Kingdom Death

thedungeondelver

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I'm not linking to any of the minis. At all. Especially not "that one".

Jesus Christ why would you own those. Why. It's like FATAL given 3d form. Why, dear god why.

Look, I'm a guy who is entirely OK with he/him pronouns as default in RPGs. Naked boobies in AD&D don't phase me one bit. The City Encounters prostitute subtable in the Dungeon Masters Guide is a harmless bit of fun. Gore in T&T? Yes please more. But good God, if I ever sat down at a table and someone pulled out a bunch of the KD minis, I would politely excuse myself and go play a different game. And I'm a guy who thinks the fuss over Slannesh troops in 40k (and WHFB) is useless PC virtue signaling.

(While I'm on the topic I feel the same way about Dennis Mize's "Slave Auction" mini set, another "excuse me while I go get my dice" <footsteps><door opening and closing><car door><car starting><driving away> moment if they were put out on the table.)

There's plenty of room for cheesecake on the tabletop but when your cheesecake has a photo spread from a 90s era Penthouse magazine (you know the era I'm talking about) or a still frame from a Hentai airbrushed on it, it's time to reevaluate what you're doing in this hobby.
 

Necrozius

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The pin-up figures are optional collector's items, I believe. The core game and main expansions aren't all that cheesecakey. Some are creepy in a sexualised horror way, like HRGiger, though.
 

CRKrueger

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I'm not a big fan of the pin-up aesthetic, especially the modern incarnation with the watermelon sized breasts. However, most of the minis aren't that, but almost everything is sold out, so who cares about a boutique miniatures game that will never be in a store and you'll never find anyone to play with.
 

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Yeah actually Tristram's right: it's more of a grim dark surrealistic horror version of Warhammer Quest. Sort of.
 

David Johansen

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I can't help but wonder what all those girls are eating in the bleak post apocalyptic wastelands you know? You can see they aren't starving anyhow.
 

TristramEvans

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The Kingdom Death anime-esque pinup miniatures are for the most part completely separate from the Monster boardgame. The women in Monster look like this:


I own and have played Monster, if anyone has any questions.
 

Baulderstone

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I've played the game as well. I hadn't heard about the pinup minis until now, but they really don't seem to fit the tone of the game as well. The actual game is somewhat mature in its content, but not in a particularly prurient way.
 

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I'm not linking to any of the minis. At all. Especially not "that one".
Do you mean the Wet Nurse? Or another one?



I am incredibly impressed by the Kindgom Death creativity. Definitely great stuff for Slaanesh or Carcosa or any dark fantasy. Definitely dark, dark, dark fantasy.

I don't worry about plastic boobies at the game table. (I'm in LA, plenty of fake boobs to go around) My concern is players getting into some fetish at the table and those players don't need minis to get their freak on. The KD stuff are clearly horrific monsters and mutants to be feared and/or destroyed.
 

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Tristram, Necrozius and Baulderstone, please tell us LOTS about gameplay.

How complicated? How fun? Solo or group play?

I understand its loooong gameplay. How is it broken up?

How's the replay?

Do you expect a video game to come from it?
 

TristramEvans

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Tristram, Necrozius and Baulderstone, please tell us LOTS about gameplay.

How complicated? How fun? Solo or group play?
Well, first off I really enjoyed it. the game is, from my POV, masterful at creating/evoking a very specific and unique mood that doesn't quite match any popular fantasy subgenre I can think of. The closest description I can manage would be "Primordial Myth meets David Lynch."

The rules are relatively complex from a boardgame standpoint, but rather simple from an RPG perspective, if you catch my meaning. I'd say in general its pretty quick to pick up and flows intuitively. There are numerous fiddly bits, as characters gain abilities and equipment. However, unlike an RPG, the "main character" of the game is your tribe, and the characters each player plays will certainly die and be replaced several times during the course of the game. Its the survival and growth of the tribe thats important, even as it can be heartbreaking to lose a character you've grown fond of, and I say that as a strength of the game. It manages to evoke emotions. During play my friends and I experienced heartbreak, horror, suspense, relief, despair, and hope in equal measure. Failure and success alike in the game tends to be bittersweet.

Its possible to play solo, but I can't imagine it would be the same experience or nearly as rewarding/enjoyable. Then again, some people solo wargame, something I'd never consider, so other people's mileage may vary.

I understand its loooong gameplay. How is it broken up?
There are three phases to the game: Settlement, Hunt, and Showdown, each making up the cycle of a year in the game. The largest amount of time in the game is actually taken up in planning. In this way I'd say the game shares a gene with Diplomacy, in that 90% of what happens is not specifically dictated by the rules. The players are together building their civilization, creating a safe home for their Survivors.

