Kits as equipment, how to handle them?

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Agentdenton

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I was kitting out a character in battlelords, and decided to buy him a basic survival kit. The kit was described in detail, listing every item in it, all of which were from the gear list and fully described.

I've seen survival kits in more abstract systems that simply had a cost and general weight, but they often just gave a positive modifier to survival rolls. That was all generally. Some had vague un statted content lists.

What option do people generally prefer for 'kit' type gear? Detailed contents or a modifier for certain rolls?
 
Both! As long as I don't have to write all the detailed stuff down. I tend to like the detail as items can have many different uses in the hands of a creative player.
 
I was kitting out a character in battlelords, and decided to buy him a basic survival kit. The kit was described in detail, listing every item in it, all of which were from the gear list and fully described.

I've seen survival kits in more abstract systems that simply had a cost and general weight, but they often just gave a positive modifier to survival rolls. That was all generally. Some had vague un statted content lists.

What option do people generally prefer for 'kit' type gear? Detailed contents or a modifier for certain rolls?

Unless you're in a setting where resource management is a key aspect (e.g. post-apocalyptic settings) I think trying to specify the details of a kit beyond '+2 to survival rolls' and '1 slot' or '3kg' is getting into too much bookkeeping. It's no skin off your nose to assume that the kit has anything you'd reasonably expect survival equipment to have, and even give the players some flexibility to make assumptions - yes, it probably has fishing line but probably doesn't have plastic explosive.

You can do stuff like:
Survival equipment: 1 slot, gives +2 to survival rolls.
Small toolkit: 1 slot, gives +2 to repair rolls, enables non-improvised repairs (i.e. more than just duct tape).
Lock pick set: 0 slots, Enables lock picking.
Mechanic's toolkit: 3 slots, enables complex repairs.
Electronic toolkit: 2 slots, enables repair of electronic equipment.
Shelter: 1 slot, allows liveable accommodations to be set up in wilderness.

This assumes you have mechanically significant concepts such as improvised repair, non-improvised repair or complex repairs.
 
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My general rule is: "You have the gear that a character of your training, background, and financial means can be expected to have."

Five Torches Deep has an interesting way of using stats and gold to abstract this. When you equip with Gear, there are two types of Gear: specified Gear and unspecified Gear (I am not using the terms from the rules, just making up terms which I think explain the concept). Unspecified Gear is like Quantum Gear - one unit of Unspecified Gear "turns into" one unit of Specified Gear which you have. So you can have 1 rope, 1 crowbar, 1 quiver of arrows, and 2 units of Unspecified Gear. When your crowbar breaks, you can just declare that one of your Unspecified Gear was actually a crowbar all along. But now you have only one unit of Unspecified Gear left, so if you run out of arrows *and* rope, you have a decision to make...

Your Strength determines how much Gear you can carry, your Intelligence determine show much Unspecified Gear you could have planned for, and your Gold determines how much Gear you can afford.

So you can be a smart guy who can plan for every eventuality, but can't carry it or afford it all, a jock who can haul a huge amount of stuff, but isn't very good at anticipating what might be needed. That's where teamwork comes in. Or you can hire a porter.
 
I think I prefer modifier, but I’ll add another half option - the gear allows you to do the thing. Like, you may have the skill, but without the gear, you have a knowledge skill, not a doing skill.

there is also the “at a penalty” option for going wihtout, but that’s just a bonus with a different base.
 
Most games, I assume a basic set of gear is something any adventurer has, if its not a straight up adventure game, I consider what an appropriate for a character in that setting/situation, example: What has a teen have in their pockets? School backpack?
 
What option do people generally prefer for 'kit' type gear? Detailed contents or a modifier for certain rolls?


