic models a while ago, so I don't have that excuse. I will show it off when I get it to get everyone sad that they dropped it, and feel superior and realize that my getting it wasn't FOMO (when it probably really is)

 

[Necrozius]

I know that the tide has turned against Outgunned (the Pub doesn’t seem to approve of the system, but I quite like it, tossing a few dice around in experimenting), but I don’t have a game system that fills this niche (as stated before, I am not interested in Fate Core or Savage Worlds). I have no generic “action” or “pulp” games.

So I’m going into this one. I do wish that they had a “just the books please” pledge level. I don’t really need all that extra stuff but oh well.

 

[Imaginos]

I know that the tide has turned against Outgunned (the Pub doesn’t seem to approve of the system, but I quite like it, tossing a few dice around in experimenting), but I don’t have a game system that fills this niche (as stated before, I am not interested in Fate Core or Savage Worlds). I have no generic “action” or “pulp” games.

So I’m going into this one. I do wish that they had a “just the books please” pledge level. I don’t really need all that extra stuff but oh well.

I’m not against the game. I quite like what I’ve seen so far. My main thing is I have too many ROGs that aren’t getting played. Spending the $ on wargaming that does get played more is just my preferred direction.

 

[Gabriel]

I know that the tide has turned against Outgunned (the Pub doesn’t seem to approve of the system, but I quite like it, tossing a few dice around in experimenting), but I don’t have a game system that fills this niche (as stated before, I am not interested in Fate Core or Savage Worlds). I have no generic “action” or “pulp” games.

So I’m going into this one. I do wish that they had a “just the books please” pledge level. I don’t really need all that extra stuff but oh well.

Where did the Pub turn against Outgunned? Did I miss something? Other than the Kickstarter thread I haven't seen any discussion of it. Over in the "something cool" thread it seemed people were excited about the earlier related game Broken Compass.

That said, if you're only interested in the books and not the cards, dice, and other knick-knacks, it would almost certainly be cheaper to just wait until the retail release and order the books at a discount from an online store. Not to mention, it would be money spent next year instead of now.

 

[chuckdee]

I know that the tide has turned against Outgunned (the Pub doesn’t seem to approve of the system, but I quite like it, tossing a few dice around in experimenting), but I don’t have a game system that fills this niche (as stated before, I am not interested in Fate Core or Savage Worlds). I have no generic “action” or “pulp” games.

So I’m going into this one. I do wish that they had a “just the books please” pledge level. I don’t really need all that extra stuff but oh well.

Yeah- I have that problem with a lot of the games I've gone in on recently. I end up with all of this additional stuff that I'll never use, in order to get all the material.

That said, if you're only interested in the books and not the cards, dice, and other knick-knacks, it would almost certainly be cheaper to just wait until the retail release and order the books at a discount from an online store. Not to mention, it would be money spent next year instead of now.

I've rarely seen that to be true, especially since at retail unless they have a specific policy (Bits & Mortar or a policy like Modiphius) you don't get the PDFs for the same price.

 

[Rogerdee]

Kelfecil is the guy who pays freelancers two cents a word and boasts about it.

That's not good.
I have backed it, and think it might be a good product.

 

[chuckdee]

That's not good.
I have backed it, and think it might be a good product.

As someone who has worked as a writer, I can't support anyone that pays people that rate.

 

[sdmsec]

As someone who has worked as a writer, I can't support anyone that pays people that rate.

Assuming no one is holding a gun to their heads, it seems these writers find it acceptable. Maybe, they're trying to get their foot in the door, get something to show in portfolio.... I'm not sure why, but it is a two-way street.

<Edit>
p.s. I don't think it's smart for an employer to brag about how little he pays (assuming the upstream poster is stating that correctly). It would make me question the quality of the work and the experience or capability of the writers. It would also tend to make other writers with better portfolios and self-confidence avoid the company.

 

[chuckdee]

Assuming no one is holding a gun to their heads, it seems these writers find it acceptable. Maybe, they're trying to get their foot in the door, get something to show in portfolio.... I'm not sure why, but it is a two-way street.

Not really. Just because someone is willing to take it for whatever reason, doesn't make it right. And you can indeed pay for it down the line, i.e. word of mouth making you the place were people seek as a last resort and you not being able to find talent in the long run or people half-assing their work. You get what you pay for, and you should be willing to pay for good work.

I just can't support that ethic.

 

[Bunch]

Not really. Just because someone is willing to take it for whatever reason, doesn't make it right. And you can indeed pay for it down the line, i.e. word of mouth making you the place were people seek as a last resort and you not being able to find talent in the long run or people half-assing their work. You get what you pay for, and you should be willing to pay for good work.

I just can't support that ethic.

So where does something like Alarms & Excursions fit in this? I don't think you get paid at all. You get a comp copy. I'm not entirely against your argument but what makes that ethical and low pay not ethical?

 

[chuckdee]

So where does something like Alarms & Excursions fit in this? I don't think you get paid at all. You get a comp copy. I'm not entirely against your argument but what makes that ethical and low pay not ethical?