How's the replay?
Its impossible to describe the amount of choices and randomized events in the game. I can't imagine any two games playing out the same.

Do you expect a video game to come from it?
I guess it could. But I'm personally so into the visceral experience of playing with painted miniatures at the long table in the den by the fireplace, lights dimmed, surrounded by friends, with good drink and food, that I wouldn't for second bother with a video game instead.
 

Bunch

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Local fellow is selling a core set 1.5 for $380 USD. For the folks who've played it, do you think it's worth it?
 

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Do you mean the Wet Nurse? Or another one?
I'm amused by the boobs that look like eyes, only until you see the face down on the muzzle. Also, not watermelon-sized, so I assume that @CRKrueger will be totally ok with it ;)
 

TristramEvans

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Local fellow is selling a core set 1.5 for $380 USD. For the folks who've played it, do you think it's worth it?
Well, thats 150 less than retail, but its really a personal question as to if its worth that much to you. I was fine to shell out around $800 for the KS, but for most people I imagine they would regard that as insane money to drop on a boardgame.

It IS a very good game, full of atmosphere, uniquely beautiful. There should be enough review videos on Youtube by now to decide if its something that specifically speaks to your tastes though. I will also say, though, that it has nigh-unlimited replay value, especially the more expansions you add in. No two games will play the same.
 

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Well, thats 150 less than retail, but its really a personal question as to if its worth that much to you. I was fine to shell out around $800 for the KS, but for most people I imagine they would regard that as insane money to drop on a boardgame.

It IS a very good game, full of atmosphere, uniquely beautiful. There should be enough review videos on Youtube by now to decide if its something that specifically speaks to your tastes though. I will also say, though, that it has nigh-unlimited replay value, especially the more expansions you add in. No two games will play the same.
Damn you. I bought it.

It’s cheaper than a gaming console and I’ve spent almost as much on Zombicide Black plague.

I’ve been obsessed with Kingdom Death for so many years. I actually felt a physical shiver as I hit “Pay”.

I will likely sell off some other games to reduce the blow, but I’m not too worried. That Black Friday sale price was just TOO GOOD to ignore. This was my chance.
 

TristramEvans

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Damn you. I bought it.

It’s cheaper than a gaming console and I’ve spent almost as much on Zombicide Black plague.

I’ve been obsessed with Kingdom Death for so many years. I actually felt a physical shiver as I hit “Pay”.

I will likely sell off some other games to reduce the blow, but I’m not too worried. That Black Friday sale price was just TOO GOOD to ignore. This was my chance.

Welcome to the party!

I know that thrill and sense of doubt hitting "accept" on the first order is, but trust me, I've never once regretted my purchase. And getting that huge box is going to make for a VERY happy Christmas this year. I know when I first got the box I just sat there going through the contents in abject joy over the pure aesthetic indulgence.

Are you planning to paint the miniatures? It's not necessary, there's something archetypal in leaving them like some marble Roman statues, but if so, I highly recommend to subscribing to Sorastro's Painting on YouTube who has an entire series devoted to KD. The King's Man video just went up on Patreon, so will probably be going public in about a week.
 

Necrozius

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Welcome to the party!

I know that thrill and sense of doubt hitting "accept" on the first order is, but trust me, I've never once regretted my purchase. And getting that huge box is going to make for a VERY happy Christmas this year. I know when I first got the box I just sat there going through the contents in abject joy over the pure aesthetic indulgence.

Are you planning to paint the miniatures? It's not necessary, there's something archetypal in leaving them like some marble Roman statues, but if so, I highly recommend to subscribing to Sorastro's Painting on YouTube who has an entire series devoted to KD. The King's Man video just went up on Patreon, so will probably be going public in about a week.
Cheers!

I wonder how long it will take to ship?

I definitely love the white marble aesthetic. I doubt I’ll do anything except maybe some day paint them uniformly to REALLY look like marble.
 

TristramEvans

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Cheers!

I wonder how long it will take to ship?

I definitely love the white marble aesthetic. I doubt I’ll do anything except maybe some day paint them uniformly to REALLY look like marble.

I expect it will only take a few weeks; they have shipping hubs in the US and Canada, though there might be some delay depending on how overwhelmed they were by Black Friday orders. I expect before Xmas though.

If you really want to play up the marble aesthetic, I'd prime the minis ivory and give each a very light wash (2:1 water to wash) of Waywatcher green.
 