I prefer an abstracted approach to kits at the table in most cases. Abstracted gear kits imply PCs are professionals who pack their kit in anticipation of typical challenges. Bookkeeping is kept to minimum and it assumes a measure of GM-PC trust. In most cases, possession of a kit doesn't provide a bonus but allows one to perform a relevant task. Without the right tools, attempts have a penalty and may even be impossible

Thieves' Tools, 1 slot

I don't care for the granular approach at the table but I am a huge nerd who loves detailing his game worlds sometimes keep more detailed information on the GM side even if it is highly unlikely to come up in game. This is the kind of information I keep on Google Drive or One Note and not my ready table notes.

Thieves' Tools (file, oil dropper, picks, pincers, skeleton keys, small hammer, small saw, small wedge, wire), 3lbs
 
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Five Torches Deep has an interesting way of using stats and gold to abstract this.
The Five Torches Deep approach has a lot of potential- have you had a chance to see how it plays out at the table?
 
I gotta be honest, the older I get the less patience I have for excessive complexity and bookkeeping, and even back when I was a kid I didn't always keep track of a lot of stuff, unless it was consumables or stuff I thought you just had to specify and couldn't conveniently claim that you had, like a rope, torches, rations (just the fact you had rations, not what type of food), etc. Usually I just assume the kit has all the tools you need for the job and if you don't have them you can't do the task, or get a penalty if it's possible without skill. Bonuses are usually for higher quality tools.

A lot of times I don't even know what specific tools are used for certain technical jobs IRL, so trying to keep track of them and be specific would be pointless in game.
 
I'm big on resource management myself, but since I don't often do hardcore survival scenarios, I'm happy to go with the general GURPS approach. Here's the basic kit (cost, weight, bulk, and a precis of what's included) for X, without which there are hefty minuses to using the skill. Here's the comprehensive kit (cost, weight, bulk, and a brief precis of what's included) for X, which gives you +1 to use the skill.

But sure, it depends. For a startup Twilight 2000 campaign in the mid-80s, I was the party's commander, and the "group equipment list" went several laboriously detailed and itemized pages. I took much of a week over compiling it, after soliciting the other players for how much $ they were contributing to the group kitty. That's certainly an extreme example, but we also had a hardcore GM whom we knew would not be forgiving to carelessness.
 
The Five Torches Deep approach has a lot of potential- have you had a chance to see how it plays out at the table?

I have. I ran a 17-session campaign of Barrowmaze using 5TD, using the mechanics to lean heavily into the dungeon-crawl aspect.


I re-read the rules last night and realised that I might have been playing it wrongly, but I am happy with the way we played it.

I further simplified the system by having 1 Supply weigh 1 Load and cost 1 Gold (Gold being worth about $100 in our money - they were getting their supplies through the Guild, which marks everything up; and for small but delicate items the Load represents the extra care and padding required to carry the stuff).

Also, I had loot expressed as Loads too - PCs won't know how much their loot is worth until they get back tot he Guild to have it assessed. I forget the formula, but it was like X Hit Dice/CR worth of monsters produced Y Loads of loot, with 1 Load = 1d20 Gold, and 1 Gold = Z XPs. Rolling for the valuation was always a fun part of the session.

There was a whole conversion economy going on there...

My main criticism of 5TF is the limited spell list, but you can take the Supply and Return mechanisms from the rules and apply it with most D&D-like systems.
 
I generally prefer pretty broad, pretty vague kits that give you the bonus to skill checks... and then, if you want something more specific at a moment's notice, the kit contains what you can convince me it contains-- subject to genre. I'm easy. I am deliberately really really easy.

I really, really like that specific/unspecific gear concept, and tying it to STR and INT (or equivalent) scores.
 
I like shopping. Just not in my games.
Even when it comes to treasure, I get tired of tracking how much gold, what magic items, what I'm allowed to use when.

So in a game, I prefer abstractions that make my ability to play easier. The Supplies resistance in Heart. The consumption model used in Diogo's games. The handwaving method in Trophy where you assumed to have what you generally need, but if you want a bonus or your environment demands something very specific, you have to use a written-down resource.