I think contributions are a different thing. Underpaying someone is a different thing from volunteer and/or hobby work. Work in exchange for other work is also pretty scummy and there's an understandable backlash against that now.

 

[Bunch]

I think contributions are a different thing. Underpaying someone is a different thing from volunteer and/or hobby work. Work in exchange for other work is also pretty scummy and there's an understandable backlash against that now.

But there are folks who are pissed at people publishing for free largely along the lines that free/low pay makes it so other people can't make a living competing against that. So for me I'm trying to wrap my head around what makes working for free just to scratch a personal itch mor but somehow that same person saying "eh getting $50 ($.02/word) would be nice." Is immoral.
I'm all for saying "look this guy pays low rates so be careful buying from this guy because it might be crap" but I dunno if it's amoral to make a business around employing the cheapest workers. Just depends I guess if the people taking that wage have a choice or not.

 

[chuckdee]

But there are folks who are pissed at people publishing for free largely along the lines that free/low pay makes it so other people can't make a living competing against that. So for me I'm trying to wrap my head around what makes working for free just to scratch a personal itch mor but somehow that same person saying "eh getting $50 ($.02/word) would be nice." Is immoral.
I'm all for saying "look this guy pays low rates so be careful buying from this guy because it might be crap" but I dunno if it's amoral to make a business around employing the cheapest workers. Just depends I guess if the people taking that wage have a choice or not.

As someone who freelances in the industry, .02 is not a wage that is even worth it. And any writer should know that. Note that I'm not making a judgement call for everyone else - I just said I can't support it and think that it's shameful and wrong. And having been on the other side of that equation in my real job, I know that the power of the two positions isn't equitable. Sometimes - you just need work. And can't afford to turn it down. That's one of the things the writers' strike is about.

As for free stuff, I'm not in agreement - if someone wants to do things for free, that's on them. It's the same argument that people make against open source, and it's a spurious argument IMO.

 

[Bunch]

As someone who freelances in the industry, .02 is not a wage that is even worth it. And any writer should know that. Note that I'm not making a judgement call for everyone else - I just said I can't support it and think that it's shameful and wrong. And having been on the other side of that equation in my real job, I know that the power of the two positions isn't equitable. Sometimes - you just need work. And can't afford to turn it down. That's one of the things the writers' strike is about.

As for free stuff, I'm not in agreement - if someone wants to do things for free, that's on them. It's the same argument that people make against open source, and it's a spurious argument IMO.

So let's take your case. You can write for a low price or look for a higher price or do an entirely different job that pays more that you'd earn at $0.02/word.
I have heard the argument the only job I can do is write for RPG publishers! But honestly I don't tend to buy it. The RPG industry is as far as I can tell the ass end of the writing world.
I can see this argument more as a factory owner in a small town where you're setting the wage for a system or area but RPGs? I dunno that's hard to make an argument that it's bringing the industry down. Am I just way off?

 

[chuckdee]

So let's take your case. You can write for a low price or look for a higher price or do an entirely different job that pays more that you'd earn at $0.02/word.
I have heard the argument the only job I can do is write for RPG publishers! But honestly I don't tend to buy it. The RPG industry is as far as I can tell the ass end of the writing world.
I can see this argument more as a factory owner in a small town where you're setting the wage for a system or area but RPGs? I dunno that's hard to make an argument that it's bringing the industry down. Am I just way off?

You're arguing something different than what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that I can't support someone who pays their writers so little and values them so little.

You're saying that it's an indictment of the whole industry.

I know what standard is, and that's a lot less. So I choose not to support someone like that. That's all that I'm saying.

 

[Voros]

So let's take your case. You can write for a low price or look for a higher price or do an entirely different job that pays more that you'd earn at $0.02/word.
I have heard the argument the only job I can do is write for RPG publishers! But honestly I don't tend to buy it. The RPG industry is as far as I can tell the ass end of the writing world.
I can see this argument more as a factory owner in a small town where you're setting the wage for a system or area but RPGs? I dunno that's hard to make an argument that it's bringing the industry down. Am I just way off?

The problem in rpgs I think is the blurry line between hobbyists and (semi) professionals.

Long time ago when I was a gigging music writer there were zines, where you wrote for free and magazines, papers, early-music websites, where I expected, and was, paid.

Not so today with rpgs.

The line between zines as for hobbyists/obessives/budding writers and newspapers/magazines for semi-pros who needed to be paid was pretty clear. Some zines started to look pretty slick by the early 90s due to desktop publishing software but even the biggest zines barely generated enough to be considered a day job, I would guess.

 

[Fenris-77]

Shit, I just missed this, it looks grand...

 

[finarvyn]

Yeah, one thing I hate about Kickstarts is that there usually isn't a late buy-in option. I can't count the number of times that I found an awesome KS only to find that it had already been closed.

 

[AsenRG]

Yeah, one thing I hate about Kickstarts is that there usually isn't a late buy-in option. I can't count the number of times that I found an awesome KS only to find that it had already been closed.

Why? I've seen >1 that had a late buy-in option. It always pays to contact them on KS, IMLE!