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Whenever I see the name of this game I chuckle as it is just so metal.
 

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My friends who play KD have only great things to say about the gameplay. I'm always impressed by the stories that apparently are generated out of the random events.

I'm surprised we haven't seen a RPG come out of it.
 

TristramEvans

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My friends who play KD have only great things to say about the gameplay. I'm always impressed by the stories that apparently are generated out of the random events.

I'm surprised we haven't seen a RPG come out of it.
I was thinking about that after the thread to that regard. It would be difficult to pul off; the RPG would need a new premise to focus on, you've got the Hunt, the downtime where your tribe advances, and the occassional Nemesis encounter. There isn't far to go from there. There's also the issue that we don't know the whole story yet. And it would be like a perpetual character funnel, as individuals don't last long at all. Closest RPG equivalent I can think of is Black Sun Deathcrawl,.

But the Game's expansions are adding more RPG-like elements.
 

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I admit that I’m quite intimidated by the assembly of the miniatures. I’m thankful that I found this link though (starts off with general tips, then has instructions for all the individual sprues).

 

TristramEvans

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I admit that I’m quite intimidated by the assembly of the miniatures. I’m thankful that I found this link though (starts off with general tips, then has instructions for all the individual sprues).


I'd say on the whole the Kingdom Death Minis are easieer to assemble than the average Games Workshop Kit, alot of it is intuitive and they fit together ckearly. For example this is the assembly for the Lion




I daresay one could assemble that without instructions. I didn't have any difficulty with any of them,.

ButI have to say that thev site you got linked there rankled me, just based on the "beginner's advice", whish is , on the whole, horrible. It's such a blatant example of a complete noob, someone who knows next to nothing abourt what they are talking about, attemptng to educate others. I know that's par for the course for the internet, and I'm sure it was done with the best of intentions, but believe me when I say the best thing you can do is ignore everything they said.

Now I haven't looked at any of their individual mini tutorials yet, I just read the advice for beginniners, but it made me facepalm hard enough that I have to take it apart.

OK, to start with, don't buy GW hobby products. GW makes some good minis, and their paint is very high quality, (even if they charge twice as much or more than other paints that are equally of high quality or much better (*cough* Warcolours *cough*). But GW's hobby products - brushes, clippers, base stands, etc. are of middling quality at best, with the same premium prices. You can pick up a pair of sprue cutters for a third of the price GW charges that are actually made of high quality ss industrial blades that aren't going to dull after a few months of use (yeah, GW wants you to keep buying from them, and putting substandard blades that need replacing is one of the more subtle ways).

Secondly, don't use "plastic glue". It's absolute crap for the type of injection mold plastic used on finer minis like KD. You know that pic of the Gorm model wrapped in rubber bands to hold it while the glue dries? Yeah, I laughed out loud at that. There is absolutely no reason you should EVER need to do that. THAT is an example of using shitty sub-standard glue. Probably way tooo much of it too if drying takes long enough to even construct that sort of framework on top of the mini. It's just so ridiculous, it's like watching someone offering instructions on how to cook a hotdog using a bic lighter.


This? This is madness.


You want " cyanoacrylate" glue for asembling these minis. This comes in two varieties - thick "gap-filling", and thin "insta-cure". These take about 20 seconds to set, as long as you don't use too much. The most common mistake for people new to the hobby (besides not thinning their paints) is to use too much glue, which not only extends the drying time, but also leads to weaker bonds, as you are essentially gluing glue to glue instead of two pieces of the mini together. Cyanoacrylate has a strong enough bond to hold together metal minis without pinning, but will not distort or melt the details on plastic minis. Plastic glue, on the other hand, is like a step away from using rubber cement.

Combine cyanoacrylate with an accelarator like "Insta-Set" (https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catal...pjEHOLgRDK1NfZzfkGY2_Kd_b5o9r-EhoCl0YQAvD_BwE), and your mini will be ready to go in seconds.
 

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sorry for the interruption but this is kinda important (to me, at least) is the Gorilla Glue super glue I get from Home Depot a good glue for minis? The one I've been using is a cyanoacrylate but it was also the first glue I pulled off the shelf.

More on topic, me and my game group missed out on the Kingdom Death 1.5 kickstarter so I'm really enjoying the in-depth discussion from people who backed it.
 

Necrozius

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A funny thing about some of the reviews I’ve read about the game play: I’ve seen several complaints that there are too many things to manage, that the sheets are too complex. That’s strange to me, perhaps I’m used to managing lots of stuff in RPGs, especially as a DM? KD’s rules seem a lot easier to me than, say, Arkham Horror or WFRP3e!
 