Roleplaying should be about playing the character. Not playing their stuff.

Then again, the system I built for Big Bad Badges is all about your stuff. But not in a nitpicky way. More of a "clothes make the man" kinda way.
 
I think I would flip the question around and ask how does the GM intend to handle resolution of equipment based issues?

In old school D&D whether you have a bag of flour, or a mirror, or some marbles is all very important because they are specific things to leverage for problem solving. (This is why the old school complaint of modern players 'looking at their character sheets' never made sense to me. All that changed was the part of the character sheet that was looked at more.)

If you intend to handle things on a large more abstract scale, then I think there's no reason equipment also can't be generally abstract.

Ie if you are going to handle climbing a ridge as a single climbing roll, then you don't need to know if the PC has an ice axes or pitons, you just need to know they get a bonus for assorted climbing gear.
 
We almost always lose our kit near the start of adventures and scavenging and ambush become very important. Something that can be adapted into a shiv causes tears of joy.
 
In old school D&D whether you have a bag of flour, or a mirror, or some marbles is all very important because they are specific things to leverage for problem solving. (This is why the old school complaint of modern players 'looking at their character sheets' never made sense to me. All that changed was the part of the character sheet that was looked at more.)

Different topic, but this one of the things I don't like about OSR rationalizations about the perceived superiority of their play style or key elements that define "old school" play ("rulingz, not rulez!"). Seems like cloud gazing and confirmation bias, and uncharitable interpretations of differing play styles or elements to me.

EDIT/PS: That being said I don't have a problem with incorporating elements of this into play. Creative use of certain items to uncover traps or spot invisible enemies (bag of flour), and similar things enhances play. But they don't necessarily have to be done in place of other game elements (like skills), but rather to supplement them or bypass lacking them.
 
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This discussion is highlighting one the issues I end up having with modern and SF games - the much larger breadth of equipment an "adventurer" might want.

One thing to do some reading up on for exploration adventures in modern times is how much gear people take. Like cavers going down to Mexico for an expedition may pack a tractor trailer truck or a shipping container. I've seen pictures of front lawns laid out like a yard sale during equipment organization and packing. Look at the convoys of Land Rovers and how loaded they are for African expeditions. Look at how many support personnel accompany these expeditions. If you're not doing that, probably any packing list for a back packing trip will suffice for most lighter expeditions. Find a list and keep it handy. Purchase a few additional specialized pieces of equipment beyond that if it makes sense for the expedition. If you're doing OSR style puzzle solving and an issue arises, pull out the packing list. Now you're down to purchasing and tracking fewer than 10 items.

I also had a though about consumables for D&D style adventuring (might be modern eras too, depending on the game). If your expedition got decent treasure, assume it was actually a bit more than tallied up and that covers all the (cheap) consumables. Track the consumables to the extent you need, but don't keep spending time on replacing. Now if your expedition was a bust? Yea, you're going to have to problem solve what to replace and how. I actually sort of did this with my Traveller campaign. Purchase and account for in encumbrance the amount of ammo you want to have.
 
"However you like":grin:?

Seriously, I doubt that it is such a crucial matter, as long as the group has a consensus how it works.

For me? Tell me what kind of kit you're buying, rough list of contents, and I'd allow it within reason. Of course, I'd probably give you bonuses or penalties depending on what you bought, because I'm yet to see a first aid kit that has both something to treat injuries and something to prevent or cure issues with your stomach. And activated coal doesn't help stemming blood flow, nor does wounds disinfectant help you purifying water for drinking.
But buy a full-on medical kit, and I'm fine with it having a forceps on top of those. The only drawbacks are price and weight:thumbsup:.

OTOH, I'm fine with kits being "+2 to First Aid rolls and allowing you to do X" (like "disinfecting wounds to prevent a check", as an example of something that would be tough without any medecine). We can leave the rest to improvisation, if everybody is fine with that.
 
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