TristramEvans

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I have not used Gorilla Glue, but from a google search apparently there are 2 varieties - "Gorilla Super Glue" is a brand of cyanoacrylate, so that should work fine. Regular Gorilla Glue, however, is a polyurethane, which you don't want to use.

Additionally, however, according to what I read, Gorilla makes a type of accelerator (or its includes with some products, it's hard to tell) called "Zip Kicker" that makes the bonds brittle, so you want to avoid that.

Overall, I'd say if you're not sure it's best to test by gluing two pieces of sprue together first. As always, you want a very small amount of glue, only on one side, and then hold it together (but not too tight, you want the chemical reaction "room to breath" - literally, as cyanoacrylate is activated by oxygen. Ideally the bond should set within 20-30 seconds.

Another trick, if you're dealing with a particularly heavy piece, is to dust one side of the join with baking soda. This reacts with cyanoacrylate to create a think and hard resin almost instantly.

Edit: oh, and even if you skipped the KS, the game is istill available. Unlike a lot of games where there's no point getting the retail because of all the stuff missing from the KS add-ons, I'd say KD is more than complete with just the basic box. It's got innumerable replayability, and an average campaign (once you're used to the rules), can last about a month (ddepending how often you play, I do @3 hour long sessions, usually about 2-3 Lantern years.)

Moreover, all the KS expansions are periodically made available when one does want to add onto the game (I recommend starting with the Gorm and Flower Knight expansions - the Gorm can be substituted for the White Lion for a Hunt, so gives some instant variety to the early play sessions, and the Flower Knight provides a really great side quest for early in the game).

KD only has one sale a year - the Black Friday sale that just passed, during which they bring back into availability everything released for the game so far. Tis is the best time to jump on board (outside of the KS), and over the last few years every BF I just grab a few more expansions - I only have about 10 of them totaql, and I haven't even gotten a chance to play through most of them yet, the base game is just. that. big.
 
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TristramEvans

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A funny thing about some of the reviews I’ve read about the game play: I’ve seen several complaints that there are too many things to manage, that the sheets are too complex. That’s strange to me, perhaps I’m used to managing lots of stuff in RPGs, especially as a DM? KD’s rules seem a lot easier to me than, say, Arkham Horror or WFRP3e!

Yeah, I've previously explained it as "rules heavy for a boardgame, rules light for an RPG"

I'd probably put in on par with WHFRP 3rd edition.
 

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Whoo just shipped! I hope that the Duty fees won't be too harsh. The only option I was able to choose was "closest available warehouse" and it seems to be shipping from the USA.

According to a Duty fee calculator, just for the base game I probably won't pay more than 60$ (which is basically the taxes I would have paid anyway).

I was stunned at just how much stuff comes in the core game box. So many bosses!! And that freakin' Phoenix! Holy shit that's gonna look nice on the shelf...

My plan is that by next year's Black Friday sale I'll be ready to get a few more expansions (like the Gorm that you recommended).
 

Necrozius

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@TristramEvans , what are your thoughts on the SUSD video review posted earlier?

I don't have buyer's remorse or anything (my first serious RPG experience was WFRP 1st edition which was the epitome of random critical blood and shit-soaked underdog heroes), but was curious about some of the more negative aspects.

One thing I might do for one or two of my friends who HATE HATE HATE random failure, is to introduce a certain number of "Luck" points, as they introduced in Talisman, to mitigate the badness. A little.

It will help if I explain to them first that the character is really the Settlement; that they should look forward to the next generations that will be born...
 

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@TristramEvans , what are your thoughts on the SUSD video review posted earlier?

I don't have buyer's remorse or anything (my first serious RPG experience was WFRP 1st edition which was the epitome of random critical blood and shit-soaked underdog heroes), but was curious about some of the more negative aspects.

One thing I might do for one or two of my friends who HATE HATE HATE random failure, is to introduce a certain number of "Luck" points, as they introduced in Talisman, to mitigate the badness. A little.

It will help if I explain to them first that the character is really the Settlement; that they should look forward to the next generations that will be born...
Having played the game myself, I think you are better off taking the tack of the settlement being the main character rather than introducing Luck points. Characters aren't just going to be wrecked by combat. They can also be wrecked by events in the settlement. Having points that they can spend to invalidate events would undermine the game in a very substantial way.

Even without character's dying, players won't always be controlling the same characters anyway, so it would just make more sense to warn them not to get too attached to any one character. You'll soon have a whole roster of characters as you build a settlement.

I think Luck Points could actually backfire. Having a limited number early on is just going to create a false expectation that they can get attached to their character, only to have the game turn dark on them later. Better to have someone get maimed on the first hunt. Everyone understands the game before they get too attached.

It's like when I run B/X D&D for a new group. While I don't force the issue, I like there to be a PC death in the first session. The player makes a new character and everyone understands that death happens in the game, but the game keeps going. The death can actually make the character memorable.

The game is called Kingdom Death. Character deaths are part of the texture of the game. Looking back at the couple of times I played, the characters that first come to mind are the ones with the most colorful deaths. The lucky rollers who just squeaked along through hunts and events have faded away.
 

TristramEvans

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I really enjoy the SU & SD review; I like their reviews in general, even for games I have no interest in. I think he made fair points, but the issue is how much they matter to one personally. I think he ultimately hit the nail on the head in that KD is a game that embodies indulgence. It's over the top, excessive, taken to the extreme - and for some people that's a criticism, and for other people, that is what inspires this kind of obsessive love. It's creative gluttony. It's like stepping into an 80's Heavy Metal album cover, or wandering around Bosch's Garden of Earthly delights. If, like me, you're the type of person who is attracted to the Darkness, the void; who thrills inherently at the gothic and macabre, who gets more...fulfillment...from a good horror film than a light and sentimental romcom, than KD is going to speak directly to your heart.

SU&SD's review was on point in that the game is about horrible things happening to you, most beyond your control or comprehension, but yeah, I think you've got the best way to look at it - Kingdom Death isn't the story of any individual Survivor or group of "player characters" - the protagonist, as it were, is the tribe as a whole.

But as far as randomness - well, I'll compare it to Arkham Horror, the Cthulhu board game. That game I really dislike in comparison to the Call of Cthulhu RPG, because ultimately none of your choices matter. I'd say the randomness in KD is different - bad things will happen to you, but at the same time, your choices do matter. Your choices affect the story So while your survivor might end up being eaten by a Screaming Antelope, everything they did before that point shapes the Tribe and the course of events to follow. So, on the one hand, there is randomness to the horrors you encounter, I don't think the game itself I'd overall categorize as random. It's bleak, and vicious, and hits the amazingly unique balance of telling this grand story while keeping the PoV intimate and personal.

Anyways, yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with any of the criticisms made in the SU&SD review, but they simply aren't things that bother me. They are entirely outweighed by the experience, for me personally.
 

TristramEvans

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As for "luck points" ...well, I'd play a few times and get comfortable enough so that you know how to strategize, how to deal with what you are facing, before houseruling. I personally kinda think artificially trying to keep an individual survivor alive would sort of be missing the point. As I said, these aren't your protagonists.

IF you do want to give players more of an edge, I'd almost say that a better approach might be to let them see a monster's AI deck beforehand, so they have some idea of what they will be facing. This possibly takes a bit of suprise away, but it would reduce the learning curve.

I will mention though, one of the expansions in the Gambler's Chest, which is coming in Wave 3, deals with adding experienced hunters that have wandered from other tribes, so you can try the game in early years with very powerful Survivors. Knowing KD, there is probably going to be some black twist to that, and I don't think it's a coincidence that in the update that expansion was revealed the creator dropped the bombshell that your Survivors are actually monsters themselves, just like every other inhabitant of Kingdom Death, just ones know one knows the nature of yet,
 

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Great advice, thanks folks.

For the record, I also revel in the darkness of the overall theme and setting (I listen to Black Metal everyday, haha). I’m just a bit worried about some of my friends who have expressed interest. As long as they know that to expect in advance, I think they’ll be alright.

I like the idea of letting them browse the AI deck quickly before an encounter. Myself, I’d rather be surprised, haha
 

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Great advice, thanks folks.

For the record, I also revel in the darkness of the overall theme and setting (I listen to Black Metal everyday, haha). I’m just a bit worried about some of my friends who have expressed interest. As long as they know that to expect in advance, I think they’ll be alright.

I like the idea of letting them browse the AI deck quickly before an encounter. Myself, I’d rather be surprised, haha
This reminds me that we need a Black Metal boardgame stat. Hell I'm surprised there isn't a Black Metal ttrpg.

Edit to add: Correction, there are a Black Metal card game, boardgame and semi-boardgame.

Extra edit to add: actually looks like the BM boardgame failed to fund, too bad, it at least looked cool.

Aaaaandd one more edit to add: Of course there is a BM rpg just recently KS here.
 
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